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On April 13 2012 00:38 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 00:31 Fubi wrote:On April 13 2012 00:20 MONXY FIST wrote:
Have people ever thought that the reason we just don't have a player of Flash caliber is simply that the players are not good enough? We had very inconsistent players in BW to. There was fluke winners who would win a starleague and fall down into mediocrity. There were players who were proleague monsters but failed in proleague. Even Flash has fallen early in starleagues.Hell SAVIOR struggled to qualify for on starleague at his peak.
You ever thought that maybe the inconsistency was the fact that tournaments are more frequent? Therefore increasing the chances of a player having a bad season? Or maybe its the fact that korean players are flying all over the place when you travel so much it can take a toll on a person. Starcraft 2 players in general practice less then BW players. The SC2 Scene is different then the BW scene in more ways then just the game they play. We have had multiple winners multiple runners ups we have players who are heavy favorites etc. You can tell the top players from the mediocre and that's whats important. But when it happens so often, like in SC2 (literally every season, can happen to every one including top4's from previous), then it just creates a sense of randomness and volatility for the spectators. It's bad for sponsorship too; should we dedicate money to sponsor this player when there is a decent chance that he'll just fall off early on in the next season? Probably not. As far as the "top4 from previous" comment goes, the fact that in OSLs the semifinalists are seeded into the Ro16, and the Ro16 from last season n.i. the top 4 are seeded into the Ro24 probably helps with consistency between seasons. The format in GSL has it so that it's deliberately very hard to be consistent, because at the end of last year that's what all the feedback we gave them said - more chances for up-and-coming players to rise up, more chances for the older generation (Ensnare et al) to fall.
SeaSwift, you're arguing with people that probably never watched BW or know about OSL seedings, they're just spewing out nonsense for the sake of having an argument.
The fact of the matter is, Code S is really, really hard. SC2 has been out for a year and a half. Making comparisons to Federer in tennis, who has been dominating for years upon years, makes about as much sense as a fifth grader trying to do calculus. Use your freaking brains guys.
GSL format makes it so hard to be consistent, that's why MVP's, Nestea's, and MC's runs of dominance where so heralded, because it's just so hard to do that. MMA has been KNOWN to have skaky TvP. He lost. Leenock has some of the best ZvT in the world, how is him beating MMA evidence of SC2 skill ceiling or randomness? Yes, MMA is the best TvZ player in the world at his best, but Leenock played arguably the most skilled ZvT in his GSL finals vs JJakji that we've ever seen. People are so quick to discredit players just because their favorites lose, and don't want to watch SC2 to see good game play, they want to watch to see their favorites win every time.
This is like me saying, "OMG FLASH LOST TWICE IN PL IN THE SAME SERIES! BW IS RANDOM! NO SKILL CEILING!"
Like, seriously?
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I don't see why Starcraft 2 cannot have consistent domination from 1 player.
MVP already did it, until his health issues got worse.
We will see someone else dominate, 2 years is still an incredibly short time.
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On April 12 2012 21:50 Fubi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 21:49 FidoDido wrote:On April 12 2012 21:48 Fubi wrote:On April 12 2012 21:45 Doublemint wrote:On April 12 2012 21:43 Yello wrote:On April 12 2012 21:42 Asha` wrote:
Race distribution so far
5 P
5 T
2 Z
come on zergs TT
5 P out of 6 5 T out of 12 2 Z out of 6 Protoss a lot more successful this season Thank god, they deserve it. They haven´t done well for ages in the GSL. Gonna be GomPvP in a few seasons at this rate. Rather quit watching than spend my money to watch rock paper scissors by then. in a few seasons hots will be out and there will be more reason to watch GSL (to learn new strats). It's not even in beta yet, and beta will usually last for another 3-6 months. =\
Not if Activision can help it!
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On April 13 2012 00:31 Fubi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 00:20 MONXY FIST wrote:
Have people ever thought that the reason we just don't have a player of Flash caliber is simply that the players are not good enough? We had very inconsistent players in BW to. There was fluke winners who would win a starleague and fall down into mediocrity. There were players who were proleague monsters but failed in proleague. Even Flash has fallen early in starleagues.Hell SAVIOR struggled to qualify for on starleague at his peak.
You ever thought that maybe the inconsistency was the fact that tournaments are more frequent? Therefore increasing the chances of a player having a bad season? Or maybe its the fact that korean players are flying all over the place when you travel so much it can take a toll on a person. Starcraft 2 players in general practice less then BW players. The SC2 Scene is different then the BW scene in more ways then just the game they play. We have had multiple winners multiple runners ups we have players who are heavy favorites etc. You can tell the top players from the mediocre and that's whats important. Yea it's definitely a possibility as well, that the players in general just aren't good enough (at least not yet). The difference between BW and SC2 is, upsets happen not too often, so that when it does, it actually adds excitement and surprise factors to the game. And this is true in every other sports too, upsets happens here and there and that's what makes it fun. It is rare in NBA or NHL that an 8th seed beats 1st in the playoff, but when it does happen, it is actually a fun shock. But when it happens so often, like in SC2 (literally every season, can happen to every one including top4's from previous), then it just creates a sense of randomness and volatility for the spectators. It's bad for sponsorship too; should we dedicate money to sponsor this player when there is a decent chance that he'll just fall off early on in the next season? Probably not.
