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MLG Columbus Day 3 - Page 1425

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
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We will be moderating harshly in this thread. Think twice before you post. Things we are watching for: image macros, balance whining, "eagles", player bashing etc. We encourage civil and reasoned critique of our moderation - please post it in the website feedback forum.

Please don't complain about MLG stream quality or MLG itself. They work very hard to provide you with an enjoyable service.

Enough with the racism discussions, this is a LR Thread. Cut it out.
-- updated 7:55 KST
Lightwish01
Profile Joined April 2011
65 Posts
June 06 2011 15:38 GMT
#28481
yup this was the biggest wtf in the tourney
torgr3
Profile Joined June 2011
7 Posts
June 06 2011 15:43 GMT
#28482
On June 07 2011 00:37 KaiserJohan wrote:
Also in MMA vs Idra game 1, why did MMA sac his 3rd CC?! I mean it looked intentional, because he unsieged JUST after he killed it, he surely couldnot have missed it?!

He just shift queued everything I assume
You can see his reaction with the ingame cam several seconds later
He wanted to click on the rocks but accidently clicked the orbital antenna or something
LaiShin
Profile Joined November 2005
Australia978 Posts
June 06 2011 15:43 GMT
#28483
On June 07 2011 00:37 KaiserJohan wrote:
Also in MMA vs Idra game 1, why did MMA sac his 3rd CC?! I mean it looked intentional, because he unsieged JUST after he killed it, he surely couldnot have missed it?!


He probably realized it a wee bit before the final volley of the tanks. It is not intentional unless u're throwing some conspiracy into the fray. It's choking in a big tourney and oGsTOP was the first notable one to have targeted his own building.
Mr Mauve
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom386 Posts
June 06 2011 15:49 GMT
#28484
On June 07 2011 00:12 Syben wrote:
I wonder if any of the Koreans will come back on their own dollar for the next mlg


I think I would be very tempted if I were MMA!

If I were, I'd have $5K in the bank and 3rd seed for the next tournament (unofficial, source: the very wonderful Primadog).

I'd have a $50K prize in Providence in November on my mind. I'd be thinking that even if I didn't come to any other MLG event before then, I'd probably qualify for the 2011 Championship finals. But why not spin the wheel and come back for Anaheim? I'd be the top seed in my group, I'd all-but-guarantee myself a good seeding for Providence, I'd stand a very decent chance of covering my air fare (which finishing 4th or 5th should do), I may well make a profit, and I'd build up some Western exposure for SlayerS and maybe even sell a few shirts if I did. And it's potentially Code S insurance if I'm unlucky in the next Code A tournament (there aren't many potential Bombers around, but I might get, I dunno, DongRaeGu or Ganzi or Min or some unknown ladder monster).

I'd be tempted to wait and see who the next 4 Korean exchanges were, though.
Hello! How are you today?
Galleon.frigate
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada721 Posts
June 06 2011 16:02 GMT
#28485
On June 06 2011 23:56 Loomies wrote:
Can anyone else find the Day 3 of Idra vs MC on the MLG site??? I see idra vs MMA vods


ding ding - they simply not loaded yet? any tips people ? been looking myself
jyLee
Profile Joined August 2009
United States350 Posts
June 06 2011 16:03 GMT
#28486
Lets be honest, aside from idra and possibly thorzain, nobody looked even close to the level of the 5 koreans (even moon). With better luck the top 5 would of been all koreans. I can see sc2 go the route of bw as the game gets more refined and koreans becoming the absolute dominant force.
SaberNodoka
Profile Joined June 2011
151 Posts
June 06 2011 16:06 GMT
#28487
Guys, Cella casted MMA v July and MC v Idra



Check it out. Its quite funny.

Shut up music. Yes boss. lol
Blasphemi
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom980 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-06 16:19:09
June 06 2011 16:18 GMT
#28488
On June 07 2011 00:28 dpL wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 07 2011 00:23 Ryhn wrote:
On June 07 2011 00:20 dpL wrote:
On June 07 2011 00:12 PHC wrote:
On June 06 2011 23:39 m0ck wrote:
On June 06 2011 23:08 Blasphemi wrote:
On June 06 2011 23:02 DrainX wrote:
On June 06 2011 22:38 Blasphemi wrote:
On June 06 2011 22:11 thepeonwhocould wrote:
I feel like Thorzane, Naniwa and Idra are the only players who really looked capable of taking out the koreans. Thorzane vs MC was really close, Idra looked solid in his first 2 games vs MC and his first game against MMA. Naniwa looked ok vs losira and mc too imo.


