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[GSL] 2012 Season 1 Code S Ro16 Group C - Page 111

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
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Heavenly
Profile Joined January 2011
2172 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-08 11:52:06
February 08 2012 11:51 GMT
#2201
Jjaki dominating this game. Chargelot/archon v MMMG nearing max lulz. Huge storms necessary I suppose.
"thx for all my fans i'm many lost but cheer for me .. i lost but so happy my power is fans i will good play this is promise my fans" - oGsMC
NHY
Profile Joined October 2010
1013 Posts
February 08 2012 11:52 GMT
#2202
Oh look, pressure while taking 3rd.

Clearly T imba
Seeker *
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts
February 08 2012 11:52 GMT
#2203
On February 08 2012 20:50 keioh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 08 2012 20:48 Seeker wrote:
On February 08 2012 20:47 Cereb wrote:
On February 08 2012 20:46 pPingu wrote:
On February 08 2012 20:43 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:
Mc will take this title! For the Sad Zealot!!


I want a happy zealot if MC wins



The zealot is apparantly always sad on TL... even when they perform better than Zerg.

The Happy Marine
The Sad Zealot

........


The Neutral Zergling?


No, the suicidal baneling. Yeah,it was given with the game.

Creepy Zergling is better imo
ModeratorPeople ask me, "Seeker, what are you seeking?" My answer? "Sleep, damn it! Always sleep!"
TL+ Member
andaylin
Profile Joined August 2010
United States10830 Posts
February 08 2012 11:52 GMT
#2204
On February 08 2012 20:51 zhurai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 08 2012 20:50 andaylin wrote:
I'm going to start incorporating factory micro. i'm probably going to fuck up and FF my own units LOL

protoss: "o y thank you"

probably best against zealot+archon type mixes than the other compositions imo

yeah, screw zealots :D
"Hard work beats talent when talent fails to work hard." - Kevin Durant
-UMADIMSTYLIN-
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Cuba292 Posts
February 08 2012 11:52 GMT
#2205
Pretty much how every macro PvT game should be played. Protoss turtle 3 base, leave units at each mineral line to deny drops, chrono upgrades move out at max with 3-3 timing and win. Good to see protoss finally doing this instead of weird 2 base Collosus builds where they overextend at 150 supply and lose all their units.
Cereb
Profile Joined November 2011
Denmark3388 Posts
February 08 2012 11:52 GMT
#2206
On February 08 2012 20:49 Seeker wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 08 2012 20:48 Seeker wrote:
On February 08 2012 20:47 Cereb wrote:
On February 08 2012 20:46 pPingu wrote:
On February 08 2012 20:43 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:
Mc will take this title! For the Sad Zealot!!


I want a happy zealot if MC wins



The zealot is apparantly always sad on TL... even when they perform better than Zerg.

The Happy Marine
The Sad Zealot

........


The Neutral Zergling?

Oh wait wait nvm. I already came up with a better on in the past:

The "Creepy" Zergling


haha. I like these Angry or lonely would be good too!
"Until the very very top in almost anything, all that matters is how much work you put in. The only problem is most people can't work hard even at things they do enjoy, much less things they don't have a real passion for. -Greg "IdrA" Fields
zhurai
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States5660 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-08 11:52:46
February 08 2012 11:52 GMT
#2207
On February 08 2012 20:52 Seeker wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 08 2012 20:50 keioh wrote:
On February 08 2012 20:48 Seeker wrote:
On February 08 2012 20:47 Cereb wrote:
On February 08 2012 20:46 pPingu wrote:
On February 08 2012 20:43 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:
Mc will take this title! For the Sad Zealot!!


I want a happy zealot if MC wins



The zealot is apparantly always sad on TL... even when they perform better than Zerg.

The Happy Marine
The Sad Zealot

........


The Neutral Zergling?


No, the suicidal baneling. Yeah,it was given with the game.

Creepy Zergling is better imo

I guess I'm Confused Semi Random

..........

.___.
Twitter: @zhurai | Site: http://zhurai.com
bouhko
Profile Joined January 2012
193 Posts
February 08 2012 11:52 GMT
#2208
On February 08 2012 20:52 NHY wrote:
Oh look, pressure while taking 3rd.