Yes, it's rare for an 8th seed to beat a 1st seed, but those are best of 7's over the span of a couple weeks. In a single game, however, anyone can win. Would the Giants have beat the Packers in a best of 7 last season? Maybe, but their chances are lower.
So here are a few other possible reasons for the inconsistency you're talking about. It could be because it moves to a playoff style system without any league matches to speak of. In fact, it's not a league at all. It's a tournament more similar to the FIFA World Cup, in which there are generally upsets every time (Ghana beating the US in the first round, Italy falling to Slovakia and dropping out in the group stages, France losing to Senegal, etc). Is this a problem? Well, I'm willing to bet that viewership would go down if they changed it to a league system (or more specifically, down for the league matches but very like up for the playoffs...equaling a net loss in viewership over the season).
It could be simply because of parity between players. Realistically, this is a good thing because it means that we'll see more quality games.
As for sponsorship, I disagree with you. If companies are only willing to sponsor the 1 or 2 players that are winning every single game, that means those couple players get rich while everyone else can only practice part time because they've had to take jobs to survive. That really isn't a healthy environment. Generally what happens instead is that sponsorship money goes to teams, which helps to mitigate risk. The players get a constant source of income (even if it's only room and board) while the companies hopefully get at least one of the players on the team to have a good run. So Jjakji and MMA didn't make it, but maybe Puzzle will. On top of that, they represent their sponsors in more tournaments than just the GSL.
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On April 13 2012 01:27 poorcloud wrote:
I don't see why Starcraft 2 cannot have consistent domination from 1 player.
MVP already did it, until his health issues got worse.
We will see someone else dominate, 2 years is still an incredibly short time.
Like a lot of pros say, this game isn't very good. It's too easy to lose to a worse player for their to be domination from one guy.
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lol people saying its going to be GomPvP after two days or GSL.
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On April 13 2012 01:40 xrapture wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 01:27 poorcloud wrote:
I don't see why Starcraft 2 cannot have consistent domination from 1 player.
MVP already did it, until his health issues got worse.
We will see someone else dominate, 2 years is still an incredibly short time. Like a lot of pros say, this game isn't very good. It's too easy to lose to a worse player for their to be domination from one guy.
Funny how not many of those pros are having success at the moment... it's almost like they are biased or something.
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On April 13 2012 01:44 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 01:40 xrapture wrote:On April 13 2012 01:27 poorcloud wrote:
I don't see why Starcraft 2 cannot have consistent domination from 1 player.
MVP already did it, until his health issues got worse.
We will see someone else dominate, 2 years is still an incredibly short time. Like a lot of pros say, this game isn't very good. It's too easy to lose to a worse player for their to be domination from one guy. Funny how not many of those pros are having success at the moment... it's almost like they are biased or something.
Exactly this. The only pros I've heard say that are Idra, Jinro and Tyler. Surprisingly none of them have been relevant for quite a while..
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On April 13 2012 01:24 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 00:38 SeaSwift wrote:On April 13 2012 00:31 Fubi wrote:On April 13 2012 00:20 MONXY FIST wrote:
Have people ever thought that the reason we just don't have a player of Flash caliber is simply that the players are not good enough? We had very inconsistent players in BW to. There was fluke winners who would win a starleague and fall down into mediocrity. There were players who were proleague monsters but failed in proleague. Even Flash has fallen early in starleagues.Hell SAVIOR struggled to qualify for on starleague at his peak.