Naniwa vs Losira wasn't close. Losira outplayed him completely, even on Testbug, a map he'd never played before.

Thorzain vs MC was overall 4-2 to MC, Thorzain played well but TvP is his best match by far and it's definitely MC's worst, but MC still won.

Idra was great in the 2-0 but MC had done zero preperation being told only a day before he was going and was probably pretty jag lagged. I don't want to make massive excuses but you can see why MC wasn't 100% in this game, and he later beat Idra 4-0 with a proper days rest and time to adjust to the time zones.

Sjow played a very even series vs MMA. MMA won 2-1 but every game was close. Without the extended series, Thorzain would have beaten MC 2-1 in the loser bracket. Thorzain didn't get the chance to play July or Moon and Naniwa didn't get the chance to play MMA so we can't be sure how that would have ended. The three Koreans played better than anyone else this weekend but I think the top foreigners can compete with them.


MC would not have played the same in another bo3 as he did in an extended series. Both players played to win a bo7 not a bo3. Strategies used would different. It's really stupid to say Thorzain would have won 2-1, players would have picked different maps and done all sorts of things diffferently. MC won 4-2, it's simple.

The Sjow vs MMA games were close but MMA's worst match is TvT where as it is statistically Sjow's best and a 2-1 loss is still a loss either way.

There was no way Koreans were going to 2-0 everyone, it's just not possible in Sc2. Look at Sjow/July. July is a far, far better player and showed it beyond all doubt in their series, but Sjow took a massive risk in game 1 with two port Banshee and won a game with it.


+ Show Spoiler +
Jebus..

I believe this MLG was decided by match-ups. Though korea took the top three position, with a slightly different seeds and a better tournament format, the result could have been very different, I believe. I don't think the difference in skill is at all as big as you indicate, and certainly concluding it on the basis of this tournament is wrong.

MMA

MMA got somewhat lucky and the only top-player he met that wasn't a zerg was sjow. The match ended 2-1 to MMA and sjow will be kicking himself for dying to a doom-drop after having a big advantage in the last game. MMA is extremely impressive versus zerg, no doubt, but that was all he had to play.

Losira

Losira is clearly very strong against protoss, and was lucky that his strongest opponents besides MMA were protoss-players. Haypro and TLO aren't the very top of outside-korea talent in their current form.

MC

Well, this guy is amazing and it showed. But thorzaihn had him under pressure and idra beat him, and he was of course previously beat by thorzaihn. Still though, being the best protoss in the world, that's what you would expect.

July

Plays very aggressive and risky, and might be a bit overrated. At least he faltered quite had towards the end of the tournament. I agree that he convincingly beat sjow, but vs Z is sjows worst match-up by a margin. Beat sheth 2-1 , but those were his two hardest non-korea opponents.

Moon

Surprised positively, very strong vs T, beating fenix who is quite strong vs Z. Lost against naniwa and slush.


For me, the dreamhack-tournament in two-three weeks will give a much better picture of the status of the skill-difference between korea and europe/usa. Better players and a better format could, I think, end up in a European victory (Admittedly, the performance of morrow and demuslim doesn't inspire confidence..)



You can speculate all you want but results speak much louder than hypotheticals. What if July and Moon played on different sides of the bracket? Maybe we could have a top 5/5 Korean podium (-.-)!!!

If IEM, Dreamhack Stockholm, GSL WC, Copenhagen Games, and now MLG Columbus aren't enough to determine the status of the skill difference, I honestly don't see how Dreamhack Summer (less than 2 weeks away yay!!) will help considering Code A dropouts dominate foreign tournaments.



Have you looked at the invite list for DH Summer? Almost the entire European scene will be represented. As far as sheer quantity of top players goes there's plenty of players in that tournament that can take games off and simply straight up beat Koreans.



His point was that you're elevating future results above current results as a basis for your argument.

It's not very sound at all. >:

Wait for DH Summer, see the foreigners stomp face, and then say, "See! Look! These guys are so awesome and I can't wait to see more!" You're jumping the gun a bit.

I'm not predicting that the foreigners will stomp face, I honestly don't care and I'm only interested in good games, but it is ridiculous to say that MLG had the same quantity of top foreigner players and that you can make a prediction based on the MLG results as far as DH summer goes.


