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-- updated 7:55 KST |
On June 06 2011 23:28 habeck wrote:
I watched the replay of first Game Idra Vs MMA, and i can't understand, he lost only few drones in his main, he saw that gold base was still building, but he left, wtf was he thinking? He saw all the things but he still left.
Yeah this is my reaction too. What was he thinking?
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On June 06 2011 23:29 KaiserJohan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 23:28 habeck wrote:
I watched the replay of first Game Idra Vs MMA, and i can't understand, he lost only few drones in his main, he saw that gold base was still building, but he left, wtf was he thinking? He saw all the things but he still left. Yeah this is my reaction too. What was he thinking?
in his mind he saw 30 marines reinforcing from behind, a finished gold base, no drones at the natural and a lost game
of course stupid to leave there, he loses _nothing_ by just playing it out.
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On June 06 2011 23:28 habeck wrote:
I watched the replay of first Game Idra Vs MMA, and i can't understand, he lost only few drones in his main, he saw that gold base was still building, but he left, wtf was he thinking? He saw all the things but he still left.
Considering the building timing of MMA's b3 (delayed by his fault), maybe he thought that was a b4...
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On June 06 2011 23:29 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 23:25 wei2coolman wrote:On June 06 2011 23:22 Blasphemi wrote:On June 06 2011 23:20 st3roids wrote:The sad thing about Idra is that being right is more important to him than being a good player. Been right what are you talking about ? Hes keep whining about zerg been underdog when they have dominated all pro scene - winning 3 times the gsl and a world cup and so many more - Its annoying for any non fanboy to see such excuses for a player who has nothing under his belt - , been a mediocre code s player and his only " achievement " is the king of the beta tournament , - while other good players such as jinro getting qqing when they not performing well in tournaments Idra won IGN season 1 and MLG DC as well. I know they're not GSL level wins but his only achievement is not King of the Beta. Don't forget, he was first foreigner to get into Code S. Also consistently kept getting into Ro16 or higher, usually Ro8 if I'm right. Which is more impressive than Jinro's sprint to Ro4, it shows Idra is much more consistent in high play, never being dropped in code S. Had he stayed in Korea he would easily be mentioned along the names of Nestea and Losira. Or he might have fallen away like Check/Zenio both of whom performed as well as he did while he was in Korea.
No way. Even in his change of environment from Korea to NA, he's obviously shown his ability to compete against Koreans still. Had he stayed in Korea, his ability would probably be even more enhanced...
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On June 06 2011 23:27 MCMXVI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 22:48 Blasphemi wrote:On June 06 2011 22:44 taLbuk wrote:On June 06 2011 22:38 Blasphemi wrote:On June 06 2011 22:11 thepeonwhocould wrote:
I feel like Thorzane, Naniwa and Idra are the only players who really looked capable of taking out the koreans. Thorzane vs MC was really close, Idra looked solid in his first 2 games vs MC and his first game against MMA. Naniwa looked ok vs losira and mc too imo. Naniwa vs Losira wasn't close. Losira outplayed him completely, even on Testbug, a map he'd never played before. Thorzain vs MC was overall 4-2 to MC, Thorzain played well but TvP is his best match by far and it's definitely MC's worst, but MC still won. Idra was great in the 2-0 but MC had done zero preperation being told only a day before he was going and was probably pretty jag lagged. I don't want to make massive excuses but you can see why MC wasn't 100% in this game, and he later beat Idra 4-0 with a proper days rest and time to adjust to the time zones. By the same logic IdrA was playing horribly after being so tilted from the MMA series, imagine if all 4 of those games went like the last one MC won, it would have been a completely different series. Idra played really well on Day 1 in general. On Days 2/3 he lost to Thorzain 2-0, MMA 2-0 and MC 4-0. His only win was versus Slush in ZvZ. I think that says quite a bit for Idra's consistancy as well. MC has also lost quite a bit. In the GSLTL's he was taken taken out when he needed to win two in a row. Won one, lost the other. At the most recent team league, he lost quite humiliatingly against Polt. Now, the last two GSL's, code S and the super league, out in the first round as well... I'm an MC fan, but by your arguments, MC is equally inconsistent.