You ever thought that maybe the inconsistency was the fact that tournaments are more frequent? Therefore increasing the chances of a player having a bad season? Or maybe its the fact that korean players are flying all over the place when you travel so much it can take a toll on a person. Starcraft 2 players in general practice less then BW players. The SC2 Scene is different then the BW scene in more ways then just the game they play. We have had multiple winners multiple runners ups we have players who are heavy favorites etc. You can tell the top players from the mediocre and that's whats important. But when it happens so often, like in SC2 (literally every season, can happen to every one including top4's from previous), then it just creates a sense of randomness and volatility for the spectators. It's bad for sponsorship too; should we dedicate money to sponsor this player when there is a decent chance that he'll just fall off early on in the next season? Probably not. As far as the "top4 from previous" comment goes, the fact that in OSLs the semifinalists are seeded into the Ro16, and the Ro16 from last season n.i. the top 4 are seeded into the Ro24 probably helps with consistency between seasons. The format in GSL has it so that it's deliberately very hard to be consistent, because at the end of last year that's what all the feedback we gave them said - more chances for up-and-coming players to rise up, more chances for the older generation (Ensnare et al) to fall. SeaSwift, you're arguing with people that probably never watched BW or know about OSL seedings, they're just spewing out nonsense for the sake of having an argument. The fact of the matter is, Code S is really, really hard. SC2 has been out for a year and a half. Making comparisons to Federer in tennis, who has been dominating for years upon years, makes about as much sense as a fifth grader trying to do calculus. Use your freaking brains guys. GSL format makes it so hard to be consistent, that's why MVP's, Nestea's, and MC's runs of dominance where so heralded, because it's just so hard to do that. MMA has been KNOWN to have skaky TvP. He lost. Leenock has some of the best ZvT in the world, how is him beating MMA evidence of SC2 skill ceiling or randomness? Yes, MMA is the best TvZ player in the world at his best, but Leenock played arguably the most skilled ZvT in his GSL finals vs JJakji that we've ever seen. People are so quick to discredit players just because their favorites lose, and don't want to watch SC2 to see good game play, they want to watch to see their favorites win every time. This is like me saying, "OMG FLASH LOST TWICE IN PL IN THE SAME SERIES! BW IS RANDOM! NO SKILL CEILING!" Like, seriously?
Pretty sure I've started watching BW before you were even born.
And you're supporting exactly what I'm trying to say: that BW has been more consistent in terms of it's top players, and the fact that when upset actually happens (such as flash losing), it's ACTUALLY a shocker, not something that we can go "meh, happens every season, no big deal". BW is like every other sport, you don't always get the same person winning the trophy, but for the most part, the top tier players will be the ones advancing forward; and when they don't it's actually a real shocker. The fact that Federer can dominate for so long, so consistently, due to his pure skills, further proves that Tennis has a system and is balanced (multiple sets, multiple games per set, 4 points per game, etc) and measures skills almost perfectly.
SC2 on the other hand, doesn't do this. And you exactly nailed one of the reason right now: the tournament format. It doesn't allow for consistency, because it is VERY easy to lose 1-2 sets of Bo3 in SC2, where the game is all about death-balling your army, and making one mistake can be the end of the game. It's almost like watching a basketball game that only lasts 5mins, and so whoever misses the first shot will lose.
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On April 13 2012 01:59 Fubi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 01:24 Flonomenalz wrote:On April 13 2012 00:38 SeaSwift wrote:On April 13 2012 00:31 Fubi wrote:On April 13 2012 00:20 MONXY FIST wrote:
