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On July 22 2011 14:36 NeSE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 14:25 jobebob wrote:On July 22 2011 14:07 NeSE wrote:On July 22 2011 13:59 jobebob wrote:
Classic pyramid scheme. For every person that makes it to the 6th round (getting first in a 4096 man tourney) they (Ne-Se) make around $40,000. The best part about this is that they don't need to do anything; they don't even need to have the players go a full 6 rounds or any amount of rounds for that matter, to make a profit. Everything is automated! I have absolutely no idea how you arrived at this conclusion but the truth of this matter has been explained in several topics in several ways at this point. Simple, right now the way your tournament is set up is super shady. Lets model your profit margin: a*p^b + (a/(p-2))*(2^b-p^b) where a is the reg fee, p is the bracket size, and b is the number of round. So right now in your case a=$20, p=4, b=6 do the math: 41,600 Notice how the second part of the equation is always going to be smaller, and goes up exponentially for every extra round you have. Secondly you say that there will be 50 players in the round of 7. Does that mean you expect 204,800 players to sign up? Unless I misunderstood your format, this is impossible. Now I have no problem with tournaments making a profit but I don't see how you can justify a profit margin that looks like this: + Show Spoiler +for basically not actually producing any content. I know you are based in Vegas and all, but most of the country has laws against this sort of thing. This is an insane version of our prize pool system and make absolutely no sense. We actually have our prize pool system broken down on a chart for everyone to clearly see in our office. I assure, what is posted on our wall is absolutely nothing like what you have mentioned here. This event is NOT designed to be a money maker or generate any revenue at all for the NeSE organization. Nor is the possibility of revenue from registrations even counted on amongst our team. The goal of this tournament is to provide the best possible event that we can provide and that is Costing us money from Season start to Season finish. I must admit, since when is the profit of a company anyone's concern? This is our product and this is what we are featuring. Unfortunately, at this time, we have to charge an entry fee in order to continue our organization forward we cannot depend on community donations, sorry. We hope to one day be able to provide this exact format but at no cost regarding entry fee, but that is not possible at this time.
From your website:
1)Once a player or team is signed up, the player or team will be entered into a four person bracket system to compete and determine a winner. In order to win a round, you must win both games in your bracket.
2)Each tournament setting (1vs1 and 2vs2) is a separate tournament with separate prizes and games.
3)For example, if you are registered for both Starcraft2's 2vs2 setting and 1vs1 setting, you would be entered in both bracket settings and have to play both sets of designated games. A participant who registers for both settings will have to win 4 games total in order to win both rounds in 1vs1 and 2vs2. They are completely separate.
4)If you win both games in the 1vs1 setting and lose your first game in the 2vs2 you will be disqualified from 2vs2, but continue to round 2 of the 1vs1 bracket.
5)If a player wins round two and then loses in round three, he/she still wins $60 from winning rounds one and two.
This is what I used to model your system. You pay one entry fee. If you lose you are out and cannot go to the next round. This is exactly what my model shows. 6 rounds means 4096 playes which is 4 players per round to the power of 6 for 6 rounds. Is there some kind of typo on your website, please explain it.
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The information about the tournament that is from our web site that you listed, is 100% accurate. Again, I have to let you know I am no math scholar and your breakdown is FAR different than the one that I have come to understand. I think you are making our system far more complicated than it actually is.
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On July 22 2011 13:42 NeSE wrote:
Believe me when I tell you I was pretty surprised to see anyone even mention the old name because we had a total of 300 hits to that web site in the month it was operational and those hits were from the programmers, designers and other employees. To be honest I wish I had known people actually knew about The Gaming World Series, we would have fought harder to preserve the name.