Well MC is inconsistant in that he doesn't win everything all the time (nobody does). He still has two Code S wins, a Dreamhack, a Copenhagen Games, a Ro4 at the GSL World Tournament and a 3rd at MLG Columbus. MC is probably the most consistant player in Sc2, MC is also competing at a much higher level than Idra most of the time. If MC were to move to the US and compete in Zotac's and IGN Pro League's he'd lose a lot less games.
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On June 06 2011 23:29 KaiserJohan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 23:28 habeck wrote:
I watched the replay of first Game Idra Vs MMA, and i can't understand, he lost only few drones in his main, he saw that gold base was still building, but he left, wtf was he thinking? He saw all the things but he still left. Yeah this is my reaction too. What was he thinking?
Brain freeze.
He thought he was behind. His star sense failed him, hence the GG.
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If you notice in Idra vs MMA game 1, Idra put a huge amount of drones into the extractor at his natural, presumably accidentally upon seeing the drop. Maybe he thought they had all been killed.
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On June 06 2011 23:31 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 23:29 Blasphemi wrote:On June 06 2011 23:25 wei2coolman wrote:On June 06 2011 23:22 Blasphemi wrote:On June 06 2011 23:20 st3roids wrote:The sad thing about Idra is that being right is more important to him than being a good player. Been right what are you talking about ? Hes keep whining about zerg been underdog when they have dominated all pro scene - winning 3 times the gsl and a world cup and so many more - Its annoying for any non fanboy to see such excuses for a player who has nothing under his belt - , been a mediocre code s player and his only " achievement " is the king of the beta tournament , - while other good players such as jinro getting qqing when they not performing well in tournaments Idra won IGN season 1 and MLG DC as well. I know they're not GSL level wins but his only achievement is not King of the Beta. Don't forget, he was first foreigner to get into Code S. Also consistently kept getting into Ro16 or higher, usually Ro8 if I'm right. Which is more impressive than Jinro's sprint to Ro4, it shows Idra is much more consistent in high play, never being dropped in code S. Had he stayed in Korea he would easily be mentioned along the names of Nestea and Losira. Or he might have fallen away like Check/Zenio both of whom performed as well as he did while he was in Korea. No way. Even in his change of environment from Korea to NA, he's obviously shown his ability to compete against Koreans still. Had he stayed in Korea, his ability would probably be even more enhanced...
Very speculative, anyway he left Korea to make more money in an easier gaming enviorment, he's made his bed.
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On June 06 2011 23:22 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 23:20 st3roids wrote:The sad thing about Idra is that being right is more important to him than being a good player. Been right what are you talking about ? Hes keep whining about zerg been underdog when they have dominated all pro scene - winning 3 times the gsl and a world cup and so many more - Its annoying for any non fanboy to see such excuses for a player who has nothing under his belt - , been a mediocre code s player and his only " achievement " is the king of the beta tournament , - while other good players such as jinro getting qqing when they not performing well in tournaments Idra won IGN season 1 and MLG DC as well. I know they're not GSL level wins but his only achievement is not King of the Beta.
I think he's talking about when he's competing with the best the world has to offer, i.e. GSL, Dreamhack, IEM, etc.
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On June 06 2011 23:31 Oishiiii wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 23:28 habeck wrote:
I watched the replay of first Game Idra Vs MMA, and i can't understand, he lost only few drones in his main, he saw that gold base was still building, but he left, wtf was he thinking? He saw all the things but he still left. Considering the building timing of MMA's b3 (delayed by his fault), maybe he thought that was a b4...
MMA also had too many units for just 2 bases, so IdrA probably assumed he was on 3 and the gold was his 4th. Still pretty stupid to leave like that. Anyway, am I the only one who has a lot of fun picturing MMA's thoughts during that game? "These tanks are killing the rocks too slowly, gotta siege them up...Hoooly shit!" "I just got overrun, I should try to fall back and see what I can do...WTF? Well, I won't complain".