Have people ever thought that the reason we just don't have a player of Flash caliber is simply that the players are not good enough? We had very inconsistent players in BW to. There was fluke winners who would win a starleague and fall down into mediocrity. There were players who were proleague monsters but failed in proleague. Even Flash has fallen early in starleagues.Hell SAVIOR struggled to qualify for on starleague at his peak.
You ever thought that maybe the inconsistency was the fact that tournaments are more frequent? Therefore increasing the chances of a player having a bad season? Or maybe its the fact that korean players are flying all over the place when you travel so much it can take a toll on a person. Starcraft 2 players in general practice less then BW players. The SC2 Scene is different then the BW scene in more ways then just the game they play. We have had multiple winners multiple runners ups we have players who are heavy favorites etc. You can tell the top players from the mediocre and that's whats important. But when it happens so often, like in SC2 (literally every season, can happen to every one including top4's from previous), then it just creates a sense of randomness and volatility for the spectators. It's bad for sponsorship too; should we dedicate money to sponsor this player when there is a decent chance that he'll just fall off early on in the next season? Probably not. As far as the "top4 from previous" comment goes, the fact that in OSLs the semifinalists are seeded into the Ro16, and the Ro16 from last season n.i. the top 4 are seeded into the Ro24 probably helps with consistency between seasons. The format in GSL has it so that it's deliberately very hard to be consistent, because at the end of last year that's what all the feedback we gave them said - more chances for up-and-coming players to rise up, more chances for the older generation (Ensnare et al) to fall. SeaSwift, you're arguing with people that probably never watched BW or know about OSL seedings, they're just spewing out nonsense for the sake of having an argument. The fact of the matter is, Code S is really, really hard. SC2 has been out for a year and a half. Making comparisons to Federer in tennis, who has been dominating for years upon years, makes about as much sense as a fifth grader trying to do calculus. Use your freaking brains guys. GSL format makes it so hard to be consistent, that's why MVP's, Nestea's, and MC's runs of dominance where so heralded, because it's just so hard to do that. MMA has been KNOWN to have skaky TvP. He lost. Leenock has some of the best ZvT in the world, how is him beating MMA evidence of SC2 skill ceiling or randomness? Yes, MMA is the best TvZ player in the world at his best, but Leenock played arguably the most skilled ZvT in his GSL finals vs JJakji that we've ever seen. People are so quick to discredit players just because their favorites lose, and don't want to watch SC2 to see good game play, they want to watch to see their favorites win every time. This is like me saying, "OMG FLASH LOST TWICE IN PL IN THE SAME SERIES! BW IS RANDOM! NO SKILL CEILING!" Like, seriously? Pretty sure I've started watching BW before you were even born. And you're supporting exactly what I'm trying to say: that BW has been more consistent in terms of it's top players, and the fact that when upset actually happens (such as flash losing), it's ACTUALLY a shocker, not something that we can go "meh, happens every season, no big deal". BW is like every other sport, you don't always get the same person winning the trophy, but for the most part, the top tier players will be the ones advancing forward; and when they don't it's actually a real shocker. The fact that Federer can dominate for so long, so consistently, due to his pure skills, further proves that Tennis has a system and is balanced (multiple sets, multiple games per set, 4 points per game, etc) and measures skills almost perfectly. SC2 on the other hand, doesn't do this. And you exactly nailed one of the reason right now: the tournament format. It doesn't allow for consistency, because it is VERY easy to lose 1-2 sets of Bo3 in SC2, where the game is all about death-balling your army, and making one mistake can be the end of the game. It's almost like watching a basketball game that only lasts 5mins, and so whoever misses the first shot will lose.
