Welcome to the FRB Grand Tournament! $150 is up for grabs as a wealth of mega-talented players duke it out while playing under the Fewer Resources per Base concept and the unique variant of StarCraft II that it creates.
Fewer Resources per Base is the brainchild of Barrin, the Starcraft 2 mapmaker who first started drawing attention to the question, “What effect does the amount of resources available at each base have on Starcraft 2?”
The basic answer is that with the large amount of resources available at each base players have less incentive to expand and greater incentive to build maxed out "deathballs" or attack aggressively off of a relatively small number of bases. FRB addresses this by lowering the amount of minerals at each base from "8 minerals, 2 gas geysers" to "6 minerals, 1 high yield gas", effectively reducing the amount of both resources available at each base by 25%. With less economic power gained from low base counts, players are encouraged to expand more aggressively and split their army to protect their holdings rather than take a small number of bases, build a "deathball" in a defensive choke, and then attack.
For more information on what "Fewer Resources per Base" entails, check out the thread that started this entire movement, "Breadth of Gameplay in SC2".
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PLAYERS
The FRB Grand Tournament is proud to reveal our official 16 player bracket!
And here are the up-to-date brackets leading all the way up to the finals:
We would like to extend our deepest thanks to the FRB community who have been so passionate and inspired us to make this tournament come to life in the best way possible!
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The tournament race breakdown is as follows, and be sure to follow up on the Liquipedia entries to learn about the considerable accomplishments of each player.
We'll be using z33k.com to organize and gather replays, so all players who don't have an account already should create one. We'll also be sending PM's with information on your first opponent and your invitation code to the z33k tournament entry in the next couple hours. The z33k page for the FRB Grand Tournament is:
Round of 16* (Best of 3) - Friday, April 13th (8PM EST) Round of 8 (Best of 3) - Friday, April 20th (8PM EST) Semi Finals (Best of 3) - Friday, April 27th (8PM EST) Finals** (Best of 5) - Friday, May 4 (8PM EST)
Each Friday's broadcast will feature live commentary by Senex and Pull.
* Due to time constraints, four series will be casted live on stream, while the rest will be made available in VOD format. ** Also includes the 3rd Place Match, a Best of 3*
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PRIZE POOL
The Prize Pool will be distributed to the winners as follows: 1st Place: $100 2nd Place: $60 3rd Place: $25 4th Place: $15
Update: Thanks to support from our sponsor from Peepmode we've upped the prize pool to $200! The new distribution will be as seen above.
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FAN GIVEAWAY
Check this space soon for information on some awesome prizes made possible by our wonderful sponsor, Youre.Pro! In the meantime, please show your support by signing up for their site. You are given a bank of Credits that you can wager against other users - attain enough credits and you can redeem them for various rewards such as a GSL Annual Pass, a Korean StarCraft II account, Amazon.com vouchers, and more!
For the most up to date information about the raffle as information becomes available, follow @FRBGrandTourney and get one step ahead of the game!
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HOW TO WATCH
We are thrilled to announce that each of our four broadcasts will be featured on the wonderful 24/7 e-sports channel, CyberSports.TV! Show your support by following them on at @CyberSportsTV
Alternatively, you can also tune in on one of our casters, PullSC's stream.
Miss the live stream? No problem! Check out the VODs hosted on the channel of our other caster, Senex!
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Map Pool
The 5 maps that are currently accepted by FRB's creator Barrin and will be used as the map pool for this tournament are: 6m FRB Devolution 6m FRB Braxis Delta 6m FRB Shakuras Plateau 6m FRB Tal'darim Altar* 6m FRB Cross Point
Each match in the Round of 16 will start on the map '6m Devolution', the Round of 8 with '6m Shakuras Plateau, the Round of 4 with '6m Tal'darim Altar' and the Finals with '6m Cross Point.' After that first map the loser of each game picks the next map from the map pool until the overall winner is decided. Repeat maps will be allowed to help the players compensate for the smaller map pool.
*6m Tal'Darim has been changed in more ways than just adjusting the resource counts. The rocks blocking third bases have been removed and the main is now a high ground with a ramp down to the natural. We highly recommend players explore the map before playing official games on it.
Watch the FRB Grand Tournament and talk about it! Tweet to your favorite e-sports community figures about the idea and the tournament! The best way for the Tournament and FRB in general to grow and succeed is for you, the community, to be active in supporting them. For those interested, writing Blizzard or major community figures, (I'm looking at you Day9, this needs to be a Funday Monday! ) is another great way to get the ideas of FRB out there.
If you want to play some FRB games yourself or just hang out with other FRB fans, you can go to the channel 'FRB' (without quotes) on both the NA and EU servers. If you want to find the FRB maps via the Custom Games finder search for '6m' or '6m1hyg' (without quotes) to see all the maps currently available in FRB format!
Q: This isn't Brood War, this is Starcraft 2. Why are you trying to turn Starcraft 2 into Brood War?
A:The goal of FRB isn't to transform Starcraft 2 in to a copy of Brood War, it's to find some of the features that have made other strategy games successful and incorporate those elements into Starcraft 2. No one is saying that Starcraft 2 is a bad game; indeed everyone involved in the FRB project is working so hard because we love the game and hope to find ways to make it even better, not transform it into something it's not.
Q: Is there any real chance of Blizzard taking these ideas seriously, or would such a change be too radical and too disruptive to core gameplay for them to implement?
A: There has already been indications that Blizzard is paying attention to the idea of Fewer Resources per Base, for example, in the talk show below starting at 49:50
That aside, it's the size of the community response that will determine how seriously the FRB ideas are considered. So if you like the concepts in FRB be sure to support the FRB Grand Tournament, post in the 'Breadth of Gameplay in SC2' thread on Team Liquid and write Blizzard to voice your opinions.
As a final note: it could very well turn out that the 6 mineral fields and 1 high yield gas version of FRB we're using in this tournament is not the optimal distribution for Starcraft 2. We're far more interested in getting the key ideas out there among the community and developers than trying to find the perfect 'fix' Starcraft 2 ourselves, (if it's even 'broken.') The FRB Grand Tournament and FRB in general are meant to serve as proofs of concept rather than solutions.
Q: Doesn't having fewer resources per base create imbalances in the game?
A: Thus far there have not been any glaring imbalances between races or units demonstrated in FRB games, and indeed many previously underused units have seen a resurgence in popularity and usefulness. However, it could very well be that there are some imbalanced aspects created by having 6 mineral fields and 1 high yield gas, but that's all the more reason to have this tournament. It's only by having a large number of well-analyzed games that potential problems with FRB can be found and corrected, and this tournament is a unique opportunity to explore the positive and negative effects of having fewer resources per base.
I don't really see why there needs to be a tournament to study whether less minerals and geisers is balanced. It's kind of obvious it shifts the balance towards Zergs and Terran since they benefit the most from more hatches and orbitals (more larva and mules, hatches are cheaper, cc can lift and mine other bases later). Zergs will also benefit from the fact that 1 rich gas now cost 25 minerals + 1 drone compared to 50 minerals + 2 drones.
The game has been balanced around 2 gas geisers and 8 mineral patches mostly because it allows more variety in gameplay, I don't have anything against smaller bases here and there like on crevasse or daybreak but it can not be the norm unless you also change the cost of buildings and units.
Tournaments helping the mapping community are a good idea but they should play all kinds of maps not just trying to prove Barrin's ideas, like when he said the only viable symmetry was the "VARS", the true left right symmetry. If these maps work I'll make maps with 3 patches 1 gas, and gold bases with 1 gold patch and 1 gas and we'll see if games are more interresting.
I approve of this idea EXCEPT the idea that round of 16 being a best of 1. If we are going to give the players (hopefully myself included) have a week to arrange a good time to play it may as well be a best of 3 as time constraint wouldnt be a problem for the players.
For casting purposes you can either skip series if it is a matchup repeat or if a series goes to game 3 just do the cast of game 3 so it is essentially a best of 1 for the viewer.
This is from someone who always thinks BO3 is better if time permits. But I hope I get in (low masters on ladder, havnt played much of the FRB)
O.O Thanks Verveji! I totally missed that on the first readthrough!
About prize pools: Right now the FRB Grand Tournament is meant to be a community tournament to draw attention and enthusiasm to the ideas of FRB. We're hesitant to involve money just yet, because while none of the games we've seen so far have suggested that there are imbalances in the game we won't be sure of that until after this tournament at least. In light of that, it seems premature to put money on the line. However, if there is a lot of support for making a prize pool we'll definitely be open to reconsidering for this tournament or in FRB Grand Tournament 2!
About having the tournament be about balance: The effects of FRB have been studied over several weeks with more than a thousand hours played on just 6m Devolution. This tournament is the next step, to get a lot of high-level players together playing on maps that have thus far been balanced, entertaining and fun.
I'm incredibly excited about this tournament and can't wait to see the turn out for it. As for what Chuky said, it's purpose isn't to test the balance, we've been doing that for the past 2 weeks. It's just to provide an entertaining event that's a little different than what people are used to seeing. The ideas that Barrin has come up with are really cool so we want to let the community see how they play out in a more official style :D
As an aside, another purpose of this tournament is to further the momentum that FRB/6m has generated thus far. As stated in the "Mappers" video, Blizzard would need to see that FRB is something embraced by a large portion of the community for it to really stick. With Heart of the Swarm's release coming up soon-ish, we feel that we have an opportunity to make a real change to StarCraft II as a whole. Right now, this is a very, very niche community within the larger SCII ecosystem, but this tournament is hopefully the first of many, with each being bigger and better than the last.
SO with that in mind, please spread this to your SC friends and introduce them to the FRB/6m idea. The more groundswell we can create, the more likely it is to catch Blizzard's eye and potentially bring about changes to the core of Heart of the Swarm.
On March 27 2012 02:40 chuky500 wrote: I don't really see why there needs to be a tournament to study whether less minerals and geisers is balanced. It's kind of obvious it shifts the balance towards Zergs and Terran since they benefit the most from more hatches and orbitals (more larva and mules, hatches are cheaper, cc can lift and mine other bases later). Zergs will also benefit from the fact that 1 rich gas now cost 25 minerals + 1 drone compared to 50 minerals + 2 drones.
The game has been balanced around 2 gas geisers and 8 mineral patches mostly because it allows more variety in gameplay, I don't have anything against smaller bases here and there like on crevasse or daybreak but it can not be the norm unless you also change the cost of buildings and units.
Tournaments helping the mapping community are a good idea but they should play all kinds of maps not just trying to prove Barrin's ideas, like when he said the only viable symmetry was the "VARS", the true left right symmetry. If these maps work I'll make maps with 3 patches 1 gas, and gold bases with 1 gold patch and 1 gas and we'll see if games are more interresting.
By variety, you mean 2 base deathballs.
Lots of players now understand that you can do so much on 2 base, you never need your 3rd till much much later. You can have all the tech and upgrades and be at least 170 food with each race just on two base alone. This just leaves to shitty variety as its whoever gets a deathball first and does enough damage to win the game.
Sure you can QQ about mules and hatches all day, but don't lie to yourselves and say, "Oh, theres tons of variety on 8m2g."
Things like this tournament is whats needed to really start seeing how things pan out when theres something to work toward. If someone can figure out something broken/OP/exploit because of 6m1hyg then so be it -- we return to deathballs galore.
On March 27 2012 04:24 Barrin wrote: Woot woot!!! Ferby tournaments are the best tournaments :D
@Senex, Pull, you guys are awesome for putting this tournament together (I am a mere helper ^^). And for all the casting you've been doing on FRB maps. ♥
@YOU If you're getting tired of the way SC2 gameplay has been thus far, please give this a chance. If you like the idea (I am confident that you will) Blizzard will listen to us, if only we show them that we like watching this stuff!
