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On January 19 2012 21:58 HeroUlyssess wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 21:56 SeaSwift wrote:On January 19 2012 21:52 R!! wrote:On January 19 2012 21:46 HolyArrow wrote:On January 19 2012 21:42 HeroUlyssess wrote:On January 19 2012 21:41 xinxy wrote:On January 19 2012 21:40 avilo wrote:On January 19 2012 21:39 double620 wrote:
8 terrans in the ro16, but all the terrans are crying that they are too weak.
There were more Terrans than the other races at the start of the format to begin with...you realize that right? Which reinforces the point that Terran are still too strong? I mean if the tournament had nothing but T some of them would still be eliminated, you realize that right? More like the old Code S format made it very hard to drop out and hard to get into, and it just as easily could have been 15 Zergs in Code S or 15 protosses We can spend all day talking about hypotheticals but the fact is that overall, Terran statistically has had an edge in Korea for a significant portion of last year, and it shows in the racial distribution of Code S towards the end of last year. Also, even if you want to make the argument that it's very hard to drop out and very hard to get into, then you also have to acknowledge the fact that despite how hard you say it was to get into Code S with the old format, a disproportionate of Terrans managed to do so to make it so that there were roughly 20 Terrans for a couple seasons. They managed to do that ages ago, and stayed there because the format made it so, which created a false sense of terran dominance. The old "format" argument doesn't make any sense. It implies that the game was balanced, so the winrates were about 50/50, but poor Terrans managed to stay in because of the format. It's utter bollocks because if you look at the winrates, they were NOT 50/50. Terran still won most of their matches against Protoss in Code S for a long time. That has nothing to do with the format which retained players. Back when some of those terrans got into Code S, say back in march 2011, the game wasn't balanced. but Star2 has become far more balanced since then. but due to terrans getting in due to imbalance, a racial disparity was created that lasted for an extended period of time due to the Code S format of old. there, explained.
The number of Terrans getting in from May to October only increased, as I specified in my previous post. That's plenty of time past March, so unless you also want to admit that the game was imbalanced going all the way to October (soon after there was finally patch 1.4.2 which really changed things up), I suggest you think of a better explanation.
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On January 19 2012 21:55 Ysellian wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 21:53 forsooth wrote:On January 19 2012 21:50 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:On January 19 2012 21:49 forsooth wrote:On January 19 2012 21:44 Corrosive wrote:
How to subtly balance whine without getting in trouble:
Say watching protoss is boring because of how the race is designed!
If a protoss does anything besides long 40 minute games it's an "all in" or its "cheese"
T-T The only thing worse than watching Protoss do a 7 gate is watching Protoss play a 40 minute game. Protoss is boring, badly designed, and never fun to watch. Balance is a different concern. Translation: I play T, P smash! rarrrrr  Except I thoroughly enjoy watching Zerg play as well, and even ZvZ. And I used to play Protoss in BW. Still do sometimes. This isn't some expression of rage about losing TvP on ladder too much. I actually do fine vs Protoss. That doesn't make Protoss well designed or interesting to play or watch, however. Protoss in brood war was the most entertaining race to watch IMHO and this coming from a BW Terran like myself.
Reavers and Arbiters were always my two favorite units, especially Arbiters.
Terran is always fun for me to watch though, especially players like Fantasy. I was always godawful at TvP and TvT in BW though, which is why I never mained Terran for any decent stretch of time (my vulture control is so shitty it's embarrassing). I've been giving it another go lately, but the community is pretty dead now so there's not as much excitement to it.
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France13022 Posts
Wow, top 38 on code S liquibet and I voted for Parting and Puzzle (but I had wrong for the head-to-head predictions T;T thought KeeN would have won against NaDa), I wonder how I got those predictions right without watching the GSL except for these last two days
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On January 19 2012 22:03 blacklist_member wrote:
Any ides when the group nominations are?
Or are they not broadcasted?
It is tomorrow same time. Check out the gom web bro.