What SC2 are you watching where every game is about deathballing your army? Not anymore... not even close.
In BW one mistake can lose you the game as well, I don't know when this became exclusive to SC2.
The fact that Federer and Flash dominate so much is less about the game and more about them being THAT good. At one point in SC2, Nestea, MVP, and MC were THAT far ahead of everyone else. But it is a young game, and people catch up. People are making hasty generalizations compared to games/sports that have been going on for a much longer time frame.
Sheesh.
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On April 13 2012 02:05 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 01:59 Fubi wrote:On April 13 2012 01:24 Flonomenalz wrote:On April 13 2012 00:38 SeaSwift wrote:On April 13 2012 00:31 Fubi wrote:On April 13 2012 00:20 MONXY FIST wrote:
Have people ever thought that the reason we just don't have a player of Flash caliber is simply that the players are not good enough? We had very inconsistent players in BW to. There was fluke winners who would win a starleague and fall down into mediocrity. There were players who were proleague monsters but failed in proleague. Even Flash has fallen early in starleagues.Hell SAVIOR struggled to qualify for on starleague at his peak.
You ever thought that maybe the inconsistency was the fact that tournaments are more frequent? Therefore increasing the chances of a player having a bad season? Or maybe its the fact that korean players are flying all over the place when you travel so much it can take a toll on a person. Starcraft 2 players in general practice less then BW players. The SC2 Scene is different then the BW scene in more ways then just the game they play. We have had multiple winners multiple runners ups we have players who are heavy favorites etc. You can tell the top players from the mediocre and that's whats important. But when it happens so often, like in SC2 (literally every season, can happen to every one including top4's from previous), then it just creates a sense of randomness and volatility for the spectators. It's bad for sponsorship too; should we dedicate money to sponsor this player when there is a decent chance that he'll just fall off early on in the next season? Probably not. As far as the "top4 from previous" comment goes, the fact that in OSLs the semifinalists are seeded into the Ro16, and the Ro16 from last season n.i. the top 4 are seeded into the Ro24 probably helps with consistency between seasons. The format in GSL has it so that it's deliberately very hard to be consistent, because at the end of last year that's what all the feedback we gave them said - more chances for up-and-coming players to rise up, more chances for the older generation (Ensnare et al) to fall. SeaSwift, you're arguing with people that probably never watched BW or know about OSL seedings, they're just spewing out nonsense for the sake of having an argument. The fact of the matter is, Code S is really, really hard. SC2 has been out for a year and a half. Making comparisons to Federer in tennis, who has been dominating for years upon years, makes about as much sense as a fifth grader trying to do calculus. Use your freaking brains guys. GSL format makes it so hard to be consistent, that's why MVP's, Nestea's, and MC's runs of dominance where so heralded, because it's just so hard to do that. MMA has been KNOWN to have skaky TvP. He lost. Leenock has some of the best ZvT in the world, how is him beating MMA evidence of SC2 skill ceiling or randomness? Yes, MMA is the best TvZ player in the world at his best, but Leenock played arguably the most skilled ZvT in his GSL finals vs JJakji that we've ever seen. People are so quick to discredit players just because their favorites lose, and don't want to watch SC2 to see good game play, they want to watch to see their favorites win every time. This is like me saying, "OMG FLASH LOST TWICE IN PL IN THE SAME SERIES! BW IS RANDOM! NO SKILL CEILING!" Like, seriously? Pretty sure I've started watching BW before you were even born. And you're supporting exactly what I'm trying to say: that BW has been more consistent in terms of it's top players, and the fact that when upset actually happens (such as flash losing), it's ACTUALLY a shocker, not something that we can go "meh, happens every season, no big deal". BW is like every other sport, you don't always get the same person winning the trophy, but for the most part, the top tier players will be the ones advancing forward; and when they don't it's actually a real shocker. The fact that Federer can dominate for so long, so consistently, due to his pure skills, further proves that Tennis has a system and is balanced (multiple sets, multiple games per set, 4 points per game, etc) and measures skills almost perfectly. SC2 on the other hand, doesn't do this. And you exactly nailed one of the reason right now: the tournament format. It doesn't allow for consistency, because it is VERY easy to lose 1-2 sets of Bo3 in SC2, where the game is all about death-balling your army, and making one mistake can be the end of the game. It's almost like watching a basketball game that only lasts 5mins, and so whoever misses the first shot will lose. What SC2 are you watching where every game is about deathballing your army? Not anymore... not even close. In BW one mistake can lose you the game as well, I don't know when this became exclusive to SC2. The fact that Federer and Flash dominate so much is less about the game and more about them being THAT good. At one point in SC2, Nestea, MVP, and MC were THAT far ahead of everyone else. But it is a young game, and people catch up. People are making hasty generalizations compared to games/sports that have been going on for a much longer time frame. Sheesh.