I'm currently happy with SC2 gameplay... However, I see the potential here for something even better! I'll definitely be keeping an eye on this.
Yes there's more variety when you have 2 gas instead of 1 because you can choose to have 1 or 2. And with more mineral patches there's more room for strategies that involve cutting probes. In the youtube video there's a valid argument by ProdiG. He says 6 mineral bases would be useful in the late game because when a terran or zerg have a stock of minerals and need to rebuild a quick army they can produce marines or zerglings while zealots are useless for a protoss.
That said it's fine this tournament is happening but it's a bit sad to read 6 mineral maps had thousand of hours of playtime while the whole mapping community could have benefitted from this play time. imo it's the same as when iccup ran community maps tournaments on their own maps. It's just not aimed at the community but centered on particular people.
On March 27 2012 05:13 Barrin wrote: This is not about just a few people, this is about an entire game and history RTS gaming...
I have already seen a bunch of Masters players play on 6m maps and I have to say, they are a ton of fun to watch. I am really really excited to watch this tournament!
I feel strongly about the bo1 for the ro32/ro16. They need to be best of 3s at least. Bo1 is begging players to lose due to surprises in the map style, probably in the form of build order losses and cheese.
Cheese testing is important for the format, but you don't want a cheese tournament where one player makes a tricky build and just crushes the others because it's so new.
Can't wait for seeing more 6m games, I just don't like the best-of-1 part. But I guess with the amount of games massing up with best-of-threes in earlier rounds it would get too much to cast, so I won't blame you for it.
What about getting some "famous" casters behind this idea? Day9, Husky or someone like that, would be a pretty good way to spread the word further. Sorry if this has been suggested or attempted, but I didn't see any mention of this so far.
On March 27 2012 09:33 Kefir wrote: What about getting some "famous" casters behind this idea? Day9, Husky or someone like that, would be a pretty good way to spread the word further. Sorry if this has been suggested or attempted, but I didn't see any mention of this so far.
I agree completely, and we're working on securing a community caster. At the very least, if we don't get any famous casters for this first tournament, a successful event with good viewership numbers should help entice said casters in future editions of the tournament.
That being said, Pull and Senex both do a great job, regardless of how famous they are!
On March 27 2012 09:33 Kefir wrote: What about getting some "famous" casters behind this idea? Day9, Husky or someone like that, would be a pretty good way to spread the word further. Sorry if this has been suggested or attempted, but I didn't see any mention of this so far.
I heard the current casters are pretty good
As far as securing a community caster goes that's pretty much taken care of between senex and myself. We have mulled over the idea of possibly having some guest commentators though on some of the nights. Either way we promise to deliver
Pretty much what Pull said. If Husky, Day9 or whoever is interested in joining in the casting we'd love to have them. Everyone who's interested in that should write or tweet them and encourage them to take part. :D
I believe it is blade You can typically type 6m1hyg and search and find them. However, your best bet would be to join the "7m" channel on SC2 and ask / discuss it with the players there!
On March 27 2012 09:33 Kefir wrote: What about getting some "famous" casters behind this idea? Day9, Husky or someone like that, would be a pretty good way to spread the word further. Sorry if this has been suggested or attempted, but I didn't see any mention of this so far.
I heard the current casters are pretty good
As far as securing a community caster goes that's pretty much taken care of between senex and myself. We have mulled over the idea of possibly having some guest commentators though on some of the nights. Either way we promise to deliver
If you guys need someone for whatever reason on some of the nights, let me know (some IRL issue comes up or something). I've hosted a few tournaments in the past, and started doing some 6m casts recently.
On March 27 2012 09:33 Kefir wrote: What about getting some "famous" casters behind this idea? Day9, Husky or someone like that, would be a pretty good way to spread the word further. Sorry if this has been suggested or attempted, but I didn't see any mention of this so far.
I heard the current casters are pretty good
As far as securing a community caster goes that's pretty much taken care of between senex and myself. We have mulled over the idea of possibly having some guest commentators though on some of the nights. Either way we promise to deliver
Haha, sorry, didn't mean to say anything bad about your casts. I really liked what I saw from you. The suggestion doesn't concern the casting itself, it's about making sure everyone knows of this. [Insert well-known caster] shouldn't necessarily cast this tournament, but at least talk about it, and perhaps start casting games of this format themselves. In addition to your casts, not instead~
Anyway, great job so far, love your effort on this ;O Keep it up!
On March 27 2012 05:13 Barrin wrote: I'm not really convinced you completely understand what can make "more room for strategies". Here is a large part of the story that is common to miss.
"But isn't lowering the resources per base going to give players less options and thus make it less interesting?"
It's important to understand that when you give one person something you're also giving it to the other person. When you give each player more resources, you are giving both of them what they need to both defend and attack. Interestingly enough, this has not proven to create back-and-forth games by itself.
However, when you limit their resources, you are limiting their tools. You are forcing them to make decisions with which tools to use. This gives both players the opportunity to find which tool(s) the opponent lacks and attempt to punish it with superior use of another tool. This does not necessarily imply imbalance or coin-flipping, and Asymmetric forces are exciting.
In other words, giving both players all the tools they need (more resources) is like a macho-man, arm-wrestling, head-butting match (that catalyzes the snowball effect). Limiting the tools they have (less resources) turns it into an intricate dance (in a masculine way ^^).
This is not about just a few people, this is about an entire game and history RTS gaming... and the gameplay issue cuts much deeper than balance. This is the game we play, and this is about staying true to what it should have been in the first place. Balance should have been done around lower income rate (achievable in multiple ways) in the first place. Almost unanimous by recognizable people who have been around long enough to know what they're talking about. We just need to make it bigger and bigger so Blizzard gets it.
While I believe 2g > 1g... 6m1hyg with 2000m/5000g is the very best we can do without touching the data editor.
i'm sorry but that's pure horseshit, if you want bw, go play bw, sc2 is the game that blizzard made and either you can enjoy playing it or you can not and stop, you want the game to be the way you want it, and that's fine, but you have no right to say this is about staying true to what it should have been in the first place. I've seen this in countless communities and it's always bullshit, on another note, roaches are stupidly overpowered in your map, I don't even have to play it to figure that to be true, just do some simple math, less gas means no sentries, no sentries mean early game zvp is completely out of whack, also stop trying to remake sc2 into bw, they havent even balanced sc2 WOL yet and now you want to completely change the way the game is played, also if you're not willing to put the time into the mod to go into the data editor, you clearly don't want it enough
On March 27 2012 05:13 Barrin wrote: I'm not really convinced you completely understand what can make "more room for strategies". Here is a large part of the story that is common to miss.
(except from Breadth of Gameplay in SC2)
Fallacy B:
"But isn't lowering the resources per base going to give players less options and thus make it less interesting?"
It's important to understand that when you give one person something you're also giving it to the other person. When you give each player more resources, you are giving both of them what they need to both defend and attack. Interestingly enough, this has not proven to create back-and-forth games by itself.
However, when you limit their resources, you are limiting their tools. You are forcing them to make decisions with which tools to use. This gives both players the opportunity to find which tool(s) the opponent lacks and attempt to punish it with superior use of another tool. This does not necessarily imply imbalance or coin-flipping, and Asymmetric forces are exciting.
In other words, giving both players all the tools they need (more resources) is like a macho-man, arm-wrestling, head-butting match (that catalyzes the snowball effect). Limiting the tools they have (less resources) turns it into an intricate dance (in a masculine way ^^).
This is not about just a few people, this is about an entire game and history RTS gaming... and the gameplay issue cuts much deeper than balance. This is the game we play, and this is about staying true to what it should have been in the first place. Balance should have been done around lower income rate (achievable in multiple ways) in the first place. Almost unanimous by recognizable people who have been around long enough to know what they're talking about. We just need to make it bigger and bigger so Blizzard gets it.
While I believe 2g > 1g... 6m1hyg with 2000m/5000g is the very best we can do without touching the data editor.
i'm sorry but that's pure horseshit, if you want bw, go play bw, sc2 is the game that blizzard made and either you can enjoy playing it or you can not and stop, you want the game to be the way you want it, and that's fine, but you have no right to say this is about staying true to what it should have been in the first place. I've seen this in countless communities and it's always bullshit, on another note, roaches are stupidly overpowered in your map, I don't even have to play it to figure that to be true, just do some simple math, less gas means no sentries, no sentries mean early game zvp is completely out of whack, also stop trying to remake sc2 into bw, they havent even balanced sc2 WOL yet and now you want to completely change the way the game is played, also if you're not willing to put the time into the mod to go into the data editor, you clearly don't want it enough
This isn't BW, this is about making SC2 more fun. If you haven't played FRBs yet, STFU and go troll elsewhere.
On March 27 2012 05:13 Barrin wrote: I'm not really convinced you completely understand what can make "more room for strategies". Here is a large part of the story that is common to miss.
(except from Breadth of Gameplay in SC2)
Fallacy B:
"But isn't lowering the resources per base going to give players less options and thus make it less interesting?"
It's important to understand that when you give one person something you're also giving it to the other person. When you give each player more resources, you are giving both of them what they need to both defend and attack. Interestingly enough, this has not proven to create back-and-forth games by itself.
However, when you limit their resources, you are limiting their tools. You are forcing them to make decisions with which tools to use. This gives both players the opportunity to find which tool(s) the opponent lacks and attempt to punish it with superior use of another tool. This does not necessarily imply imbalance or coin-flipping, and Asymmetric forces are exciting.
In other words, giving both players all the tools they need (more resources) is like a macho-man, arm-wrestling, head-butting match (that catalyzes the snowball effect). Limiting the tools they have (less resources) turns it into an intricate dance (in a masculine way ^^).
This is not about just a few people, this is about an entire game and history RTS gaming... and the gameplay issue cuts much deeper than balance. This is the game we play, and this is about staying true to what it should have been in the first place. Balance should have been done around lower income rate (achievable in multiple ways) in the first place. Almost unanimous by recognizable people who have been around long enough to know what they're talking about. We just need to make it bigger and bigger so Blizzard gets it.
While I believe 2g > 1g... 6m1hyg with 2000m/5000g is the very best we can do without touching the data editor.
i'm sorry but that's pure horseshit, if you want bw, go play bw, sc2 is the game that blizzard made and either you can enjoy playing it or you can not and stop, you want the game to be the way you want it, and that's fine, but you have no right to say this is about staying true to what it should have been in the first place. I've seen this in countless communities and it's always bullshit, on another note, roaches are stupidly overpowered in your map, I don't even have to play it to figure that to be true, just do some simple math, less gas means no sentries, no sentries mean early game zvp is completely out of whack, also stop trying to remake sc2 into bw, they havent even balanced sc2 WOL yet and now you want to completely change the way the game is played, also if you're not willing to put the time into the mod to go into the data editor, you clearly don't want it enough
There's a great post about all of this here on TL where you can feel absolutely free to discuss all of the balance issues that you feel exist and blah blah. However, we're going to keep this thread focused on the tournament Thanks man.
Here's your link...http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=321242
On March 27 2012 05:13 Barrin wrote: I'm not really convinced you completely understand what can make "more room for strategies". Here is a large part of the story that is common to miss.
(except from Breadth of Gameplay in SC2)
Fallacy B:
"But isn't lowering the resources per base going to give players less options and thus make it less interesting?"
It's important to understand that when you give one person something you're also giving it to the other person. When you give each player more resources, you are giving both of them what they need to both defend and attack. Interestingly enough, this has not proven to create back-and-forth games by itself.
However, when you limit their resources, you are limiting their tools. You are forcing them to make decisions with which tools to use. This gives both players the opportunity to find which tool(s) the opponent lacks and attempt to punish it with superior use of another tool. This does not necessarily imply imbalance or coin-flipping, and Asymmetric forces are exciting.