The foreigners at Dreamhack are not particularly better than at MLG. The only big additions are White Ra, Kas, Sen and Dimaga. All of those except Sen have been man handled by Koreans before and neither are any of them better than Thorzain and Naniwa who were outplayed by Koreans at this tournament.

The Koreans at Dreamhack are a bit weaker though, but so was Moon and he only lost because he played MC. We'll see who the final invites are.
Blacktion
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom1148 Posts
June 06 2011 16:18 GMT
#28489
On June 07 2011 00:49 Mr Mauve wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 07 2011 00:12 Syben wrote:
I wonder if any of the Koreans will come back on their own dollar for the next mlg


I think I would be very tempted if I were MMA!

If I were, I'd have $5K in the bank and 3rd seed for the next tournament (unofficial, source: the very wonderful Primadog).

I'd have a $50K prize in Providence in November on my mind. I'd be thinking that even if I didn't come to any other MLG event before then, I'd probably qualify for the 2011 Championship finals. But why not spin the wheel and come back for Anaheim? I'd be the top seed in my group, I'd all-but-guarantee myself a good seeding for Providence, I'd stand a very decent chance of covering my air fare (which finishing 4th or 5th should do), I may well make a profit, and I'd build up some Western exposure for SlayerS and maybe even sell a few shirts if I did. And it's potentially Code S insurance if I'm unlucky in the next Code A tournament (there aren't many potential Bombers around, but I might get, I dunno, DongRaeGu or Ganzi or Min or some unknown ladder monster).

I'd be tempted to wait and see who the next 4 Korean exchanges were, though.

TBH i really dont see MMA passing up the chance to go to anaheim if he is invited. There is very little chance of him not making money on it given the prize pool of the event and the chance to pretty much guarantee a place in the $50000 final tourney. Also i think all he would need to do is show cella/boxer a clip of 2000+ people chanting his name and they will see that the publicity for Slayers! is well worth the money to pay for MMAs flight to LA.
Where's Boxer, there's victory! - figq
chipmonklord17
Profile Joined February 2011
United States11944 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-06 16:22:13
June 06 2011 16:20 GMT
#28490
On June 07 2011 01:03 jyLee wrote:
Lets be honest, aside from idra and possibly thorzain, nobody looked even close to the level of the 5 koreans (even moon). With better luck the top 5 would of been all koreans. I can see sc2 go the route of bw as the game gets more refined and koreans becoming the absolute dominant force.


Don't start this again. A LOT of group play was 2-1 in favor of the koreans. The last day alone Sjow/Thorzain took games off of the Koreans. Naniwa got coin flippy PvP and is still highly respected by MC and credited as one of the best protoss in the world (best in europe as said by MC).

It wasn't a "domination". Plus consider the lack of many of europes best, (Whitera, Nightend, Kas, Jinro, Socke. Dimaga, Bratok, ect.) + Huk and Sen. Also worth noting Select and Kiwikaki did exceptionally poorly compared to their usual ass kicking selves.
Yaotzin
Profile Joined August 2010
South Africa4280 Posts
June 06 2011 16:26 GMT
#28491
Foreigners competed but ultimately they all lost. Koreans only lost knockout games to other Koreans, and took the top 3. It's not BW level domination, but it's still clear superiority.

Bringing up the player field is foolish considering how many sick Koreans weren't there either. The best player in the world for starters, and two top 3 Terrans (MVP & Bomber).
Zaurus
Profile Joined October 2010
Singapore676 Posts
June 06 2011 16:27 GMT
#28492
On June 07 2011 01:20 chipmonklord17 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 07 2011 01:03 jyLee wrote:
Lets be honest, aside from idra and possibly thorzain, nobody looked even close to the level of the 5 koreans (even moon). With better luck the top 5 would of been all koreans. I can see sc2 go the route of bw as the game gets more refined and koreans becoming the absolute dominant force.


Don't start this again. A LOT of group play was 2-1 in favor of the koreans. The last day alone Sjow/Thorzain took games off of the Koreans. Naniwa got coin flippy PvP and is still highly respected by MC and credited as one of the best protoss in the world (best in europe as said by MC).

It wasn't a "domination". Plus consider the lack of many of europes best, (Whitera, Nightend, Kas, Jinro, Socke. Dimaga, Bratok, ect.) + Huk and Sen. Also worth noting Select and Kiwikaki did exceptionally poorly compared to their usual ass kicking selves.


