On June 23 2011 08:32 Sharkey wrote: If this is the NASL (where NA stands for North America) I think it would be prudent to have a large sample size of its players from North America. Am I asking that they league be overtly biased towards N.A. players? Yes! Does that mean that N.A. players will have an easier time qualifying and staying in the league? Yes!
In that case you can say goodbye to an awful lot of subscribers. I personally bought the HD pass, it was probably worth it and assuming more Koreans qualify I think I'll pay again, but there's no chance on this earth I pay $25 to see Strife Cro vs Minigun, it's just not going to happen and I'm sure a lot of people agree. The money I pay is not to see the NASL it's to see it's players and it's not unconditional.
Agreed. I will immediately unsubscribe if NASL decided to make it NA biased. They already play on NA server that is enough of an advantage. Everything else would just ruin the legitimacy of the competition imo. I can`t believe people are actually complaining about "too much" koreans. Really?! Are you guys watching starcraft and the games? I don`t care where the player is from I want to see high level play and NASL first season has done that for the most part.
Season one had a hand picked selection of good players and fan favourites. I still think this was a really good way of filling 50 difficult slots without an elimination tournament. However this had it's problems leading to some players who perhaps weren't 'good enough' playing the season.
From now on I want to see the best players qualify. I don't care if they're Korean, American or European so long as no player sees any other as a walkover or free win. Protectionism leads to stagnation.
It's now apparent every single set lost in group play matters. With the bottom 16 dropped every season, the NASL would appear be pretty easy to break in to if you're good enough. Over the next two weeks there will be two open qualification tournaments and you need only make Top 8 in either tournament to guarantee 9 weeks of group play. Compare it to code B if you will, to me this seems very generous!
Big up to all the NASL crew, this is a tournament that once you're in to it rewards consistently good play rather than the luck of the draw. If you limp out 0-9 (see Painuser) your professional reputation is strongly on the line. Long may it continue.
On June 06 2011 11:33 TDN wrote: "registration is simple and easy, and is $10 per player"
I don't know what's wrong with NA tournaments, but every big tournament, players have to pay a certain amount of money to participate. How is this helping esport? This is more like greedy business than an esport competition.
Just look at EU and KR tournaments. Everything is free. GSL doesn't cost a penny to spectate or participate, and they even have free Coke drink and sometimes pizza.
This is just funny. It reminds me of those internet scam where you participate in a survey and at the end they ask for your credit card number.
How is this anything like a Survey asking for your credit card? I do think 10$ is a bit steep seeing that its not a LAN tourny, but how else will they supply winnings for the winners? Do you not understand how money works? GSL doesnt need anyone to pay to play in their tournament because they have something called sponsors and these sponsors pay for the winnings. Like LG and Coca-cola. You have a lot of learning to do kid.
I noticed virtually the entire TSL team is signed up (and in good position) in the Open Tourney. I find this very exciting. Looking forward to another NASL season - ignore the haters! Although it looks like there's one or two weak openings for relatively unknown people to qualify (the Nightend-Attero-Cocoa-Zelniq+4 people I don't know bracket for one spot and the DeMuslim-Agh+6 people I don't know bracket for another spot).
Nevertheless, I expect 6 top-end qualifiers (or people who beat top end players) and a few names that could become cool stories if they get hot during season 2.
(Poor Ret)
Edit - I just read the post above mine. Wow some people know nothing about what they're talking about.
Big up to all the NASL crew, this is a tournament that once you're in to it rewards consistently good play rather than the luck of the draw. If you limp out 0-9 (see Painuser) your professional reputation is strongly on the line. Long may it continue.
Word.
What I really like about the NASL is the league format. It's a revelation. Really separates the real pro's (IdrA, Strelok, Ret) from the pretenders (PainUser, sorry but it's true).
So many TSL members... NASL should limit amount of koreans from a team, people will not find it interesting to watch korean players with no name (regardless of their skill). People want to see players like marinekingprime, mvp in the league.. not a bunch of these no namers. NASL failed at notifying the star players of korea about NASL (bomber, marineking, mvp, etc) and should make a bigger effort at contacting these players in the future.
On June 23 2011 13:40 doihy wrote: So many TSL members... NASL should limit amount of koreans from a team, people will not find it interesting to watch korean players with no name (regardless of their skill). People want to see players like marinekingprime, mvp in the league.. not a bunch of these no namers. NASL failed at notifying the star players of korea about NASL (bomber, marineking, mvp, etc) and should make a bigger effort at contacting these players in the future.
MMA is playing in the next one. I think NASL did notify them - if you're Nestea/MVP/MKP though, your focus is on winning the GSL. I think a lot of Korean teams see this as a potential opportunity to get their up-and-coming stars in Code A or B a chance to excel in some sort of league and get some real play time against quality opponents. Same reason why a lot of the lesser-named players are the ones playing in the iCCup Weeklys.
So many TSL members... NASL should limit amount of koreans from a team, people will not find it interesting to watch korean players with no name (regardless of their skill).
Replace "people" with "I". Don't speak for others, I love seeing what no-name players can show they are able to compete with the best. I have loved watching DRG rise to the top (despite his missing Code A ^^)
On June 23 2011 13:40 doihy wrote: So many TSL members... NASL should limit amount of koreans from a team, people will not find it interesting to watch korean players with no name (regardless of their skill). People want to see players like marinekingprime, mvp in the league.. not a bunch of these no namers. NASL failed at notifying the star players of korea about NASL (bomber, marineking, mvp, etc) and should make a bigger effort at contacting these players in the future.
What? The reason TSL is in it is because I contacted them directly. I spoke to oGs, TSL, IM, SlayerS, Startale, and WeMadeFox personally about signing up.
Not sure what else you want me to do, but I did all that I could to try to encourage Korean participation. TSL was very excited
On June 23 2011 13:40 doihy wrote: So many TSL members... NASL should limit amount of koreans from a team, people will not find it interesting to watch korean players with no name (regardless of their skill). People want to see players like marinekingprime, mvp in the league.. not a bunch of these no namers. NASL failed at notifying the star players of korea about NASL (bomber, marineking, mvp, etc) and should make a bigger effort at contacting these players in the future.
You don`t know what teams NASL has contacted. I doubt they would contact specific players for qualifiers.
These "no name" koreans you speak about... is bigger names than a bunch of these NA ladder pros who don`t get anywhere.
On June 23 2011 13:40 doihy wrote: So many TSL members... NASL should limit amount of koreans from a team, people will not find it interesting to watch korean players with no name (regardless of their skill). People want to see players like marinekingprime, mvp in the league.. not a bunch of these no namers. NASL failed at notifying the star players of korea about NASL (bomber, marineking, mvp, etc) and should make a bigger effort at contacting these players in the future.
I don't think it's fair for you to determine what "people" find interesting and not interesting to watch. As a TSL fan I am biased, but I would rather watch "no name Koreans" play than watch something like dde and Axslav duke it out. If they can get through the open bracket by playing their games at 4am and having to deal with the KR ---> NA latency then they deserve to be in the tournament, whether or not people will find it interesting to watch.
I've made a nicely sized list of what all I (and undoubtly some others who have posted before me) believe is wrong with how this tournament is being run. Put in spoiler tags due to the sheer length of this post.
-Scheduling at 1pm in the middle of the week easily turns away competitiors for a QUALIFIER who could've otherwise played. Even if you're targetting serious people, they aren't going to quit their jobs for a 1/128 chance.