Aside from fast ending games, it's still pretty much deathballing your army, unless you're counting small drops and random harass here and there as not death-balling, then yea I guess you're right. The only time you wouldn't want to death-ball your army is probably in TvZ where T spreads out his tanks/bio. Yes in BW, one mistake can lose you the game as well, but by comparison, BW has way more spread-out epic battle that can spand half the map and lasts way longer as well.
As for being a young game, you have to also consider that most of the mechanics from BW transfers over too, it's not like people are learning how to pump workers or micro from scratch when SC2 came out. It's been a year and a half now even not counting BW, and the question is, does the volatility seem to be going down? In my opinion, it hasn't changed, if anything getting worst. At least we had a glimps of consistency in MVP/Nestea back then, but now it just feels like it's all over the place.
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YES THANK U SEEKER! WARTORTLE FIGHTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WIN GSL EVOLVE BLASTOISE GOGO!!!!!!
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On April 13 2012 02:05 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 01:59 Fubi wrote:On April 13 2012 01:24 Flonomenalz wrote:On April 13 2012 00:38 SeaSwift wrote:On April 13 2012 00:31 Fubi wrote:On April 13 2012 00:20 MONXY FIST wrote:
Have people ever thought that the reason we just don't have a player of Flash caliber is simply that the players are not good enough? We had very inconsistent players in BW to. There was fluke winners who would win a starleague and fall down into mediocrity. There were players who were proleague monsters but failed in proleague. Even Flash has fallen early in starleagues.Hell SAVIOR struggled to qualify for on starleague at his peak.
You ever thought that maybe the inconsistency was the fact that tournaments are more frequent? Therefore increasing the chances of a player having a bad season? Or maybe its the fact that korean players are flying all over the place when you travel so much it can take a toll on a person. Starcraft 2 players in general practice less then BW players. The SC2 Scene is different then the BW scene in more ways then just the game they play. We have had multiple winners multiple runners ups we have players who are heavy favorites etc. You can tell the top players from the mediocre and that's whats important. But when it happens so often, like in SC2 (literally every season, can happen to every one including top4's from previous), then it just creates a sense of randomness and volatility for the spectators. It's bad for sponsorship too; should we dedicate money to sponsor this player when there is a decent chance that he'll just fall off early on in the next season? Probably not. As far as the "top4 from previous" comment goes, the fact that in OSLs the semifinalists are seeded into the Ro16, and the Ro16 from last season n.i. the top 4 are seeded into the Ro24 probably helps with consistency between seasons. The format in GSL has it so that it's deliberately very hard to be consistent, because at the end of last year that's what all the feedback we gave them said - more chances for up-and-coming players to rise up, more chances for the older generation (Ensnare et al) to fall. SeaSwift, you're arguing with people that probably never watched BW or know about OSL seedings, they're just spewing out nonsense for the sake of having an argument. The fact of the matter is, Code S is really, really hard. SC2 has been out for a year and a half. Making comparisons to Federer in tennis, who has been dominating for years upon years, makes about as much sense as a fifth grader trying to do calculus. Use your freaking brains guys. GSL format makes it so hard to be consistent, that's why MVP's, Nestea's, and MC's runs of dominance where so heralded, because it's just so hard to do that. MMA has been KNOWN to have skaky TvP. He lost. Leenock has some of the best ZvT in the world, how is him beating MMA evidence of SC2 skill ceiling or randomness? Yes, MMA is the best TvZ player in the world at his best, but Leenock played arguably the most skilled ZvT in his GSL finals vs JJakji that we've ever seen. People are so quick to discredit players just because their favorites lose, and don't want to watch SC2 to see good game play, they want to watch to see their favorites win every time. This is like me saying, "OMG FLASH LOST TWICE IN PL IN THE SAME SERIES! BW IS RANDOM! NO SKILL CEILING!" Like, seriously? Pretty sure I've started watching BW before you were even born. And you're supporting exactly what I'm trying to say: that BW has been more consistent in terms of it's top players, and the fact that when upset actually happens (such as flash losing), it's ACTUALLY a shocker, not something that we can go "meh, happens every season, no big deal". BW is like every other sport, you don't always get the same person winning the trophy, but for the most part, the top tier players will be the ones advancing forward; and when they don't it's actually a real shocker. The fact that Federer can dominate for so long, so consistently, due to his pure skills, further proves that Tennis has a system and is balanced (multiple sets, multiple games per set, 4 points per game, etc) and measures skills almost perfectly. SC2 on the other hand, doesn't do this. And you exactly nailed one of the reason right now: the tournament format. It doesn't allow for consistency, because it is VERY easy to lose 1-2 sets of Bo3 in SC2, where the game is all about death-balling your army, and making one mistake can be the end of the game. It's almost like watching a basketball game that only lasts 5mins, and so whoever misses the first shot will lose. What SC2 are you watching where every game is about deathballing your army? Not anymore... not even close. In BW one mistake can lose you the game as well, I don't know when this became exclusive to SC2. The fact that Federer and Flash dominate so much is less about the game and more about them being THAT good. At one point in SC2, Nestea, MVP, and MC were THAT far ahead of everyone else. But it is a young game, and people catch up. People are making hasty generalizations compared to games/sports that have been going on for a much longer time frame. Sheesh.
