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On November 20 2011 22:17 Hierarch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 22:15 Daray wrote:On November 20 2011 22:13 Hierarch wrote:
You need storm and archons to help fight this muta ball, phoenix are not the answer, I don't care how godly at micro you are they just die too fast storm + archon is easier atleast. Phoenix can work but he stopped making them which you can't do. Even if he kept making them you just cannot keep up, also the zerg just gets to take the map while harassing you which just lets them make mutas to phoenix at like a 3:1 rate Also did Apollo just say Ryung has the best TvT in the world? It's pretty well known that MVP does and MMA probably being second best. Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 22:16 Jehct wrote:On November 20 2011 22:13 Hierarch wrote:
You need storm and archons to help fight this muta ball, phoenix are not the answer, I don't care how godly at micro you are they just die too fast If you keep up with production and just go stalker/zealot/phoenix they can do fine against mutaling. Phoenixes do absolutely stupid damage to muta you just can't let the zerg engage. Trying to go colossus like that leaves nothing for your phoenix to fall back to =/ Not fun (not to mention it was like 3:1 muta to phoenix rofl). Stalker/Zealot/Phoenix lose horribly to 35+ mutas, especially 2/1 mutas
The benefit of going phoenix is that you have equal mobility and can expand much more freely. Going colossus rather than blink stalker to support meant he couldn't do that. Sure, they lose if you have 8 phoenix against 35+ 2:1 mutas with +attack upgrades. If you go armor/shield upgrades, keep up with phoenix production and don't throw away your mobility with colossus you can see how good phoenix really are.
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United Kingdom12023 Posts
On November 20 2011 22:17 Hierarch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 22:15 Daray wrote:On November 20 2011 22:13 Hierarch wrote:
You need storm and archons to help fight this muta ball, phoenix are not the answer, I don't care how godly at micro you are they just die too fast storm + archon is easier atleast. Phoenix can work but he stopped making them which you can't do. Even if he kept making them you just cannot keep up, also the zerg just gets to take the map while harassing you which just lets them make mutas to phoenix at like a 3:1 rate Also did Apollo just say Ryung has the best TvT in the world? It's pretty well known that MVP does and MMA probably being second best.
Ryung is known as the TvT sniper, many people believe that Ryung has some of the best TvT in the world, or he did at one point. MMA and MVP seems to have surpassed him slightly know.
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On November 20 2011 22:16 Baituri wrote:
So how are phoenix going to beat muta's? I understand that Grubby was so far behind that it was almost an unwinnable game. But Phoenix are supposed to "Counter" Mutalisks and I can't see them doing it after watching this.
Stephano always had way more mutas than grubby had phoenixes plus I believe for a lot of the fights, Stephanos mutas were 2-0 compared to 0-0, with grubby's air attack upgrade coming after quite a number of engagements.
Stephano didn't even play well imo, but was just way ahead thanks to that poor decision from grubby at the start.
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On November 20 2011 22:18 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 22:16 Baituri wrote:
So how are phoenix going to beat muta's? I understand that Grubby was so far behind that it was almost an unwinnable game. But Phoenix are supposed to "Counter" Mutalisks and I can't see them doing it after watching this. You need crazy good micro. The pheonix has 1 or 2? range more than a muta and can move while shooting, to actually pull that off you could win an unwinnable situation but it's so hard to do that and macro at the same time. That's why Grubby couldn't beat the mutas, he couldn't make more at the same time as attacking in.
They have one more range and you can't make a single mistake when microing them or you start to lose them too quickly, it's not a practical response due to the inability to micro that hard and macro
On November 20 2011 22:18 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 22:17 Hierarch wrote:On November 20 2011 22:15 Daray wrote:On November 20 2011 22:13 Hierarch wrote:
You need storm and archons to help fight this muta ball, phoenix are not the answer, I don't care how godly at micro you are they just die too fast storm + archon is easier atleast. Phoenix can work but he stopped making them which you can't do. Even if he kept making them you just cannot keep up, also the zerg just gets to take the map while harassing you which just lets them make mutas to phoenix at like a 3:1 rate Also did Apollo just say Ryung has the best TvT in the world? It's pretty well known that MVP does and MMA probably being second best. Ryung is known as the TvT sniper, many people believe that Ryung has some of the best TvT in the world, or he did at one point. MMA and MVP seems to have surpassed him slightly know.