I find that hard to believe based on the fact you seemed to advertise the old website on quite a few forums, including the sc2 forums.Couple examples: [1][2][3]
On July 22 2011 14:18 Nathris wrote:
Feel bad for the guy if everything he says is true. It's all pretty weird, but there's no proof that it's a scam, I'm pretty sure there would be an angry forum post somewhere on Google if people had their money taken by the first iteration of the tournament. Insistent that there will be an announcement on August 1st that makes this sound more legitimate, might as well wait until then before judging. The first signup deadline isn't until two months after August 1st, so if it's just a grab for money, giving people all that time to decide and promising a blizzard endorsement so soon would be an odd move to make.
http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=672719&st=0&p=7656369&#entry7656369
http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=672720&mode=linear
On July 22 2011 12:54 NeSE wrote:
It is incredible how extensive some of your research actually is. Please let me put all your minds to rest. As I said earlier we have been working on this project for over 17 months now. We have been changing and adapting our event based on public feedback and have NEVER started a registration EVER until this actual pre-launch. Our previous formats received great feedback and we elected to take our time with this event and work diligently towards providing the best possible environment. The Gaming World Series was the previous name of this exact same event and we are the same exact owners. We did not scam anyone nor did we do any formal announcements.
Care to explain why it was clearly advertised as a tournament, and the site had an active/working registration and paypal account if registration wasn't actually open?
On July 22 2011 14:18 Nathris wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:51 Kuchcio wrote: ... Also since the website is online, and you guys are owners you guys can face legal actions such as fines or arrest for allowing pornographic materials get to the minors, but that is the only thing I know since I am not a lawyer Forums that aren't maintained being infiltrated by a spambots isn't uncommon, and the owner of the site can't be held accountable for what the spambots post. That's why any forum has you agree to terms of use before registering. Like this from TL's terms of use + Show Spoiler +TeamLiquid does not control or guarantee the accuracy, integrity or quality of user submitted content posted on the site. We take no responsibility and assume no liability for any user submitted content, or for any mistakes, defamation, slander, libel, omissions, falsehoods, obscenity, pornography, or profanity you may encounter. All content posted by users, including any opinions, advice or recommendations expressed, are those of the users providing such content and not those of TeamLiquid. Unless otherwise stated, we do not endorse any user submitted content or any opinion, recommendation or advice.
No such clause exists on their website (website toc nor forum toc).
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There was NEVER an active PayPal feature on our previous tournament domain. We began to feature a PRE-REGISTRATION that did not allow people to pay it was simply a way to submit information / show interest.
As I said earlier, we were VERY CLOSE to being able to initiate registrations. Then we were directed to change certain aspects of our event based on Legal Ramifications. Which, had you been involved prior to this thread, you would know we made substantial changes since that time. At this current point in time we have nothing but green lights ahead and can guarantee a formal launch and announcement on August 1st.
I have to ask you, why are you so persistent on proving this is a scam or not a real event? Do you not enjoy new types of tournaments being featured in eSports? Especially ones that allow you to not only participate but also provide you with a substantial chance to win.
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On July 22 2011 14:55 NeSE wrote:
The information about the tournament that is from our web site that you listed, is 100% accurate. Again, I have to let you know I am no math scholar and your breakdown is FAR different than the one that I have come to understand. I think you are making our system far more complicated than it actually is.
Ok here lemme go through it step by step, and if I made a mistake or if I misunderstood your rules, I am sorry, but the math here is a representation of what is found on your website.
The tournament is single elim, which means once a player is out they stop advancing to the next round and are out of the tournament. Thus to make it to round of 6 would mean to go through 6 consecutive 4 man brackets with only one person making it out each time. So 4*4*4*4*4*4 is the number of players required so that one person gets to round of 6.
So that makes up 4096 players or 4^6. Each of these players pay 20 bucks, so you make 20*4^6 or $81,920. Now after round one there are only 1024 players left and they get their money back so take out 20*4^(6-1-0) or 20*1024 which is 20,480. You are now down to 60k is. After the next round, (round of 2), there will be 256 players left, and they each will get 20*2^n, or 20*2^1=$40
which is another 10k you have to give back.