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On June 06 2011 23:10 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 23:07 TigerKarl wrote:
The sad thing about Idra is that being right is more important to him than being a good player.
Without his attitude in the ZvP Matchup (which i find in favour of Zerg, being a mid-Master Z) he would not have the need to be correct in his judgement and to make everyone else see that "zerg is not supposed to win that matchup"
Man, look at Losira or Morrow. Not only strong ZvP play by them, also very entertaining! ZvP is Morrow's worst match up. I realise he crushed some ameatur in the open bracket but generally his ZvP stats are pretty bad. I think MC's knocked him out of 3 tournaments.
MorroW has improved his ZvP a lot lately. He has completely changed his style. Earlier he played a lot like Idra, now his play looks a lot more like Losira. In an interview at the progaming house in Sweden earlier he said that he felt confident facing any protoss right now. I think ZvZ is still his worst matchup and ZvP might very well be his strongest matchup atm.
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where are the vods for day 3?
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On June 06 2011 23:35 Zane wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 23:31 Oishiiii wrote:On June 06 2011 23:28 habeck wrote:
I watched the replay of first Game Idra Vs MMA, and i can't understand, he lost only few drones in his main, he saw that gold base was still building, but he left, wtf was he thinking? He saw all the things but he still left. Considering the building timing of MMA's b3 (delayed by his fault), maybe he thought that was a b4... MMA also had too many units for just 2 bases, so IdrA probably assumed he was on 3 and the gold was his 4th. Still pretty stupid to leave like that. Anyway, am I the only one who has a lot of fun picturing MMA's thoughts during that game? "These tanks are killing the rocks too slowly, gotta siege them up...Hoooly shit!" "I just got overrun, I should try to fall back and see what I can do...WTF? Well, I won't complain".
Theres is a pic that mma is bursting into laughs when he sees the gg , you can find it on mlg
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On June 06 2011 23:08 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 23:02 DrainX wrote:On June 06 2011 22:38 Blasphemi wrote:On June 06 2011 22:11 thepeonwhocould wrote:
I feel like Thorzane, Naniwa and Idra are the only players who really looked capable of taking out the koreans. Thorzane vs MC was really close, Idra looked solid in his first 2 games vs MC and his first game against MMA. Naniwa looked ok vs losira and mc too imo. Naniwa vs Losira wasn't close. Losira outplayed him completely, even on Testbug, a map he'd never played before. Thorzain vs MC was overall 4-2 to MC, Thorzain played well but TvP is his best match by far and it's definitely MC's worst, but MC still won. Idra was great in the 2-0 but MC had done zero preperation being told only a day before he was going and was probably pretty jag lagged. I don't want to make massive excuses but you can see why MC wasn't 100% in this game, and he later beat Idra 4-0 with a proper days rest and time to adjust to the time zones. Sjow played a very even series vs MMA. MMA won 2-1 but every game was close. Without the extended series, Thorzain would have beaten MC 2-1 in the loser bracket. Thorzain didn't get the chance to play July or Moon and Naniwa didn't get the chance to play MMA so we can't be sure how that would have ended. The three Koreans played better than anyone else this weekend but I think the top foreigners can compete with them. MC would not have played the same in another bo3 as he did in an extended series. Both players played to win a bo7 not a bo3. Strategies used would different. It's really stupid to say Thorzain would have won 2-1, players would have picked different maps and done all sorts of things diffferently. MC won 4-2, it's simple. The Sjow vs MMA games were close but MMA's worst match is TvT where as it is statistically Sjow's best and a 2-1 loss is still a loss either way. There was no way Koreans were going to 2-0 everyone, it's just not possible in Sc2. Look at Sjow/July. July is a far, far better player and showed it beyond all doubt in their series, but Sjow took a massive risk in game 1 with two port Banshee and won a game with it.
Jebus..
I believe this MLG was decided by match-ups. Though korea took the top three position, with a slightly different seeds and a better tournament format, the result could have been very different, I believe. I don't think the difference in skill is at all as big as you indicate, and certainly concluding it on the basis of this tournament is wrong.
