So why are Protoss entitled to maps with lots of chokes so they can take expansions with impunity? We need more maps with 20% ZvP win rates like Daybreak?

Protoss is entitled to enough chokes that they can win games. Under 30% winrate on daybreak is unacceptable for any race, both should be fixed.

PrinceXizor

United States17713 Posts

September 26 2011 20:42 GMT

#1122

So if anyone is upset at protoss winning these games. it's not a big deal. metagame shifts always involve an "unbeatable" strategy. solely because it beats the current choices of a race. but that does NOT mean it is close to unbeatable. i've been suggesting protosses do this to zerg and that zergs would be unable to stop this for a while since MC won his seconds GSL. Whiplash should be able to attest to this when i told him in person that DT -> archon drops would beat zerg pretty consistantly at zergs current understanding of the game.

this can be beaten by a faster lair accompanied by double evo upgrades to compensate vs regular builds. note how lucky learned from game 1 and used zerglings to protect from DTs zerglings are some of the best defense vs DTs since they can block important buildings from death and kill DTs pretty fast. generally if zergs play this properly things work out to be a 4-5 base zerg vs 3-4 base protoss and games become much larger. the fast expo DT has weaknesses in which zerg can harrass with using zerglings + mutalisks to harrass in this weakpoints without going all in. and allowing them to take and secure a fourth base.

CeriseCherries

6170 Posts

September 26 2011 20:57 GMT

#1123

...sigh... one sided mirror matches and sage...

at least protoss is less sad

Cassel_Castle

United States820 Posts

September 26 2011 21:52 GMT

#1124

On September 27 2011 00:54 sitromit wrote:

Show nested quote +

It's the kind of Protoss "skill" where they cancel their nexus and 4 gate while forcefielding the ramp of the Zerg, so he can't even reinforce, while the Toss keeps warping in units at their heart's content from their conveniently placed nearby pylons. It takes an extreme amount of skill. You have to keep pressing "F"!

It's also nearly impossible on most current maps since you can engage with spines and lings really far away from the ramp.

Choboo

Sweden2088 Posts

September 26 2011 21:55 GMT

#1125

On September 27 2011 04:48 sitromit wrote:

Show nested quote +

So why are Protoss entitled to maps with lots of chokes so they can take expansions with impunity? We need more maps with 20% ZvP win rates like Daybreak?

Daybreak is DRG's favorite map :oo

Brotatolol

United States1742 Posts

September 27 2011 00:47 GMT

#1126

Wow, that was some nice warp prism play from Sage last night. I'm hoping to see him win Code A this season for a definite code S spot, even though I'm sure he'd be able to make it through the up and down matches

WombaT

Northern Ireland18332 Posts

September 27 2011 01:45 GMT

#1127

Ok to summarise:

'Sage won with an exploitation of the timings on a quick third hatch + delayed lair to beat a Zerg with minimal detection = new king of Protoss'

'MC only won with timing knowledge and exploiting them, he's figured out and now sucks'

Both of these players are talented talented guys. Far too much bandwagoning on these forums.

Probe1

United States17920 Posts

September 27 2011 01:53 GMT

#1128

On September 27 2011 04:53 MrCon wrote:

Show nested quote +

Bleh.
So Daybreak with its 22% ZvP winrate is not ok but Dual Sight with its 28% PvZ is ?

Daybreak is still a very new map and I hold my opinion until more games are played on it. A lot of the losses I attribute to the other player being better, not the map.

On the other hand Dual Sight is tried and tested yet Protoss still has an abysmal record on it. That map may need revisions.

To your other comment about overseers and spores in the main/third/natural/proxied on the other side of the map.

I suppose it is a weighted risk. You can't afford to be everywhere without being behind and you gamble on where you defend. We saw two Zergs lose to great DT placement. We also saw Huk look just as bad because he tried to DT through the natural.

I think the solution is less spores or the same amount of spores and a overseer at home. At only the third of the prior cost, it seems silly not to make one.

Ubertron: You're missing the point where Sage appeared with zealots and DTs. I don't have the urge to dissect the differences in Sage and MCs current play but instead: Sage is putting up results, MC is not. There are differences, even if not fundamental ones, in the players approach to the game.

snakeeyez

United States1231 Posts

September 27 2011 01:57 GMT

#1129

Sage is pimp. Who would think when they see a doom zerg drop to drop down a bunch of pylons to cut up the zerg roaches knowing they have bad range so his 6 range stalkers can pick them off without wasting an force fields? One protoss I can think of his name is Sage.

Hierarch

United States2197 Posts

September 27 2011 03:36 GMT

#1130

On September 27 2011 10:45 Ubertron wrote:
Ok to summarise:

'Sage won with an exploitation of the timings on a quick third hatch + delayed lair to beat a Zerg with minimal detection = new king of Protoss'

'MC only won with timing knowledge and exploiting them, he's figured out and now sucks'

Both of these players are talented talented guys. Far too much bandwagoning on these forums.

Atleast he's trying something new, I mean c'mon he did archon drops :D

rezoacken

Canada2719 Posts

September 27 2011 04:04 GMT

#1131

Why are some people criticizing Sage for timing attacks ?

A timing is different than an all in (or usually a timing all-in). Starcraft is all about timings... and timing attacks. What do you want player to do ? attack at random time when the opponent is the strongest lol ?

bittman

Australia8759 Posts

September 27 2011 04:10 GMT

#1132

On September 27 2011 13:04 rezoacken wrote:
Why are some people criticizing Sage for timing attacks ?

A timing is different than an all in (or usually a timing all-in). Starcraft is all about timings... and timing attacks. What do you want player to do ? attack at random time when the opponent is the strongest lol ?

Hahaha. Every player does timing attacks, but for some reason when used on a Protoss player the term "timing attack" has become a negative.

Any attack that is planned is a timing attack, meant to line up with something. Whether new research, new units, a falter by the enemy, etc. To be honest I'm not sure what a "timing attack" is, but I would guess a "planned offensive against the opponent in order to line up with research" is the definition?

And I don't see any issue with this. Sage uses timing attacks? Fantastic, so does every other player.

JesusOurSaviour

Australia1141 Posts

September 27 2011 04:11 GMT

#1133

On September 27 2011 10:57 snakeeyez wrote:
Sage is pimp. Who would think when they see a doom zerg drop to drop down a bunch of pylons to cut up the zerg roaches knowing they have bad range so his 6 range stalkers can pick them off without wasting an force fields? One protoss I can think of his name is Sage.

Pimpest plays incoming

I hope some youtube fanatic does a pimpest plays of 2011 for SCII. A perfectly executed warp prism HT-drop-storm combo would definitely feature

hai2u

688 Posts

September 27 2011 04:15 GMT

#1134

Sage shouldnt have changed his name, FreeDSL is one of TheBest names ever.

Deleted User 183001

2939 Posts

September 27 2011 04:50 GMT

#1135

I hope Sage wins Code A in order to bring some Protoss vengeance >: )

RinconH

United States512 Posts

September 27 2011 16:50 GMT

#1136

Sage = Che Guevara Toss.

Bringing hope.

I want to see what he does vs. Terran though... specifically holding early all-ins/timings.

He's only played Z so far...

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