This is where the $20*Sum( (-1)*(2^n)*(4^(6-1-n)) I posted comes from. Now if that is not how the tournament works please clarify. Because right now this is basically a ponzy scheme of some sorts
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On July 22 2011 15:04 NeSE wrote:
As I said earlier, we were VERY CLOSE to being able to initiate registrations. Then we were directed to change certain aspects of our event based on Legal Ramifications. Which, had you been involved prior to this thread, you would know we made substantial changes since that time. At this current point in time we have nothing but green lights ahead and can guarantee a formal launch and announcement on August 1st.
I have to ask you, why are you so persistent on proving this is a scam or not a real event? Do you not enjoy new types of tournaments being featured in eSports? Especially ones that allow you to not only participate but also provide you with a substantial chance to win.
Could you explain what aspects of the event were changed based on legal ramifications? Because as far as I can tell, the formats on each site are identical.
I'm persistent because I can tell a scam when I can see one, and I'd rather not see legitimate esports players scammed out of their money. Just ask Chris Hill.
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well we will all know more for sure later on when additional information is supposed to be provided
August first I think
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I have answered all of these questions and we are beginning to become repetitive. I also posted a section of our Contract with Blizzard Entertainment. If your persistence is to ensure quality for the community would that not satisfy your quest? Also, I have to ask if you are an individual who utilizes forums to voice their opinion, why not contact me in a private message? Ask me more direct and personal questions that would get more accomplished, as other people did? Then you can post your overall feedback here on this thread or in a new one, whichever you prefer.
We are attempting to announce ourselves here on TL in the most positive light possible and whether you believe it or not we ARE an Official Licensed Organizer. There is an entire organization of people behind the name you are so desperately trying to slaughter here. Me personally, as someone who is dedicated to eSports, I can assure you I would never Attack another organizer or anyone putting together something good for eSports as my initial response. I can tell you this for sure, if I were to discover an event is completely full of it, I would be the first one to let as many individuals know as humanly possible at that point with my proof.
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On July 22 2011 15:25 NeSE wrote:
I have answered all of these questions and we are beginning to become repetitive. I also posted a section of our Contract with Blizzard Entertainment. If your persistence is to ensure quality for the community would that not satisfy your quest? Also, I have to ask if you are an individual who utilizes forums to voice their opinion, why not contact me in a private message? Ask me more direct and personal questions that would get more accomplished, as other people did? Then you can post your overall feedback here on this thread or in a new one, whichever you prefer.
We are attempting to announce ourselves here on TL in the most positive light possible and whether you believe it or not we ARE an Official Licensed Organizer. There is an entire organization of people behind the name you are so desperately trying to slaughter here. Me personally, as someone who is dedicated to eSports, I can assure you I would never Attack another organizer or anyone putting together something good for eSports as my initial response. I can tell you this for sure, if I were to discover an event is completely full of it, I would be the first one to let as many individuals know AT that point with my proof.
Except no you didn't... Do you think I don't know what the contract looks like or something? I don't understand how you think you fooled me.
New tournaments get announced all the time, and they are great. Want to know why? Because they don't have a history of scamming people behind them. So how you expected to be welcomed with open arms as a scammer is beyond any bounds of belief. G2Wolf continues to expose more and more lies told by you, and you can't prove any legitimacy.
You can sound all professional and patient all you want to. That works on some people, but hopefully they will see this read and see right through the bullcrap scam artist like you say. Its your job to make this sound safe and put people at ease so they give you the money. Its our job at the community to make them well aware of the trick your running.
What its looking like to me is you made a great sum of money the first time, so you decided to give it another go. I sincerely hope you don't make a dime this time, and am confident you won't.
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Are you suggesting what I pasted up there before was falsified information?
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What you pasted is NOT from a tournament licensing agreement. You think NESL doesn't have one?
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On July 22 2011 15:25 NeSE wrote:
I have answered all of these questions and we are beginning to become repetitive.
How are we getting repetitive here? I brought up an issue, you responded to it, I gave evidence showing the exact opposite, you ignored that and pushed on advertising. I guess we are getting repetitive in that aspect but you haven't contradicted any of the evidence I've given that shows that this is a scam and none of my questions have been repetitive.
On July 22 2011 15:25 NeSE wrote:
I also posted a section of our Contract with Blizzard Entertainment.
