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On January 19 2012 21:53 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 21:50 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:On January 19 2012 21:49 forsooth wrote:On January 19 2012 21:44 Corrosive wrote:
How to subtly balance whine without getting in trouble:
Say watching protoss is boring because of how the race is designed!
If a protoss does anything besides long 40 minute games it's an "all in" or its "cheese"
T-T The only thing worse than watching Protoss do a 7 gate is watching Protoss play a 40 minute game. Protoss is boring, badly designed, and never fun to watch. Balance is a different concern. Translation: I play T, P smash! rarrrrr  Except I thoroughly enjoy watching Zerg play as well, and even ZvZ. And I used to play Protoss in BW. Still do sometimes. This isn't some expression of rage about losing TvP on ladder too much. I actually do fine vs Protoss. That doesn't make Protoss well designed or interesting to play or watch, however.
Protoss in brood war was the most entertaining race to watch IMHO and this coming from a BW Terran like myself.
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On January 19 2012 21:49 HeroUlyssess wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 21:47 MegaFonzie wrote:
Puzzle's play wasn't inspired sure, but it was solid. He played to win games, that's just how it is. I've seen enough of him in the past to know he isn't all about all in's and can play some pretty sweet protoss. He's one of the most dangerous player molds out there - he's capable and willing to hit you with cheese, but equally prepared to play a longer game. People will be worried about matching up against puzzle later in the tournament. That's exactly how every progamer should want it Puzzle's play was far from 'solid' going 7 gate twice and void ray rushing are hardly consistent builds. Puzzle player riskily and got lucky...
He did not get lucky. His opponents just played worse than him and he won because of that.
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On January 19 2012 21:54 MegaFonzie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 21:49 HeroUlyssess wrote:On January 19 2012 21:47 MegaFonzie wrote:
Puzzle's play wasn't inspired sure, but it was solid. He played to win games, that's just how it is. I've seen enough of him in the past to know he isn't all about all in's and can play some pretty sweet protoss. He's one of the most dangerous player molds out there - he's capable and willing to hit you with cheese, but equally prepared to play a longer game. People will be worried about matching up against puzzle later in the tournament. That's exactly how every progamer should want it Puzzle's play was far from 'solid' going 7 gate twice and void ray rushing are hardly consistent builds. Puzzle player riskily and got lucky... I'll accept there were some risks involved, that's generally the way with all ins. His 7gate worked in two vastly different circumstances and the void ray build is a super smart choice for a map like Dual Sight. His builds were practiced, refined, a bit risky, but overall, intelligent.
i didn't deny their intelligence, just that they weren't 'solid' builds in any way shape or form. Though i think his first 7 gate was quite a poor choice.
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On January 19 2012 21:50 Cereb wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 21:46 labbe wrote:On January 19 2012 21:44 BrassMonkey27 wrote:On January 19 2012 21:42 labbe wrote:
Blizzard better fix the protoss race in Heart of the Swarm. They are just sooo boring to watch no matter what race they face, but PvT is the worst. Sucks to watch starcraft when you know beforehand that every match including a protoss will be boring to watch. Starts and ends with the Collossi man. Most boring unit in a starcraft game. Takes very little skill to use, is extremely powerful, and if they die the Toss is fucked. The unit needs a complete redesign or be replaced with something else. Not to mention they are ugly to look at! This is pretty much it, I just don't think that Blizzard realizes this. This is all so true. The warp gate mechanics encourage all in gateway play but even if you decide to tech up we have the king of all A move units waiting - The Colossous - This mofo doesn't even care for units, cliffs or forcefields in its way :/
I agree that the colossus is a flawed unit and is bad for the game. Its so easy to micro cuz it can walk over walls and over units and its huge so its not like you have trouble finding it in the battle. Maybe there is a place for it but it should be more equivalent with broodlords. You dont see broodlords at the 12th minute mark.
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On January 19 2012 21:52 R!! wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 21:46 HolyArrow wrote:On January 19 2012 21:42 HeroUlyssess wrote:On January 19 2012 21:41 xinxy wrote:On January 19 2012 21:40 avilo wrote:On January 19 2012 21:39 double620 wrote:
8 terrans in the ro16, but all the terrans are crying that they are too weak.
There were more Terrans than the other races at the start of the format to begin with...you realize that right? Which reinforces the point that Terran are still too strong? I mean if the tournament had nothing but T some of them would still be eliminated, you realize that right? More like the old Code S format made it very hard to drop out and hard to get into, and it just as easily could have been 15 Zergs in Code S or 15 protosses We can spend all day talking about hypotheticals but the fact is that overall, Terran statistically has had an edge in Korea for a significant portion of last year, and it shows in the racial distribution of Code S towards the end of last year. Also, even if you want to make the argument that it's very hard to drop out and very hard to get into, then you also have to acknowledge the fact that despite how hard you say it was to get into Code S with the old format, a disproportionate of Terrans managed to do so to make it so that there were roughly 20 Terrans for a couple seasons. They managed to do that ages ago, and stayed there because the format made it so, which created a false sense of terran dominance.