In other words, giving both players all the tools they need (more resources) is like a macho-man, arm-wrestling, head-butting match (that catalyzes the snowball effect). Limiting the tools they have (less resources) turns it into an intricate dance (in a masculine way ^^).
This is not about just a few people, this is about an entire game and history RTS gaming... and the gameplay issue cuts much deeper than balance. This is the game we play, and this is about staying true to what it should have been in the first place. Balance should have been done around lower income rate (achievable in multiple ways) in the first place. Almost unanimous by recognizable people who have been around long enough to know what they're talking about. We just need to make it bigger and bigger so Blizzard gets it.
While I believe 2g > 1g... 6m1hyg with 2000m/5000g is the very best we can do without touching the data editor.
i'm sorry but that's pure horseshit, if you want bw, go play bw, sc2 is the game that blizzard made and either you can enjoy playing it or you can not and stop, you want the game to be the way you want it, and that's fine, but you have no right to say this is about staying true to what it should have been in the first place. I've seen this in countless communities and it's always bullshit, on another note, roaches are stupidly overpowered in your map, I don't even have to play it to figure that to be true, just do some simple math, less gas means no sentries, no sentries mean early game zvp is completely out of whack, also stop trying to remake sc2 into bw, they havent even balanced sc2 WOL yet and now you want to completely change the way the game is played, also if you're not willing to put the time into the mod to go into the data editor, you clearly don't want it enough
There's a great post about all of this here on TL where you can feel absolutely free to discuss all of the balance issues that you feel exist and blah blah. However, we're going to keep this thread focused on the tournament Thanks man.
Here's your link...http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=321242
i'll gladly play the tournament if you'll have me, doesn't stop be thinking the concept in general is just bw hangover crap
On March 27 2012 05:13 Barrin wrote: I'm not really convinced you completely understand what can make "more room for strategies". Here is a large part of the story that is common to miss.
(except from Breadth of Gameplay in SC2)
Fallacy B:
"But isn't lowering the resources per base going to give players less options and thus make it less interesting?"
It's important to understand that when you give one person something you're also giving it to the other person. When you give each player more resources, you are giving both of them what they need to both defend and attack. Interestingly enough, this has not proven to create back-and-forth games by itself.
However, when you limit their resources, you are limiting their tools. You are forcing them to make decisions with which tools to use. This gives both players the opportunity to find which tool(s) the opponent lacks and attempt to punish it with superior use of another tool. This does not necessarily imply imbalance or coin-flipping, and Asymmetric forces are exciting.
In other words, giving both players all the tools they need (more resources) is like a macho-man, arm-wrestling, head-butting match (that catalyzes the snowball effect). Limiting the tools they have (less resources) turns it into an intricate dance (in a masculine way ^^).
This is not about just a few people, this is about an entire game and history RTS gaming... and the gameplay issue cuts much deeper than balance. This is the game we play, and this is about staying true to what it should have been in the first place. Balance should have been done around lower income rate (achievable in multiple ways) in the first place. Almost unanimous by recognizable people who have been around long enough to know what they're talking about. We just need to make it bigger and bigger so Blizzard gets it.
While I believe 2g > 1g... 6m1hyg with 2000m/5000g is the very best we can do without touching the data editor.
i'm sorry but that's pure horseshit, if you want bw, go play bw, sc2 is the game that blizzard made and either you can enjoy playing it or you can not and stop, you want the game to be the way you want it, and that's fine, but you have no right to say this is about staying true to what it should have been in the first place. I've seen this in countless communities and it's always bullshit, on another note, roaches are stupidly overpowered in your map, I don't even have to play it to figure that to be true, just do some simple math, less gas means no sentries, no sentries mean early game zvp is completely out of whack, also stop trying to remake sc2 into bw, they havent even balanced sc2 WOL yet and now you want to completely change the way the game is played, also if you're not willing to put the time into the mod to go into the data editor, you clearly don't want it enough
This isn't BW, this is about making SC2 more fun. If you haven't played FRBs yet, STFU and go troll elsewhere.
based on barrin's own quotes, this is about making sc2 more like bw, whether that's more fun is entirely up for debate or whether that would need a crapton of balancing, again entirely up for debate, but that doesn't change what he's trying to do
On March 28 2012 00:40 Coramoor wrote: based on barrin's own quotes, this is about making sc2 more like bw, whether that's more fun is entirely up for debate or whether that would need a crapton of balancing, again entirely up for debate, but that doesn't change what he's trying to do
On March 28 2012 00:40 Coramoor wrote: based on barrin's own quotes, this is about making sc2 more like bw, whether that's more fun is entirely up for debate or whether that would need a crapton of balancing, again entirely up for debate, but that doesn't change what he's trying to do
oh i fully read it, i just think he wants a bw style game, with mbs etc, the fact that he thinks it's better with a mineral and gas setup more like bw is his opinion, and his right to try it as an experiment, it doesn't change what i said from being my opinion, or in my opinion being true. His quote full on basically says, blizzard fucked up what we wanted sc2 to be, lets make it that way, which is bw (and some unit changes, i don't want to make implications on barrin's opinions on various units) without the stupid ass limitations of a system from 98
Well this should be an interesting one to watch. As long as nobody finds a super-exploitable imbalance (i.e. 5 rax reaper) then it will be cool to see just how differently the games play out.
On March 28 2012 01:42 Akamu wrote: hey hey I'm a masters terran who is usually chilling in the channel and would be down to play in this :D
PM Senex (the thread's creator) about it! We're primarily looking for masters+ although lower leagues shouldn't feel like they can't join. That being said, in order to put on the highest level tournament possible, league status and race distribution will be used for priority in filling the bracket.
Hello hello everyone, there has now been the 2nd major update to the front page, based on popular demand and the absolutely awesome TL community. We are listening to you guys, so keep the feedback coming! Thanks to all those who have already signed up, and I encourage anyone of the fence to throw their names in.
This will also go to the first page, but for all you folks who are reading each post of the thread here it is too.
Update 2: Due to popular demand we're going to make the RO16 into best of 3's. The initial thought was to cast every game for you guys, and in order to do that we needed to reduce the sheer number of games in the RO16. However, because a BO3 is a more fair and generally less cheesy setup we'll be going with that. Pull and I will pick the best matches from the RO16 to cast on Friday, April 13th, and might end up doing the rest of them if there's demand for it.
Because the TL community is awesome, someone has stepped up and offered to contribute to a prize pool! I shouldn't have to say what awesome news this is, having a prize pool will encourage many good players to apply, and even pros who are used to competing for thousands of dollars will be more likely to take part just because it compensates them a bit for their time. We're still talking over exactly what the final amount will be and the breakdown for 1st, 2nd, 3rd and so forth, but I should have more details soon. If a prize pool is something you're interested in contributing to contact me through a PM and I'd be happy to talk to you more about it. It's totally volunteer, so no one should feel like they're under any pressure whatsoever to contribute money.
Thanks everyone for reading, and I look forward to continuing to make this tournament even better!
Just curiou when will people that signed up know if they are in or not? I PMd barrin and have no problem waiting, but just curious when to expect to know if I get to play in it or not.
I'd say when we get a little bit closer to day 1. We need to make sure as many applicants have applied as possible before the brackets are drawn. We'll be sure to let everyone know plenty well in advance. Everyone just needs to sign up and make sure they tell all their friends who may be interested in the tournament to sign up!
I saw your message on the Bnet thread hunts, and have added you to the list of interested folks. Like Pull said we'll be selecting the players in about a week and will send each of you a message then with information on your first opponent, when and where the replays should be submitted and stuff like that. More updates soon.
Okay, we'll add you to the list! And just so everyone knows, make sure to pay attention to the thread as we'll be updating it with some pretty big info about the Prize Pool!!!! It's gonna be sick!
You read that right! There is now a $100 prize pool to be competed for in the FRB Grand Tournament! He wanted to be mentioned only in a footnote, but this kind of SICK NERD BALLERY cannot be contained by puny footnotes! A huge, huge thanks goes to OverUsedChewToy for his incredible show of support. Seriously dude, you're awesome.
So to any of those excellent players out there who were a little hesitant or unsure, come on in and apply! If you don't think you're quite up to competing yourself, encourage your friends to sign up. And, most of all, for those who want to see pro-players in this tournament, send them PM's, tweets or messages on facebook. This isn't just for bragging rights anymore folks, there's $100 on the line, so lets make sure the very best players are competing for it!
The prize pool breakdown will go like this: 1st Place: $50 2nd Place: $25 3rd Place: $15 4th Place: $10
I can't wait to see who takes these home.
EDIT: Woah! I just got contacted by another amazing member of the SC community saying he'd be interested in contributing to the prize pool as well. These may not be the final numbers folks, so stay tuned.
Anyone interested in signing make sure you either send your battlenet name and identifier ( 3 digit number ) to senex or post both in this thread. Just posting the name will make it impossible for us to find you. Thanks guys!
Just wanted to give a brief update... We now have a few notable professional players who will be taking part in the competition, and are actively pursuing more to bring you the highest quality tournament possible!
Keep checking back in this thread for the reveal of the lineup!
The second is that we now have is.Asxlav and vileIllusion joining the Tournament! I can't wait to see how these extremely skilled players approach the FRB maps, and I can't want to see the games. If you like that they're taking part in the tournament be sure to tweet, PM or facebook them and let them know!
We're still looking for players to fill out the brackets, so if you want your chance at a $150 prize pool or just to cut your teeth against talented professional players be sure to apply! Send your Starcraft 2 name and 3 digit identifier to OldManSenex and we'll add you to the pool of interested candidates. We'll be closing the applications and announcing the brackets on April 6th, so act sooner rather than later. I look forward to seeing you there!
In addition to iS.Axslav and vileIllusion, the tournament will also feature HeavensLighT (LighT eSports) and ClashShew (Team Clash). Stay tuned for even more on the news front.
We're pleased to welcome HeavensLighT, ClashShew and GoSuViBE to the tournament, where they will face off against numerous other skilled players including iS.Axslav and vileIllusion! The brackets will be released on April 6th, so if you want to take part be sure to apply soon!
There will be a bit of formatting information coming soon, so stay tuned.
We're proud to announce that each of our four broadcasts will be streamed live on the 24/7 e-sports network, www.CyberSports.TV
Be sure to show your support for this excellent channel by following their Twitter at @CyberSportsTV, and receive a Tweet whenever a program/event goes live on their channel!
This is literally getting so exciting. I can not WAIT to cast these games!
For those still wanting to sign up, it's not too late. Just pm senex or myself to express your interest. Or even post on this thread with your info of you want to.
For those unfamiliar with FRB STILL! Haha JK You can check out YouTube.com/wiseoldsenex and YouTube.com/pullsc to see what the matches are usually like.
Of course, now that we have all these gosu players playing the games might end up being entirely different that anything we've seen before!
coL.GanZi will be taking part in the tournament! For those who don't know who he is . . . where have you been? He's a Code S Korean Terran who most recently finished top 8 in the MLG Winter Arena, after slaughtering his way through the lower bracket and defeating players including Socke, MVP and MC. For those who want to know more of his accomplishments (and there are a lot of them!), check out his liquipedia at:
One other quick update, due to popular demand and reconsideration from FRB's creator Barrin, 6m Entombed Valley has been removed from the official FRB map pool, and will be therefore also be removed from the FRB Grand Tournament map pool. The difficulty in taking and holding bases, weirdness with destructible rocks and general closeness of the map made it less successful as a FRB map than had been originally hoped, and it will be replaced by the new map 6m Braxis Delta by Barrin. For more information on that, check out http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=325475
The full list of professional players who are taking part is now: col.Ganzi, is.Axslav, vileIllusion, coL.Goswser, GoSuViBE, NrGLuckyFool, cvgFitzyHere, NMxMasa, HeavensLighT and ClashShew. However, if you're a community member hoping to take part in the tournament don't despair! There are still slots left and we'll be picking from the best community members to fill them in the brackets released this Friday, April 6th!