The section you posted was a random section of the Blizzard terms of service. You did not post any section of the tournament license, which is surprisingly because generic copies can easily be found with a google search
On July 22 2011 15:25 NeSE wrote:
If your persistence is to ensure quality for the community would that not satisfy your quest? Also, I have to ask if you are an individual who utilizes forums to voice their opinion, why not contact me in a private message? Ask me more direct and personal questions that would get more accomplished, as other people did? Then you can post your overall feedback here on this thread or in a new one, whichever you prefer.
I am bringing this up in public because it would appear that the tournament is a scam and others deserve to know whether or not this is a legitimate tournament before they spend their money and have it end up missing as others have had theirs.
On July 22 2011 15:25 NeSE wrote:
We are attempting to announce ourselves here on TL in the most positive light possible and whether you believe it or not we ARE an Official Licensed Organizer. There is an entire organization of people behind the name you are so desperately trying to slaughter here.
And from what I've seen, the only person involved in the organization is you, because I've yet to find any other evidence of someone else working with you on this project, on either the old site or new or any other posts.
On July 22 2011 15:25 NeSE wrote:
Me personally, as someone who is dedicated to eSports, I can assure you I would never Attack another organizer or anyone putting together something good for eSports as my initial response. I can tell you this for sure, if I were to discover an event is completely full of it, I would be the first one to let as many individuals know as humanly possible at that point with my proof.
And yet you criticize and attack me for doing something you say you would do. Oh the irony.
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There is not one single post anywhere on the entire internet about anyone making a payment to us and us running away with it OR anything even of that nature. I do not know who suggested patience to you on my behalf but mine are growing thin with you specifically. Everything you have displayed in all of your posts show signs of raw ignorance and inept immaturity. Nothing that you have posted has made any sense thus far nor have you used any references to reinforce anything you've said.
At least G2Wolf has had the capability to quote posts and link references to attempt to reinforce his argument. Everything he linked and posted I explicitly explained without any clarification issues. Yes we did host a previous event. No we did not take in any money that is why there are no posts anywhere stating such. I have just recently become aware that the original web site is still accessible and available. To our knowledge the designers who developed that site were well aware it needed to come down immediately. Clearly that is not the case, but there is nothing I can do after 5pm PST and it something I will deal with first thing in the morning.
You can continue to list these same things over and over again, but frankly you have proven your level intelligence quite clearly. I absolutely pasted a section of our Blizzard Agreement and your incompetence was displayed when you suggested that was "bogus information". Since I am sitting here staring at the document that is signed by Michael Morhaime in two sections dated December 2nd, 2010.
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On July 22 2011 15:39 G2Wolf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 15:25 NeSE wrote:
I have answered all of these questions and we are beginning to become repetitive. How are we getting repetitive here? I brought up an issue, you responded to it, I gave evidence showing the exact opposite, you ignored that and pushed on advertising. I guess we are getting repetitive in that aspect but you haven't contradicted any of the evidence I've given that shows that this is a scam and none of my questions have been repetitive. Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 15:25 NeSE wrote:
I also posted a section of our Contract with Blizzard Entertainment. The section you posted was a random section of the Blizzard terms of service. You did not post any section of the tournament license, which is surprisingly because generic copies can easily be found with a google search Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 15:25 NeSE wrote:
If your persistence is to ensure quality for the community would that not satisfy your quest? Also, I have to ask if you are an individual who utilizes forums to voice their opinion, why not contact me in a private message? Ask me more direct and personal questions that would get more accomplished, as other people did? Then you can post your overall feedback here on this thread or in a new one, whichever you prefer. I am bringing this up in public because it would appear that the tournament is a scam and others deserve to know whether or not this is a legitimate tournament before they spend their money and have it end up missing as others have had theirs. Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 15:25 NeSE wrote:
We are attempting to announce ourselves here on TL in the most positive light possible and whether you believe it or not we ARE an Official Licensed Organizer. There is an entire organization of people behind the name you are so desperately trying to slaughter here. And from what I've seen, the only person involved in the organization is you, because I've yet to find any other evidence of someone else working with you on this project, on either the old site or new or any other posts. Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 15:25 NeSE wrote:
Me personally, as someone who is dedicated to eSports, I can assure you I would never Attack another organizer or anyone putting together something good for eSports as my initial response. I can tell you this for sure, if I were to discover an event is completely full of it, I would be the first one to let as many individuals know as humanly possible at that point with my proof. And yet you criticize and attack me for doing something you say you would do. Oh the irony.