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On January 19 2012 21:59 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 21:42 Ricemagical wrote:On January 19 2012 21:34 Tsubbi wrote:On January 19 2012 21:30 Fionn wrote:
This could be the first time ever where Protoss isn't last in racial distribution in the Ro16 in GSL history. last season had 5p 3z in ro16 also august had 4 p 3z july 5p 4z may 5p 4z march 5p 4z january 4p 3z lol im frustrated now, in essence zerg sucks You're getting 16 and 32 confused bro. No, you are. His numbers are correct, check liquipedia.
Always nice to see people put straight by cold facts.
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On January 19 2012 21:58 HeroUlyssess wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 21:56 SeaSwift wrote:On January 19 2012 21:52 R!! wrote:On January 19 2012 21:46 HolyArrow wrote:On January 19 2012 21:42 HeroUlyssess wrote:On January 19 2012 21:41 xinxy wrote:On January 19 2012 21:40 avilo wrote:On January 19 2012 21:39 double620 wrote:
8 terrans in the ro16, but all the terrans are crying that they are too weak.
There were more Terrans than the other races at the start of the format to begin with...you realize that right? Which reinforces the point that Terran are still too strong? I mean if the tournament had nothing but T some of them would still be eliminated, you realize that right? More like the old Code S format made it very hard to drop out and hard to get into, and it just as easily could have been 15 Zergs in Code S or 15 protosses We can spend all day talking about hypotheticals but the fact is that overall, Terran statistically has had an edge in Korea for a significant portion of last year, and it shows in the racial distribution of Code S towards the end of last year. Also, even if you want to make the argument that it's very hard to drop out and very hard to get into, then you also have to acknowledge the fact that despite how hard you say it was to get into Code S with the old format, a disproportionate of Terrans managed to do so to make it so that there were roughly 20 Terrans for a couple seasons. They managed to do that ages ago, and stayed there because the format made it so, which created a false sense of terran dominance. The old "format" argument doesn't make any sense. It implies that the game was balanced, so the winrates were about 50/50, but poor Terrans managed to stay in because of the format. It's utter bollocks because if you look at the winrates, they were NOT 50/50. Terran still won most of their matches against Protoss in Code S for a long time. That has nothing to do with the format which retained players. Back when some of those terrans got into Code S, say back in march 2011, the game wasn't balanced. but Star2 has become far more balanced since then. but due to terrans getting in due to imbalance, a racial disparity was created that lasted for an extended period of time due to the Code S format of old. there, explained.
Sorry, when you quote my post I expect you to read it first.
This hypothesis that Terrans got in because of racial disparity and then despite the re-balancing managed to stay in Code S does not make sense because then the WINRATE in GSL would be equal, because the game was balanced, or even unequal because the bad Terrans would be playing on even grounds with better Protoss.
But the winrate was not equal. Go to Liquipedia. Look at Terran vs Protoss winrates in Code S for last year. Apart from November, the PvT winrate was for every single month sub-50%. If you don't believe me, see here. Or here. Go through and check those winrates.
Up until November, Protoss vs Terran was massively in favour of Terran in the GSL. Even in Code A, PvT was frequently sub-45%. This notion that the format alone kept Terrans who were worse than Protoss in Code S or Code A despite the game being balanced is a complete illusion.
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On January 19 2012 22:05 R!! wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 21:50 HolyArrow wrote:On January 19 2012 21:47 R!! wrote:On January 19 2012 21:39 xinxy wrote:
The Terran tears in this thread are pretty delicious I gotta say. I mean there's as many T left in r16 as P and Z combined but that won't stop cries of imbalance apparently. It must be absolute Terran majority for the game to be "balanced". Except the percentage of protoss players going through is bigger whilst their skill definetely isn't ( 7gate 7gate vray allin, macro game = 20 min without starting +1 armor). Yeah, go ahead and stick to talking about unquantifiable things like skill while we talk pure, objective numbers. Your statement about lacking +1 armor by 20 minutes in is also kind of funny. You must really be reaching if you had to use that as one of your criticisms. Percentages seem to be a pretty quantifiable thing to me, and fighting with 1/0 against 2/2 , max vs max ,should be close to an auto loss to me, apparently it isn't.
Wait... Puzzle was maxed with 1/0 and attacked vs a maxed Keen with 2/2?