On April 04 2012 05:36 OldManSenex wrote: Nope, I get to spill them!
coL.GanZi will be taking part in the tournament! For those who don't know who he is . . . where have you been? He's a Code S Korean Terran who most recently finished top 8 in the MLG Winter Arena, after slaughtering his way through the lower bracket and defeating players including Socke, MVP and MC. For those who want to know more of his accomplishments (and there are a lot of them!), check out his liquipedia at:
One other quick update, due to popular demand and reconsideration from FRB's creator Barrin, 6m Entombed Valley has been removed from the official FRB map pool, and will be therefore also be removed from the FRB Grand Tournament map pool. The difficulty in taking and holding bases, weirdness with destructible rocks and general closeness of the map made it less successful as a FRB map than had been originally hoped, and it will be replaced by the new map 6m Braxis Delta by Barrin. For more information on that, check out http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=325475
The full list of professional players who are taking part is now: col.Ganzi, is.Axslav, vileIllusion, coL.Goswser, GoSuViBE, NrGLuckyFool, cvgFitzyHere, NMxMasa, HeavensLighT and ClashShew. However, if you're a community member hoping to take part in the tournament don't despair! There are still slots left and we'll be picking from the best community members to fill them in the brackets released this Friday, April 6th!
Well this is boss as fuck. Totally will tune in for some of this
A huge number of professional players have joined the tournament, including col.Ganzi, is.Axslav, vileIllusion, coL.Goswser, GoSuViBE, NrGLuckyFool, cvgFitzyHere, NMxMasa, HeavensLighT and ClashShew!
Huge respect for them and any other pro who joins this noble cause that could help improve the game we all love.
Can we set up a donation link so we can add to the prize pool? I'd like to see if we can entice more Koreans or some of the tip-top foreigners. Or even pay one of the high-profile casters so we can get huge exposure.
On March 27 2012 02:40 chuky500 wrote: I don't really see why there needs to be a tournament to study whether less minerals and geisers is balanced. It's kind of obvious it shifts the balance towards Zergs and Terran since they benefit the most from more hatches and orbitals (more larva and mules, hatches are cheaper, cc can lift and mine other bases later). Zergs will also benefit from the fact that 1 rich gas now cost 25 minerals + 1 drone compared to 50 minerals + 2 drones.
The game has been balanced around 2 gas geisers and 8 mineral patches mostly because it allows more variety in gameplay, I don't have anything against smaller bases here and there like on crevasse or daybreak but it can not be the norm unless you also change the cost of buildings and units.
Tournaments helping the mapping community are a good idea but they should play all kinds of maps not just trying to prove Barrin's ideas, like when he said the only viable symmetry was the "VARS", the true left right symmetry. If these maps work I'll make maps with 3 patches 1 gas, and gold bases with 1 gold patch and 1 gas and we'll see if games are more interresting.
You are missing completely the point. Game is imbalanced due to "more obrital" when you do not need 70 workers but only 20 with 6 cc and keep up.
I do not wanna compare BW and SC2 but in this case I have. In zegs 2 base play you would have 1 macro hatch = 9 larva now you can have 12 larva with 2 hatch. You say imbalanced? Maybe, it gives protoss a good fast saturation and 4 gate will turn into 3 gate :D:D:D but other than that i think it is ok.6m1g is to force you into expanding instead of turtle mode on 2 base. Which promotes multitasking and map awareness, thus better players. Also 1 base all ins become weaker.
On April 04 2012 14:51 Bijan wrote: Can we set up a donation link so we can add to the prize pool? I'd like to see if we can entice more Koreans or some of the tip-top foreigners. Or even pay one of the high-profile casters so we can get huge exposure.
Hey thanks for your interest in donating to the prize pool! Currently we have capped the out the prize pool as it's just the first tournament and we want to see how successful it is. If the tournament ends up being a huge success and we do another one, we'll definitely make sure the information for a paypal is available for those who want to donate. Thanks again buddy.
On April 04 2012 14:51 Bijan wrote: Can we set up a donation link so we can add to the prize pool? I'd like to see if we can entice more Koreans or some of the tip-top foreigners. Or even pay one of the high-profile casters so we can get huge exposure.
Hey thanks for your interest in donating to the prize pool! Currently we have capped the out the prize pool as it's just the first tournament and we want to see how successful it is. If the tournament ends up being a huge success and we do another one, we'll definitely make sure the information for a paypal is available for those who want to donate. Thanks again buddy.
I'm looking forward to this more than IPL4 at the moment. The idea that this could snowball into real change (if it plays out how we want it to) is super exciting.
hmmm, i dunno about using non-tested maps like devolution. Using maps like shakuras and TDA with 6m1g should be good but we don't know the balance of these untested maps so yeah. I feel like the "test" for 6m1g would be greatly improved if there weren't so many factors to consider such as map balance.
Actually, in a lot of ways the current ladder maps are even less tested than ones like Devolution and Braxis Delta, just because they were never designed for the FRB variant. While maps like Devolution are less well known to the community, they were designed with FRB in mind, and are generally more friendly to the kind of gameplay it encourages. That's not to say that 6m Tal'Darim and 6m Shakuras Plateau are bad maps for the variant! Indeed, we think they both work quite well, but for example, we just removed 6m Entombed Valley from the map pool because the base layout, ramps and destructible rocks just didn't quite work for FRB. This tournament will be a big proving ground, and we'll be carefully taking note of how maps perform for future events.
On April 04 2012 15:59 johnnywup wrote: hmmm, i dunno about using non-tested maps like devolution. Using maps like shakuras and TDA with 6m1g should be good but we don't know the balance of these untested maps so yeah. I feel like the "test" for 6m1g would be greatly improved if there weren't so many factors to consider such as map balance.
Using familiar maps doesn't matter as much when every timing you know has changed. And in fact, the new maps are much better for the 6m paradigm. It's a compromise. This is to show cool games and see what happens when top players put their apm to use.
On April 04 2012 15:59 johnnywup wrote: hmmm, i dunno about using non-tested maps like devolution. Using maps like shakuras and TDA with 6m1g should be good but we don't know the balance of these untested maps so yeah. I feel like the "test" for 6m1g would be greatly improved if there weren't so many factors to consider such as map balance.
The issue with using some of the ladder maps converted to 6m1hyg is that many are simply not large enough (either in layout, or in base count) to sustain long games. Consider Korhal Compound only has 5 bases per player, Cloud Kingdom has 6. They were made for 8m.
Both Devolution and Braxis Delta have 8 bases per player, which allow for late game scenarios in the 6m1hyg format. Antiga and Metropolis could theoretically be used since it has 7, but it'd still be an overall mineral decrease.
While these maps haven't been tested on a massive scale, there has been a lot of interaction between mapmakers and the FRB playing community, with tons of people playing and even more importantly, observing games on these maps. Changes have been made to balance the map based on what the community has seen. Of course, this isn't going to lead to perfect balance, but it also needs to be considered that map imbalances exist even in the standard 8m format.
I love this idea, I really want sc2 to evolve past the deathballs.
My only complaint is they really should be playing BO3. One game doesn't decide who is the better player. Many finals end up being down to one game even in best of 7s.
Awesome, Ganzi fight! Gonna be great to see how the game looks at a high level using these maps and I can't wait to try the maps out for myself hopefully this weekend.
I think this would be a lot more relevant if all the maps were 6m variations of currently used tournament maps. It would gameplay differences much more obvious.
On April 04 2012 19:47 Exactable wrote: I think this would be a lot more relevant if all the maps were 6m variations of currently used tournament maps. It would gameplay differences much more obvious.
No, no it would not. Have you played custom 6m maps and standard-converted maps? They weren't build with 6m in mind, and it shows.
On April 04 2012 21:35 ZeroWave wrote: Will there be VODs? If so, where will I be able to find them? BTW guys, great job so far with the FRB stuff, you're doing some amazing stuff out here.
Please make sure VODs and replays are available! FRB has gotten me really excited about SC2 again just when I was getting tired of alternating between two- and three-base strategies, and a collection of high-level games will be a fantastic resource for learning how the maps can be played, and also for pointing other players to examples of what FRB maps are like.
I'm super pumped about this tournament, looking forward to it more than any tourney since TSL3 ended :-D.
On April 04 2012 18:18 Youlovemeboo wrote: Damn, I wish this happening a lot sooner.
Well, in the meantime check out the SC2 channel "7m" if you want to play games on FRB maps with other passionate members of the community! Also, show your support for our awesome players who are attending IPL in a few days! They've been kind enough to join even though the first week of gameplay is during a hectic travel period with a major event, and we're really thankful for that.
On April 04 2012 18:37 Hall0wed wrote: Awesome, Ganzi fight! Gonna be great to see how the game looks at a high level using these maps and I can't wait to try the maps out for myself hopefully this weekend.
7m fighting!
On April 04 2012 19:47 Exactable wrote: I think this would be a lot more relevant if all the maps were 6m variations of currently used tournament maps. It would gameplay differences much more obvious.
As much as I wish there were enough official and popular maps that support the 6m playstyle, the fact that "standard" SC2 is balanced around 8m2g means that in most cases there simply isn't enough physical space or a high enough base count to truly support FRB games.
But don't fear, "Cross Point" is made by none other than IronManSC of ESV Mapmaking fame. Yes, the same IronManSC who created the season 7 ladder map Ohana!
And if you haven't seen any games on the map "Devolution", I urge you to try it out for yourself! It really is a fun map to play and offers a lot of expansion potential WITHOUT making them too easy to hold.
On April 04 2012 21:35 ZeroWave wrote: Will there be VODs? If so, where will I be able to find them? BTW guys, great job so far with the FRB stuff, you're doing some amazing stuff out here.
Please make sure VODs and replays are available! FRB has gotten me really excited about SC2 again just when I was getting tired of alternating between two- and three-base strategies, and a collection of high-level games will be a fantastic resource for learning how the maps can be played, and also for pointing other players to examples of what FRB maps are like.
I'm super pumped about this tournament, looking forward to it more than any tourney since TSL3 ended :-D.
In the meantime, you can watch a ton of FRB games of various levels on Senex's youtube as well as www.youtube.com/PullSC
Pull and Senex emerged as the two staples of the FRB casting community, so I urge you to show support for all their hard work by following/subscribing their channels!
Also, I don't want to "give anything away", but there might be some tangible benefit gained from following @FRBGrandTourney on Twitter. But again, I can't "give anything away".
On April 04 2012 22:22 JaKaTaK wrote: This is so awesome. I really believe that 6m 1hyg is the future of starcraft 2. I support you with everything I've got!
This is going to be so awesome! I'm defiantly going to be tuning into this not only for the pic matches that will come from this but also to check out the maps!
Haha yeah that idea just popped up to me that MULES will be more useful since more orbitals will be built... going to have to really strain as protoss in this tournament huh T.T Just to confirm, the bracket is a BO3 single elimination right?
Wish this were happening sooner, though its obvious that scheduling anytime is never easy... Hopefully in the future the schedules will be reversed when it comes to format. A few 8m2g games as nostalgic throwbacks lol
Also, I don't want to "give anything away", but there might be some tangible benefit gained from following @FRBGrandTourney on Twitter. But again, I can't "give anything away".
Great idea with this tournament. However, I think it would be great if there was an opportunity to donate to the prize pool. I would love to chip in, to make it even more interesting for the players.
On April 05 2012 03:43 Jedclark wrote: Doing this would mean you'd have to rebalance the game entirely, imo. The game is balanced around 8m2g, not 6m1hyg.
People keep saying this, and it's obvious they haven't played the new maps. Try it. It feels good.