Please contact me privately and I will provide you with a Non-Disclosure Agreement, then I will forward you our Blizzard Agreement. I am literally available to accomplish this right now.
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On July 22 2011 15:44 NeSE wrote:
There is not one single post anywhere on the entire internet about anyone making a payment to us and us running away with it OR anything even of that nature. I do not know who suggested patience to you on my behalf but mine are growing thin with you specifically. Everything you have displayed in all of your posts show signs of raw ignorance and inept immaturity. Nothing that you have posted has made any sense thus far nor have you used any references to reinforce anything you've said.
At least G2Wolf has had the capability to quote posts and link references to attempt to reinforce his argument. Everything he linked and posted I explicitly explained without any clarification issues. Yes we did host a previous event. No we did not take in any money that is why there are no posts anywhere stating such. I have just recently become aware that the original web site is still accessible and available. To our knowledge the designers who developed that site were well aware it needed to come down immediately. Clearly that is not the case, but there is nothing I can do after 5pm PST and it something I will deal with first thing in the morning.
You can continue to list these same things over and over again, but frankly you have proven your level intelligence quite clearly. I absolutely pasted a section of our Blizzard Agreement and your incompetence was displayed when you suggested that was "bogus information". Since I am sitting here staring at the document that is signed by Michael Morhaime in two sections dated December 2nd, 2010.
No posts? Really? Even though I linked to two threads already? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=245230¤tpage=7#123
You also did not explain how I was able to link to a working paypal section on the old site even though you claim there was -never- a paypal section -at any point- on that website.
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On July 22 2011 15:44 NeSE wrote:
You can continue to list these same things over and over again, but frankly you have proven your level intelligence quite clearly. I absolutely pasted a section of our Blizzard Agreement and your incompetence was displayed when you suggested that was "bogus information". Since I am sitting here staring at the document that is signed by Michael Morhaime in two sections dated December 2nd, 2010.
Oh yours was signed by Michael Morhaime? I'm jealous because ours wasn't hahahhaha
How deep you want to dig this hole man?
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Correct me if I'm wrong please but I'm trying to understand how the payouts work. If we take what they posted literally I think this is what the payout would look like. This assumes all rounds are played that are listed. Obviously they won't get 204k players but just take it for what it's worth. This should read after round 1 there are x players left. At the end of the playoffs 3 players get paid, etc.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/F9qbw.png)
Now let's consider a more reasonable size. Say 1024 players.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7jPci.png)
I assume the playoffs have to happen right?
I apologize if I made a mistake or something, this is just how I read the rules from the site.
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That is now how the tournament system works at all, it is not in full bracket form like that. It breaks down each round by percentages. Although based on what you came out with, it would sure be nice if it did work out that way...
There are also two rounds in the tournament where 1 player will receive a bye into the next round and, depending on the registration amount, an instance where 2 players will only play each other in order to advance forward.
Based on the percentages our registration cap is 50,000 players.
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I'm basing that on these claims:
-Players who win the first round of the tournament will be awarded 20 credits to their account and each round won by a player will show as credits equal to dollars (1 credit = 1 dollar). Once a player has either been eliminated or won that tournament and advanced to the NE-SE Playoffs, they will receive payment for all the prize money they earned throughout that tournament.
-The system will continue on in this fashion where 25% of all participants in each round will be deemed winners and advance further until we reach 50 players or teams.
-At 50 players or teams we will transition from a multiple bracket system into a round robin setting. Then, those 50 players or teams will compete day by day in scheduled, arranged matches for a two week time period.
Maybe I will re-read, perhaps I made a mistake.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ESSO2.jpg)