-Planning on only putting 4.8% of the entry fees back into the prize pool is ridiculous for an online tournament, no matter how you try to explain it. If this continues and becomes standard, it will definitely hurt esports.
-Comparing entry fees to MLG isn't valid, because you're paying not just for the tournament, but for the weekend long experience as well, and their prize pool is a lot bigger than a $500 travel stipend.
-Anyone involved in NASL shouldn't be competiting in NASL events. That's Avoiding Conflict of Interest 101. A huge no-no for any competition or contest of any kind.
On June 06 2011 11:33 TDN wrote: "registration is simple and easy, and is $10 per player"
I don't know what's wrong with NA tournaments, but every big tournament, players have to pay a certain amount of money to participate. How is this helping esport? This is more like greedy business than an esport competition.
Just look at EU and KR tournaments. Everything is free. GSL doesn't cost a penny to spectate or participate, and they even have free Coke drink and sometimes pizza.
This is just funny. It reminds me of those internet scam where you participate in a survey and at the end they ask for your credit card number.
Believe it or not, coordinating and organizing an event with 1024 people is a lot of hard work, and something someone should be paid to do.
$10 is absolutely nothing, and it's perfectly reasonable to not only want to break even, but want to make a small profit from this event. Investing the 80+plus man hours into making this happen means sacrificing time and other opportunities.
The 'easy' solution is to forgo the tournament, and just invite 8 players from Dreamhack, GSL and MLG. Is that what people would prefer? To pay more (entry fee, travel, accomodation) to qualify for another tounament halfway around the world in order to have a remote chance of participating in this one?
Trust me, the NASL could save a lot of money and grief by not having an open tournament at all. They are doing this for the online community, and the growth of e-sports. People that think otherwise know shit-all about event planning or business.
If they make a maximum of $10,000, they'll be lucky; and to be frank it will be fucking chump change considering the cost of adminstration, staff, equipment and services for the entirety of Season 1.
Um, what? 80+ man hours? Have you ever run a tournament before? For a 1024-person, single-elimination tournament, it shouldn't take more than about 12 man hours, assuming ~1hour a round, ~1hour check-in, and ~1 hour of extra time. To think that $10/person for a 1024-person SE event with a $500 travel stipend (not even cash prize), is just ridiculous. Had this event filled, less than 5% of entry fees would be going back to the prize pool. It doesn't cost $10k to hire admins to run a 1k-man SE tournament. I used to run 256 and 512man tournaments at NESL for free to qualify for IEM. Trying to justify the $10 entry fee for no-shows is also a bit ridiculous. Big whoop, 300 noshows? You press 1 button and the bracket advances the 300 people who did show up, and you run a ro512 as normal. Exagerating the administrative process of a tournament just to attempt to justify such a high entry fee for a poorly prized event is ludicrous.
On June 07 2011 09:49 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: $10 dollars really isn't anything compared to the 75 for MLG to play in an open bracket that you will almost surely lose. Hoping for a chance at top 16, Well here you pay 65 dollars less and try to get a top 8 spot to playing in the NASL season 2. It's a good deal for serious players.
Edit: Well it sucks that the time is in the middle of the day. Guess I won't be playing it in after all. Was really looking forward to trying it out
For that 75$, you'll also playing for a lot more prize money, and you're paying for a -live event-. You're not just paying to play, you're also paying for the whole event experience. There's a lot more costs involved in running a live lan event than there is at running an online one, especially when you are using a free bracket system on a free website that NASL doesn't even have a pay a dime for.
On June 07 2011 11:11 iNcontroL wrote: I think people should have better things to do than worry about a 10$ entry fee for a tourney. If it's too much move along. No amount of complaining or theorizing that it's some kind of get rich scam will have it removed.
Except, this event, had it filled up, would've been a get rich scam. Planning on only putting back 4.88% of the entry fees back into the prize pool of an online event that costs nothing to run and only rewards a $500 prize stipend? Explain how that isn't a scam. It doesn't cost $10k to run an online event on a free bracket site.
On June 07 2011 11:37 iNcontroL wrote: I love when people make the argument "it couldn't possible be because of X because you could just do Y"
Ever think that perhaps your opinion is that on the one hand a refundable deposit is your preferred method? But for us the 10$ deposit makes more sense?
Seriously. It's really simple.. if you cannot afford/on principle don't want to pay 10$ then please move along. But these theories or jabs aren't really needed. Was it ever a mystery that NASL wants to make money? It has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on a league so YES they want to make money and be lucrative. That was never a mystery or lie of sorts. I think 10$ is extremely fair and has good reason BESIDES wanting to make money. If that isn't the case for you please just move along.
On June 07 2011 12:13 Lolsoup wrote: I doubt the 10$ entry fee is to make money, the maintenance required to run a 1,024 player tournament will probably eat a good portion of the money gained, not to mention the fact that it keeps out the non serious participants. Nobody who takes competitive starcraft seriously cares about a 10$ signup.
I don't have a problem with the entry fee but if it cost $10,000 to run a 1024 player online tournament then TL would be deep in debt from all those TL opens. It's clearly to make money, but why should we have a problem with NASL making money and not GSL/MLG/all those other e-sports organizations?
There's a difference between making a profit out of an event and just straight scamming people. <5% of entry fees going back into the prize pool is ridiculous. MLG and GSL also have to worry about paying for the venue and everything else at the event. This is an online tournament that doesn't cost anything to run. If every tournament decided to start charging entry fees and only put back 5% into the prize pool, esports would be fucked in no time.
On June 08 2011 06:03 Holcan wrote: possibly 10,000 for a 1,000$ prize pool? this doesnt make sense.
And no profits shouldnt be made off the open bracket, it should be made off their advertising.
I'm under the impression you do not understand the concept behind a buisness. I would like to hear your logical argument as to why they should not profit (or charge $10 for that matter) off the open bracket. It helps to weed out the players who do not necessarily think they stand a chance. They also need to pay the admins since organizing and running a 1024 person tourny does take people's time and I can assure you, is not enjoyable.
Also $10 isn't like they are asking for a kidney...its $10...if you have a problem paying that, I suggest you get a job or stop paying your monthly subscription on WoW or what ever other game you are paying to play.
Assuming minimum wage and the 12 hours I assumed from above for a 1024 man bracket, it would costs about $140 in administration fees, because it only really takes 2 admins to run an online tournament smoothly. Combined with prizes, that's $640 being taken out of $10240, leaving $9600 left over. That kind of profit off entry fees without a reasonably sized return in prize money. . .
On June 08 2011 06:03 Holcan wrote: possibly 10,000 for a 1,000$ prize pool? this doesnt make sense.
And no profits shouldnt be made off the open bracket, it should be made off their advertising.
I'm under the impression you do not understand the concept behind a buisness. I would like to hear your logical argument as to why they should not profit (or charge $10 for that matter) off the open bracket. It helps to weed out the players who do not necessarily think they stand a chance. They also need to pay the admins since organizing and running a 1024 person tourny does take people's time and I can assure you, is not enjoyable.
Because its an invite only tournament, why do the casual fans have to pay 9 thousand dollars to the NASL just so they can operate an open tournament? I'm under the impression you do not understand the concept behind a successful business, because raping their primary market is not a good way to continue your services, especially when there are plenty of other competitors offering the same thing for free (see, IGN)
its 10$ for a garunteed 1 bo3? thats not a very good deal to me, especially since they openly admitted they dont plan on pouring into resources into fair seedings. If you say its only 10$ 100 times than you just screwed yourself out of 1,000$, so keep throwing your 10$ away.