I don't think we are going to be accepting any more prize pool donations from users just because it's the first event. However, we encourage everyone who wants to donate to follow the stream and subscribe to our youtubes to show support. If there's enough, and depending on the success of the first, a 2nd tournament may very well happen. In that case, you can definitely donate to that pool!
On April 05 2012 01:40 Brikken wrote: Great idea with this tournament. However, I think it would be great if there was an opportunity to donate to the prize pool. I would love to chip in, to make it even more interesting for the players.
I don't think we are going to be accepting any more prize pool donations from users just because it's the first event. However, we encourage everyone who wants to donate to follow the stream and subscribe to our youtubes to show support. If there's enough, and depending on the success of the first, a 2nd tournament may very well happen. In that case, you can definitely donate to that pool!
On April 05 2012 03:43 Jedclark wrote: Doing this would mean you'd have to rebalance the game entirely, imo. The game is balanced around 8m2g, not 6m1hyg.
People keep saying this, and it's obvious they haven't played the new maps. Try it. It feels good.
To be fair to Jedclark, we've believed all along that taking the FRB concept and plugging it directly into StarCraft II isn't going to lead to a perfectly balanced game. Part of the reason for this event, aside from spreading the idea itself, is to test the concept at a much higher level than the rest of us are capable of playing. We hope to find problems that this variant of SC2 has, and determine whether or not they are gamebreaking or simply need some tweaking. Also, we think it's a unique and fun way for hardworking pro players to earn some extra cash in a fairly volatile industry.
But I do agree, playing and observing games on these maps does feel good! Games are more open and that's largely due to the fact that one deathball-ish army can't be everywhere at once when you are taking more expansions. At the same time, static defenses are more powerful so it's not as if being caught out of position for 5 seconds is going to be a game-ending mistake!
On April 05 2012 18:53 sAsImre wrote: Quite sometimes since i've been that excited by sc2. Really hope your tournament gonna rock guys, obvioulsy it's held on NA?
On April 05 2012 18:53 sAsImre wrote: Quite sometimes since i've been that excited by sc2. Really hope your tournament gonna rock guys, obvioulsy it's held on NA?
The brackets will be released tomorrow on Friday, April 6th. Just so it's clear, this is last call! If you are interested in playing be sure to send me a message by midnight tonight, or if you have a favorite pro message then and encourage them to take part!
Btw the draft brackets we've done so far have been totally, unbelievably kick-ass! I can't wait to show you all the finals!
Sorry for the double post, but we have more news :D
As Yaki has been tantalizing you with, StarTale RainBOw has joined the tournament! Apparently these former Code S Korean Terrans really like the idea of FRB. XD
On April 06 2012 05:11 OldManSenex wrote: As Yaki has been tantalizing you with, StarTale RainBOw has joined the tournament! Apparently these Code S Korean Terrans really like the idea of FRB. XD
Ganzi and Rainbow are both former Code S Korean Terrans, and are interested enough to invest their time in the tournament. Obviously I don't speak for all Code S Korean Terrans, but thus far 100% of our Code S players for the FRB GT have been Terran!
I have a bad feeling most of the players have/will not practiced at all for this tournament and we will just see them playing like dorks as their build orders are compleatly messed up.
Oh wow Rainbow, Ganzi will be playing. dang, I can't wait for the "Terran OP in FRB" posts
edit- that sounded kind of dickish, I don't mean to downplay any of the non terran players in the tourney. I am so excited that such high level players want to participate in this
@Nate: We're doing a system of seeding and carefully looking at each matchup (as well as the possible combinations thereafter!) Don't worry, we won't do anything dumb like Ganzi vs. Rainbow Round 1. XD
Check out a really fantastic stream of one of our players, "SaroVati" from Area 51 Gaming. He's a high (top 30ish) Grandmaster Protoss player and does in-game and post-game commentary/analysis.
Great signups. Really sick that this is happening! I can't imagine how much excitement Barrin is feeling :D I hope the tourney goes well and the FRB movement gets some more recognition!
Hey everyone, check out www.twitch.tv/SaroVati to see one of our competitors areaSaroVati (high GM Protoss) taking on another Grandmaster player (Pride) in a few FRB games!
Having just played a few FRB maps for the first time, I have to say I am loving it! Really brings a BW feel, low eco, low army count, more engagements type of gameplay. Refreshing
We're proud to announce the official bracket for the tournament!
Thanks to all of the players for participating, and for all of the passionate members of the FRB community who inspired us to bring this event to life.
What started in our heads as a small, community based tournament with mainly Masters and Diamond league players turned into something larger than we ever imagined. We were thrilled to get our first big name player, and from there it kept piling up and getting bigger and bigger. We would like to thank "ChewToy" for his amazing contribution of the bulk of our prize pool since this was one of the biggest reasons for the tournament taking off!
To the community players who applied and were unable to be placed, we are truly sorry that there was not a spot for you in this tournament. While we've always known that we were going to prioritize professionals, Grandmasters, and so on down the leagues, it was still very difficult to only have two spots open for community signups. From the response that we have gotten so far, it seems likely that another FRB Grand Tournament will happen in the future, with a bigger prize pool and more spots for players, so please do not let this discourage you from signing up for future events.
Anyways, I hope you guys will all tune in when we go live at 8PM EST on Friday the 13th!
By the way: now that a startales player and Ganzi is in, you guys could try to lure a big community caster to cover it. Husky anyone? I wouldn't be surprised if somebody would like to do it
(I recognize of course that Senex and Pull have already got their feet in the door with their previous commentaries! Just mentioned it for the sake of publicity)
On April 06 2012 17:03 Natespank wrote: By the way: now that a startales player and Ganzi is in, you guys could try to lure a big community caster to cover it. Husky anyone? I wouldn't be surprised if somebody would like to do it
(I recognize of course that Senex and Pull have already got their feet in the door with their previous commentaries! Just mentioned it for the sake of publicity)
Frankly, we've reached out to numerous community casters and were pretty much disregarded, while Senex and Pull have been 500% passionate about this project and the FRB community from day 1... So while we would consider having someone on as a guest caster for a few games to boost publicity, I'm totally behind Senex and Pull and know they'll do a great job when it comes time to go live.
On April 06 2012 17:01 Natespank wrote: Just make sure VODs go up, some of us have jobs/school!
Don't worry, VODs will be going up on www.youtube.com/WiseOldSenex - he already has a ton of FRB content on his channel as well! Give he and Pull (www.youtube.com/PullSC) subscribes to show your support. When it comes time to attract sponsors for a potential next event, it will be huge if we can show companies solid subscriber numbers on our casters' Youtube channels as well as a lot of follows on our Twitter ( www.twitter.com/FRBGrandTourney )!
Hey everyone, in the first bit if additional content we'll be offering for the FRB GT I'd like to present an interview with Area 51 Gaming's SaroVati. Watch the video below to hear his experience with Starcraft 2, his introduction to to FRB and what he thinks of the variant so far!
I'm really interested in FRB maps. I checked out senex Youtube channel. I love spectating these games. I have to agree 6m seems to be the more exciting sc2 and i'm looking forward to the tourny.
On April 06 2012 23:31 Zephos wrote: What?! I'm up angainst ganzi first? This is some kind of sick joke right?
Wait a minute. I get to play ganzi! In a real game!
Best of luck to you sir! Make the FRB community proud!
MNDakota, we're really sorry that we couldn't offer more spots to passionate members of the FRB community like yourself. While we got a lot of pro/sponsored signups and a good amount of community signups, we didn't have enough players in total to stretch the tournament to 32, which meant only 2 "open" spots. We mulled over the idea of having a community "entry tournament" where the top 2 got the 2 spots, but ultimately ran out of time since we just started putting this event together last Thursday!
Hey guys sorry for the double post but I just figured I'd post a few games that Senex solo-casted last night. They are between one of our competitors, areaSaroVati (Top 30 GM Protoss, Area 51 Gaming) and Pride, who is a Grandmaster Terran not competing in the tournament.
Afterwards, SaroVati was kind enough to join our casters Senex and Pull for a brief interview!
Hype for this. So far every game I've seen everyone has played into the 'newness' of these maps, trying to play them the way Barrin et al say they should be played or just playing 8m stats. Can't wait to see some people try to play them creatively
I think a lot of it will depend on how much each player prepares specifically for FRB maps. In the interview with areaSaroVati, he mentioned that he believes he'll have an advantage over bigger name players since he can afford to take more time preparing on FRB maps with his teammates.
Also I want to give a shoutout to all of our competitors who played at IPL! Unfortunately, none made it to the final day of play but there were some impressive results. Thanks so much for agreeing to play during such a hectic time of the eSports year!
In particular, a shoutout to vileIllusion who won series against 3 Code S players in Oz, Zenio and Ryung! He's a streaming madman and an amazing Terran player so make sure to check him out at www.twitch.tv/Illusioncss . Not to mention he's a youngin' so we can expect huge things out of him in the future!
Even if FRB doesn't end up being a good fix for the game, or doesn't get applied mainstream, it's so awesome to see the community rally around a potential idea and getting such awesome names competing on these maps, trying 'em out for the betterment of starcraftkind
Yeah I totally agree pacifist...to see that the community can still be so strong and willing to accept crazy new ideas is totally awesome.
In other news, I just ordered a 3.5 ghz i7 2600k processor along with 16gb of ram so the stream quality is going to be top notch!!!! I'm really excited to see how it turns out :D
Folks, those of you with Twitter PLEASE help spread the FRB concept and this tourney around by following and retweeting/mentioning @FRBGrandTourney! Link to this thread, the bracket image, anything at all! The more exposure we can create, the more likely great players and sponsors will pay attention to us in the future if/when we put on a second, bigger/better event! We're at 47 followers but I'd like to hit at least 100 before we go live at 8PM EST on Friday night!
Thanks to our sponsorship from Peepmode we've upped the prize pool to 200$ and have a head start on the FRB GT 2 if the community has interest! Everyone should check out http://www.peepmode.com/ to see more information about this awesome mod and search 'peepmode' in the custom games menu to see all the maps that support it. There are a bunch of really useful observing tools, KOTH tools and betting systems to make playing FRB games with people a lot of fun. Be sure to thank Icculus for supporting the FRB GT and FRB in general. :D
Doing a sneak preview of what the streaming format will be like (as well as a cast with senex and I) for those of you who would like to contribute feedback! Tune in at twitch.tv/pullsc :D
I can't wait to watch these games -- I wish that were 8am EST, but that's just me being selfish.
@ Senex/Pull/Yaki -- In case you care, some of the updated information found in this thread's OP has not made it over to the z33k page (like the upped prize pool). I doubt you are going to pull a switcheroo and pocket the extra 50 (especially because that doesn't divide well by 3), but you should probably stay consistant across your media especially if you might plan furhter events.
On April 13 2012 20:40 -Archangel- wrote: I am excited for this, only problem is it starts at 02:00 in my time zone Probably will only be able to watch first game.
On April 13 2012 22:49 HypertonicHydroponic wrote: I can't wait to watch these games -- I wish that were 8am EST, but that's just me being selfish.
@ Senex/Pull/Yaki -- In case you care, some of the updated information found in this thread's OP has not made it over to the z33k page (like the upped prize pool). I doubt you are going to pull a switcheroo and pocket the extra 50 (especially because that doesn't divide well by 3), but you should probably stay consistant across your media especially if you might plan furhter events.
Oooohhh good point sir. We will definitely keep that in mind for future events and I'll send a message over to z33k to see if they can fix it. Thanks for calling it out!...and yes..i'm literally shaking with anticipation
Will there be interviews with the players or something? I'd be really curious to hear the pro's opinions on these maps once they've played a tournament on it!
and we'll definitely be doing more interviews with the players as they play their games. SaroVati's interview was before he played his match, but goes into how he ran into FRB, practiced for the tournament and his thoughts on the variant so far. Future interviews will definitely have questions about the maps and their experiences playing, so stay tuned!