The old "format" argument doesn't make any sense. It implies that the game was balanced, so the winrates were about 50/50, but poor Terrans managed to stay in because of the format. It's utter bollocks because if you look at the winrates, they were NOT 50/50. Terran still won most of their matches against Protoss in Code S for a long time.
That has nothing to do with the format which retained players.
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On January 19 2012 21:46 KiNGxXx wrote:Don't whine about TvP, just watch an epic one: Naniwa vs Strelok right now at IEM! 
Good looking out bro!
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yes parting wins in code s too, i did know it back in november - he is so talented!
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On January 19 2012 21:56 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 21:52 R!! wrote:On January 19 2012 21:46 HolyArrow wrote:On January 19 2012 21:42 HeroUlyssess wrote:On January 19 2012 21:41 xinxy wrote:On January 19 2012 21:40 avilo wrote:On January 19 2012 21:39 double620 wrote:
8 terrans in the ro16, but all the terrans are crying that they are too weak.
There were more Terrans than the other races at the start of the format to begin with...you realize that right? Which reinforces the point that Terran are still too strong? I mean if the tournament had nothing but T some of them would still be eliminated, you realize that right? More like the old Code S format made it very hard to drop out and hard to get into, and it just as easily could have been 15 Zergs in Code S or 15 protosses We can spend all day talking about hypotheticals but the fact is that overall, Terran statistically has had an edge in Korea for a significant portion of last year, and it shows in the racial distribution of Code S towards the end of last year. Also, even if you want to make the argument that it's very hard to drop out and very hard to get into, then you also have to acknowledge the fact that despite how hard you say it was to get into Code S with the old format, a disproportionate of Terrans managed to do so to make it so that there were roughly 20 Terrans for a couple seasons. They managed to do that ages ago, and stayed there because the format made it so, which created a false sense of terran dominance. The old "format" argument doesn't make any sense. It implies that the game was balanced, so the winrates were about 50/50, but poor Terrans managed to stay in because of the format. It's utter bollocks because if you look at the winrates, they were NOT 50/50. Terran still won most of their matches against Protoss in Code S for a long time. That has nothing to do with the format which retained players.
Back when some of those terrans got into Code S, say back in march 2011, the game wasn't balanced. but Star2 has become far more balanced since then. but due to terrans getting in due to imbalance, a racial disparity was created that lasted for an extended period of time due to the Code S format of old.
there, explained.
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On January 19 2012 21:42 Ricemagical wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 21:34 Tsubbi wrote:On January 19 2012 21:30 Fionn wrote:
This could be the first time ever where Protoss isn't last in racial distribution in the Ro16 in GSL history. last season had 5p 3z in ro16 also august had 4 p 3z july 5p 4z may 5p 4z march 5p 4z january 4p 3z lol im frustrated now, in essence zerg sucks You're getting 16 and 32 confused bro.
No, you are. His numbers are correct, check liquipedia.
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On January 19 2012 21:49 Mobius_1 wrote:
Just because the less renowned player defeated an old legend (who hasn't even been amazing lately) does not make the matchup auto imba.
You speak of him being a cheeser, doing an one-base all-in in the first game but what was Nada doing? There was some luck involved that he happened to 1) force the Banshee to stay in base and defend and 2) scout the Banshee before it killed him but it was just a disappointing and anticlimatic win, doesn't say much about balance or player skill to be honest.
Second game he went for a supposed eco-cheese because it's not OK to do any build other than 1 or 3 gate expand, otherwise you are just...... But recall that Nada went for a BO that relied on dealing early damage against early expanding Protosses to be even but failed at 1) scouting and 2) executing the attack, leaving him down a base, down workers, and down/even in army which meant he was far, far behind at such an early stage of the game when Puzzle could chronoboost Probes from 2 Nexuses. Puzzle simply capitalised on the early lead and converted it into an overwhelming attack.
Of course it might be different if Nada wasn't attacking the rocks or built bunkers but what's to stop Puzzle from expanding again and getting more ahead? Puzzle is still Code S even if he may not be a Golden Mouse winner or have a worship thread on TL, but he is still Code S and not likely to throw away such a huge lead. (BTW not likely, not impossible, he could still pull some tragic antics.)
That's all simply false, when was the last time a terran straight up won because he went for cloak banshees?35 years ago.
How many wins have you seen due to 7 gate in the GSL, and what about the strength of 1 base blink stalker robo vs 1raxFE?We wish that 2 rax and 1/1/1 still worked so we could have free wins.