On June 08 2011 07:04 VPCursed wrote: Your going to charge me, for the opportunity to play in your tournament? Excuse me? Someone needs an ass kicking. Absolutely 0 respect for the e-sports community. This is a giant kick in the face to Competitors. We make your tournament and you want us to pay you. I was really looking forward to this.. and out of principal i may not give in. I just thought that... maybe some of my games.. my contribution to playing in this tournament would be enough.. but apparently you want $10 as well.
EDIT--Biggest copy paste fail ever.
Lmfao wow... I hope this is a troll post...
If not, I can't believe how egotistical you are being. They are giving everyone the privilege of participating in a 16 man tournament against some of the best players in the world for one of the biggest prize pools, and you feel entitled to be a part of it? How about you be thankful they are hosting it... or worst comes to worst just man up and pay the very insignificant amount of money. Can you seriously not spare 10 dollars? Just order water instead of soda the next few times you eat out... my god.
Now that I am done typing all of that out... I'm pretty sure I actually responded to a troll, because that is just laughably ridiculous otherwise.
Considering how much NASL charges viewers already, and the fact that VPCursed is giving them more material to broadcast and use to advertise their organization, he has a perfectly valid point.
Love that the tournament is at 1pm throughout an entire week. You expect people to quit their jobs just to play in a qualifier where they had a (assuming the bracket filled) a 1/128 chance of qualifying for NASL? As if the entry fee alone wasn't trying to filter people out, the timing for matches requires someone to quit their paying job just for a -chance- to get into NASL. I doubt anyone would do that even if they were the best SC2 player ever, to play in a 1024man single elim qualifier. Congratulations on nerfing your own signups by charging for a tournament where even good players can't play due to scheduling.
On June 21 2011 04:22 Sumwar wrote: I'm surprised so many people signed up for a tournament that starts at 1pm on a wednesday. You'd think people would be at work.
The NASL isn't designed for people who have jobs... :p
I signed up because I am off until Thursday and had a solid few days open. So check-in is wednesday at 1pm, and will I be expected to play right then, or can arrangements be made to play a few hours after? Sadly I have work until 4:30PM PST on Thursday.
BTW, your comment about this tournament being designed for those without jobs is completely laughable. Sorry for trying to support myself while attempting to play SC2. I guess it is time to let everyone know I can't work because I want to attempt to become a competitive SC2 player.
Well, usually NASL games are played during hours when people in the USA/Canada would normally be at work. I don't see how it is laughable... it's realistic. This league isn't structured around people who have full time commitments outside of Starcraft. Very few pro gamers are in school full time, or work full time. I'd wager that a large majority of "pro" SC2 players sustain their living through coaching.
Players like Qxc (full time student) and Stalife (has a job + plays professionally) are HUGE exceptions to the rule.
So to answer your question: the matches start at 1pm. Since we're playing both Ro64 and Ro32 on the same day, it is very unlikely that you'll have time to postpone your match by 3.5 hours.
That's a terrible excuse for having it in the middle of the week. How many players actually live completely off their SC2 earnings right now? I doubt more than 10 or so. This is an OPEN QUALIFIER. I wouldn't commit to leaving my job just for a qualifier designed to just take my money and run. Too many random variables (especially for the planned 1024 originally advertised) in a "single-elimination" bracket for any sane person, regardless of skill, to just drop their job and hope they win. It's one thing to expect NASL players to not have a job, it's another to expect 1000+ people who aren't guarenteed anything to drop their job for a qualifier as random as this. Now obviously, if someone does qualify for NASL, they probably would quit their job assuming they can do well enough to win enough money to make it worth it. But prior to that, for -an open single elim qualifier-? Absolutely out of the question not gonna happen.
On June 21 2011 07:11 DharmaTurtle wrote: Stacked seeds in an "open" tourney determined by fuck knows what method, compulsatory "buy in" in an open tournament, mandatory check in that the admins don't check in on...
NASL, why are you being so goddamn difficult to love?
What mandatory checkin that admins don't check in on... tournament doesn't start until Wednesday. Not sure why you showed up to the Ro1,024 when only 160 or so people are signed up. Seems much more logical to show up for the Ro256 :p
Sounds more like someone forgot to do a good job of notifying the players of the time change. Even though the timing was for 1024, check-in is specifically stated as being on monday, regardless of what round it is.
On June 23 2011 03:56 iCCup.Diamond wrote: I have a question, is the Russalo in the open brackets the same Russell that owns NASL? I assume yes because that is his screenname, but isn't that like the biggest conflict of interest ever having the owner of NASL playing in the open?
How is it a conflict of interest? It's not like I would rig the bracket to favor him. He lost in the 2nd round :p He just wanted to play for fun.
What? How is that -not- a conflict of interest?! You have the OWNER OF NASL playing in an NASL EVENT! Having people who work for the organization that is hosting the event, playing in it, is a huge conflict of interest.
On June 23 2011 15:02 Boomy123 wrote: I've made a nicely sized list of what all I (and undoubtly some others who have posted before me) believe is wrong with how this tournament is being run. Put in spoiler tags due to the sheer length of this post.
-Scheduling at 1pm in the middle of the week easily turns away competitiors for a QUALIFIER who could've otherwise played. Even if you're targetting serious people, they aren't going to quit their jobs for a 1/128 chance.
-Planning on only putting 4.8% of the entry fees back into the prize pool is ridiculous for an online tournament, no matter how you try to explain it. If this continues and becomes standard, it will definitely hurt esports.
-Comparing entry fees to MLG isn't valid, because you're paying not just for the tournament, but for the weekend long experience as well, and their prize pool is a lot bigger than a $500 travel stipend.
-Anyone involved in NASL shouldn't be competiting in NASL events. That's Avoiding Conflict of Interest 101. A huge no-no for any competition or contest of any kind.
On June 06 2011 11:33 TDN wrote: "registration is simple and easy, and is $10 per player"
I don't know what's wrong with NA tournaments, but every big tournament, players have to pay a certain amount of money to participate. How is this helping esport? This is more like greedy business than an esport competition.
Just look at EU and KR tournaments. Everything is free. GSL doesn't cost a penny to spectate or participate, and they even have free Coke drink and sometimes pizza.
This is just funny. It reminds me of those internet scam where you participate in a survey and at the end they ask for your credit card number.
Believe it or not, coordinating and organizing an event with 1024 people is a lot of hard work, and something someone should be paid to do.
$10 is absolutely nothing, and it's perfectly reasonable to not only want to break even, but want to make a small profit from this event. Investing the 80+plus man hours into making this happen means sacrificing time and other opportunities.
The 'easy' solution is to forgo the tournament, and just invite 8 players from Dreamhack, GSL and MLG. Is that what people would prefer? To pay more (entry fee, travel, accomodation) to qualify for another tounament halfway around the world in order to have a remote chance of participating in this one?
Trust me, the NASL could save a lot of money and grief by not having an open tournament at all. They are doing this for the online community, and the growth of e-sports. People that think otherwise know shit-all about event planning or business.
If they make a maximum of $10,000, they'll be lucky; and to be frank it will be fucking chump change considering the cost of adminstration, staff, equipment and services for the entirety of Season 1.