MMA
MMA got somewhat lucky and the only top-player he met that wasn't a zerg was sjow. The match ended 2-1 to MMA and sjow will be kicking himself for dying to a doom-drop after having a big advantage in the last game. MMA is extremely impressive versus zerg, no doubt, but that was all he had to play.
Losira
Losira is clearly very strong against protoss, and was lucky that his strongest opponents besides MMA were protoss-players. Haypro and TLO aren't the very top of outside-korea talent in their current form.
MC
Well, this guy is amazing and it showed. But thorzaihn had him under pressure and idra beat him, and he was of course previously beat by thorzaihn. Still though, being the best protoss in the world, that's what you would expect.
July
Plays very aggressive and risky, and might be a bit overrated. At least he faltered quite had towards the end of the tournament. I agree that he convincingly beat sjow, but vs Z is sjows worst match-up by a margin. Beat sheth 2-1 , but those were his two hardest non-korea opponents.
Moon
Surprised positively, very strong vs T, beating fenix who is quite strong vs Z. Lost against naniwa and slush.
For me, the dreamhack-tournament in two-three weeks will give a much better picture of the status of the skill-difference between korea and europe/usa. Better players and a better format could, I think, end up in a European victory (Admittedly, the performance of morrow and demuslim doesn't inspire confidence..)
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On June 06 2011 23:36 DrainX wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 23:10 Blasphemi wrote:On June 06 2011 23:07 TigerKarl wrote:
The sad thing about Idra is that being right is more important to him than being a good player.
Without his attitude in the ZvP Matchup (which i find in favour of Zerg, being a mid-Master Z) he would not have the need to be correct in his judgement and to make everyone else see that "zerg is not supposed to win that matchup"
Man, look at Losira or Morrow. Not only strong ZvP play by them, also very entertaining! ZvP is Morrow's worst match up. I realise he crushed some ameatur in the open bracket but generally his ZvP stats are pretty bad. I think MC's knocked him out of 3 tournaments. MorroW has improved his ZvP a lot lately. He has completely changed his style. Earlier he played a lot like Idra, now his play looks a lot more like Losira. In an interview at the progaming house in Sweden earlier he said that he felt confident facing any protoss right now. I think ZvZ is still his worst matchup and ZvP might very well be his strongest matchup atm.
Give it a few more big games before we can say for sure, I'm not sure when his ZvP versus LoveTT was played (as it was casted from a replay) but that seemed like the same old Morrow in ZvP to me.
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On June 06 2011 23:31 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 23:29 Blasphemi wrote:On June 06 2011 23:25 wei2coolman wrote:On June 06 2011 23:22 Blasphemi wrote:On June 06 2011 23:20 st3roids wrote:The sad thing about Idra is that being right is more important to him than being a good player. Been right what are you talking about ? Hes keep whining about zerg been underdog when they have dominated all pro scene - winning 3 times the gsl and a world cup and so many more - Its annoying for any non fanboy to see such excuses for a player who has nothing under his belt - , been a mediocre code s player and his only " achievement " is the king of the beta tournament , - while other good players such as jinro getting qqing when they not performing well in tournaments Idra won IGN season 1 and MLG DC as well. I know they're not GSL level wins but his only achievement is not King of the Beta. Don't forget, he was first foreigner to get into Code S. Also consistently kept getting into Ro16 or higher, usually Ro8 if I'm right. Which is more impressive than Jinro's sprint to Ro4, it shows Idra is much more consistent in high play, never being dropped in code S. Had he stayed in Korea he would easily be mentioned along the names of Nestea and Losira. Or he might have fallen away like Check/Zenio both of whom performed as well as he did while he was in Korea. No way. Even in his change of environment from Korea to NA, he's obviously shown his ability to compete against Koreans still. Had he stayed in Korea, his ability would probably be even more enhanced...
Really? Where has he shown his ability to compete against Koreans?
I can name only one: IdrA beating MC on Day 1 of MLG Columbus. Then losing 4 straight to him later on in the tournament.
I'm hoping your definition of "compete" is "win in a LAN". Don't even attempt to bring up NASL where IdrA himself believes the results should be thrown out because of the latency handicap.