I can't remember that fight taking place :/
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On January 19 2012 21:54 MegaFonzie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 21:49 HeroUlyssess wrote:On January 19 2012 21:47 MegaFonzie wrote:
Puzzle's play wasn't inspired sure, but it was solid. He played to win games, that's just how it is. I've seen enough of him in the past to know he isn't all about all in's and can play some pretty sweet protoss. He's one of the most dangerous player molds out there - he's capable and willing to hit you with cheese, but equally prepared to play a longer game. People will be worried about matching up against puzzle later in the tournament. That's exactly how every progamer should want it Puzzle's play was far from 'solid' going 7 gate twice and void ray rushing are hardly consistent builds. Puzzle player riskily and got lucky... I'll accept there were some risks involved, that's generally the way with all ins. His 7gate worked in two vastly different circumstances and the void ray build is a super smart choice for a map like Dual Sight. His builds were practiced, refined, a bit risky, but overall, intelligent.
Must be pretty smart, especially when your opponents even know what you are gonna do, then again, just putting the 7 gates down must create some synapses.
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Colossus are even more of a joke in the lower leagues. I actually think its bad for protoss players because they can rely so much on colossus because they are so easy to use and requires alot from the opponent to work around.
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On January 19 2012 22:07 R!! wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 21:54 MegaFonzie wrote:On January 19 2012 21:49 HeroUlyssess wrote:On January 19 2012 21:47 MegaFonzie wrote:
Puzzle's play wasn't inspired sure, but it was solid. He played to win games, that's just how it is. I've seen enough of him in the past to know he isn't all about all in's and can play some pretty sweet protoss. He's one of the most dangerous player molds out there - he's capable and willing to hit you with cheese, but equally prepared to play a longer game. People will be worried about matching up against puzzle later in the tournament. That's exactly how every progamer should want it Puzzle's play was far from 'solid' going 7 gate twice and void ray rushing are hardly consistent builds. Puzzle player riskily and got lucky... I'll accept there were some risks involved, that's generally the way with all ins. His 7gate worked in two vastly different circumstances and the void ray build is a super smart choice for a map like Dual Sight. His builds were practiced, refined, a bit risky, but overall, intelligent. Must be pretty smart, especially when your opponents even know what you are gonna do, then again, just putting the 7 gates down must create some synapses.
There is a designated balance thread somewhere on these forums, you should post there probably. I don't really want to argue with someone who is on a QQ binge in the LR threads
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On January 19 2012 22:07 MegaFonzie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 22:05 R!! wrote:On January 19 2012 21:50 HolyArrow wrote:On January 19 2012 21:47 R!! wrote:On January 19 2012 21:39 xinxy wrote:
The Terran tears in this thread are pretty delicious I gotta say. I mean there's as many T left in r16 as P and Z combined but that won't stop cries of imbalance apparently. It must be absolute Terran majority for the game to be "balanced". Except the percentage of protoss players going through is bigger whilst their skill definetely isn't ( 7gate 7gate vray allin, macro game = 20 min without starting +1 armor). Yeah, go ahead and stick to talking about unquantifiable things like skill while we talk pure, objective numbers. Your statement about lacking +1 armor by 20 minutes in is also kind of funny. You must really be reaching if you had to use that as one of your criticisms. Percentages seem to be a pretty quantifiable thing to me, and fighting with 1/0 against 2/2 , max vs max ,should be close to an auto loss to me, apparently it isn't. Wait... Puzzle was maxed with 1/0 and attacked vs a maxed Keen with 2/2? I can't remember that fight taking place :/
He did lose a lot of units there. But he was ahead too much and he was able to rebuild his army quickly enough. It was puzzle's mistake for not getting his upgrades quickly. But overall, he outplayed Keen in a marco game.
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On January 19 2012 22:06 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 21:58 HeroUlyssess wrote:On January 19 2012 21:56 SeaSwift wrote:On January 19 2012 21:52 R!! wrote:On January 19 2012 21:46 HolyArrow wrote:On January 19 2012 21:42 HeroUlyssess wrote:On January 19 2012 21:41 xinxy wrote:On January 19 2012 21:40 avilo wrote:On January 19 2012 21:39 double620 wrote:
8 terrans in the ro16, but all the terrans are crying that they are too weak.