Um, what? 80+ man hours? Have you ever run a tournament before? For a 1024-person, single-elimination tournament, it shouldn't take more than about 12 man hours, assuming ~1hour a round, ~1hour check-in, and ~1 hour of extra time. To think that $10/person for a 1024-person SE event with a $500 travel stipend (not even cash prize), is just ridiculous. Had this event filled, less than 5% of entry fees would be going back to the prize pool. It doesn't cost $10k to hire admins to run a 1k-man SE tournament. I used to run 256 and 512man tournaments at NESL for free to qualify for IEM. Trying to justify the $10 entry fee for no-shows is also a bit ridiculous. Big whoop, 300 noshows? You press 1 button and the bracket advances the 300 people who did show up, and you run a ro512 as normal. Exagerating the administrative process of a tournament just to attempt to justify such a high entry fee for a poorly prized event is ludicrous.
On June 07 2011 09:49 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: $10 dollars really isn't anything compared to the 75 for MLG to play in an open bracket that you will almost surely lose. Hoping for a chance at top 16, Well here you pay 65 dollars less and try to get a top 8 spot to playing in the NASL season 2. It's a good deal for serious players.
Edit: Well it sucks that the time is in the middle of the day. Guess I won't be playing it in after all. Was really looking forward to trying it out
For that 75$, you'll also playing for a lot more prize money, and you're paying for a -live event-. You're not just paying to play, you're also paying for the whole event experience. There's a lot more costs involved in running a live lan event than there is at running an online one, especially when you are using a free bracket system on a free website that NASL doesn't even have a pay a dime for.
On June 07 2011 11:11 iNcontroL wrote: I think people should have better things to do than worry about a 10$ entry fee for a tourney. If it's too much move along. No amount of complaining or theorizing that it's some kind of get rich scam will have it removed.
Except, this event, had it filled up, would've been a get rich scam. Planning on only putting back 4.88% of the entry fees back into the prize pool of an online event that costs nothing to run and only rewards a $500 prize stipend? Explain how that isn't a scam. It doesn't cost $10k to run an online event on a free bracket site.
On June 07 2011 11:37 iNcontroL wrote: I love when people make the argument "it couldn't possible be because of X because you could just do Y"
Ever think that perhaps your opinion is that on the one hand a refundable deposit is your preferred method? But for us the 10$ deposit makes more sense?
Seriously. It's really simple.. if you cannot afford/on principle don't want to pay 10$ then please move along. But these theories or jabs aren't really needed. Was it ever a mystery that NASL wants to make money? It has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on a league so YES they want to make money and be lucrative. That was never a mystery or lie of sorts. I think 10$ is extremely fair and has good reason BESIDES wanting to make money. If that isn't the case for you please just move along.
On June 07 2011 12:13 Lolsoup wrote: I doubt the 10$ entry fee is to make money, the maintenance required to run a 1,024 player tournament will probably eat a good portion of the money gained, not to mention the fact that it keeps out the non serious participants. Nobody who takes competitive starcraft seriously cares about a 10$ signup.
I don't have a problem with the entry fee but if it cost $10,000 to run a 1024 player online tournament then TL would be deep in debt from all those TL opens. It's clearly to make money, but why should we have a problem with NASL making money and not GSL/MLG/all those other e-sports organizations?
There's a difference between making a profit out of an event and just straight scamming people. <5% of entry fees going back into the prize pool is ridiculous. MLG and GSL also have to worry about paying for the venue and everything else at the event. This is an online tournament that doesn't cost anything to run. If every tournament decided to start charging entry fees and only put back 5% into the prize pool, esports would be fucked in no time.
On June 08 2011 06:03 Holcan wrote: possibly 10,000 for a 1,000$ prize pool? this doesnt make sense.
And no profits shouldnt be made off the open bracket, it should be made off their advertising.
I'm under the impression you do not understand the concept behind a buisness. I would like to hear your logical argument as to why they should not profit (or charge $10 for that matter) off the open bracket. It helps to weed out the players who do not necessarily think they stand a chance. They also need to pay the admins since organizing and running a 1024 person tourny does take people's time and I can assure you, is not enjoyable.
Also $10 isn't like they are asking for a kidney...its $10...if you have a problem paying that, I suggest you get a job or stop paying your monthly subscription on WoW or what ever other game you are paying to play.
Assuming minimum wage and the 12 hours I assumed from above for a 1024 man bracket, it would costs about $140 in administration fees, because it only really takes 2 admins to run an online tournament smoothly. Combined with prizes, that's $640 being taken out of $10240, leaving $9600 left over. That kind of profit off entry fees without a reasonably sized return in prize money. . .
On June 08 2011 06:03 Holcan wrote: possibly 10,000 for a 1,000$ prize pool? this doesnt make sense.
And no profits shouldnt be made off the open bracket, it should be made off their advertising.
I'm under the impression you do not understand the concept behind a buisness. I would like to hear your logical argument as to why they should not profit (or charge $10 for that matter) off the open bracket. It helps to weed out the players who do not necessarily think they stand a chance. They also need to pay the admins since organizing and running a 1024 person tourny does take people's time and I can assure you, is not enjoyable.
Because its an invite only tournament, why do the casual fans have to pay 9 thousand dollars to the NASL just so they can operate an open tournament? I'm under the impression you do not understand the concept behind a successful business, because raping their primary market is not a good way to continue your services, especially when there are plenty of other competitors offering the same thing for free (see, IGN)
its 10$ for a garunteed 1 bo3? thats not a very good deal to me, especially since they openly admitted they dont plan on pouring into resources into fair seedings. If you say its only 10$ 100 times than you just screwed yourself out of 1,000$, so keep throwing your 10$ away.
On June 08 2011 07:04 VPCursed wrote: Your going to charge me, for the opportunity to play in your tournament? Excuse me? Someone needs an ass kicking. Absolutely 0 respect for the e-sports community. This is a giant kick in the face to Competitors. We make your tournament and you want us to pay you. I was really looking forward to this.. and out of principal i may not give in. I just thought that... maybe some of my games.. my contribution to playing in this tournament would be enough.. but apparently you want $10 as well.
EDIT--Biggest copy paste fail ever.
Lmfao wow... I hope this is a troll post...
If not, I can't believe how egotistical you are being. They are giving everyone the privilege of participating in a 16 man tournament against some of the best players in the world for one of the biggest prize pools, and you feel entitled to be a part of it? How about you be thankful they are hosting it... or worst comes to worst just man up and pay the very insignificant amount of money. Can you seriously not spare 10 dollars? Just order water instead of soda the next few times you eat out... my god.
Now that I am done typing all of that out... I'm pretty sure I actually responded to a troll, because that is just laughably ridiculous otherwise.
Considering how much NASL charges viewers already, and the fact that VPCursed is giving them more material to broadcast and use to advertise their organization, he has a perfectly valid point.
Love that the tournament is at 1pm throughout an entire week. You expect people to quit their jobs just to play in a qualifier where they had a (assuming the bracket filled) a 1/128 chance of qualifying for NASL? As if the entry fee alone wasn't trying to filter people out, the timing for matches requires someone to quit their paying job just for a -chance- to get into NASL. I doubt anyone would do that even if they were the best SC2 player ever, to play in a 1024man single elim qualifier. Congratulations on nerfing your own signups by charging for a tournament where even good players can't play due to scheduling.
On June 21 2011 04:22 Sumwar wrote: I'm surprised so many people signed up for a tournament that starts at 1pm on a wednesday. You'd think people would be at work.
The NASL isn't designed for people who have jobs... :p
I signed up because I am off until Thursday and had a solid few days open. So check-in is wednesday at 1pm, and will I be expected to play right then, or can arrangements be made to play a few hours after? Sadly I have work until 4:30PM PST on Thursday.