He was like 3 GSL seasons ago, he's just gotten worse off late it seems.
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On November 20 2011 22:19 Hierarch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 22:18 Qikz wrote:On November 20 2011 22:16 Baituri wrote:
So how are phoenix going to beat muta's? I understand that Grubby was so far behind that it was almost an unwinnable game. But Phoenix are supposed to "Counter" Mutalisks and I can't see them doing it after watching this. You need crazy good micro. The pheonix has 1 or 2? range more than a muta and can move while shooting, to actually pull that off you could win an unwinnable situation but it's so hard to do that and macro at the same time. That's why Grubby couldn't beat the mutas, he couldn't make more at the same time as attacking in. They have one more range and you can't make a single mistake when microing them or you start to lose them too quickly, it's not a practical response due to the inability to micro that hard and macro Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 22:18 Qikz wrote:On November 20 2011 22:17 Hierarch wrote:On November 20 2011 22:15 Daray wrote:On November 20 2011 22:13 Hierarch wrote:
You need storm and archons to help fight this muta ball, phoenix are not the answer, I don't care how godly at micro you are they just die too fast storm + archon is easier atleast. Phoenix can work but he stopped making them which you can't do. Even if he kept making them you just cannot keep up, also the zerg just gets to take the map while harassing you which just lets them make mutas to phoenix at like a 3:1 rate Also did Apollo just say Ryung has the best TvT in the world? It's pretty well known that MVP does and MMA probably being second best. Ryung is known as the TvT sniper, many people believe that Ryung has some of the best TvT in the world, or he did at one point. MMA and MVP seems to have surpassed him slightly know. He was like 3 GSL seasons ago, he's just gotten worse off late it seems.
he's gotten worse as mech began to fall back again. he still has some of the best mech plays, as mma said
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Ok I've tuned in twice in the last two days and both times there have been almost an hour long break, is that how it works in general or am I just unlucky when tuning in?
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On November 20 2011 22:18 Jehct wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 22:17 Hierarch wrote:On November 20 2011 22:15 Daray wrote:On November 20 2011 22:13 Hierarch wrote:
You need storm and archons to help fight this muta ball, phoenix are not the answer, I don't care how godly at micro you are they just die too fast storm + archon is easier atleast. Phoenix can work but he stopped making them which you can't do. Even if he kept making them you just cannot keep up, also the zerg just gets to take the map while harassing you which just lets them make mutas to phoenix at like a 3:1 rate Also did Apollo just say Ryung has the best TvT in the world? It's pretty well known that MVP does and MMA probably being second best. On November 20 2011 22:16 Jehct wrote:On November 20 2011 22:13 Hierarch wrote:
You need storm and archons to help fight this muta ball, phoenix are not the answer, I don't care how godly at micro you are they just die too fast If you keep up with production and just go stalker/zealot/phoenix they can do fine against mutaling. Phoenixes do absolutely stupid damage to muta you just can't let the zerg engage. Trying to go colossus like that leaves nothing for your phoenix to fall back to =/ Not fun (not to mention it was like 3:1 muta to phoenix rofl). Stalker/Zealot/Phoenix lose horribly to 35+ mutas, especially 2/1 mutas The benefit of going phoenix is that you have equal mobility and can expand much more freely. Going colossus rather than blink stalker to support meant he couldn't do that. Sure, they lose, if you have 8 phoenix against 35+ 2:1 mutas with +attack upgrades. If you go armor/shield upgrades mutas start to scale horribly and you can watch a zerg get really upset.
Going phoenix from scratch when the mutas have already popped will result in a loss 100% of the time because you can't keep up with the zerg. Colossus was obviously the wrong choice. To afford the air upgrades and ground upgrades and make multiple stargates isn't feasible with the gas available.
On November 20 2011 22:23 Xcobidoo wrote:
Ok I've tuned in twice in the last two days and both times there have been almost an hour long break, is that how it works in general or am I just unlucky when tuning in?
Unlucky
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On November 20 2011 22:23 Xcobidoo wrote:
Ok I've tuned in twice in the last two days and both times there have been almost an hour long break, is that how it works in general or am I just unlucky when tuning in?