Stop comparing BW to SC2, it's like comparing Chess to Checkers. People can bleet on about how SC2 is new and people are still figuring out the game but honestly how many game changing innovations have their been? TvP has been MMMVG forever. 1-1-1 fell out of favor mostly due to balance changes and not anyone figuring it out. TvZ has been MMM Tank since forever. Zerg's finally started using infestors and actually getting their Tier3, I guess, some pretty intense innovation there (even though destiny had been doing it since forever, no one took him seriously though). Protoss found out that chargelots are better than stalkers and that having both collosus and high temps is pretty stronk. Biggest game play change out of protoss was the decrease in 4 gate usage (thanks to patches). The game is pretty stagnant. The strategies we see now are pretty reminiscient of the strategies from a year ago. Doesn't look like anything is going to change drastically until HOTS comes out.
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France12904 Posts
Infestors started to get used only after the massive buff, except couple of times against mech (Stephano vs Strelok jungle bassin :D).
I'm sad that MMA is out but glad that Squirtle is through, and I'm ok with Leenock he deserves it.
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On April 13 2012 03:05 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 02:05 Flonomenalz wrote:On April 13 2012 01:59 Fubi wrote:On April 13 2012 01:24 Flonomenalz wrote:On April 13 2012 00:38 SeaSwift wrote:On April 13 2012 00:31 Fubi wrote:On April 13 2012 00:20 MONXY FIST wrote:
Have people ever thought that the reason we just don't have a player of Flash caliber is simply that the players are not good enough? We had very inconsistent players in BW to. There was fluke winners who would win a starleague and fall down into mediocrity. There were players who were proleague monsters but failed in proleague. Even Flash has fallen early in starleagues.Hell SAVIOR struggled to qualify for on starleague at his peak.
You ever thought that maybe the inconsistency was the fact that tournaments are more frequent? Therefore increasing the chances of a player having a bad season? Or maybe its the fact that korean players are flying all over the place when you travel so much it can take a toll on a person. Starcraft 2 players in general practice less then BW players. The SC2 Scene is different then the BW scene in more ways then just the game they play. We have had multiple winners multiple runners ups we have players who are heavy favorites etc. You can tell the top players from the mediocre and that's whats important. But when it happens so often, like in SC2 (literally every season, can happen to every one including top4's from previous), then it just creates a sense of randomness and volatility for the spectators. It's bad for sponsorship too; should we dedicate money to sponsor this player when there is a decent chance that he'll just fall off early on in the next season? Probably not. As far as the "top4 from previous" comment goes, the fact that in OSLs the semifinalists are seeded into the Ro16, and the Ro16 from last season n.i. the top 4 are seeded into the Ro24 probably helps with consistency between seasons. The format in GSL has it so that it's deliberately very hard to be consistent, because at the end of last year that's what all the feedback we gave them said - more chances for up-and-coming players to rise up, more chances for the older generation (Ensnare et al) to fall. SeaSwift, you're arguing with people that probably never watched BW or know about OSL seedings, they're just spewing out nonsense for the sake of having an argument. The fact of the matter is, Code S is really, really hard. SC2 has been out for a year and a half. Making comparisons to Federer in tennis, who has been dominating for years upon years, makes about as much sense as a fifth grader trying to do calculus. Use your freaking brains guys. GSL format makes it so hard to be consistent, that's why MVP's, Nestea's, and MC's runs of dominance where so heralded, because it's just so hard to do that. MMA has been KNOWN to have skaky TvP. He lost. Leenock has some of the best ZvT in the world, how is him beating MMA evidence of SC2 skill ceiling or randomness? Yes, MMA is the best TvZ player in the world at his best, but Leenock played arguably the most skilled ZvT in his GSL finals vs JJakji that we've ever seen. People are so quick to discredit players just because their favorites lose, and don't want to watch SC2 to see good game play, they want to watch to see their favorites win every time. This is like me saying, "OMG FLASH LOST TWICE IN PL IN THE SAME SERIES! BW IS RANDOM! NO SKILL CEILING!" Like, seriously? Pretty sure I've started watching BW before you were even born. And you're supporting exactly what I'm trying to say: that BW has been more consistent in terms of it's top players, and the fact that when upset actually happens (such as flash losing), it's ACTUALLY a shocker, not something that we can go "meh, happens every season, no big deal". BW is like every other sport, you don't always get the same person winning the trophy, but for the most part, the top tier players will be the ones advancing forward; and when they don't it's actually a real shocker. The fact that Federer can dominate for so long, so consistently, due to his pure skills, further proves that Tennis has a system and is balanced (multiple sets, multiple games per set, 4 points per game, etc) and measures skills almost perfectly. SC2 on the other hand, doesn't do this. And you exactly nailed one of the reason right now: the tournament format. It doesn't allow for consistency, because it is VERY easy to lose 1-2 sets of Bo3 in SC2, where the game is all about death-balling your army, and making one mistake can be the end of the game. It's almost like watching a basketball game that only lasts 5mins, and so whoever misses the first shot will lose. What SC2 are you watching where every game is about deathballing your army? Not anymore... not even close. In BW one mistake can lose you the game as well, I don't know when this became exclusive to SC2. The fact that Federer and Flash dominate so much is less about the game and more about them being THAT good. At one point in SC2, Nestea, MVP, and MC were THAT far ahead of everyone else. But it is a young game, and people catch up. People are making hasty generalizations compared to games/sports that have been going on for a much longer time frame. Sheesh. Stop comparing BW to SC2, it's like comparing Chess to Checkers. People can bleet on about how SC2 is new and people are still figuring out the game but honestly how many game changing innovations have their been? TvP has been MMMVG forever. 1-1-1 fell out of favor mostly due to balance changes and not anyone figuring it out. TvZ has been MMM Tank since forever. Zerg's finally started using infestors and actually getting their Tier3, I guess, some pretty intense innovation there (even though destiny had been doing it since forever, no one took him seriously though). Protoss found out that chargelots are better than stalkers and that having both collosus and high temps is pretty stronk. Biggest game play change out of protoss was the decrease in 4 gate usage (thanks to patches). The game is pretty stagnant. The strategies we see now are pretty reminiscient of the strategies from a year ago. Doesn't look like anything is going to change drastically until HOTS comes out.
I dare you to go and actually watch 1 year old games and then come back to say they are basically the same. It's not just about build orders...
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On April 13 2012 03:18 nihlon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 03:05 SupLilSon wrote:On April 13 2012 02:05 Flonomenalz wrote:On April 13 2012 01:59 Fubi wrote:On April 13 2012 01:24 Flonomenalz wrote:On April 13 2012 00:38 SeaSwift wrote:On April 13 2012 00:31 Fubi wrote:On April 13 2012 00:20 MONXY FIST wrote:
Have people ever thought that the reason we just don't have a player of Flash caliber is simply that the players are not good enough? We had very inconsistent players in BW to. There was fluke winners who would win a starleague and fall down into mediocrity. There were players who were proleague monsters but failed in proleague. Even Flash has fallen early in starleagues.Hell SAVIOR struggled to qualify for on starleague at his peak.