BTW, your comment about this tournament being designed for those without jobs is completely laughable. Sorry for trying to support myself while attempting to play SC2. I guess it is time to let everyone know I can't work because I want to attempt to become a competitive SC2 player.
Well, usually NASL games are played during hours when people in the USA/Canada would normally be at work. I don't see how it is laughable... it's realistic. This league isn't structured around people who have full time commitments outside of Starcraft. Very few pro gamers are in school full time, or work full time. I'd wager that a large majority of "pro" SC2 players sustain their living through coaching.
Players like Qxc (full time student) and Stalife (has a job + plays professionally) are HUGE exceptions to the rule.
So to answer your question: the matches start at 1pm. Since we're playing both Ro64 and Ro32 on the same day, it is very unlikely that you'll have time to postpone your match by 3.5 hours.
That's a terrible excuse for having it in the middle of the week. How many players actually live completely off their SC2 earnings right now? I doubt more than 10 or so. This is an OPEN QUALIFIER. I wouldn't commit to leaving my job just for a qualifier designed to just take my money and run. Too many random variables (especially for the planned 1024 originally advertised) in a "single-elimination" bracket for any sane person, regardless of skill, to just drop their job and hope they win. It's one thing to expect NASL players to not have a job, it's another to expect 1000+ people who aren't guarenteed anything to drop their job for a qualifier as random as this. Now obviously, if someone does qualify for NASL, they probably would quit their job assuming they can do well enough to win enough money to make it worth it. But prior to that, for -an open single elim qualifier-? Absolutely out of the question not gonna happen.
On June 21 2011 07:11 DharmaTurtle wrote: Stacked seeds in an "open" tourney determined by fuck knows what method, compulsatory "buy in" in an open tournament, mandatory check in that the admins don't check in on...
NASL, why are you being so goddamn difficult to love?
What mandatory checkin that admins don't check in on... tournament doesn't start until Wednesday. Not sure why you showed up to the Ro1,024 when only 160 or so people are signed up. Seems much more logical to show up for the Ro256 :p
Sounds more like someone forgot to do a good job of notifying the players of the time change. Even though the timing was for 1024, check-in is specifically stated as being on monday, regardless of what round it is.
On June 23 2011 03:56 iCCup.Diamond wrote: I have a question, is the Russalo in the open brackets the same Russell that owns NASL? I assume yes because that is his screenname, but isn't that like the biggest conflict of interest ever having the owner of NASL playing in the open?
How is it a conflict of interest? It's not like I would rig the bracket to favor him. He lost in the 2nd round :p He just wanted to play for fun.
What? How is that -not- a conflict of interest?! You have the OWNER OF NASL playing in an NASL EVENT! Having people who work for the organization that is hosting the event, playing in it, is a huge conflict of interest.
sorry have not been following NASL much, but where does the 4.8% figure come from? Edit: Nvm, turns out you are just spreading lies.
@boomy123 You realize that the winner of this tournament gains a spot in the top 16 bracket for NASL S1, which they receive not only $500 travel stipend but also $500 minimum for placing 9-16th? And that the prize pool is $100,000? And that they get a spot in season two that is also a $100,000 prize pool? Even if 1000 people had signed up, it would cover only a 10th of the prize pool of the NASL and the prize pool is actually smaller than the amount of money for the salaries of the employees. To try and imply that the travel stipend is the only thing the winners get out of the open is just silly.
On June 23 2011 15:02 Boomy123 wrote: I've made a nicely sized list of what all I (and undoubtly some others who have posted before me) believe is wrong with how this tournament is being run. Put in spoiler tags due to the sheer length of this post.
-Scheduling at 1pm in the middle of the week easily turns away competitiors for a QUALIFIER who could've otherwise played. Even if you're targetting serious people, they aren't going to quit their jobs for a 1/128 chance.
-Planning on only putting 4.8% of the entry fees back into the prize pool is ridiculous for an online tournament, no matter how you try to explain it. If this continues and becomes standard, it will definitely hurt esports.
-Comparing entry fees to MLG isn't valid, because you're paying not just for the tournament, but for the weekend long experience as well, and their prize pool is a lot bigger than a $500 travel stipend.
-Anyone involved in NASL shouldn't be competiting in NASL events. That's Avoiding Conflict of Interest 101. A huge no-no for any competition or contest of any kind.
On June 06 2011 11:33 TDN wrote: "registration is simple and easy, and is $10 per player"
I don't know what's wrong with NA tournaments, but every big tournament, players have to pay a certain amount of money to participate. How is this helping esport? This is more like greedy business than an esport competition.
Just look at EU and KR tournaments. Everything is free. GSL doesn't cost a penny to spectate or participate, and they even have free Coke drink and sometimes pizza.
This is just funny. It reminds me of those internet scam where you participate in a survey and at the end they ask for your credit card number.
Believe it or not, coordinating and organizing an event with 1024 people is a lot of hard work, and something someone should be paid to do.
$10 is absolutely nothing, and it's perfectly reasonable to not only want to break even, but want to make a small profit from this event. Investing the 80+plus man hours into making this happen means sacrificing time and other opportunities.
The 'easy' solution is to forgo the tournament, and just invite 8 players from Dreamhack, GSL and MLG. Is that what people would prefer? To pay more (entry fee, travel, accomodation) to qualify for another tounament halfway around the world in order to have a remote chance of participating in this one?
Trust me, the NASL could save a lot of money and grief by not having an open tournament at all. They are doing this for the online community, and the growth of e-sports. People that think otherwise know shit-all about event planning or business.
If they make a maximum of $10,000, they'll be lucky; and to be frank it will be fucking chump change considering the cost of adminstration, staff, equipment and services for the entirety of Season 1.
Um, what? 80+ man hours? Have you ever run a tournament before? For a 1024-person, single-elimination tournament, it shouldn't take more than about 12 man hours, assuming ~1hour a round, ~1hour check-in, and ~1 hour of extra time. To think that $10/person for a 1024-person SE event with a $500 travel stipend (not even cash prize), is just ridiculous. Had this event filled, less than 5% of entry fees would be going back to the prize pool. It doesn't cost $10k to hire admins to run a 1k-man SE tournament. I used to run 256 and 512man tournaments at NESL for free to qualify for IEM. Trying to justify the $10 entry fee for no-shows is also a bit ridiculous. Big whoop, 300 noshows? You press 1 button and the bracket advances the 300 people who did show up, and you run a ro512 as normal. Exagerating the administrative process of a tournament just to attempt to justify such a high entry fee for a poorly prized event is ludicrous.
On June 07 2011 09:49 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: $10 dollars really isn't anything compared to the 75 for MLG to play in an open bracket that you will almost surely lose. Hoping for a chance at top 16, Well here you pay 65 dollars less and try to get a top 8 spot to playing in the NASL season 2. It's a good deal for serious players.
Edit: Well it sucks that the time is in the middle of the day. Guess I won't be playing it in after all. Was really looking forward to trying it out
For that 75$, you'll also playing for a lot more prize money, and you're paying for a -live event-. You're not just paying to play, you're also paying for the whole event experience. There's a lot more costs involved in running a live lan event than there is at running an online one, especially when you are using a free bracket system on a free website that NASL doesn't even have a pay a dime for.
On June 07 2011 11:11 iNcontroL wrote: I think people should have better things to do than worry about a 10$ entry fee for a tourney. If it's too much move along. No amount of complaining or theorizing that it's some kind of get rich scam will have it removed.