Are they not allowed a lunch break?
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On November 20 2011 22:23 Hierarch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 22:18 Jehct wrote:On November 20 2011 22:17 Hierarch wrote:On November 20 2011 22:15 Daray wrote:On November 20 2011 22:13 Hierarch wrote:
You need storm and archons to help fight this muta ball, phoenix are not the answer, I don't care how godly at micro you are they just die too fast storm + archon is easier atleast. Phoenix can work but he stopped making them which you can't do. Even if he kept making them you just cannot keep up, also the zerg just gets to take the map while harassing you which just lets them make mutas to phoenix at like a 3:1 rate Also did Apollo just say Ryung has the best TvT in the world? It's pretty well known that MVP does and MMA probably being second best. On November 20 2011 22:16 Jehct wrote:On November 20 2011 22:13 Hierarch wrote:
You need storm and archons to help fight this muta ball, phoenix are not the answer, I don't care how godly at micro you are they just die too fast If you keep up with production and just go stalker/zealot/phoenix they can do fine against mutaling. Phoenixes do absolutely stupid damage to muta you just can't let the zerg engage. Trying to go colossus like that leaves nothing for your phoenix to fall back to =/ Not fun (not to mention it was like 3:1 muta to phoenix rofl). Stalker/Zealot/Phoenix lose horribly to 35+ mutas, especially 2/1 mutas The benefit of going phoenix is that you have equal mobility and can expand much more freely. Going colossus rather than blink stalker to support meant he couldn't do that. Sure, they lose, if you have 8 phoenix against 35+ 2:1 mutas with +attack upgrades. If you go armor/shield upgrades mutas start to scale horribly and you can watch a zerg get really upset. Going phoenix from scratch when the mutas have already popped will result in a loss 100% of the time because you can't keep up with the zerg. Colossus was obviously the wrong choice. To afford the air upgrades and ground upgrades and make multiple stargates isn't feasible with the gas available. Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 22:23 Xcobidoo wrote:
Ok I've tuned in twice in the last two days and both times there have been almost an hour long break, is that how it works in general or am I just unlucky when tuning in? Unlucky
You don't need ground upgrades (unless the zerg is getting them, and then you can afford them), and he made the 2stargate transition fine, he just didn't maintain production. I really don't think it should be a viable choice if you don't see spire tech until the mutas are in your base but that game made it look very, very possible.
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whitera vs thorzain in the lower bracket, they better show it
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On November 20 2011 22:25 betaman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 22:23 Xcobidoo wrote:
Ok I've tuned in twice in the last two days and both times there have been almost an hour long break, is that how it works in general or am I just unlucky when tuning in? Are they not allowed a lunch break?
dont be so harsh, dude. he asked politely and gets such a reproachful answer.
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On November 20 2011 22:25 betaman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 22:23 Xcobidoo wrote:
Ok I've tuned in twice in the last two days and both times there have been almost an hour long break, is that how it works in general or am I just unlucky when tuning in? Are they not allowed a lunch break?