There were more Terrans than the other races at the start of the format to begin with...you realize that right? Which reinforces the point that Terran are still too strong? I mean if the tournament had nothing but T some of them would still be eliminated, you realize that right? More like the old Code S format made it very hard to drop out and hard to get into, and it just as easily could have been 15 Zergs in Code S or 15 protosses We can spend all day talking about hypotheticals but the fact is that overall, Terran statistically has had an edge in Korea for a significant portion of last year, and it shows in the racial distribution of Code S towards the end of last year. Also, even if you want to make the argument that it's very hard to drop out and very hard to get into, then you also have to acknowledge the fact that despite how hard you say it was to get into Code S with the old format, a disproportionate of Terrans managed to do so to make it so that there were roughly 20 Terrans for a couple seasons. They managed to do that ages ago, and stayed there because the format made it so, which created a false sense of terran dominance. The old "format" argument doesn't make any sense. It implies that the game was balanced, so the winrates were about 50/50, but poor Terrans managed to stay in because of the format. It's utter bollocks because if you look at the winrates, they were NOT 50/50. Terran still won most of their matches against Protoss in Code S for a long time. That has nothing to do with the format which retained players. Back when some of those terrans got into Code S, say back in march 2011, the game wasn't balanced. but Star2 has become far more balanced since then. but due to terrans getting in due to imbalance, a racial disparity was created that lasted for an extended period of time due to the Code S format of old. there, explained. Sorry, when you quote my post I expect you to read it first. This hypothesis that Terrans got in because of racial disparity and then despite the re-balancing managed to stay in Code S does not make sense because then the WINRATE in GSL would be equal, because the game was balanced, or even unequal because the bad Terrans would be playing on even grounds with better Protoss. But the winrate was not equal. Go to Liquipedia. Look at Terran vs Protoss winrates in Code S for last year. Apart from November, the PvT winrate was for every single month sub-50%. If you don't believe me, see here. Or here. Go through and check those winrates. Up until November, Protoss vs Terran was massively in favour of Terran in the GSL. Even in Code A, PvT was frequently sub-45%. This notion that the format alone kept Terrans who were worse than Protoss in Code S or Code A despite the game being balanced is a complete illusion.
I never said that the format was the sole reason for this racial disparity. Rather, what i am trying to say is that it is a significant contributing factor to the amount of terrans in Code S. if we take the terran numbers from may (14) we can see that this is likely due to balance, and in my opinion (as a masters terran player, if that even means anything for the arguement) Terran WAS imbalanced in May. Then the following number to october (20) can be explained by the game becoming more and more balanced as time went on. However, due to terran being imbalanced in the first place, the major patches from may to october would have caused terran winrates, for the sake of arguement, to go from 65% to 60% to 55% and so an so forth. As you can see this means that as the months wore on more terrans would still (presumably) be gaining entry into Code S thanks to (possible) racial imbalances in TvP.
I hope you can get my point, its 2am here now and i am not really in the mood for a proper arguement, and I am not a factual encyclopedia relating to GSL.
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On January 19 2012 22:05 HeroUlyssess wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 22:02 HolyArrow wrote:On January 19 2012 21:52 R!! wrote:On January 19 2012 21:46 HolyArrow wrote:On January 19 2012 21:42 HeroUlyssess wrote:On January 19 2012 21:41 xinxy wrote:On January 19 2012 21:40 avilo wrote:On January 19 2012 21:39 double620 wrote:
8 terrans in the ro16, but all the terrans are crying that they are too weak.