Except, this event, had it filled up, would've been a get rich scam. Planning on only putting back 4.88% of the entry fees back into the prize pool of an online event that costs nothing to run and only rewards a $500 prize stipend? Explain how that isn't a scam. It doesn't cost $10k to run an online event on a free bracket site.
On June 07 2011 11:37 iNcontroL wrote: I love when people make the argument "it couldn't possible be because of X because you could just do Y"
Ever think that perhaps your opinion is that on the one hand a refundable deposit is your preferred method? But for us the 10$ deposit makes more sense?
Seriously. It's really simple.. if you cannot afford/on principle don't want to pay 10$ then please move along. But these theories or jabs aren't really needed. Was it ever a mystery that NASL wants to make money? It has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on a league so YES they want to make money and be lucrative. That was never a mystery or lie of sorts. I think 10$ is extremely fair and has good reason BESIDES wanting to make money. If that isn't the case for you please just move along.
On June 07 2011 12:13 Lolsoup wrote: I doubt the 10$ entry fee is to make money, the maintenance required to run a 1,024 player tournament will probably eat a good portion of the money gained, not to mention the fact that it keeps out the non serious participants. Nobody who takes competitive starcraft seriously cares about a 10$ signup.
I don't have a problem with the entry fee but if it cost $10,000 to run a 1024 player online tournament then TL would be deep in debt from all those TL opens. It's clearly to make money, but why should we have a problem with NASL making money and not GSL/MLG/all those other e-sports organizations?
There's a difference between making a profit out of an event and just straight scamming people. <5% of entry fees going back into the prize pool is ridiculous. MLG and GSL also have to worry about paying for the venue and everything else at the event. This is an online tournament that doesn't cost anything to run. If every tournament decided to start charging entry fees and only put back 5% into the prize pool, esports would be fucked in no time.
On June 08 2011 06:03 Holcan wrote: possibly 10,000 for a 1,000$ prize pool? this doesnt make sense.
And no profits shouldnt be made off the open bracket, it should be made off their advertising.
I'm under the impression you do not understand the concept behind a buisness. I would like to hear your logical argument as to why they should not profit (or charge $10 for that matter) off the open bracket. It helps to weed out the players who do not necessarily think they stand a chance. They also need to pay the admins since organizing and running a 1024 person tourny does take people's time and I can assure you, is not enjoyable.
Also $10 isn't like they are asking for a kidney...its $10...if you have a problem paying that, I suggest you get a job or stop paying your monthly subscription on WoW or what ever other game you are paying to play.
Assuming minimum wage and the 12 hours I assumed from above for a 1024 man bracket, it would costs about $140 in administration fees, because it only really takes 2 admins to run an online tournament smoothly. Combined with prizes, that's $640 being taken out of $10240, leaving $9600 left over. That kind of profit off entry fees without a reasonably sized return in prize money. . .
On June 08 2011 06:03 Holcan wrote: possibly 10,000 for a 1,000$ prize pool? this doesnt make sense.
And no profits shouldnt be made off the open bracket, it should be made off their advertising.
I'm under the impression you do not understand the concept behind a buisness. I would like to hear your logical argument as to why they should not profit (or charge $10 for that matter) off the open bracket. It helps to weed out the players who do not necessarily think they stand a chance. They also need to pay the admins since organizing and running a 1024 person tourny does take people's time and I can assure you, is not enjoyable.
Because its an invite only tournament, why do the casual fans have to pay 9 thousand dollars to the NASL just so they can operate an open tournament? I'm under the impression you do not understand the concept behind a successful business, because raping their primary market is not a good way to continue your services, especially when there are plenty of other competitors offering the same thing for free (see, IGN)
its 10$ for a garunteed 1 bo3? thats not a very good deal to me, especially since they openly admitted they dont plan on pouring into resources into fair seedings. If you say its only 10$ 100 times than you just screwed yourself out of 1,000$, so keep throwing your 10$ away.
On June 08 2011 07:04 VPCursed wrote: Your going to charge me, for the opportunity to play in your tournament? Excuse me? Someone needs an ass kicking. Absolutely 0 respect for the e-sports community. This is a giant kick in the face to Competitors. We make your tournament and you want us to pay you. I was really looking forward to this.. and out of principal i may not give in. I just thought that... maybe some of my games.. my contribution to playing in this tournament would be enough.. but apparently you want $10 as well.
EDIT--Biggest copy paste fail ever.
Lmfao wow... I hope this is a troll post...
If not, I can't believe how egotistical you are being. They are giving everyone the privilege of participating in a 16 man tournament against some of the best players in the world for one of the biggest prize pools, and you feel entitled to be a part of it? How about you be thankful they are hosting it... or worst comes to worst just man up and pay the very insignificant amount of money. Can you seriously not spare 10 dollars? Just order water instead of soda the next few times you eat out... my god.
Now that I am done typing all of that out... I'm pretty sure I actually responded to a troll, because that is just laughably ridiculous otherwise.
Considering how much NASL charges viewers already, and the fact that VPCursed is giving them more material to broadcast and use to advertise their organization, he has a perfectly valid point.
Love that the tournament is at 1pm throughout an entire week. You expect people to quit their jobs just to play in a qualifier where they had a (assuming the bracket filled) a 1/128 chance of qualifying for NASL? As if the entry fee alone wasn't trying to filter people out, the timing for matches requires someone to quit their paying job just for a -chance- to get into NASL. I doubt anyone would do that even if they were the best SC2 player ever, to play in a 1024man single elim qualifier. Congratulations on nerfing your own signups by charging for a tournament where even good players can't play due to scheduling.
On June 21 2011 04:22 Sumwar wrote: I'm surprised so many people signed up for a tournament that starts at 1pm on a wednesday. You'd think people would be at work.
The NASL isn't designed for people who have jobs... :p
I signed up because I am off until Thursday and had a solid few days open. So check-in is wednesday at 1pm, and will I be expected to play right then, or can arrangements be made to play a few hours after? Sadly I have work until 4:30PM PST on Thursday.
BTW, your comment about this tournament being designed for those without jobs is completely laughable. Sorry for trying to support myself while attempting to play SC2. I guess it is time to let everyone know I can't work because I want to attempt to become a competitive SC2 player.
Well, usually NASL games are played during hours when people in the USA/Canada would normally be at work. I don't see how it is laughable... it's realistic. This league isn't structured around people who have full time commitments outside of Starcraft. Very few pro gamers are in school full time, or work full time. I'd wager that a large majority of "pro" SC2 players sustain their living through coaching.
Players like Qxc (full time student) and Stalife (has a job + plays professionally) are HUGE exceptions to the rule.
So to answer your question: the matches start at 1pm. Since we're playing both Ro64 and Ro32 on the same day, it is very unlikely that you'll have time to postpone your match by 3.5 hours.
That's a terrible excuse for having it in the middle of the week. How many players actually live completely off their SC2 earnings right now? I doubt more than 10 or so. This is an OPEN QUALIFIER. I wouldn't commit to leaving my job just for a qualifier designed to just take my money and run. Too many random variables (especially for the planned 1024 originally advertised) in a "single-elimination" bracket for any sane person, regardless of skill, to just drop their job and hope they win. It's one thing to expect NASL players to not have a job, it's another to expect 1000+ people who aren't guarenteed anything to drop their job for a qualifier as random as this. Now obviously, if someone does qualify for NASL, they probably would quit their job assuming they can do well enough to win enough money to make it worth it. But prior to that, for -an open single elim qualifier-? Absolutely out of the question not gonna happen.