Totally unacceptable! No, no of course, just didn't realize it since I don't have any sound on o-)
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On November 20 2011 22:27 Jehct wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 22:23 Hierarch wrote:On November 20 2011 22:18 Jehct wrote:On November 20 2011 22:17 Hierarch wrote:On November 20 2011 22:15 Daray wrote:On November 20 2011 22:13 Hierarch wrote:
You need storm and archons to help fight this muta ball, phoenix are not the answer, I don't care how godly at micro you are they just die too fast storm + archon is easier atleast. Phoenix can work but he stopped making them which you can't do. Even if he kept making them you just cannot keep up, also the zerg just gets to take the map while harassing you which just lets them make mutas to phoenix at like a 3:1 rate Also did Apollo just say Ryung has the best TvT in the world? It's pretty well known that MVP does and MMA probably being second best. On November 20 2011 22:16 Jehct wrote:On November 20 2011 22:13 Hierarch wrote:
You need storm and archons to help fight this muta ball, phoenix are not the answer, I don't care how godly at micro you are they just die too fast If you keep up with production and just go stalker/zealot/phoenix they can do fine against mutaling. Phoenixes do absolutely stupid damage to muta you just can't let the zerg engage. Trying to go colossus like that leaves nothing for your phoenix to fall back to =/ Not fun (not to mention it was like 3:1 muta to phoenix rofl). Stalker/Zealot/Phoenix lose horribly to 35+ mutas, especially 2/1 mutas The benefit of going phoenix is that you have equal mobility and can expand much more freely. Going colossus rather than blink stalker to support meant he couldn't do that. Sure, they lose, if you have 8 phoenix against 35+ 2:1 mutas with +attack upgrades. If you go armor/shield upgrades mutas start to scale horribly and you can watch a zerg get really upset. Going phoenix from scratch when the mutas have already popped will result in a loss 100% of the time because you can't keep up with the zerg. Colossus was obviously the wrong choice. To afford the air upgrades and ground upgrades and make multiple stargates isn't feasible with the gas available. On November 20 2011 22:23 Xcobidoo wrote:
Ok I've tuned in twice in the last two days and both times there have been almost an hour long break, is that how it works in general or am I just unlucky when tuning in? Unlucky You don't need ground upgrades (unless the zerg is getting them, and then you can afford them), and he made the 2stargate transition fine, he just didn't maintain production. I really don't think it should be a viable choice if you don't see spire tech until the mutas are in your base but that game made it look very, very possible.
Without ground upgrades stalkers do pitiful damage to mutas and you can't beat mass mass muta with pure phoenix, unless you have 400 apm and perfect mechanics. Mass mass muta has been a known problem for protoss and it still hasn't been perfectly figured out on how to fight it effectively.
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On November 20 2011 22:30 Hierarch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 22:27 Jehct wrote:On November 20 2011 22:23 Hierarch wrote:On November 20 2011 22:18 Jehct wrote:On November 20 2011 22:17 Hierarch wrote:On November 20 2011 22:15 Daray wrote:On November 20 2011 22:13 Hierarch wrote:
You need storm and archons to help fight this muta ball, phoenix are not the answer, I don't care how godly at micro you are they just die too fast storm + archon is easier atleast. Phoenix can work but he stopped making them which you can't do. Even if he kept making them you just cannot keep up, also the zerg just gets to take the map while harassing you which just lets them make mutas to phoenix at like a 3:1 rate Also did Apollo just say Ryung has the best TvT in the world? It's pretty well known that MVP does and MMA probably being second best. On November 20 2011 22:16 Jehct wrote:On November 20 2011 22:13 Hierarch wrote:
You need storm and archons to help fight this muta ball, phoenix are not the answer, I don't care how godly at micro you are they just die too fast If you keep up with production and just go stalker/zealot/phoenix they can do fine against mutaling. Phoenixes do absolutely stupid damage to muta you just can't let the zerg engage. Trying to go colossus like that leaves nothing for your phoenix to fall back to =/ Not fun (not to mention it was like 3:1 muta to phoenix rofl). Stalker/Zealot/Phoenix lose horribly to 35+ mutas, especially 2/1 mutas The benefit of going phoenix is that you have equal mobility and can expand much more freely. Going colossus rather than blink stalker to support meant he couldn't do that. Sure, they lose, if you have 8 phoenix against 35+ 2:1 mutas with +attack upgrades. If you go armor/shield upgrades mutas start to scale horribly and you can watch a zerg get really upset. Going phoenix from scratch when the mutas have already popped will result in a loss 100% of the time because you can't keep up with the zerg. Colossus was obviously the wrong choice. To afford the air upgrades and ground upgrades and make multiple stargates isn't feasible with the gas available. On November 20 2011 22:23 Xcobidoo wrote:
Ok I've tuned in twice in the last two days and both times there have been almost an hour long break, is that how it works in general or am I just unlucky when tuning in? Unlucky You don't need ground upgrades (unless the zerg is getting them, and then you can afford them), and he made the 2stargate transition fine, he just didn't maintain production. I really don't think it should be a viable choice if you don't see spire tech until the mutas are in your base but that game made it look very, very possible. Without ground upgrades stalkers do pitiful damage to mutas and you can't beat mass mass muta with pure phoenix, unless you have 400 apm and perfect mechanics.
The stalkers tank, the phoenix do more than enough damage. So long as you have stalkers to kite back to, the zerg can never, ever engage (since the mutas will auto-target stalkers as phoenix move away). With that in mind you just whittle down the muta ball with your phoenix ball.