I'm wondering how long the broadcast will go... How many matches will be cast and streamed? Will all the games have vods uploaded of them?
Is there some benefit for me to watch live or should I just watch the vods? I have something going on tonight which I can likely get out of but I'll probably end up just watching the vods. I'm passionate about this idea, though, and want to support it in any way I can.
Also, btw, I noticed a few out of date points to the Z33k page. In the "How can I get involved?" section it still says $150, and also it still says 6m and 7m for channels instead of FRB.
Edit: It would be great to do like winners interviews and interviews with all the players before the tournament and such. IDK if that's really possible for this tournament, but it's a nice feature to have, especially for this to get the players' thoughts on FRB.
On April 14 2012 08:41 Aunvilgod wrote: If you make a tournament like this again please make it earlier. 2 AM is quite late...
I know. I was gonna try to stay up for this but UK time plus being sick and having to work on thesis is a bad combo. I'm stoked to wake up to VODs tomorrow though. Best of luck to all the players
I must say it was quite impressive for a pretty "random" game (no offense to the players). Wondering if anyone from Blizzard is watching this. Probably not though.
Well rushes have to be played through in order for players to adapt. If FRB is to continue we have to go through this step again in order to achieve (hopefully) an higher goal.
senex man, you gotta talk more normally. the announcer voice is great with the pauses to place emphasis on what you just said, but talking like that all the time is a little annoying
the casting is really good however. I really really like 3 port banshee...
On April 14 2012 09:44 monitor wrote: Not the best start for showcasing 6m maps lol... I hope the rest of the games go well though!!
The first game was sick.
I might have missed an earlier game, but the first I saw was the 3port banshee all-in off of one base; it beat a three base protoss. Rainbow is considerably better though, so it doesn't really show anything.
On April 14 2012 09:44 monitor wrote: Not the best start for showcasing 6m maps lol... I hope the rest of the games go well though!!
The first game was sick.
I might have missed an earlier game, but the first I saw was the 3port banshee all-in off of one base; it beat a three base protoss. Rainbow is considerably better though, so it doesn't really show anything.
On April 14 2012 09:44 monitor wrote: Not the best start for showcasing 6m maps lol... I hope the rest of the games go well though!!
The first game was sick.
I might have missed an earlier game, but the first I saw was the 3port banshee all-in off of one base; it beat a three base protoss. Rainbow is considerably better though, so it doesn't really show anything.
Game one was a back and forth crazy game with like 8 basetrades and never a 200/200 engagement. It was kinda stereotypically what FRB is supposed to be lol
On April 14 2012 09:37 Quotidian wrote: what's the reasoning behind the high yield gas?
you have 75% minerals (6 instead of 8 patches) how do you provide 75% gas? solution is one high yield gas
The problem I see is that gas becomes cheaper this way, if you mine it more efficiently. This messes with the game design. To counter this, I suggest to put the gas further back, so that you need 4-5 (maybe 4.5?) workers to saturate it.
I'm watching this and it seems unnecessary. If you follow the korean scene their games have been going away from death ball fights more and more so altering the game like this is just a recipe for awful
On April 14 2012 10:14 Telsh wrote: I'm watching this and it seems unnecessary. If you follow the korean scene their games have been going away from death ball fights more and more so altering the game like this is just a recipe for awful
On April 14 2012 10:14 Telsh wrote: I'm watching this and it seems unnecessary. If you follow the korean scene their games have been going away from death ball fights more and more so altering the game like this is just a recipe for awful
On April 14 2012 10:14 Telsh wrote: I'm watching this and it seems unnecessary. If you follow the korean scene their games have been going away from death ball fights more and more so altering the game like this is just a recipe for awful
he's not wrong though, especially tvp has developed into a lot of small fights all game long..
TvP is going through a huge metagame shift because Terrans are having a tough time, and it's not just about more engagements, there's a lot more thought into securing more expansions which just diversifies gameplay. Look at the state of PvZ, you either 2 base all in or 3 base turtle because nothing else is viable. Balanced or not, PvZ is a stupid matchup and I'm really interested to see what FRB does with it.
Back to TvP though, Terrans are constantly pressuring Protoss to try and avoid that lategame deathball situation, which comes from Protoss having easy thirds on just about every tournament map. FRB changes that completely. The current TvP isn't constantly attacking to deny position, or force an army away, it's just constantly poking for vulnerabilities and hoping that the toss will make a mistake, it's not accomplishing anything specific. FRB would make far more opportunities for that kind of thing.
Look at the state of PvZ, you either 2 base all in or 3 base turtle because nothing else is viable. Balanced or not, PvZ is a stupid matchup and I'm really interested to see what FRB does with it.
although it was an entertaining game, it still looked like pvz to me...
On April 14 2012 09:37 Quotidian wrote: what's the reasoning behind the high yield gas?
you have 75% minerals (6 instead of 8 patches) how do you provide 75% gas? solution is one high yield gas
The problem I see is that gas becomes cheaper this way, if you mine it more efficiently. This messes with the game design. To counter this, I suggest to put the gas further back, so that you need 4-5 (maybe 4.5?) workers to saturate it.
I am curious can you pinpoint any problems this creates in game design? It was pretty much like this in BW btw, the problems you have in mind might all be present there. I hate to use that argument >.< but perhaps it is just different.
Well, I guess its pretty obvious. You are getting gas 50% cheaper (need 50% less workers). So that makes gas-intensive units cheaper than in 8m2g. (which they were designed for) Of course you are limited by the amount of bases/gases you have. But on 1 or 2 bases the effect will be quite big like seen in the first couple games here. An additional factor is that you are saturated pretty quickly, so you normally won't delay your gas as late as in 8m2g games.
Maybe it will just be a different game, maybe even better. I'm sure you are thinking about this as well. I'm just concerned .
On April 14 2012 11:16 tgun wrote: Maybe you could just position the gas so it takes 4 drones to optimally mine, instead of 3?
that was exactly my idea
The problem is no matter what you do, players could place the hatch/CC/nexus closer to the game and one space farther from the minerals if they wanted too. I suppose you coulldddd really spread the minerals out and put the gas in the middle, but that would look really weird and would be kinda bad imo.
On April 14 2012 11:16 tgun wrote: Maybe you could just position the gas so it takes 4 drones to optimally mine, instead of 3?
that was exactly my idea
The problem is no matter what you do, players could place the hatch/CC/nexus closer to the game and one space farther from the minerals if they wanted too. I suppose you coulldddd really spread the minerals out and put the gas in the middle, but that would look really weird and would be kinda bad imo.
Imo, moving your main base to be closer to the gas to make mineral mining much less efficient is, and will always be, a very stupid move. Simple layout for map makers would be something like
MMMMMM
CC
GAS (4 worker saturation)
People would be able to move closer to the gas, but it would make mining minerals much less efficient: having that as a trade-off, in my opinion, would be fine.
I think rainbows game was probably one of the best examples. There were tons of expansions everywhere and a lot of small battles here and there. It was fun.
I enjoyed the cast. Great job guys!! You're both quite good.
Barrin and I actually talked about this idea (mostly just removing some minerals from the main and natural) about a year or more ago. At that point I was really excited for the FRB movement. I still am, and I support it.
However, I don't really know how much these games proved the theory though... given, the game isn't even close to being figured out on this new setup though. From a lot of recent games in the GSL and IPL, 8m2g maps have been playing out really well- there are more expansions, harassment, and diversity than I saw in these games. I'll just say that its because the players are of a higher caliber in the GSL and IPL, plus the metagame is exponentially more stable.
The problem is that I am beginning to have doubts that 6m will discourage cheese and all-ins; I'm starting to think that 6m actually encourages cheese because there is more of an opportunity to punish a player for expanding. Maybe it stays the same though, because expanding or building an army still costs the same in both versions.
Is it worth trying to implement in HotS? Maybe. The game will probably have to be rebalanced and completely re-figured-out by the players again anyway. 6m maps would probably just make the game better. That said, I do think that there are more fundamental issues with the game that are more prominant than 8m2g maps. Imo 8m will work as the metagame becomes more and more stable, as we are seeing in the GSL and very current tournaments.
On April 14 2012 13:17 Pull wrote: I think rainbows game was probably one of the best examples. There were tons of expansions everywhere and a lot of small battles here and there. It was fun.
Also the delta braxis game with tgun & sarovoti -- there were a decent number of bases, harass, trades, skirmishes... it was a fun game to watch, especially the trick ending. While some games definately seemed quick, part of the point was to see if the players could find what the effective cheeses are and see if there might be also effective counter play. Obviously, we are not going to see all of that in the same game -- it is going to take a number of games before we start to see a real metagame pattern emerge. That said, I still think in general the games tended to demonstrate the goals of FRB maps. Even the ones where there wasn't a lot of scouting or harass seemed to kind of "negatively prove" that the extra time multitasking with scouting or pressure or multiprong attacks could have made a big difference in those games. (That might be true of 8m games as well, but it definately seems like more of an option in 6m.)
Despite the first high yield gas giving a decent boost in gas early on for not much mineral input, I've felt from all of my watching and testing that actually, except for maybe some very early timings which I don't know are really viable against mineral heavy counter play, the gas levels off not too far into the late early game or early mid game. The proportion of mining is still the same, and after getting out those initial gas units or upgrades you are really not pulling in so much gas for the investment. Also, securing more gas is not really that much less mineral intesive because getting a new base costs more in relation to the per base income.
For P & T: 3 x 8m base = 400 x3 + 75 x6 + 50 x18 = 2550 4 x 6m base = 400 x4 + 75 x4 + 50 x12 = 2500
For Z: 3 x 8m base = 300 x3 + 75 x6 + 50 x18 = 2250 4 x 6m base = 300 x4 + 75 x4 + 50 x12 = 2100
Now that doesn't take into account the supply costs difference in terms of minerals (and I think the extra supply being used toward army is actually a good thing), but the necessity of extra bases really helps to even out the cost for equal gas income between 6m and 8m games. Add to that the fact that you will be more spread out and vulnerable to harass, and I think you are on pretty even footing without having to tweak things like gas mining distance.
Anyway, that's just my opinion as I've been playing the maps, watching, and testing in the galaxy editor. I was initially testing out other ideas but I think I've convinced myself against the other ways of making the FRB concept work out. I think the 6m1hyg is really probably the best way to go about doing it without some crazy changes.
Actually, I have a question for the tournament producers/Barrin -- I got to watch most of the tournament last night, and every so often I checked on the number of people watching... it seemed to peak near 220.
I'm sure there will be a number of other who will check out the VODS who did not watch live, and some like me who might go back and study some of the VODS even though I watched live.
What is the target you are shooting for roughly guestimated from all of the different number sources you are looking for to declare this tournament experiment a success? And beyond that what is the target where it is such a success that you are willing to put on another tournament? And beyond that what is the target where the next tournament is a liitle bit bigger than this one?
Also, is there anything being done to communicate with players to get their reactions on the 6m style? I know people could just come onto TeamLiquid and post, but what about Rainbow and Ganzi who might not have the best english? I would be very interested to see a feedback section somewhere from both the winners and the losers. Obviously, it will be somewhat theorycrafted, but it will be theorycrafted from very high level players who will have actually "been there, done that" to a certain degree.
On April 14 2012 23:45 HypertonicHydroponic wrote: Actually, I have a question for the tournament producers/Barrin -- I got to watch most of the tournament last night, and every so often I checked on the number of people watching... it seemed to peak near 220.
I'm sure there will be a number of other who will check out the VODS who did not watch live, and some like me who might go back and study some of the VODS even though I watched live. What is the target you are shooting for roughly guestimated from all of the different number sources you are looking for to declare this tournament experiment a success? And beyond that what is the target where it is such a success that you are willing to put on another tournament? And beyond that what is the target where the next tournament is a liitle bit bigger than this one?