On June 21 2011 07:11 DharmaTurtle wrote: Stacked seeds in an "open" tourney determined by fuck knows what method, compulsatory "buy in" in an open tournament, mandatory check in that the admins don't check in on...
NASL, why are you being so goddamn difficult to love?
What mandatory checkin that admins don't check in on... tournament doesn't start until Wednesday. Not sure why you showed up to the Ro1,024 when only 160 or so people are signed up. Seems much more logical to show up for the Ro256 :p
Sounds more like someone forgot to do a good job of notifying the players of the time change. Even though the timing was for 1024, check-in is specifically stated as being on monday, regardless of what round it is.
On June 23 2011 03:56 iCCup.Diamond wrote: I have a question, is the Russalo in the open brackets the same Russell that owns NASL? I assume yes because that is his screenname, but isn't that like the biggest conflict of interest ever having the owner of NASL playing in the open?
How is it a conflict of interest? It's not like I would rig the bracket to favor him. He lost in the 2nd round :p He just wanted to play for fun.
What? How is that -not- a conflict of interest?! You have the OWNER OF NASL playing in an NASL EVENT! Having people who work for the organization that is hosting the event, playing in it, is a huge conflict of interest.
sorry have not been following NASL much, but where does the 4.8% figure come from?
Had the tournament filled with all 1024 players, each paying $10 each, that results in $10240 in entry fees. The $500 travel stipend for first as a prize pool is only 4.8% of the $10240 (potentially) gained in entry fees. Now, since obviously the tournament didn't fill up, $500 of $1880 is still only 26.6% of the entry fees being replaced back into the prize pool, which is an honestly still pitiful ratio.
On June 23 2011 15:02 Boomy123 wrote: I've made a nicely sized list of what all I (and undoubtly some others who have posted before me) believe is wrong with how this tournament is being run. Put in spoiler tags due to the sheer length of this post.
-Scheduling at 1pm in the middle of the week easily turns away competitiors for a QUALIFIER who could've otherwise played. Even if you're targetting serious people, they aren't going to quit their jobs for a 1/128 chance.
-Planning on only putting 4.8% of the entry fees back into the prize pool is ridiculous for an online tournament, no matter how you try to explain it. If this continues and becomes standard, it will definitely hurt esports.
-Comparing entry fees to MLG isn't valid, because you're paying not just for the tournament, but for the weekend long experience as well, and their prize pool is a lot bigger than a $500 travel stipend.
-Anyone involved in NASL shouldn't be competiting in NASL events. That's Avoiding Conflict of Interest 101. A huge no-no for any competition or contest of any kind.
On June 06 2011 11:33 TDN wrote: "registration is simple and easy, and is $10 per player"
I don't know what's wrong with NA tournaments, but every big tournament, players have to pay a certain amount of money to participate. How is this helping esport? This is more like greedy business than an esport competition.
Just look at EU and KR tournaments. Everything is free. GSL doesn't cost a penny to spectate or participate, and they even have free Coke drink and sometimes pizza.
This is just funny. It reminds me of those internet scam where you participate in a survey and at the end they ask for your credit card number.
Believe it or not, coordinating and organizing an event with 1024 people is a lot of hard work, and something someone should be paid to do.
$10 is absolutely nothing, and it's perfectly reasonable to not only want to break even, but want to make a small profit from this event. Investing the 80+plus man hours into making this happen means sacrificing time and other opportunities.
The 'easy' solution is to forgo the tournament, and just invite 8 players from Dreamhack, GSL and MLG. Is that what people would prefer? To pay more (entry fee, travel, accomodation) to qualify for another tounament halfway around the world in order to have a remote chance of participating in this one?
Trust me, the NASL could save a lot of money and grief by not having an open tournament at all. They are doing this for the online community, and the growth of e-sports. People that think otherwise know shit-all about event planning or business.
If they make a maximum of $10,000, they'll be lucky; and to be frank it will be fucking chump change considering the cost of adminstration, staff, equipment and services for the entirety of Season 1.
Um, what? 80+ man hours? Have you ever run a tournament before? For a 1024-person, single-elimination tournament, it shouldn't take more than about 12 man hours, assuming ~1hour a round, ~1hour check-in, and ~1 hour of extra time. To think that $10/person for a 1024-person SE event with a $500 travel stipend (not even cash prize), is just ridiculous. Had this event filled, less than 5% of entry fees would be going back to the prize pool. It doesn't cost $10k to hire admins to run a 1k-man SE tournament. I used to run 256 and 512man tournaments at NESL for free to qualify for IEM. Trying to justify the $10 entry fee for no-shows is also a bit ridiculous. Big whoop, 300 noshows? You press 1 button and the bracket advances the 300 people who did show up, and you run a ro512 as normal. Exagerating the administrative process of a tournament just to attempt to justify such a high entry fee for a poorly prized event is ludicrous.
On June 07 2011 09:49 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: $10 dollars really isn't anything compared to the 75 for MLG to play in an open bracket that you will almost surely lose. Hoping for a chance at top 16, Well here you pay 65 dollars less and try to get a top 8 spot to playing in the NASL season 2. It's a good deal for serious players.
Edit: Well it sucks that the time is in the middle of the day. Guess I won't be playing it in after all. Was really looking forward to trying it out
For that 75$, you'll also playing for a lot more prize money, and you're paying for a -live event-. You're not just paying to play, you're also paying for the whole event experience. There's a lot more costs involved in running a live lan event than there is at running an online one, especially when you are using a free bracket system on a free website that NASL doesn't even have a pay a dime for.
On June 07 2011 11:11 iNcontroL wrote: I think people should have better things to do than worry about a 10$ entry fee for a tourney. If it's too much move along. No amount of complaining or theorizing that it's some kind of get rich scam will have it removed.
Except, this event, had it filled up, would've been a get rich scam. Planning on only putting back 4.88% of the entry fees back into the prize pool of an online event that costs nothing to run and only rewards a $500 prize stipend? Explain how that isn't a scam. It doesn't cost $10k to run an online event on a free bracket site.
On June 07 2011 11:37 iNcontroL wrote: I love when people make the argument "it couldn't possible be because of X because you could just do Y"
Ever think that perhaps your opinion is that on the one hand a refundable deposit is your preferred method? But for us the 10$ deposit makes more sense?
Seriously. It's really simple.. if you cannot afford/on principle don't want to pay 10$ then please move along. But these theories or jabs aren't really needed. Was it ever a mystery that NASL wants to make money? It has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on a league so YES they want to make money and be lucrative. That was never a mystery or lie of sorts. I think 10$ is extremely fair and has good reason BESIDES wanting to make money. If that isn't the case for you please just move along.
On June 07 2011 12:13 Lolsoup wrote: I doubt the 10$ entry fee is to make money, the maintenance required to run a 1,024 player tournament will probably eat a good portion of the money gained, not to mention the fact that it keeps out the non serious participants. Nobody who takes competitive starcraft seriously cares about a 10$ signup.
I don't have a problem with the entry fee but if it cost $10,000 to run a 1024 player online tournament then TL would be deep in debt from all those TL opens. It's clearly to make money, but why should we have a problem with NASL making money and not GSL/MLG/all those other e-sports organizations?
There's a difference between making a profit out of an event and just straight scamming people. <5% of entry fees going back into the prize pool is ridiculous. MLG and GSL also have to worry about paying for the venue and everything else at the event. This is an online tournament that doesn't cost anything to run. If every tournament decided to start charging entry fees and only put back 5% into the prize pool, esports would be fucked in no time.