Clearly T imba

QFT
u sixpoll ?
ChaosTerran
Profile Joined August 2011
Austria844 Posts
February 08 2012 11:52 GMT
#2209
On February 08 2012 20:48 Fjodorov wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 08 2012 20:42 ChaosTerran wrote:
On February 08 2012 20:37 Heavenly wrote:
On February 08 2012 20:34 ChaosTerran wrote:
On February 08 2012 20:32 Heavenly wrote:
On February 08 2012 20:29 ChaosTerran wrote:
On February 08 2012 20:25 WigglingSquid wrote:
On February 08 2012 20:21 ChaosTerran wrote:
On February 08 2012 20:12 WigglingSquid wrote:
Poor GanZi. Just dying to every small early or mid-game timing in this group...

On February 08 2012 20:12 mvtaylor wrote:
[quote]

I think MorroW very obviously put forward his case as to why a build shouldn't allow you to get ahead both economically and in army.

Yes, but he did so after his first post; anyway, I was not talking about MorroW specifically, but of the pros' general attitude.
I will take their opinion as almost granted in most cases, but if they go to the length of being arrogant I will be much less adamant about defending them.


No he didn't. What the hell man. he explained perfectly well why this strat is imabalanced. Just because you can't grasp this simple concept doesn't mean that he didn't explain it, it just means that you simply don't understand what he's talking about. which is a problem on your end not his. If you don't understand the game, then don't discuss it. sick of noobs complaining about people who "dont explain it well enough" this isn't pre-school dude, if you dont understand it you simply dont know enough about SC2 or RTS games in general.

I am not an idiot. I might have missed his true first post, or you might have. Please refrain from jumping on the offense before considering other options.

And here it is. You are quite wrong, because this does not explain absolutely anything:

just look at this, toss takes 3base and can just go and kill terran who sits defensive on 2base and gets bunkers

if you dont see the problem in this and why its abusive and obviously too strong i dont know what to say

you talk about mc doing this best in the world and thats why it only works for him.
well in reality most tosses play like this, vs zerg and terran and most tosses are very successful. thats why they are doing this. and no its not hard to do, its pretty easy in fact to execute.
anyone who understands rts and sc2 on a deep level would agree with me, no evidence is needed to "prove" that this is not that hard to do that only MC in the world can be successful with it


Yes, it does? You can take 3 base get an economic advantage and kill the terran at the same time without being "all-in" even if he has bunkers up pretty much is imbalanced. Just like Morrow said. How can you possibly argue that this is balanced? this goes against the very nature of rts games.


Terran can do the exact same thing to protoss and zerg lmao. Reactor hellion into third base gives terran a third base before zerg, and quick third command center is also becoming very popular for terrans versus protoss. There was a game, maybe with Puzzle, where super quick third CC held off a four gate.


Hellion expand isn't a kill-move though?! And what TvP build lets you push off 2 base while taking an early third with the potential to kill the protoss? I would love to see that build.

The concepts are completely different. The terran build in TvZ is a pressure build, not a kill-move and I really don't know what the mysterious TvP build is you are talking about.


The mysterious TvP build where you make a quick third command center? Thought that was fairly obvious. Then make many barracks behind it and attack with them (ForGG v MC). You don't get instant reinforcements but you get the fact that marine/marauder slaughters unupgraded gateway units. Jjaki invested a huge amount into teching to medivacs, ended up getting a whole ONE, and into double engi bay and +1 attack which didn't finish. That's a bit more of an investment than a nexus.

Hellion expand can kill a zerg even with a quick third, happens time to time. How about the period of time where terrans didn't go the fast third CC, massed hellions, and just threw them at zerg and slaughtered everything? And in the first game Parting didn't pull a kill move off and in fact came very close to losing to a two base timing push from Jjaki who probably hasn't even experimented heavily with the best timing to hit Parting.


Ok, for starters. This TvP build only works if the protoss doesn't tech to collossi or archons, has no forcefields etc (theres about a million ways to defend this)... without medivacs it's almost suicide to leave your own base vs. Protoss. This worked once for ForGG, he had the element of surprise I'd say, but that's about it.

And hellion expand kills Zergs? yeah sure if they are awful and still don't know how to defend vs. 6 hellion opening. Is it the same concept though? Hell no. And next thing I read -> Straw man. Who cares about 2 base hellion all-ins? That's a completely different concept because it's not even a three base build... what are you trying to say?


Against zerg the terran can have 3 cc and still have complete map control with hellions untill mutas are out or some all inish roach build. As zerg its hard enough to keep up on equal bases, but 3 cc? Yeah thats terrans game to lose. Only good thing about it is that it requires alot of apm to macro and keep up with infrastructure with all those mules so it cant be to much abused in lower leagues.


