EPT[GSL] July Code S SemiFinals - Page 140
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_vladimir_
Serbia530 Posts
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On July 25 2011 20:53 WindCalibur wrote: Protoss in China has been having a lot of success doing what many people would call an all-in, consisting of mass blink stalkers into a 3rd while opening up to tech options. Terrans have variety of different openings that indirectly constrains the zerg on their mobility and somewhat "control" what their opponent can do. For example, hellions gives the terran a lot of map control, which gives the terran an element of surprise and allow him to put indirect pressure. Going reaper opening makes sure that the zerg does not overdrone and can also give map control. Doing technical timing attacks that exploit drone and tech timings of the zerg also forces you to put pressure, regardless of whether you completely commit to the attack or just pull back after doing soft pressure. Truth is, top zergs are ahead of the metagame curve right now and terrans and protoss DO need to work harder in order to catch up. Also to your BW players comment, Flash can come to sc2 and play terran and will still rape. Nestea is just doing things that people are not used to seeing. He is what you call someone "ahead" of the curve, much like savior was when he was in his prime. Protoss in China are doing nothing outside of China except beating some people unused to their style in a bo3 in the Stars Wars tourney, how is anything they do relevant to what we are discussing since we aren't actually seeing them against people like Nestea. All of these cute tactics come down to zergs learning how to defend them, which is part of why zerg was faltering for so long until they realized what timings they could do. If the zerg does defend them, like Nestea is known for (hence his 'unstoppable aura') then they just go on to roll the opponent---which is just bad game design. There shouldn't be a skill ceiling like that where if you are able to hit a certain level then you are completely favored over the other races. There's nothing "metagame curve" about that. Nestea isn't doing some magical metagame. He didn't figure out some revolutionary special new unit combination where broodlords can shoot banelings. He knows how to defend things and understands timings, so he can go to 80 drones when other people have 50 scvs. What I'm saying is that if there was Flash v Jaedong in SC2 I'm confident that Jaedong would win not because of being better, but because if both played perfectly then Jaedong would almost always win. | ||
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
On July 25 2011 21:06 setzer wrote: People are angry most zerg users are giant hypocrites. Zerg wins: "better player won, loser just played bad or didn't abuse" Terran wins: "imba tanks, bunkers, marines" Protoss wins: "lol forcefield imba, blink imba" Even Idra whines along those lines most of the time. Keep in mind Team Liquid is about 40% Zerg based on the last poll I saw, that's why there's the trend of games with Zerg winning getting recommended and Zerg losing getting...not recommended. Ultimately there's complaints about balance always, but the better players win. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
On July 25 2011 21:04 Xeanrot wrote: I rarely whine about balance but final with 2 zergs who both won 3-0 in semi... I think Losira and Nestea are better player than Byun or Hongun but still 3-0. I really think we need nerf for zerg Were you calling for terran to be nerfed when Polt and MMA were playing each other in the last finals? | ||
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
On July 25 2011 21:03 tdt wrote: GSL 2 wasn't that bad either. Exceptions don't make the rule. SC2 is a game that does not allow combacks so much like BW. As such player who strategist best usually blows out the other. Time allows that. It's not the fault of the format (or the game for that matter) if the losing player is not able to execute his strategies properly or defend against his opponents strategies. Also I would honestly doubt that players will go 100% for the same strategy that they've been planning on later maps in a Bo7. And we're coming to the point where back-and-forth and comeback situations are becoming increasingly common in most match-ups and that players don't die to one attack. | ||
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Serpico
4285 Posts
On July 25 2011 21:06 setzer wrote: People are angry most zerg users are giant hypocrites. Zerg wins: "better player won, loser just played bad or didn't abuse" Terran wins: "imba tanks, bunkers, marines" Protoss wins: "lol forcefield imba, blink imba" Even Idra whines along those lines most of the time. Ok, but the better player should win and they did. Plus when one of them is the best player in the world you can't use them as an average example of anything because they're the best in the world and their standards are far above any normal player regardless of race. Ironically the late game broods--infestors never even occurred once in either matchup which is what most people complain about anyways. | ||
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Morrisson
289 Posts
On July 25 2011 21:06 setzer wrote: People are angry most zerg users are giant hypocrites. Zerg wins: "better player won, loser just played bad or didn't abuse" Terran wins: "imba tanks, bunkers, marines" Protoss wins: "lol forcefield imba, blink imba" Even Idra whines along those lines most of the time. This ^^ | ||
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