On June 08 2011 06:03 Holcan wrote: possibly 10,000 for a 1,000$ prize pool? this doesnt make sense.
And no profits shouldnt be made off the open bracket, it should be made off their advertising.
I'm under the impression you do not understand the concept behind a buisness. I would like to hear your logical argument as to why they should not profit (or charge $10 for that matter) off the open bracket. It helps to weed out the players who do not necessarily think they stand a chance. They also need to pay the admins since organizing and running a 1024 person tourny does take people's time and I can assure you, is not enjoyable.
Also $10 isn't like they are asking for a kidney...its $10...if you have a problem paying that, I suggest you get a job or stop paying your monthly subscription on WoW or what ever other game you are paying to play.
Assuming minimum wage and the 12 hours I assumed from above for a 1024 man bracket, it would costs about $140 in administration fees, because it only really takes 2 admins to run an online tournament smoothly. Combined with prizes, that's $640 being taken out of $10240, leaving $9600 left over. That kind of profit off entry fees without a reasonably sized return in prize money. . .
On June 08 2011 06:03 Holcan wrote: possibly 10,000 for a 1,000$ prize pool? this doesnt make sense.
And no profits shouldnt be made off the open bracket, it should be made off their advertising.
I'm under the impression you do not understand the concept behind a buisness. I would like to hear your logical argument as to why they should not profit (or charge $10 for that matter) off the open bracket. It helps to weed out the players who do not necessarily think they stand a chance. They also need to pay the admins since organizing and running a 1024 person tourny does take people's time and I can assure you, is not enjoyable.
Because its an invite only tournament, why do the casual fans have to pay 9 thousand dollars to the NASL just so they can operate an open tournament? I'm under the impression you do not understand the concept behind a successful business, because raping their primary market is not a good way to continue your services, especially when there are plenty of other competitors offering the same thing for free (see, IGN)
its 10$ for a garunteed 1 bo3? thats not a very good deal to me, especially since they openly admitted they dont plan on pouring into resources into fair seedings. If you say its only 10$ 100 times than you just screwed yourself out of 1,000$, so keep throwing your 10$ away.
On June 08 2011 07:04 VPCursed wrote: Your going to charge me, for the opportunity to play in your tournament? Excuse me? Someone needs an ass kicking. Absolutely 0 respect for the e-sports community. This is a giant kick in the face to Competitors. We make your tournament and you want us to pay you. I was really looking forward to this.. and out of principal i may not give in. I just thought that... maybe some of my games.. my contribution to playing in this tournament would be enough.. but apparently you want $10 as well.
EDIT--Biggest copy paste fail ever.
Lmfao wow... I hope this is a troll post...
If not, I can't believe how egotistical you are being. They are giving everyone the privilege of participating in a 16 man tournament against some of the best players in the world for one of the biggest prize pools, and you feel entitled to be a part of it? How about you be thankful they are hosting it... or worst comes to worst just man up and pay the very insignificant amount of money. Can you seriously not spare 10 dollars? Just order water instead of soda the next few times you eat out... my god.
Now that I am done typing all of that out... I'm pretty sure I actually responded to a troll, because that is just laughably ridiculous otherwise.
Considering how much NASL charges viewers already, and the fact that VPCursed is giving them more material to broadcast and use to advertise their organization, he has a perfectly valid point.
Love that the tournament is at 1pm throughout an entire week. You expect people to quit their jobs just to play in a qualifier where they had a (assuming the bracket filled) a 1/128 chance of qualifying for NASL? As if the entry fee alone wasn't trying to filter people out, the timing for matches requires someone to quit their paying job just for a -chance- to get into NASL. I doubt anyone would do that even if they were the best SC2 player ever, to play in a 1024man single elim qualifier. Congratulations on nerfing your own signups by charging for a tournament where even good players can't play due to scheduling.
On June 21 2011 04:22 Sumwar wrote: I'm surprised so many people signed up for a tournament that starts at 1pm on a wednesday. You'd think people would be at work.
The NASL isn't designed for people who have jobs... :p
I signed up because I am off until Thursday and had a solid few days open. So check-in is wednesday at 1pm, and will I be expected to play right then, or can arrangements be made to play a few hours after? Sadly I have work until 4:30PM PST on Thursday.
BTW, your comment about this tournament being designed for those without jobs is completely laughable. Sorry for trying to support myself while attempting to play SC2. I guess it is time to let everyone know I can't work because I want to attempt to become a competitive SC2 player.
Well, usually NASL games are played during hours when people in the USA/Canada would normally be at work. I don't see how it is laughable... it's realistic. This league isn't structured around people who have full time commitments outside of Starcraft. Very few pro gamers are in school full time, or work full time. I'd wager that a large majority of "pro" SC2 players sustain their living through coaching.
Players like Qxc (full time student) and Stalife (has a job + plays professionally) are HUGE exceptions to the rule.
So to answer your question: the matches start at 1pm. Since we're playing both Ro64 and Ro32 on the same day, it is very unlikely that you'll have time to postpone your match by 3.5 hours.
That's a terrible excuse for having it in the middle of the week. How many players actually live completely off their SC2 earnings right now? I doubt more than 10 or so. This is an OPEN QUALIFIER. I wouldn't commit to leaving my job just for a qualifier designed to just take my money and run. Too many random variables (especially for the planned 1024 originally advertised) in a "single-elimination" bracket for any sane person, regardless of skill, to just drop their job and hope they win. It's one thing to expect NASL players to not have a job, it's another to expect 1000+ people who aren't guarenteed anything to drop their job for a qualifier as random as this. Now obviously, if someone does qualify for NASL, they probably would quit their job assuming they can do well enough to win enough money to make it worth it. But prior to that, for -an open single elim qualifier-? Absolutely out of the question not gonna happen.
On June 21 2011 07:11 DharmaTurtle wrote: Stacked seeds in an "open" tourney determined by fuck knows what method, compulsatory "buy in" in an open tournament, mandatory check in that the admins don't check in on...
NASL, why are you being so goddamn difficult to love?
What mandatory checkin that admins don't check in on... tournament doesn't start until Wednesday. Not sure why you showed up to the Ro1,024 when only 160 or so people are signed up. Seems much more logical to show up for the Ro256 :p
Sounds more like someone forgot to do a good job of notifying the players of the time change. Even though the timing was for 1024, check-in is specifically stated as being on monday, regardless of what round it is.
On June 23 2011 03:56 iCCup.Diamond wrote: I have a question, is the Russalo in the open brackets the same Russell that owns NASL? I assume yes because that is his screenname, but isn't that like the biggest conflict of interest ever having the owner of NASL playing in the open?
How is it a conflict of interest? It's not like I would rig the bracket to favor him. He lost in the 2nd round :p He just wanted to play for fun.
What? How is that -not- a conflict of interest?! You have the OWNER OF NASL playing in an NASL EVENT! Having people who work for the organization that is hosting the event, playing in it, is a huge conflict of interest.
sorry have not been following NASL much, but where does the 4.8% figure come from?
Had the tournament filled with all 1024 players, each paying $10 each, that results in $10240 in entry fees. The $500 travel stipend for first as a prize pool is only 4.8% of the $10240 (potentially) gained in entry fees. Now, since obviously the tournament didn't fill up, $500 of $1880 is still only 26.6% of the entry fees being replaced back into the prize pool, which is an honestly still pitiful ratio.
the total prize pool for the tournament is $100,000, please stop trolling and spreading lies to the community.
EPT