I know man. But that is just a completely different concept. 3cc is an economical build you are right, but that's not the point morrow was trying to make. It's perfectly fine when a race can do economical builds while maintaining map control, is it good for terran? Yes, can it be countered? yes. The point morrow was trying to make is that economical build + kill move seems imbalanced. I agree with his opinion. But it is what it is, an opinion, obviously nobody can prove it is imba or not, we will see how that will turn out in the future. But I understand what Morrow was getting at, is what I'm trying to say.
andaylin
Profile Joined August 2010
United States10830 Posts
February 08 2012 11:52 GMT
#2210
YEAHHHH JJAKJI. ONE MORE, DO ITTTTTTTT
"Hard work beats talent when talent fails to work hard." - Kevin Durant
Drazerk
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom31255 Posts
February 08 2012 11:53 GMT
#2211
On February 08 2012 20:45 Drazerk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 08 2012 20:42 Drazerk wrote:
Game One on Cloud Kingdom

In the bottom left is Parting

In the top right is JJakji

6:30


Robo from Parting

Stim and engineering bay from JJakji

Small engagements in the middle between a marine and a stalker

7:30

Forge on the way for Parting along with an observer first

Factory and reactor for JJakji along with bio +1

10:30


Armour +1 for parting finishes while getting archons and more gateways but he forgot charge

2/1 on the way for JJakji along with more barracks

13:00


Armour +2 for Parting now while starting his third along with JJakji who is getting ghosts and medivacs


14:30

JJakji emps the sentries forcing a cancel on the third of parting

The third of JJakji is now up

Parting going for a big attack now in response


17:30

Robo bay and melee +3 for Parting

armies engage with good EMPs

Stroms finally go off but a stim forward kills most of partings army but an over extension kills the medivacs
andaylin
Profile Joined August 2010
United States10830 Posts
February 08 2012 11:53 GMT
#2212
On February 08 2012 20:52 NHY wrote:
Oh look, pressure while taking 3rd.

Clearly T imba

what? that third was at a normal timing, not 6 minutes, LOL
"Hard work beats talent when talent fails to work hard." - Kevin Durant
Fragile51
Profile Joined October 2011
Netherlands15767 Posts
February 08 2012 11:53 GMT
#2213
Come on Parting, hold on till colo comes out..
Logros
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands9913 Posts
February 08 2012 11:53 GMT
#2214
Colossus switch now is gonna hurt.
Cereb
Profile Joined November 2011
Denmark3388 Posts
February 08 2012 11:53 GMT
#2215
Jjakji: Microing is overrated
"Until the very very top in almost anything, all that matters is how much work you put in. The only problem is most people can't work hard even at things they do enjoy, much less things they don't have a real passion for. -Greg "IdrA" Fields
NuclearJudas
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
6546 Posts
February 08 2012 11:53 GMT
#2216
Come on Jjakji. Kill him. :D:D:D:D:D:
Life is like Tetris. Your errors pile up but your accomplishments disappear. - Robert Ohlén | http://railroaddiary.wordpress.com/ - My words about stuff.
MVTaylor
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United Kingdom2893 Posts
February 08 2012 11:53 GMT
#2217
Completely over microing there by Jjakji. If you haven't got the medivacs on another hotkey you'll always lose them. With that few zealots just stand there and take some hits, he'd like over half killed many of those archons and now they all get away to regen.
@followMVT
Drazerk
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom31255 Posts
February 08 2012 11:53 GMT
#2218
On February 08 2012 20:52 zhurai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 08 2012 20:52 Seeker wrote:
On February 08 2012 20:50 keioh wrote:
On February 08 2012 20:48 Seeker wrote:
On February 08 2012 20:47 Cereb wrote:
On February 08 2012 20:46 pPingu wrote:
On February 08 2012 20:43 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:
Mc will take this title! For the Sad Zealot!!


I want a happy zealot if MC wins



The zealot is apparantly always sad on TL... even when they perform better than Zerg.

The Happy Marine
The Sad Zealot

........


The Neutral Zergling?


No, the suicidal baneling. Yeah,it was given with the game.

Creepy Zergling is better imo

I guess I'm Confused Semi Random

..........

.___.