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This discussion is a bit pointless, as grubby lost nearly all his probes before (he could have GGed right there imho), so he was supposed to have twice as much stuff, in which case it would be fine.
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On November 20 2011 22:34 Jehct wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 22:30 Hierarch wrote:On November 20 2011 22:27 Jehct wrote:On November 20 2011 22:23 Hierarch wrote:On November 20 2011 22:18 Jehct wrote:On November 20 2011 22:17 Hierarch wrote:On November 20 2011 22:15 Daray wrote:On November 20 2011 22:13 Hierarch wrote:
You need storm and archons to help fight this muta ball, phoenix are not the answer, I don't care how godly at micro you are they just die too fast storm + archon is easier atleast. Phoenix can work but he stopped making them which you can't do. Even if he kept making them you just cannot keep up, also the zerg just gets to take the map while harassing you which just lets them make mutas to phoenix at like a 3:1 rate Also did Apollo just say Ryung has the best TvT in the world? It's pretty well known that MVP does and MMA probably being second best. On November 20 2011 22:16 Jehct wrote:On November 20 2011 22:13 Hierarch wrote:
You need storm and archons to help fight this muta ball, phoenix are not the answer, I don't care how godly at micro you are they just die too fast If you keep up with production and just go stalker/zealot/phoenix they can do fine against mutaling. Phoenixes do absolutely stupid damage to muta you just can't let the zerg engage. Trying to go colossus like that leaves nothing for your phoenix to fall back to =/ Not fun (not to mention it was like 3:1 muta to phoenix rofl). Stalker/Zealot/Phoenix lose horribly to 35+ mutas, especially 2/1 mutas The benefit of going phoenix is that you have equal mobility and can expand much more freely. Going colossus rather than blink stalker to support meant he couldn't do that. Sure, they lose, if you have 8 phoenix against 35+ 2:1 mutas with +attack upgrades. If you go armor/shield upgrades mutas start to scale horribly and you can watch a zerg get really upset. Going phoenix from scratch when the mutas have already popped will result in a loss 100% of the time because you can't keep up with the zerg. Colossus was obviously the wrong choice. To afford the air upgrades and ground upgrades and make multiple stargates isn't feasible with the gas available. On November 20 2011 22:23 Xcobidoo wrote:
Ok I've tuned in twice in the last two days and both times there have been almost an hour long break, is that how it works in general or am I just unlucky when tuning in? Unlucky You don't need ground upgrades (unless the zerg is getting them, and then you can afford them), and he made the 2stargate transition fine, he just didn't maintain production. I really don't think it should be a viable choice if you don't see spire tech until the mutas are in your base but that game made it look very, very possible. Without ground upgrades stalkers do pitiful damage to mutas and you can't beat mass mass muta with pure phoenix, unless you have 400 apm and perfect mechanics. The stalkers tank, the phoenix do more than enough damage. So long as you have stalkers to kite back to the zerg can never, ever engage (since the mutas will auto-target stalkers as phoenix move away) and you should just whittle down the muta ball with your phoenix ball.
Stalkers and tank don't belong in the same sentence, stalkers are so flimsy it's not even funny. You haven't seen enough mass mass muta games if you don't think the zerg will never ever engage. Without splash it's not feasible.
On November 20 2011 22:36 Blix wrote:
This discussion is a bit pointless, as grubby lost nearly all his probes before (he could have GGed right there imho), so he was supposed to have twice as much stuff, in which case it would be fine.