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On January 19 2012 21:55 Ysellian wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 21:53 forsooth wrote:On January 19 2012 21:50 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:On January 19 2012 21:49 forsooth wrote:On January 19 2012 21:44 Corrosive wrote:
How to subtly balance whine without getting in trouble:
Say watching protoss is boring because of how the race is designed!
If a protoss does anything besides long 40 minute games it's an "all in" or its "cheese"
T-T The only thing worse than watching Protoss do a 7 gate is watching Protoss play a 40 minute game. Protoss is boring, badly designed, and never fun to watch. Balance is a different concern. Translation: I play T, P smash! rarrrrr Except I thoroughly enjoy watching Zerg play as well, and even ZvZ. And I used to play Protoss in BW. Still do sometimes. This isn't some expression of rage about losing TvP on ladder too much. I actually do fine vs Protoss. That doesn't make Protoss well designed or interesting to play or watch, however. Protoss in brood war was the most entertaining race to watch IMHO and this coming from a BW Terran like myself.
Protoss in BW was awesome . Blizzard completely botched the whole race in SC2 , not in a sense of balance but in design. It starts with Warpgate which is just a completely stupid idea to begin with. Protoss is just not very interesting to watch and play tbh. ( at least for me and a good portion of the community
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On January 19 2012 21:54 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +Balance:
- Terran have the strongest and most versatile 1 base all ins (we can argue this, but it's the truth).
- Protoss have the strongest and most versatile 2 base all ins (we can argue this, but it's the truth).
- Zerg have the strongest and most versatile macro, by producing workers and or workers from the same source and not needing multiple production buildings.
Learning how to hold and defend against protoss 2 base all ins are basically pretty much what higher end ZvP is about.
That Terran needs to learn to do the same is just as it should be. Agreed. But Protoss also have a stronger late game army vs T. This is true for T v Z as well, T has a better late game with ghost vs zergs.
I believe the end game can go either way, it depends on who got more advantages on the mid game or who got the better position in the blob vs blob final fight.
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On January 19 2012 21:52 R!! wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 21:46 HolyArrow wrote:On January 19 2012 21:42 HeroUlyssess wrote:On January 19 2012 21:41 xinxy wrote:On January 19 2012 21:40 avilo wrote:On January 19 2012 21:39 double620 wrote:
8 terrans in the ro16, but all the terrans are crying that they are too weak.
There were more Terrans than the other races at the start of the format to begin with...you realize that right? Which reinforces the point that Terran are still too strong? I mean if the tournament had nothing but T some of them would still be eliminated, you realize that right? More like the old Code S format made it very hard to drop out and hard to get into, and it just as easily could have been 15 Zergs in Code S or 15 protosses We can spend all day talking about hypotheticals but the fact is that overall, Terran statistically has had an edge in Korea for a significant portion of last year, and it shows in the racial distribution of Code S towards the end of last year. Also, even if you want to make the argument that it's very hard to drop out and very hard to get into, then you also have to acknowledge the fact that despite how hard you say it was to get into Code S with the old format, a disproportionate of Terrans managed to do so to make it so that there were roughly 20 Terrans for a couple seasons. They managed to do that ages ago, and stayed there because the format made it so, which created a false sense of terran dominance.
Tell me what month the format changed to the format then you speak of, then. Specify the month. Because I'm seeing Terran numbers go from 14 to 15 to 17 to 20 from May to October. That's an awful lot of growth for Code S being hard to get in to as you claim. Don't forget that Terran numbers increasing also implies P/Z numbers decreasing from Code S, so you say it's very hard to drop out, but it seems that it was pretty easy for all those P/Z players to drop out from May to October while Ts managed to make it into Code S consistently in that time period despite how you say that the format made it very hard to get into.
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On January 19 2012 21:59 R!! wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 21:49 Mobius_1 wrote:
Just because the less renowned player defeated an old legend (who hasn't even been amazing lately) does not make the matchup auto imba.
You speak of him being a cheeser, doing an one-base all-in in the first game but what was Nada doing? There was some luck involved that he happened to 1) force the Banshee to stay in base and defend and 2) scout the Banshee before it killed him but it was just a disappointing and anticlimatic win, doesn't say much about balance or player skill to be honest.
Second game he went for a supposed eco-cheese because it's not OK to do any build other than 1 or 3 gate expand, otherwise you are just...... But recall that Nada went for a BO that relied on dealing early damage against early expanding Protosses to be even but failed at 1) scouting and 2) executing the attack, leaving him down a base, down workers, and down/even in army which meant he was far, far behind at such an early stage of the game when Puzzle could chronoboost Probes from 2 Nexuses. Puzzle simply capitalised on the early lead and converted it into an overwhelming attack.