There were more Terrans than the other races at the start of the format to begin with...you realize that right? Which reinforces the point that Terran are still too strong? I mean if the tournament had nothing but T some of them would still be eliminated, you realize that right? More like the old Code S format made it very hard to drop out and hard to get into, and it just as easily could have been 15 Zergs in Code S or 15 protosses We can spend all day talking about hypotheticals but the fact is that overall, Terran statistically has had an edge in Korea for a significant portion of last year, and it shows in the racial distribution of Code S towards the end of last year. Also, even if you want to make the argument that it's very hard to drop out and very hard to get into, then you also have to acknowledge the fact that despite how hard you say it was to get into Code S with the old format, a disproportionate of Terrans managed to do so to make it so that there were roughly 20 Terrans for a couple seasons. They managed to do that ages ago, and stayed there because the format made it so, which created a false sense of terran dominance. Tell me what month the format changed to the format then you speak of, then. Specify the month. Because I'm seeing Terran numbers go from 14 to 15 to 17 to 20 from May to October. That's an awful lot of growth for Code S being hard to get in to as you claim. Don't forget that Terran numbers increasing also implies P/Z numbers decreasing from Code S, so you say it's very hard to drop out, but it seems that it was pretty easy for all those P/Z players to drop out from May to October while Ts managed to make it into Code S consistently in that time period despite how you say that the format made it very hard to get into. you forget how that number has dropped from 20 in October to 15 this month, that is a small indicator that the problem with the racial disparity in code S was due to the old format. If anything, what you said helps my argument and damages yours.
... You keep citing the old format, but don't forget that in the old format, the Terran numbers kept on steadily increasing. Finally, we had patch 1.4.2, which was huge, along with a far different map pool, both of which massively contributed to balance. You claim that my post helps your argument and damages mine, but all my argument is strictly that R!!'s theory is incorrect.
Let me be as clear as possible.
If I'm understanding R!!'s theory correctly, he's saying that tons of Terrans got into Code S, then the format changed that made it very hard to get in or out of Code S, thus the high amount of Terrans were retained.
This theory is flawed because the high amount of Terrans were not only retained - they GREW. Thus, it is silly to claim that the format making it really hard to get into or drop out of Code S was somehow a valid explanation for the ridiculous amount of Terrans that ended up there, especially in light of the fact that the number of Terrans steadily grew even in the old format while the number of Z and P players shrank.
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On January 19 2012 22:13 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 22:05 HeroUlyssess wrote:On January 19 2012 22:02 HolyArrow wrote:On January 19 2012 21:52 R!! wrote:On January 19 2012 21:46 HolyArrow wrote:On January 19 2012 21:42 HeroUlyssess wrote:On January 19 2012 21:41 xinxy wrote:On January 19 2012 21:40 avilo wrote:On January 19 2012 21:39 double620 wrote:
8 terrans in the ro16, but all the terrans are crying that they are too weak.
There were more Terrans than the other races at the start of the format to begin with...you realize that right? Which reinforces the point that Terran are still too strong? I mean if the tournament had nothing but T some of them would still be eliminated, you realize that right? More like the old Code S format made it very hard to drop out and hard to get into, and it just as easily could have been 15 Zergs in Code S or 15 protosses We can spend all day talking about hypotheticals but the fact is that overall, Terran statistically has had an edge in Korea for a significant portion of last year, and it shows in the racial distribution of Code S towards the end of last year. Also, even if you want to make the argument that it's very hard to drop out and very hard to get into, then you also have to acknowledge the fact that despite how hard you say it was to get into Code S with the old format, a disproportionate of Terrans managed to do so to make it so that there were roughly 20 Terrans for a couple seasons. They managed to do that ages ago, and stayed there because the format made it so, which created a false sense of terran dominance. Tell me what month the format changed to the format then you speak of, then. Specify the month. Because I'm seeing Terran numbers go from 14 to 15 to 17 to 20 from May to October. That's an awful lot of growth for Code S being hard to get in to as you claim. Don't forget that Terran numbers increasing also implies P/Z numbers decreasing from Code S, so you say it's very hard to drop out, but it seems that it was pretty easy for all those P/Z players to drop out from May to October while Ts managed to make it into Code S consistently in that time period despite how you say that the format made it very hard to get into. you forget how that number has dropped from 20 in October to 15 this month, that is a small indicator that the problem with the racial disparity in code S was due to the old format. If anything, what you said helps my argument and damages yours. ... You keep citing the old format, but don't forget that in the old format, the Terran numbers kept on steadily increasing. Finally, we had patch 1.4.2, which was huge, along with a far different map pool, both of which massively contributed to balance. You claim that my post helps your argument and damages mine, but all my argument is strictly that R!!'s theory is incorrect. Let me be as clear as possible. If I'm understanding R!!'s theory correctly, he's saying that tons of Terrans got into Code S, then the format changed that made it very hard to get in or out of Code S, thus the high amount of Terrans were retained. This theory is flawed because the high amount of Terrans were not only retained - they GREW. Thus, it is silly to claim that the format making it really hard to get into or drop out of Code S was somehow a valid explanation for the ridiculous amount of Terrans that ended up there, especially in light of the fact that the number of Terrans steadily grew even in the old format while the number of Z and P players shrank.