Oh ya, this is more about mass mas mutas vs P than the Grubby game lol
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On November 20 2011 22:37 Hierarch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 22:34 Jehct wrote:On November 20 2011 22:30 Hierarch wrote:On November 20 2011 22:27 Jehct wrote:On November 20 2011 22:23 Hierarch wrote:On November 20 2011 22:18 Jehct wrote:On November 20 2011 22:17 Hierarch wrote:On November 20 2011 22:15 Daray wrote:On November 20 2011 22:13 Hierarch wrote:
You need storm and archons to help fight this muta ball, phoenix are not the answer, I don't care how godly at micro you are they just die too fast storm + archon is easier atleast. Phoenix can work but he stopped making them which you can't do. Even if he kept making them you just cannot keep up, also the zerg just gets to take the map while harassing you which just lets them make mutas to phoenix at like a 3:1 rate Also did Apollo just say Ryung has the best TvT in the world? It's pretty well known that MVP does and MMA probably being second best. On November 20 2011 22:16 Jehct wrote:On November 20 2011 22:13 Hierarch wrote:
You need storm and archons to help fight this muta ball, phoenix are not the answer, I don't care how godly at micro you are they just die too fast If you keep up with production and just go stalker/zealot/phoenix they can do fine against mutaling. Phoenixes do absolutely stupid damage to muta you just can't let the zerg engage. Trying to go colossus like that leaves nothing for your phoenix to fall back to =/ Not fun (not to mention it was like 3:1 muta to phoenix rofl). Stalker/Zealot/Phoenix lose horribly to 35+ mutas, especially 2/1 mutas The benefit of going phoenix is that you have equal mobility and can expand much more freely. Going colossus rather than blink stalker to support meant he couldn't do that. Sure, they lose, if you have 8 phoenix against 35+ 2:1 mutas with +attack upgrades. If you go armor/shield upgrades mutas start to scale horribly and you can watch a zerg get really upset. Going phoenix from scratch when the mutas have already popped will result in a loss 100% of the time because you can't keep up with the zerg. Colossus was obviously the wrong choice. To afford the air upgrades and ground upgrades and make multiple stargates isn't feasible with the gas available. On November 20 2011 22:23 Xcobidoo wrote:
Ok I've tuned in twice in the last two days and both times there have been almost an hour long break, is that how it works in general or am I just unlucky when tuning in? Unlucky You don't need ground upgrades (unless the zerg is getting them, and then you can afford them), and he made the 2stargate transition fine, he just didn't maintain production. I really don't think it should be a viable choice if you don't see spire tech until the mutas are in your base but that game made it look very, very possible. Without ground upgrades stalkers do pitiful damage to mutas and you can't beat mass mass muta with pure phoenix, unless you have 400 apm and perfect mechanics. The stalkers tank, the phoenix do more than enough damage. So long as you have stalkers to kite back to the zerg can never, ever engage (since the mutas will auto-target stalkers as phoenix move away) and you should just whittle down the muta ball with your phoenix ball. Stalkers and tank don't belong in the same sentence, stalkers are so flimsy it's not even funny. You haven't seen enough mass mass muta games if you don't think the zerg will never ever engage. Without splash it's not feasible. Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 22:36 Blix wrote:
This discussion is a bit pointless, as grubby lost nearly all his probes before (he could have GGed right there imho), so he was supposed to have twice as much stuff, in which case it would be fine. Oh ya, this is more about mass mas mutas vs P than the Grubby game lol
Stalkers can tank muta (they're like the worst cost-dps unit around). They don't have to tank for very long for the absolutely fucking stupid (seriously) dps of phoenixes to kill half the muta ball and force him to run. If the game actually drags out blink + muta's awful scaling against armor upgrades means he fucking has to transition no matter what, even if you never get HT's (assuming you start ground upgrades with your third).
Stalkers actually do a really decent job tanking muta, they just look like they're bad at it because their dps is so fucking awful. Pair them with something that hurts and it's solid - HT's are just really good at filling that role.
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On November 20 2011 22:36 Blix wrote:
This discussion is a bit pointless, as grubby lost nearly all his probes before (he could have GGed right there imho), so he was supposed to have twice as much stuff, in which case it would be fine.
yes. this. end of discussion. it is pointless to discuss balance of mutas when the game was lost after 6 minutes.
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On November 20 2011 22:45 Jayjay54 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 22:36 Blix wrote:
This discussion is a bit pointless, as grubby lost nearly all his probes before (he could have GGed right there imho), so he was supposed to have twice as much stuff, in which case it would be fine. yes. this. end of discussion. it is pointless to discuss balance of mutas when the game was lost after 6 minutes.
You're right, discussing ideas/strategies and their drawbacks after a game where a pretty rarely seen strategy was seen (reactive phoenix) is an awful idea. No one's talking about balance, we're talking about possible answers to mutaling (and whether it's just stalker > HT/archon or not).
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EPT