On July 25 2011 21:09 Heavenly wrote: Protoss in China are doing nothing outside of China except beating some people unused to their style in a bo3 in the Stars Wars tourney, how is anything they do relevant to what we are discussing since we aren't actually seeing them against people like Nestea. All of these cute tactics come down to zergs learning how to defend them, which is part of why zerg was faltering for so long until they realized what timings they could do. If the zerg does defend them, like Nestea is known for (hence his 'unstoppable aura') then they just go on to roll the opponent---which is just bad game design. There shouldn't be a skill ceiling like that where if you are able to hit a certain level then you are completely favored over the other races. There's nothing "metagame curve" about that. Nestea isn't doing some magical metagame. He didn't figure out some revolutionary special new unit combination where broodlords can shoot banelings. He knows how to defend things and understands timings, so he can go to 80 drones when other people have 45. If there's anything that you can use to explain all the good Protosses from China is that China obviously had the biggest WC3 scene and Protoss takes the most advantage of good micro, with forcefields and storms and all that good jazz, it seems like the more natural transition from game to game. | ||
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Gescom
Canada3516 Posts
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setzer
United States3284 Posts
On July 25 2011 21:13 Gescom wrote: I really hope Gom prepares some sort of golden mouse style prize for Nestea if he were to win a 3rd title. Honestly, three GSL titles doesn't mean as much as three OSL titles. I hope they at least wait until maybe 5 titles to present a special trophy, otherwise I see the accomplishment becoming cheapened after a couple of years. | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On July 25 2011 21:10 Serpico wrote: Ok, but the better player should win and they did. Plus when one of them is the best player in the world you can't use them as an average example of anything because they're the best in the world and their standards are far above any normal player regardless of race. Ironically the late game broods--infestors never even occurred once in either matchup which is what most people complain about anyways. How can you make the claim that Losira is actually a better player than Byun though? If zerg is imbalanced then how could you consider any member of that race to be "the best in the world"? Obviously imbalance didn't come into play at all in these games since Byun got way too behind in the early game in game 1 and got all-inned game 3 but you still can't act like Losira is objectively better than Byun. I'd consider Byun a good deal better in TvZ than Losira is in ZvT just because he doesn't recklessly through away units for no reason and a-move. The thing that won him the second game was the map allowing for the counter attack so Byun could basically never move out without that happening (stupid map design) and baneling bombs (stupid game design where a lucky placement can kill a ton of units and change the game around completely, but I guess reavers and spider mines were similar and BW was still fine). | ||
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brentsen
1252 Posts
On July 25 2011 21:13 Gescom wrote: I really hope Gom prepares some sort of golden mouse style prize for Nestea if he were to win a 3rd title. I really hope they don't do that. | ||
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leBIGcrab
France313 Posts
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bearhug
United States999 Posts
On July 25 2011 21:13 Gescom wrote: I really hope Gom prepares some sort of golden mouse style prize for Nestea if he were to win a 3rd title. Well. One needs to win 3 consecutive GSL, not 3 GSL. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
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BandonBanshee
Canada437 Posts
Zomg all zerg does is whine!! * then whines about how good zerg is * | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On July 25 2011 21:20 BandonBanshee wrote: Average post in this LR: Zomg all zerg does is whine!! * then whines about how good zerg is * Average post by a zerg in this LR: Zomg all other players do is whine about how good zerg is. *laughs about how they whine even though they whined constantly for the last year until a lot of the things they disliked got nerfed into the ground* On July 25 2011 21:20 tomatriedes wrote: For all the 'zerg is OP' whiners consider this- these semi-finals could have been very different if MC and Bomber had made it through instead of Hongun and Byun. I know TvZ isn't Bomber's best match up but a player of his skill would still have put up a better fight than this. Bomber isn't that great TvZ and no one can say if it would've been different if MC made it through. Hongun played extremely well. | ||
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jdreamer
Australia296 Posts
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PrAeToR.FeNiX
Canada361 Posts
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
On July 25 2011 21:16 Heavenly wrote: How can you make the claim that Losira is actually a better player than Byun though? If zerg is imbalanced then how could you consider any member of that race to be "the best in the world"? Obviously imbalance didn't come into play at all in these games but you still can't act like Losira is objectively better than Byun. I'd consider Byun a good deal better in TvZ than Losira is in ZvT just because he doesn't recklessly through away units for no reason and a-move. The thing that won him the second game was the map allowing for the counter attack so Byun could basically never move out without that happening (stupid map design) and baneling bombs (stupid game design where a lucky placement can kill a ton of units and change the game around completely, but I guess reavers and spider mines were similar and BW was still fine). Your post is so wrong on so many ways. 1. Losira made the better decisions when he was under attack from Byun in game 2... containing the small force of SCVs and marines and holding his attack till he had speed. He also made the better decision to go all in knowing he was 2-0 up and had not much to lose. I would agree that Byun played very well, but ultimately, Losira was just the better player. 2. Almost every map has a 2nd attack path. Metalopolis, Xel'Naga, Taldarim. Are you calling those maps stupidly designed? 3. You pretty much counter your own argument by comparing baneling bombs to reavers and spider mines. Baneling bombs are not stupid. They force your opponents to be more cautious, just like DTs, Banshees, blue flame hellions, etc. It's just an aspect of playing the game. | ||
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