i kinda answered this in the post above yours.
It is a bit of a ramble, but it is the best i can do fatigued as i am.
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On January 19 2012 22:09 MegaFonzie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 22:07 R!! wrote:On January 19 2012 21:54 MegaFonzie wrote:On January 19 2012 21:49 HeroUlyssess wrote:On January 19 2012 21:47 MegaFonzie wrote:
Puzzle's play wasn't inspired sure, but it was solid. He played to win games, that's just how it is. I've seen enough of him in the past to know he isn't all about all in's and can play some pretty sweet protoss. He's one of the most dangerous player molds out there - he's capable and willing to hit you with cheese, but equally prepared to play a longer game. People will be worried about matching up against puzzle later in the tournament. That's exactly how every progamer should want it Puzzle's play was far from 'solid' going 7 gate twice and void ray rushing are hardly consistent builds. Puzzle player riskily and got lucky... I'll accept there were some risks involved, that's generally the way with all ins. His 7gate worked in two vastly different circumstances and the void ray build is a super smart choice for a map like Dual Sight. His builds were practiced, refined, a bit risky, but overall, intelligent. Must be pretty smart, especially when your opponents even know what you are gonna do, then again, just putting the 7 gates down must create some synapses. There is a designated balance thread somewhere on these forums, you should post there probably. I don't really want to argue with someone who is on a QQ binge in the LR threads
What?Keen scanned the 7 gate and still got demolished, and then I called the second 7 gate because that's what Puzzle does, ain't a far stretch to think that NaDa knew it was gonna happen too.
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On January 19 2012 22:13 HeroUlyssess wrote:
I hope you can get my point.
Sorry, I don't. Maybe explain it tomorrow when you're less tired?
Edit: this thread isn't really the place for it, especially after the event it is concerned with is over. I'd just use PMs.
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On January 19 2012 22:13 HeroUlyssess wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 22:06 SeaSwift wrote:On January 19 2012 21:58 HeroUlyssess wrote:On January 19 2012 21:56 SeaSwift wrote:On January 19 2012 21:52 R!! wrote:On January 19 2012 21:46 HolyArrow wrote:On January 19 2012 21:42 HeroUlyssess wrote:On January 19 2012 21:41 xinxy wrote:On January 19 2012 21:40 avilo wrote:On January 19 2012 21:39 double620 wrote:
8 terrans in the ro16, but all the terrans are crying that they are too weak.