Denying the facts can do nothing to improve the skills of the foreigners. I hope the foreigner pros playing can see the difference in skills and start training harder, if they have the same self denial attitude like you, then the gap will only draw bigger. Just go look at the replays and see from the koreans view point, see how they move their camera and their units. Their APMs are not for show.
Milvus
Profile Joined May 2010
Switzerland400 Posts
June 06 2011 16:28 GMT
#28493
Didnt see the games but looking at the results I would attribute Idra with a very strong performance! Definately one of the best foreigners. And the moment his coach removes that G button from his key board he will compete with the top koreans for sure.
bucckevin
Profile Joined April 2011
858 Posts
June 06 2011 16:28 GMT
#28494
On June 06 2011 23:51 m0ck wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 06 2011 23:48 probl3ms wrote:
Who did the 4 rax? I cant remember if it was sunday or saturday.


MMA against idra? 2 rax into 4 rax. So stupid by idra..




Idra supply blocked himself with 500 banked minerals when MMA arrived with the marines. That's why he lost LOL.
Blasphemi
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom980 Posts
June 06 2011 16:33 GMT
#28495
On June 07 2011 01:20 chipmonklord17 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 07 2011 01:03 jyLee wrote:
Lets be honest, aside from idra and possibly thorzain, nobody looked even close to the level of the 5 koreans (even moon). With better luck the top 5 would of been all koreans. I can see sc2 go the route of bw as the game gets more refined and koreans becoming the absolute dominant force.


Don't start this again. A LOT of group play was 2-1 in favor of the koreans. The last day alone Sjow/Thorzain took games off of the Koreans. Naniwa got coin flippy PvP and is still highly respected by MC and credited as one of the best protoss in the world (best in europe as said by MC).

It wasn't a "domination". Plus consider the lack of many of europes best (Whitera, Nightend, Kas, Jinro ect.) + Huk. Also worth noting Select and Kiwikaki did exceptionally poorly compared to their usual ass kicking selves.


You are delusional. Think about this, not one single Korean was eliminated by a non-Korean. Even someone like me who expected Koreans to dominate was amazed by how badly the foreigners did.

Overall in Championship pool/knockout games Koreans won 56 games versus foreigners, they lost 17.

In terms of matches Koreans won 26 matches, they lost 3.

2 of those losses were Moon, who nobody considers a top Korean (if the discussion is that foreigners can compete with top Koreans).

If we discount Moon, Koreans won 22 matches and lost 1.

Foreigners were dominated beyond what anyone had expected.

ehalf
Profile Joined September 2010
408 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-06 16:37:37
June 06 2011 16:37 GMT
#28496
MMA, MMA, MMA!
Prevolved
Profile Joined March 2011
United States573 Posts
June 06 2011 16:39 GMT
#28497
On June 07 2011 01:06 SaberNodoka wrote:
Guys, Cella casted MMA v July and MC v Idra

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFwj3KcL0AY&feature=related

Check it out. Its quite funny.

Shut up music. Yes boss. lol


Haha I was watching his live stream when he did that. Cella's such a goof
Know thyself.
TheDougler
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada8302 Posts
June 06 2011 16:40 GMT
#28498
I FINALLY watched MC vs Losira game 3, my god that is a SICK game.

When I played zerg I actually used nyduses like that (lol, before they were cool!) Altho never the one at the front, that was a SICK call that worked out BEAUTIFULLY.

Another fun Nydus trick is once you've mined out your main, rally your worker rally to the nydus and create a nydus at your furthest expansion rallied to the minerals, then just be sure to unload that one every so often and you can quickly saturate your minerals or rush units over there to defend.

Anyways grats to MMA, Losira, and MC. I still can't get over that AMAZING nydus use tho, holy check!
I root for Euro Zergs, NA Protoss* and Korean Terrans. (Any North American who has beat a Korean Pro as Protoss counts as NA Toss)
SushilS
Profile Joined November 2010
2115 Posts
June 06 2011 16:50 GMT
#28499
On June 06 2011 02:35 Fionn wrote:
Fantasy is laughing at Idra.

Bahahahaha.....
iceiceice: I’m going to make this short; I am the one true tinker player.
Valckrie
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom533 Posts
June 06 2011 16:52 GMT
#28500
Would've liked to see a foreigner in the top 3, but it just proves that practice makes you the better player. The koreans practice alot more than the foreigners, and it shows through their results.
Fear is a 4 letter word. Why be afraid?
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