Wouldn't it be laughing random as they clearly win?
Fragile51
Profile Joined October 2011
Netherlands15767 Posts
February 08 2012 11:54 GMT
#2219
Lol, that high templar was...a dark templar
roymarthyup
Profile Joined April 2010
1442 Posts
February 08 2012 11:54 GMT
#2220
No matter how many times terran wants to complain about partings 3base push, here are the facts

ive seen several interviews with dustin browder where he talks about how all the units like the carrier or marine have been tested and fine tuned in numbers by a testing group they have that uses balance testing machines and calculations to determine proper strength for cost of units and he said marines are balanced in terms of combat ability and the balance tester shows if any changes are made to the marine such as stim taking more health it would imbalance the game too much and he said the balance testing machine shows that stim isnt even actually that powerful in terms of combat effectiveness between units and people are overreacting

i gotta look for that interview again i think it was at blizzcon but browder pretty much said "oh yeah the stats are like that for the stalker and marauder because thats what are tester gave it. we cant change it without making things imbalanced"

and for the most part im pretty sure they use that to get the final tuning on balance numbers. For the most part, money for money, gateways and barracks both produce the same amount of units/cost per minute, and those units are equal in power to eachother. and if you look further most units seem to be balanced per cost, a stalker is barely equal to a hydra but loses to a marauder who is equal cost, but stalkers can shoot air and marauders cant so thats why the marauder is stronger.

and then theres counter units like banelings to counter marines which probably have their own formula but general combat units seem to be pretty balanced alongside eachother

3rax (2reactor/1techlab) costs 600/125 and consumes 450 minerals a minute on marines and 200/50 a minute on marauders 9 marines and 2 marauders a minute.
13food a minute. total cost 650/50
add on 150/150 for combat shields and conc shells eventually

4gate costs 600 and consumes 200/0 a min on zealots, 100/200 a min on sentries, 250/100 a min on stalkers
12food a minute, total cost 550/300
add on 200/50 for warpgate upgrade + cybercore


roughly equal in cost, raxes and gateways provide roughly equal production/minute and strength/minute of produced units.

there is racial difference in that terran spends much less gas than the protoss on his units. is this an advantage or disadvantage, who really knows. terran as a race has mules for more mineral income at full saturation... and thus must plan his strategies accordingly different from the toss because gas isnt as important for him in the early game but regardless, my point is roughly they are equal in strength in terms of cost/production

when massed up the gateway units start to overpower the rax units with forcefields.

hopefully the terran can get 1-2 thors or tanks or medivacs to counter critical mass forcefields before its too late. problem is getting medivacs means you skipped a production facility (factory) and are basically making yourself 2 production facilities short just to get some medivacs trying to counter the forcefield mass

simply put, parting spent all his money on tier1 production with zero tech and attacked the terran who spent all his money on tech

so you cannot expect parting who does a 8gate attack with zero tech and an extra 400 mineral nexus to not completely destroy a terran who only gets like 3raxes while getting double ebays for upgrades, and factory for tech reasons only (making no tanks or combat units from the factory along the way) so by the time partings push hits the terran has one medivac to show from his factory+starport

what do terrans want? forcefield to be nerfed? really think about what your saying and look at the numbers. gateways and raxes and gateway units and rax units are pretty balanced towards eachother. i doubt anything is going to change and i doubt any real imbalance exists, parting just spent his money more wisely.

rax units are stronger in the first two waves (23food vs 23food) but then after that the gateway units are stronger with forcefield spamming. so terran is stronger early, toss stronger late.

Ideally, if the game was really balanced, the proper counter to the 8gate of parting with zero tech would be a 5rax+factory with zero tech or 4rax+factory+starport with zero tech ASSUMING the forcefield counter came from the factory (also remember a armory for thors counts as production and it is not "wasted tech" because you produce 6food a minute from a factory with that armory, while a gateway only produces roughly 3 food a minute so costwise your getting production for your money).

Getting medivacs while skipping the factory for production is cost-for-cost a balance flaw if thats the only way to beat it, because blizzards basically saying terran has to throw away money for nothing and sacrifice production to beat production? it makes no sense. if the starport is used for medivacs AND the factory is used, then that makes sense, and maybe thats the answer.

but only getting medivacs and skipping the factory if thats the only answer is a design flaw in the game i will concede that is strange if thats the case

so theres one argument where terrans might have a point, and thats in the fact that by the third wave protoss gateway units is too strong over rax units, and if no viable forcefield counter can be gotten by the terran in time to battle against a 8gate vs 5rax+factory or 4rax+factory+starport scenario then theres a problem. Blizzard seems to think thors or siegetanks are the temporary counter to help defend against these pushes, since thats the only viable tech path available to terran, if it truly does not serve as an answer to forcefields then that would actually be a legit balance concern.

Honestly as protoss i would be fine if bunkers had a on-use ability that instantly shot out a pulse that crushed all forcefields in a 600aoe around it but it had a 120 second cooldown. The only legitimate balance concern i can see really is in forcefields, and in whether or not terran truly has a viable counter to forcefields in these 2base/3base 8gate+zero tech scenarios

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