There were more Terrans than the other races at the start of the format to begin with...you realize that right? Which reinforces the point that Terran are still too strong? I mean if the tournament had nothing but T some of them would still be eliminated, you realize that right? More like the old Code S format made it very hard to drop out and hard to get into, and it just as easily could have been 15 Zergs in Code S or 15 protosses We can spend all day talking about hypotheticals but the fact is that overall, Terran statistically has had an edge in Korea for a significant portion of last year, and it shows in the racial distribution of Code S towards the end of last year. Also, even if you want to make the argument that it's very hard to drop out and very hard to get into, then you also have to acknowledge the fact that despite how hard you say it was to get into Code S with the old format, a disproportionate of Terrans managed to do so to make it so that there were roughly 20 Terrans for a couple seasons. They managed to do that ages ago, and stayed there because the format made it so, which created a false sense of terran dominance. The old "format" argument doesn't make any sense. It implies that the game was balanced, so the winrates were about 50/50, but poor Terrans managed to stay in because of the format. It's utter bollocks because if you look at the winrates, they were NOT 50/50. Terran still won most of their matches against Protoss in Code S for a long time. That has nothing to do with the format which retained players. Back when some of those terrans got into Code S, say back in march 2011, the game wasn't balanced. but Star2 has become far more balanced since then. but due to terrans getting in due to imbalance, a racial disparity was created that lasted for an extended period of time due to the Code S format of old. there, explained. Sorry, when you quote my post I expect you to read it first. This hypothesis that Terrans got in because of racial disparity and then despite the re-balancing managed to stay in Code S does not make sense because then the WINRATE in GSL would be equal, because the game was balanced, or even unequal because the bad Terrans would be playing on even grounds with better Protoss. But the winrate was not equal. Go to Liquipedia. Look at Terran vs Protoss winrates in Code S for last year. Apart from November, the PvT winrate was for every single month sub-50%. If you don't believe me, see here. Or here. Go through and check those winrates. Up until November, Protoss vs Terran was massively in favour of Terran in the GSL. Even in Code A, PvT was frequently sub-45%. This notion that the format alone kept Terrans who were worse than Protoss in Code S or Code A despite the game being balanced is a complete illusion. I never said that the format was the sole reason for this racial disparity. Rather, what i am trying to say is that it is a significant contributing factor to the amount of terrans in Code S. if we take the terran numbers from may (14) we can see that this is likely due to balance, and in my opinion (as a masters terran player, if that even means anything for the arguement) Terran WAS imbalanced in May. Then the following number to october (20) can be explained by the game becoming more and more balanced as time went on. However, due to terran being imbalanced in the first place, the major patches from may to october would have caused terran winrates, for the sake of arguement, to go from 65% to 60% to 55% and so an so forth. As you can see this means that as the months wore on more terrans would still (presumably) be gaining entry into Code S thanks to (possible) racial imbalances in TvP. I hope you can get my point, its 2am here now and i am not really in the mood for a proper arguement, and I am not a factual encyclopedia relating to GSL.
Except you're pulling those percentages out of nowhere, and, actually, Terran had a better winrate vP in October than August (according to those links that SeaSwift posted, not sure about the overall winrate in Korea), so your "for the sake of argument" percentages are completely meaningless because they have zero statistical basis. You don't have to be a factual encyclopedia regarding the GSL but the least you could do is actually do research instead of pulling theories out of nowhere that just help conform to your biases.
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On January 19 2012 22:19 SeaSwift wrote:Sorry, I don't. Maybe explain it tomorrow when you're less tired?
I was thinking of doing that, my point is a lot more thought out in my head than i can properly articulate at this time.
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On January 19 2012 21:47 R!! wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 21:39 xinxy wrote:
The Terran tears in this thread are pretty delicious I gotta say. I mean there's as many T left in r16 as P and Z combined but that won't stop cries of imbalance apparently. It must be absolute Terran majority for the game to be "balanced". Except the percentage of protoss players going through is bigger whilst their skill definetely isn't ( 7gate 7gate vray allin, macro game = 20 min without starting +1 armor).
Your words are very rhetorical in nature. You tell one part of the story without telling the whole story. It indicates armchair QB'ing while being a very mediocre skill level. Perhaps you should consider your lack of understanding of even the very fundamentals of gameplay let alone the subtleties before you bash players far better than you.
For example, your "macro gam = 20 min without starting +1 armor) was probably the one where Puzzle cut gas to perform a timing which he recognized would fail. With very limited gas supply he realized that having FF, forcing ghosts and vikings with HT and colossi would be much better use for gas than getting 1/1. So he planned far ahead, going-> HT (unlocks +2 attack via Council to setup colossi later on when he'd have enough gas) while taking greedy expansions to metagame his opponent.
Why HT first? Setup colossi and metagame Keen who likes abusive drop styles. Colossi are not as good w/o feedback + cannons therefore he needs extra minerals and have enough HTs at the right places.
Some basic analysis like this would should be occurring as you watch the game would, you would think, prevent you from posting asinine comments like yours.