Also, is there anything being done to communicate with players to get their reactions on the 6m style? I know people could just come onto TeamLiquid and post, but what about Rainbow and Ganzi who might not have the best english? I would be very interested to see a feedback section somewhere from both the winners and the losers. Obviously, it will be somewhat theorycrafted, but it will be theorycrafted from very high level players who will have actually "been there, done that" to a certain degree.
This is something we haven't talked much about. When we started out, our intention was just to have a small community based tournament, and if we were LUCKY we might get one or two players from some of the smaller teams. All three of us (myself, Pull & Senex) are new at what we're doing - this is my first organized tournament, and their first casted tournament.
Around the 45 minute mark of our stream last night, we actually had about ~475 people viewing live. By about the 3.5 hour mark (when NASL was also airing) we still had 175 people, so we're pretty happy about that. I could have done a much better job marketing the first week of play - for instance, I only made a Reddit announcement 6 hours before we went live, which I now see was very dumb. Part of that has to do with the fact that I'm in the last 2 weeks of my senior year of college (thesis, and capstone projects out the wazoo) and also with a lackluster marketing on my part.
The amount of community support - people offering to add to the prize pool, sponsors, and player involvement - for a spur-of-the-moment tournament that was organized in a few days shows us that an FRB Grand Tournament 2 is quite likely.
There are really only a few things that would deter us from putting on another one... 1. The community says "OK this sucks after all, we don't want to see this anymore" and it is reflected in both the feedback and the viewer count 2. Some MAJOR imbalanced strategy is discovered and is used by all players of that race (we don't want sponsors/community members to contribute money to a broken tournament!) 3. The three of us all turn into bunny rabbits and spend the rest of our lives gnawing on celery and carrots (wouldn't be the worst life, so long as the veggies are fresh!)
That being said, we're only 1/4 of the way through this, and a lot can go wrong from now to then.
TL;DR - Considering where we started, we're really happy with the viewer count, and it's a good sign for future FRB Grand Tournaments so long as nothing crazy/bunny-related happens.
On April 14 2012 13:42 monitor wrote: I enjoyed the cast. Great job guys!! You're both quite good.
Barrin and I actually talked about this idea (mostly just removing some minerals from the main and natural) about a year or more ago. At that point I was really excited for the FRB movement. I still am, and I support it.
However, I don't really know how much these games proved the theory though... given, the game isn't even close to being figured out on this new setup though. From a lot of recent games in the GSL and IPL, 8m2g maps have been playing out really well- there are more expansions, harassment, and diversity than I saw in these games. I'll just say that its because the players are of a higher caliber in the GSL and IPL, plus the metagame is exponentially more stable.
The problem is that I am beginning to have doubts that 6m will discourage cheese and all-ins; I'm starting to think that 6m actually encourages cheese because there is more of an opportunity to punish a player for expanding. Maybe it stays the same though, because expanding or building an army still costs the same in both versions.
Is it worth trying to implement in HotS? Maybe. The game will probably have to be rebalanced and completely re-figured-out by the players again anyway. 6m maps would probably just make the game better. That said, I do think that there are more fundamental issues with the game that are more prominant than 8m2g maps. Imo 8m will work as the metagame becomes more and more stable, as we are seeing in the GSL and very current tournaments.
First of all thank's to everyone involved in making this tournament happen! I'm having a lot of fun following all of this develop. It seems to me like the games so far didn't really show the intended effects yet. Of course this mode of playing is rather unexplored tho so every comment is very subjective at this point. But my first impression was that the games played out similar to 8m2g, just more slow-paced economically and equally brutal when it came to cheese. Aside from the numerous cheese-based games there were some interesting games that provided some food for thought:
- Game 1 Rainbow vs Puck: crazy back and forth obviously and 2 basetrades in one game. This seems to be a sideeffect that could be made stronger in FRB, because while multi-pronged drops are hugely effective with the spread-out-ness of FRB, combined with the lower economy it also leaves the player that goes for the agression with almost no standing army to defend his own bases. So it might be the case that as a result we will see more basetrade scenarios as it might be easier to just go counter attack seeing your own expansions taking a lot of damage. Also this is of course personal preference but I dont enjoy watching basetrade games that much, but others might like it so I'll leave it at that.
- Tgun vs Sarovati Mutas are obviously still strong, and I felt like the games played out in a similar fashion to usual zvps right now, with the zerg player taking the map and preventing the protoss player from ever moving out. Protoss has to turtle on however big of an area he can defend and try to hit the magic army. And the game traditionally ends with infestor/broodlord and the protoss trying to desperately land the archon toilet. This just makes me think that after all slowing down economy might not really change the dynamic in this matchup. Also the one single game-deciding battle in this case still exists because zerg and protoss try to circumvent direct conflict as long as possible - zerg because he doesnt want to fight directly, and protoss because he can't just push with his army because it would be game-ending if he loses the fight.
Overall my concerns boil down to this: with lower income, dividing your army also becomes more of a risk as the split off part of your army is a bigger part of the total army count. Specially protoss might be actually encouraged to still try and keep their army concentrated in one spot to maintain the needed critical mass. Am I probably missing something here?
Anyways with all this said I love what FRB is trying to accomplish and couldn't agree more with it's goals, so I'll be happy to continue watching things progress. I just hope the games will get good enough to really get this whole FRB thing going in a sense that people pick up on it as being superior to 8m2g (myself included I guess).
So everyone knows for future scheduling, I'm going to try to get them up within 24 hours of each broadcast. I'm sorry it takes that long, but I need do some noticable editing and wait for youtube to process them before everyone can check them out. Thanks for your patience, and I hope you enjoy!
We got through 6 of the 8 matches last night, and will be casting the last 2 asap. We'll make a post when they're ready and post them in the same playlist.
P.S. While all these games were really good, I particularly recommend Game 1 between ST_RainBow and PuCK and Game 2 between areaSaroVati and GoSuTgun. They were absurdly awesome.
I don't know about TvP being back and forth recently. I've seen two recent boring PvTs.
The games I recently saw (MC vs Virus + Parting vs Polt), it was just a big ball of death is going back and forth vs another big ball of death (that Parting vs Polt game was actually a good example of what I mean - they waited until nearly 200/200 then proceeded to simply attack the same exact spot back and forth). Was it back and forth? Yep. Did it take place all over the map? Nope. So, it's not really the back and forth full of action like BW or that Rainbow vs Puck game.
Now I haven't seen too much of 6m1hg but I really liked Rainbow vs Puck game 1. It was what I liked and it resembled BW.
Recent PvT in Brood War (Spoilers for the proleague finals): (Edit - I accidentally posted the wrong video previously, here's Flash vs Bisu) + Show Spoiler +
Also as for high yield gas being too effective (well if they are)?
An easy fix is to alter the gas amount back to 4 but simply reduce the mining time for gas by 40% (or some other percent). This would mean you can obtain gas faster but you need to invest more workers per gas.
Normally (under "Ability > Gather", you need to do this for all three worker units) the unit takes 1 second to mine gas. So if you reduce the time (under "Resource Time Multiplier (Vespene)") to 0.6, it'd take 5 workers or so to saturate the gas (and that combined with changing the gas amount back to 4 per trip, it'll be balanced out; well sort of. Actually try changing the mining time for gas to 0.65 instead which would mean that 4 workers will mine gas at approx the same rate, the 5th worker will only provide a slight increase in gas).
(The numbers can be adjusted. Reducing the time to 0.6 (by 40%) and allowing 5 workers to mine a gas at a time would mean approximately 70% more gas intake which is 20% higher than 3 on a high yield gas. Reducing the time by 25% (which means 4 workers can saturate a gas) would mean only around 33% increased gas intake while saturated. So I guess to mimic 50% gas in take, try reducing gas mining time to 0.65 or so. This would require 5 workers to saturate a gas but the 5th worker will only slightly speed up gas intake).
Since it's a gameplay change, you'd want to put the change in a mod (then publish) and place it all the maps (by making each map have the dependency/mod loaded).
On April 15 2012 12:13 Goldfish wrote: I like the games.
I don't know about TvP being back and forth recently. I've seen two recent boring PvTs.
The games I recently saw (MC vs Virus + Parting vs Polt), it was just a big ball of death is going back and forth vs another big ball of death (that Parting vs Polt game was actually a good example of what I mean - they waited until nearly 200/200 then proceeded to simply attack the same exact spot back and forth). Was it back and forth? Yep. Did it take place all over the map? Nope. So, it's not really the back and forth full of action like BW or that Rainbow vs Puck game.
Now I haven't seen too much of 6m1hg but I really liked Rainbow vs Puck game 1. It was what I liked and it resembled BW.
Recent PvT in Brood War (Spoilers for the proleague finals): + Show Spoiler +
Also as for high yield gas being too effective (well if they are)?
Okay, admittedly, I don't follow BW. I played sporadically back in the day so I know the units, but I don't know the strategy and matchups.
However, I don't understand how your link is different than the "big ball of death going back and forth vs another big ball of death" with a smattering of harassment. You had DT harass, high templar drops, and because of the effectiveness of the harass, the orange protoss player basically took his big ball of death (temp/zeal/dragoon) and a-moved into teal's base. All the action took place on the bottom left -> top right diagonal corridor OR at some base (due to a drop or harass), similar to any SC2 game. Don't get me wrong, I found it awesomely exciting - the casting was top notch, and the players played well. I just don't see how it is any more exciting than MKP vs Parting or other SC2 matches.
One thing I've been wondering a little bit about this tournament is: where is LaLuSh? I mean, he is pretty much the inspiration for the whole FRB movement and even commented in the Breadth of Gameplay thread. He should definately be a part of the next tournament, imho. =D
Hey everyone, we're going to be casting the final Ro16 games between Fitzyhere and Goswser in about 10 minutes as well as the games between ClashShew and Heavenslight. Feel free to tune in as we get these out of the way before fridays broadcast!!!
If you haven't already, be sure to check out the rest of the vods from the Ro16 @ youtube.com/wiseoldsenex
The VoD's for the whole FRB Grand Tournament Round of 16 are now UP! We got 6 of the 8 matches done live, and just finished up the final two sets with coL.Gowser vs cvg.FitzyHere and HeavensLight vs ClashShew. You can start with Game 1 of each of the matches here:
and:
To watch the whole Round of 16 check out the full playlist here. If you like the casting be sure to subscribe, it really helps out the tournament and will be really important for the FRB GT 2. :D Thanks to everyone who already has!
The anti-spoiler vods really aren't very effective. You can tell they aren't real games because they are the only ones which look like that FRB logo. Also, when I look at the videos uploaded in order (how they appear on my youtube homepage,) most of the non-spoiler vods are at the top because you uploaded them later. It's really obvious when a game hasn't been played.
What do you think about doing an open qualifier for these events in the future, instead of basing the selection on ladder rank?
Just a quick reminder to everyone that we will be casting the Round of 8 tonight at 8pm EST/5pm PST! We're very excited to see how the matches went and can't wait to analyze them with you. Be sure to tune in for the broadcast!
Just reminding everyone that in a little less than an hour we have the Round of 8 of the FRB GT starting! If you can tear yourself away from MLG, the schedule is:
ST_RainBOw (T) vs GoSutgun (Z) GoSuviBE (Z) vs NrGLuckyFool (T) vileIllusion (R) vs cvgFitzyHere (Z)
Unfortunately because of travel and schedule conflicts coLGanZi (T) vs ClashShew (P) will be delayed till next week. We've been working with the players to get a schedule for the upcoming weeks and there shouldn't be any more delays, but because of MLG it wasn't possible to get all the sets played for the live broadcast.