Of course it might be different if Nada wasn't attacking the rocks or built bunkers but what's to stop Puzzle from expanding again and getting more ahead? Puzzle is still Code S even if he may not be a Golden Mouse winner or have a worship thread on TL, but he is still Code S and not likely to throw away such a huge lead. (BTW not likely, not impossible, he could still pull some tragic antics.) That's all simply false, when was the last time a terran straight up won because he went for cloak banshees?35 years ago. How many wins have you seen due to 7 gate in the GSL, and what about the strength of 1 base blink stalker robo vs 1raxFE?We wish that 2 rax and 1/1/1 still worked so we could have free wins.
didn't MC lost to cloack banshee in his group?
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Any ides when the group nominations are?
Or are they not broadcasted?
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I only hope this season a non terran can win it. It is getting boring to see terran winning.
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On January 19 2012 22:03 blacklist_member wrote:
Any ides when the group nominations are?
Or are they not broadcasted?
20 hours 7 minutes time my friend
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On January 19 2012 22:01 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 21:54 vthree wrote:Balance:
- Terran have the strongest and most versatile 1 base all ins (we can argue this, but it's the truth).
- Protoss have the strongest and most versatile 2 base all ins (we can argue this, but it's the truth).
- Zerg have the strongest and most versatile macro, by producing workers and or workers from the same source and not needing multiple production buildings.
Learning how to hold and defend against protoss 2 base all ins are basically pretty much what higher end ZvP is about.
That Terran needs to learn to do the same is just as it should be. Agreed. But Protoss also have a stronger late game army vs T. This is true for T v Z as well, T has a better late game with ghost vs zergs. I believe the end game can go either way, it depends on who got more advantages on the mid game or who got the better position in the blob vs blob final fight.
Ehh the fight can but if the Terran allows the Protoss to get too big of an economy with 20+ Warpgates he'll lose at some point since reeinforcing is slower as Terran.
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On January 19 2012 22:02 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 21:52 R!! wrote:On January 19 2012 21:46 HolyArrow wrote:On January 19 2012 21:42 HeroUlyssess wrote:On January 19 2012 21:41 xinxy wrote:On January 19 2012 21:40 avilo wrote:On January 19 2012 21:39 double620 wrote:
8 terrans in the ro16, but all the terrans are crying that they are too weak.
There were more Terrans than the other races at the start of the format to begin with...you realize that right? Which reinforces the point that Terran are still too strong? I mean if the tournament had nothing but T some of them would still be eliminated, you realize that right? More like the old Code S format made it very hard to drop out and hard to get into, and it just as easily could have been 15 Zergs in Code S or 15 protosses We can spend all day talking about hypotheticals but the fact is that overall, Terran statistically has had an edge in Korea for a significant portion of last year, and it shows in the racial distribution of Code S towards the end of last year. Also, even if you want to make the argument that it's very hard to drop out and very hard to get into, then you also have to acknowledge the fact that despite how hard you say it was to get into Code S with the old format, a disproportionate of Terrans managed to do so to make it so that there were roughly 20 Terrans for a couple seasons. They managed to do that ages ago, and stayed there because the format made it so, which created a false sense of terran dominance. Tell me what month the format changed to the format then you speak of, then. Specify the month. Because I'm seeing Terran numbers go from 14 to 15 to 17 to 20 from May to October. That's an awful lot of growth for Code S being hard to get in to as you claim. Don't forget that Terran numbers increasing also implies P/Z numbers decreasing from Code S, so you say it's very hard to drop out, but it seems that it was pretty easy for all those P/Z players to drop out from May to October while Ts managed to make it into Code S consistently in that time period despite how you say that the format made it very hard to get into.
you forget how that number has dropped from 20 in October to 15 this month, that is a small indicator that the problem with the racial disparity in code S was due to the old format. If anything, what you said helps my argument and damages yours.
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On January 19 2012 21:50 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 21:47 R!! wrote:On January 19 2012 21:39 xinxy wrote:
The Terran tears in this thread are pretty delicious I gotta say. I mean there's as many T left in r16 as P and Z combined but that won't stop cries of imbalance apparently. It must be absolute Terran majority for the game to be "balanced". Except the percentage of protoss players going through is bigger whilst their skill definetely isn't ( 7gate 7gate vray allin, macro game = 20 min without starting +1 armor). Yeah, go ahead and stick to talking about unquantifiable things like skill while we talk pure, objective numbers. Your statement about lacking +1 armor by 20 minutes in is also kind of funny. You must really be reaching if you had to use that as one of your criticisms.
Percentages seem to be a pretty quantifiable thing to me, and fighting with 1/0 against 2/2 , max vs max ,should be close to an auto loss to me, apparently it isn't.
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EPT