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On January 19 2012 22:20 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 22:13 HeroUlyssess wrote:On January 19 2012 22:06 SeaSwift wrote:On January 19 2012 21:58 HeroUlyssess wrote:On January 19 2012 21:56 SeaSwift wrote:On January 19 2012 21:52 R!! wrote:On January 19 2012 21:46 HolyArrow wrote:On January 19 2012 21:42 HeroUlyssess wrote:On January 19 2012 21:41 xinxy wrote:On January 19 2012 21:40 avilo wrote:
[quote]
There were more Terrans than the other races at the start of the format to begin with...you realize that right? Which reinforces the point that Terran are still too strong? I mean if the tournament had nothing but T some of them would still be eliminated, you realize that right? More like the old Code S format made it very hard to drop out and hard to get into, and it just as easily could have been 15 Zergs in Code S or 15 protosses We can spend all day talking about hypotheticals but the fact is that overall, Terran statistically has had an edge in Korea for a significant portion of last year, and it shows in the racial distribution of Code S towards the end of last year. Also, even if you want to make the argument that it's very hard to drop out and very hard to get into, then you also have to acknowledge the fact that despite how hard you say it was to get into Code S with the old format, a disproportionate of Terrans managed to do so to make it so that there were roughly 20 Terrans for a couple seasons. They managed to do that ages ago, and stayed there because the format made it so, which created a false sense of terran dominance. The old "format" argument doesn't make any sense. It implies that the game was balanced, so the winrates were about 50/50, but poor Terrans managed to stay in because of the format. It's utter bollocks because if you look at the winrates, they were NOT 50/50. Terran still won most of their matches against Protoss in Code S for a long time. That has nothing to do with the format which retained players. Back when some of those terrans got into Code S, say back in march 2011, the game wasn't balanced. but Star2 has become far more balanced since then. but due to terrans getting in due to imbalance, a racial disparity was created that lasted for an extended period of time due to the Code S format of old. there, explained. Sorry, when you quote my post I expect you to read it first. This hypothesis that Terrans got in because of racial disparity and then despite the re-balancing managed to stay in Code S does not make sense because then the WINRATE in GSL would be equal, because the game was balanced, or even unequal because the bad Terrans would be playing on even grounds with better Protoss. But the winrate was not equal. Go to Liquipedia. Look at Terran vs Protoss winrates in Code S for last year. Apart from November, the PvT winrate was for every single month sub-50%. If you don't believe me, see here. Or here. Go through and check those winrates. Up until November, Protoss vs Terran was massively in favour of Terran in the GSL. Even in Code A, PvT was frequently sub-45%. This notion that the format alone kept Terrans who were worse than Protoss in Code S or Code A despite the game being balanced is a complete illusion. I never said that the format was the sole reason for this racial disparity. Rather, what i am trying to say is that it is a significant contributing factor to the amount of terrans in Code S. if we take the terran numbers from may (14) we can see that this is likely due to balance, and in my opinion (as a masters terran player, if that even means anything for the arguement) Terran WAS imbalanced in May. Then the following number to october (20) can be explained by the game becoming more and more balanced as time went on. However, due to terran being imbalanced in the first place, the major patches from may to october would have caused terran winrates, for the sake of arguement, to go from 65% to 60% to 55% and so an so forth. As you can see this means that as the months wore on more terrans would still (presumably) be gaining entry into Code S thanks to (possible) racial imbalances in TvP. I hope you can get my point, its 2am here now and i am not really in the mood for a proper arguement, and I am not a factual encyclopedia relating to GSL. Except you're pulling those percentages out of nowhere, and, actually, Terran had a better winrate vP in October than August (according to those links that SeaSwift posted, not sure about the overall winrate in Korea), so your "for the sake of argument" percentages are completely meaningless because they have zero statistical basis. You don't have to be a factual encyclopedia regarding the GSL but the least you could do is actually do research instead of pulling theories out of nowhere that just help conform to your biases.
I don't have the graph on me, but i think you will find that the general trend for TvP balance is correlating (this is the wrong word i think :| I NEED SLEEP) in the negative direction for Terran, and the positive direction for protoss.
And i am certain that, if not overall, this was the case from may to October.
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EPT