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On June 06 2011 23:39 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 23:08 Blasphemi wrote:On June 06 2011 23:02 DrainX wrote:On June 06 2011 22:38 Blasphemi wrote:On June 06 2011 22:11 thepeonwhocould wrote:
I feel like Thorzane, Naniwa and Idra are the only players who really looked capable of taking out the koreans. Thorzane vs MC was really close, Idra looked solid in his first 2 games vs MC and his first game against MMA. Naniwa looked ok vs losira and mc too imo. Naniwa vs Losira wasn't close. Losira outplayed him completely, even on Testbug, a map he'd never played before. Thorzain vs MC was overall 4-2 to MC, Thorzain played well but TvP is his best match by far and it's definitely MC's worst, but MC still won. Idra was great in the 2-0 but MC had done zero preperation being told only a day before he was going and was probably pretty jag lagged. I don't want to make massive excuses but you can see why MC wasn't 100% in this game, and he later beat Idra 4-0 with a proper days rest and time to adjust to the time zones. Sjow played a very even series vs MMA. MMA won 2-1 but every game was close. Without the extended series, Thorzain would have beaten MC 2-1 in the loser bracket. Thorzain didn't get the chance to play July or Moon and Naniwa didn't get the chance to play MMA so we can't be sure how that would have ended. The three Koreans played better than anyone else this weekend but I think the top foreigners can compete with them. MC would not have played the same in another bo3 as he did in an extended series. Both players played to win a bo7 not a bo3. Strategies used would different. It's really stupid to say Thorzain would have won 2-1, players would have picked different maps and done all sorts of things diffferently. MC won 4-2, it's simple. The Sjow vs MMA games were close but MMA's worst match is TvT where as it is statistically Sjow's best and a 2-1 loss is still a loss either way. There was no way Koreans were going to 2-0 everyone, it's just not possible in Sc2. Look at Sjow/July. July is a far, far better player and showed it beyond all doubt in their series, but Sjow took a massive risk in game 1 with two port Banshee and won a game with it. Jebus.. I believe this MLG was decided by match-ups. Though korea took the top three position, with a slightly different seeds and a better tournament format, the result could have been very different, I believe. I don't think the difference in skill is at all as big as you indicate, and certainly concluding it on the basis of this tournament is wrong. MMA MMA got somewhat lucky and the only top-player he met that wasn't a zerg was sjow. The match ended 2-1 to MMA and sjow will be kicking himself for dying to a doom-drop after having a big advantage in the last game. MMA is extremely impressive versus zerg, no doubt, but that was all he had to play. Losira Losira is clearly very strong against protoss, and was lucky that his strongest opponents besides MMA were protoss-players. Haypro and TLO aren't the very top of outside-korea talent in their current form. MC Well, this guy is amazing and it showed. But thorzaihn had him under pressure and idra beat him, and he was of course previously beat by thorzaihn. Still though, being the best protoss in the world, that's what you would expect. July Plays very aggressive and risky, and might be a bit overrated. At least he faltered quite had towards the end of the tournament. I agree that he convincingly beat sjow, but vs Z is sjows worst match-up by a margin. Beat sheth 2-1 , but those were his two hardest non-korea opponents. Moon Surprised positively, very strong vs T, beating fenix who is quite strong vs Z. Lost against naniwa and slush. For me, the dreamhack-tournament in two-three weeks will give a much better picture of the status of the skill-difference between korea and europe/usa. Better players and a better format could, I think, end up in a European victory (Admittedly, the performance of morrow and demuslim doesn't inspire confidence..)
MKP and MC will be very scary at Dreamhack. Plus there's still about 13 invites left, I'm hoping so hard for some from Losira/Nestea/MVP/MMA/July.
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does any one have any VOD for MC vs Idra part two? seems like the vods are not in the mlg site yet.
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On June 06 2011 23:46 sraelgaiznaer wrote:
does any one have any VOD for MC vs Idra part two? seems like the vods are not in the mlg site yet.
I'm looking for that too!!
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Who did the 4 rax? I cant remember if it was sunday or saturday.
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EPT