I also highly recommend game 2 between ST_Rainbow and GoSuTgun as well as 2nd game between GoSuViBe and nrgLuckyFool. The links are below.
ST_Rainbow vs GoSuTgun Game 2:
GosuViBe vs nrgLuckyFool Game 2:
If you like the games be sure to subscribe and support the FRB GT. Also subscribe Pull's twitch channel to www.twitch.tv/pullsc and the twitter for the FRB Grand Tournament at @FRBGrandTourney.
Hey everyone, the FRB Grand Tournament got a spot in the NASL North American Update with Frodan! The FRB GT part starts at 1:25, and you can check it out here:
A pretty fair summary I'd say. There definitely has been some fast early aggression, though I'm not quite sure I'd call it cheese. None of the really cheesy strategies like cannon rushing, proxy 2 rax or a 6 pool have been seen in the tournament so far, but I do understand their point. They do mention how awesome some of the games have been (ST_Rainbow vs. PuCK was so well played!) and I hope we can give them even more entertaining games in the upcoming rounds. :D
We also go live for the Semi-Finals on Friday the 27th at 8pm Eastern before wrapping the tournament with the finals on May 4th, also at 8pm Eastern. You can watch at www.cybersports.tv or www.twitch.tv/pullsc
Thanks to all our amazing fans and all the people who have been tuning in. You guys are what makes this event possible, and we can't say enough how much we appreciate your support.
Ganzi is going to be playing against ClashShew on Wednesday the 25th and we'll probably be casting the games then. Unfortunately he's been too busy with MLG and travel to get the games in, but he'll be able to play on the 25th and, if he moves into the next round, play the next set that same day, so there shouldn't be any delays in the Semi-Finals or Finals.
On April 23 2012 12:44 OldManSenex wrote: Hey everyone, the FRB Grand Tournament got a spot in the IPL North American Update with Frodan! The FRB GT part starts at 1:25, and you can check it out here:
A pretty fair summary I'd say. There definitely has been some fast early aggression, though I'm not quite sure I'd call it cheese. None of the really cheesy strategies like cannon rushing, proxy 2 rax or a 6 pool have been seen in the tournament so far, but I do understand their point. They do mention how awesome some of the games have been (ST_Rainbow vs. PuCK was so well played!) and I hope we can give them even more entertaining games in the upcoming rounds. :D
We also go live for the Semi-Finals on Friday the 27th at 8pm Eastern before wrapping the tournament with the finals on May 4th, also at 8pm Eastern. You can watch at www.cybersports.tv or www.twitch.tv/pullsc
Thanks to all our amazing fans and all the people who have been tuning in. You guys are what makes this event possible, and we can't say enough how much we appreciate your support.
As far as like an open would go, I think doing an open qualifier makes the most sense. Like having an open qualifier, combined with seeding some players from the previous tournament, and some invites for other players (like pros who would be less inclined to play if they had to spend the time going through an open qualifier, but might play if they are invited to the ro32 or ro16 and there's a nice prize pool.)
That's what I was thinking anyway. Just thought I'd mention it.
My only disappointment with this tournament was that during the cast of myself v rainbow game 1, the casters didn't notice I was using overlords w/ drops to pick up drones as a way to dodge hellion harass.
On April 24 2012 09:22 tgun wrote: My only disappointment with this tournament was that during the cast of myself v rainbow game 1, the casters didn't notice I was using overlords w/ drops to pick up drones as a way to dodge hellion harass.
<3
Yeah, I thought that was so cool when I saw you doing it. I was surprised it wasn't mentioned by the casters.
I thought we did mention that, but apparently we got distracted by something else. I noticed it during the cast and it was a really nice move. Definitely looking forward to what you can pull off against ViBe. There's gonna be a lot riding on that match, not only for advancement, but because it's a teamkill.
How are you guys prepping for that? Playing with other teammates? Got any 'spezial taticks' prepped? :D
Due to travel and player schedules, GanZi's series vs. ClashShew from the round of 8 was only played a few days ago, and will be casted tonight! However, the winners' match against vileIllusion was unable to be played in time, and will be released some time over the weekend. Sorry for the inconvenience!
Schedule:
coLGanZi vs. ClashShew (Round of 8) GoSutgun vs. GoSuviBE (Semi Finals)
We're proud to announce that our sponsor Youre.pro has chipped in so that we can bring YOU, our amazing viewers, prizes to thank you for your support! In case you don't know, Youre.pro is a site where you earn their online currency (Youre.pro credits) by wagering them against other Starcraft 2 players! This is a great chance for you to play Starcraft with more than just ladder points on the line! Using these credits, you can redeem for great prizes such as a Korean Starcraft 2 account, a GSL pass, Battlefield 3, Amazon.com vouchers, and more!
How to enter...
1) Make a profile on the SC2 wagering site "www.Youre.Pro" 2) On Twitter, send a tweet to @FRBGrandTourney and @CybersportsTV with the following information:
-Your prediction for who will win the finals -Your prediction for who will win the 3rd place match -A link to your newly created Youre.pro profile -The hashtag "#SC2"
Everyone who gets both players correct and has a link to their Youre.pro profile will be entered into a drawing, where you can win one of three prizes!
Prizes
Grand Prize: 5,000 Youre.Pro credits ($50 value) - enough to redeem for a Korean SC2 account! Second place: 1,500 Youre.pro credits ($15 value) Third place: 1,000 Youre.pro credits ($10 value)
Winners will be announced directly following the broadcast of the Finals on Friday, May 4th!
Please show your support for Youre.pro for supporting eSports and the FRB Grand Tourney!
Hey all, the VoD's for the end of the Round of 8 and set 1 of the Semi-Finals are up. You can check out the first of the finalists by seeing who wins the set below as GoSuViBe battles GoSuTgun in ZvZ series!
Also check out coLGanZi's games against ClashShew starting here:
should be played pretty shortly. GanZi's travel to MLG Spring Arena and his subsequent travel back to Korea put a little bit of a kink in the scheduling last week and we're just trying to get caught up. Now, GanZi and Illusion are having a bit of trouble working out the vastly different time zones to find a good time for both to play, but we're trying to get these games out ASAP!
I'm really sorry for the inconvenience and hope you'll continue to support our tournament despite the hiccups we've had with getting the games delivered and casted on time!
Also, just a reminder that once the games are released, there will be a giveaway for YOU THE FANS!
Youre.Pro Fan Giveaway!!!
We're proud to announce that our sponsor Youre.pro has chipped in so that we can bring YOU, our amazing viewers, prizes to thank you for your support! In case you don't know, Youre.pro is a site where you earn their online currency (Youre.pro credits) by wagering them against other Starcraft 2 players! This is a great chance for you to play Starcraft with more than just ladder points on the line! Using these credits, you can redeem for great prizes such as a Korean Starcraft 2 account, a GSL pass, Battlefield 3, Amazon.com vouchers, and more!
How to enter...
1) Make a profile on the SC2 wagering site "www.Youre.Pro" 2) On Twitter, send a tweet to @FRBGrandTourney and @CybersportsTV with the following information:
-Your prediction for who will win the finals -Your prediction for who will win the 3rd place match -A link to your newly created Youre.pro profile -The hashtag "#SC2"
Everyone who gets both players correct and has a link to their Youre.pro profile will be entered into a drawing, where you can win one of three prizes!
Prizes
Grand Prize: 5,000 Youre.Pro credits ($50 value) - enough to redeem for a Korean SC2 account! Second place: 1,500 Youre.pro credits ($15 value) Third place: 1,000 Youre.pro credits ($10 value)
Winners will be announced directly following the broadcast of the Finals on Friday, May 4th!
Please show your support for Youre.pro for supporting eSports and the FRB Grand Tourney!
The finals will be between GoSuviBE and the winner of the semifinal matchup of vileIllusion vs. coLGanZi! You can expect the Illusion/GanZi matches to be cast very shortly and released via VODs.
Hey everyone, just a quick breakdown of how the broadcast on Friday will go:
We're going to be casting the 2nd semi-final, VileIllusion vs coL.GanZi, during the week (there will be an announcement of when we go live) and will post the winner for everyone to make their predictions for the giveaway.
However, we feel that the awesome games between GoSuTgun and GoSuVibe, along with VileIllusion and coL.GanZi haven't gotten the showing they deserve due to the scheduling hiccups. Therefore, at 7pm on Friday we'll be doing a preshow where we rebroadcast the two semi-final matches and talk about their path through the FRB Grand Tournament, introducing new viewers to the event and building excitement among our long-time fans.
After that when the show goes live we'll start with a 'Pimpest Plays' section where the three of us running the tournament each pick our favorite highlight from the tournament and bring the very best bits to you. Then we'll be moving into the Third Place match, followed by the Grand Finals! :D
In easy-to-read format:
7:00 PM: Preshow of the two semi-finals with the stories of how the players reached this point. 8:00 PM: Pimpest plays section showing the very best bits of the tournament thus far. 8:15* PM: The Third Place match! 9:00* PM: The Grand Finals!!
Hey everyone, in 10 minutes (1am eastern time) we'll be going live to cast the games between VileIllusion and coL.GanZi from the Semi-Finals of the FRB GT! If you don't get a chance to watch live have no fear, the VoD's will be uploaded shortly and there will be a rebroadcast of the semi-finals at 7pm on Friday, May 4th before we move into the Finals and Third Place matches at 8pm.
I just watched vibe vs tgun and want to add one little thing: it's not as stealthy to use a video thumbnail showing a protoss base for game 3 of a zvz Anways sorry for the nitpicking, thanks for your work guys.
On May 05 2012 05:17 Natespank wrote: finals coming up. My money's on Ganzi Hopefully good maps like Barrin's 1st one.
Make sure you get your predictions in on Twitter!
Tweet "@FRBGrandTourney @CyberSportsTV (FinalsWinner) (3rdWinner) youre.pro/profile/userprofile/Yourusername #SC2" and if you're right, you can win a Korean SC2 account or other prizes from Youre.pro!
Keep in mind guys that we are currently rebroadcasting the semi-finals and will be continuing on to the finals pretty soon so keep tuning in! Tell your friends and random strangers!!!!
I still cannot BELIEVE the turnout we got! Nearly 1000 people tuned in to the FRB GT Grand Finals, an overwhelming show of support for the project. Thanks so much to everyone who watched, contributed, sponsored and played, it was only through all of us together that tonight turned into the fantastic event it was.
The FRB Grand Tournament 2 will definitely be in the works, and an announcement will be made as soon as we have the details ready to go. We're always looking to improve, so you should leave any feedback for the FRB GT 2 in this thread and we'll work hard to make sure it's even better than this one.
I'm editing the recordings right now and should have the VoD's up shortly. Thanks again!
I personally really really disliked the standard maps customized to 6m- tal darim and shakuras. The 6m maps were WAY more interesting to watch, especially devolution and cross point.
Great tourney, i'll watch the next one.
constructive feedback: for the thumbnail for every single game, use a black screen or the frb logo, so every one is the same and you can't predict whether the set was played- and randomize the lengths of the fake games on youtube. Also, Beware of broadcasting days where only like 2 games are casted, those feel like a letdown. Player interviews could be cool too.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i42.tinypic.com/16a8yz8.png)
![[image loading]](http://i39.tinypic.com/18ljc3.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/48irC.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WfrAp.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KDk7O.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i44.tinypic.com/10scfvs.png)
) is another great way to get the ideas of FRB out there. ![[image loading]](http://i40.tinypic.com/sdeikk.png)
You can typically type 6m1hyg and search and find them. However, your best bet would be to join the "7m" channel on SC2 and ask / discuss it with the players there!![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/aG4UU.png)
FRB Grand Tournament![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nksa5.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QjEXv.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/if5FO.jpg)
Can't wait to watch the matches tonight.