You ever thought that maybe the inconsistency was the fact that tournaments are more frequent? Therefore increasing the chances of a player having a bad season? Or maybe its the fact that korean players are flying all over the place when you travel so much it can take a toll on a person. Starcraft 2 players in general practice less then BW players. The SC2 Scene is different then the BW scene in more ways then just the game they play. We have had multiple winners multiple runners ups we have players who are heavy favorites etc. You can tell the top players from the mediocre and that's whats important. But when it happens so often, like in SC2 (literally every season, can happen to every one including top4's from previous), then it just creates a sense of randomness and volatility for the spectators. It's bad for sponsorship too; should we dedicate money to sponsor this player when there is a decent chance that he'll just fall off early on in the next season? Probably not. As far as the "top4 from previous" comment goes, the fact that in OSLs the semifinalists are seeded into the Ro16, and the Ro16 from last season n.i. the top 4 are seeded into the Ro24 probably helps with consistency between seasons. The format in GSL has it so that it's deliberately very hard to be consistent, because at the end of last year that's what all the feedback we gave them said - more chances for up-and-coming players to rise up, more chances for the older generation (Ensnare et al) to fall. SeaSwift, you're arguing with people that probably never watched BW or know about OSL seedings, they're just spewing out nonsense for the sake of having an argument. The fact of the matter is, Code S is really, really hard. SC2 has been out for a year and a half. Making comparisons to Federer in tennis, who has been dominating for years upon years, makes about as much sense as a fifth grader trying to do calculus. Use your freaking brains guys. GSL format makes it so hard to be consistent, that's why MVP's, Nestea's, and MC's runs of dominance where so heralded, because it's just so hard to do that. MMA has been KNOWN to have skaky TvP. He lost. Leenock has some of the best ZvT in the world, how is him beating MMA evidence of SC2 skill ceiling or randomness? Yes, MMA is the best TvZ player in the world at his best, but Leenock played arguably the most skilled ZvT in his GSL finals vs JJakji that we've ever seen. People are so quick to discredit players just because their favorites lose, and don't want to watch SC2 to see good game play, they want to watch to see their favorites win every time. This is like me saying, "OMG FLASH LOST TWICE IN PL IN THE SAME SERIES! BW IS RANDOM! NO SKILL CEILING!" Like, seriously? Pretty sure I've started watching BW before you were even born. And you're supporting exactly what I'm trying to say: that BW has been more consistent in terms of it's top players, and the fact that when upset actually happens (such as flash losing), it's ACTUALLY a shocker, not something that we can go "meh, happens every season, no big deal". BW is like every other sport, you don't always get the same person winning the trophy, but for the most part, the top tier players will be the ones advancing forward; and when they don't it's actually a real shocker. The fact that Federer can dominate for so long, so consistently, due to his pure skills, further proves that Tennis has a system and is balanced (multiple sets, multiple games per set, 4 points per game, etc) and measures skills almost perfectly. SC2 on the other hand, doesn't do this. And you exactly nailed one of the reason right now: the tournament format. It doesn't allow for consistency, because it is VERY easy to lose 1-2 sets of Bo3 in SC2, where the game is all about death-balling your army, and making one mistake can be the end of the game. It's almost like watching a basketball game that only lasts 5mins, and so whoever misses the first shot will lose. What SC2 are you watching where every game is about deathballing your army? Not anymore... not even close. In BW one mistake can lose you the game as well, I don't know when this became exclusive to SC2. The fact that Federer and Flash dominate so much is less about the game and more about them being THAT good. At one point in SC2, Nestea, MVP, and MC were THAT far ahead of everyone else. But it is a young game, and people catch up. People are making hasty generalizations compared to games/sports that have been going on for a much longer time frame. Sheesh. Stop comparing BW to SC2, it's like comparing Chess to Checkers. People can bleet on about how SC2 is new and people are still figuring out the game but honestly how many game changing innovations have their been? TvP has been MMMVG forever. 1-1-1 fell out of favor mostly due to balance changes and not anyone figuring it out. TvZ has been MMM Tank since forever. Zerg's finally started using infestors and actually getting their Tier3, I guess, some pretty intense innovation there (even though destiny had been doing it since forever, no one took him seriously though). Protoss found out that chargelots are better than stalkers and that having both collosus and high temps is pretty stronk. Biggest game play change out of protoss was the decrease in 4 gate usage (thanks to patches). The game is pretty stagnant. The strategies we see now are pretty reminiscient of the strategies from a year ago. Doesn't look like anything is going to change drastically until HOTS comes out. I dare you to go and actually watch 1 year old games and then come back to say they are basically the same. It's not just about build orders...
No it's not, I agree. But balance patches and drastic map changes have contributed more than any one player in altering the game play. The players are all better, pros make a lot less mistakes, everyone's gameplay is much crisper. But actually strategies? Yea, some early rushes have been figured out and are now pretty uncommon but nothing huge.
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...sigh poor MMA... it seems its dark days for Terran recently -_-
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This is getting a bit ridiculous. Terrans need to start building 2-3 vikings at least against Squirtle if they don't see a third base. His colo timings are going unscouted and beating the living crap out of top tier Terrans.
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On April 13 2012 03:44 boxturtle wrote:
This is getting a bit ridiculous. Terrans need to start building 2-3 vikings at least against Squirtle if they don't see a third base. His colo timings are going unscouted and beating the living crap out of top tier Terrans.
2-3 vikings won't help that much and if Protoss doesn't go Collo then huge waste of supply and your medivac/bio count will suffer and you'll just lose to double forge/temps. Shitty matchup but w/e. 
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On April 13 2012 03:52 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 03:44 boxturtle wrote:
This is getting a bit ridiculous. Terrans need to start building 2-3 vikings at least against Squirtle if they don't see a third base. His colo timings are going unscouted and beating the living crap out of top tier Terrans. 2-3 vikings won't help that much and if Protoss doesn't go Collo then huge waste of supply and your medivac/bio count will suffer and you'll just lose to double forge/temps. Shitty matchup but w/e.
Maybe, but against him specifically it would probably be a good idea, given that he's 7-0 with the same build (with slight variations) during the last couple of days, all vs top korean terrrans.
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EPT
