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Enough with the racism discussions, this is a LR Thread. Cut it out. -- updated 7:55 KST
On June 06 2011 22:11 thepeonwhocould wrote: I feel like Thorzane, Naniwa and Idra are the only players who really looked capable of taking out the koreans. Thorzane vs MC was really close, Idra looked solid in his first 2 games vs MC and his first game against MMA. Naniwa looked ok vs losira and mc too imo.
Naniwa vs Losira wasn't close. Losira outplayed him completely, even on Testbug, a map he'd never played before.
Thorzain vs MC was overall 4-2 to MC, Thorzain played well but TvP is his best match by far and it's definitely MC's worst, but MC still won.
Idra was great in the 2-0 but MC had done zero preperation being told only a day before he was going and was probably pretty jag lagged. I don't want to make massive excuses but you can see why MC wasn't 100% in this game, and he later beat Idra 4-0 with a proper days rest and time to adjust to the time zones.
Sjow played a very even series vs MMA. MMA won 2-1 but every game was close. Without the extended series, Thorzain would have beaten MC 2-1 in the loser bracket. Thorzain didn't get the chance to play July or Moon and Naniwa didn't get the chance to play MMA so we can't be sure how that would have ended. The three Koreans played better than anyone else this weekend but I think the top foreigners can compete with them.
MC would not have played the same in another bo3 as he did in an extended series. Both players played to win a bo7 not a bo3. Strategies used would different. It's really stupid to say Thorzain would have won 2-1, players would have picked different maps and done all sorts of things diffferently. MC won 4-2, it's simple.
The Sjow vs MMA games were close but MMA's worst match is TvT where as it is statistically Sjow's best and a 2-1 loss is still a loss either way.
There was no way Koreans were going to 2-0 everyone, it's just not possible in Sc2. Look at Sjow/July. July is a far, far better player and showed it beyond all doubt in their series, but Sjow took a massive risk in game 1 with two port Banshee and won a game with it.
Jebus..
I believe this MLG was decided by match-ups. Though korea took the top three position, with a slightly different seeds and a better tournament format, the result could have been very different, I believe. I don't think the difference in skill is at all as big as you indicate, and certainly concluding it on the basis of this tournament is wrong.
MMA
MMA got somewhat lucky and the only top-player he met that wasn't a zerg was sjow. The match ended 2-1 to MMA and sjow will be kicking himself for dying to a doom-drop after having a big advantage in the last game. MMA is extremely impressive versus zerg, no doubt, but that was all he had to play.
Losira
Losira is clearly very strong against protoss, and was lucky that his strongest opponents besides MMA were protoss-players. Haypro and TLO aren't the very top of outside-korea talent in their current form.
MC
Well, this guy is amazing and it showed. But thorzaihn had him under pressure and idra beat him, and he was of course previously beat by thorzaihn. Still though, being the best protoss in the world, that's what you would expect.
July
Plays very aggressive and risky, and might be a bit overrated. At least he faltered quite had towards the end of the tournament. I agree that he convincingly beat sjow, but vs Z is sjows worst match-up by a margin. Beat sheth 2-1 , but those were his two hardest non-korea opponents.
Moon
Surprised positively, very strong vs T, beating fenix who is quite strong vs Z. Lost against naniwa and slush.
For me, the dreamhack-tournament in two-three weeks will give a much better picture of the status of the skill-difference between korea and europe/usa. Better players and a better format could, I think, end up in a European victory (Admittedly, the performance of morrow and demuslim doesn't inspire confidence..)
MKP and MC will be very scary at Dreamhack. Plus there's still about 13 invites left, I'm hoping so hard for some from Losira/Nestea/MVP/MMA/July.
On June 06 2011 21:41 Cramsy wrote: Can anyone help me out for Vods of the MC Vs Idra Rematch? I really, really want to see MC turn that series around
You mean see Idra turn it around on himself?
Not going to deny that MC is THE best protoss on the scene right now. But I wanted to cry seeing idra just give up those first three games. I seriously cannot see any of those games being anything more than idra simply defeating himself.... The game on Tal-Darim MAYBE could be justified as a straight-up win for MC, but then I keep thinking about that expo idra had, and all the things he could have done instead... Move the expo? Cancel it and turtle up?
...Or just write 'gg'.
Anyways, regardless of idra kind of ruining the final day for me (I still love the guy but he seriously has a few things to work on as both a professional SC2 player and a mature human being), I thought MLG Columbus was easily the most intense starcraft II experience I have witnessed. So glad to see so many others saying the same.
On June 06 2011 22:11 thepeonwhocould wrote: I feel like Thorzane, Naniwa and Idra are the only players who really looked capable of taking out the koreans. Thorzane vs MC was really close, Idra looked solid in his first 2 games vs MC and his first game against MMA. Naniwa looked ok vs losira and mc too imo.
Naniwa vs Losira wasn't close. Losira outplayed him completely, even on Testbug, a map he'd never played before.
Thorzain vs MC was overall 4-2 to MC, Thorzain played well but TvP is his best match by far and it's definitely MC's worst, but MC still won.
Idra was great in the 2-0 but MC had done zero preperation being told only a day before he was going and was probably pretty jag lagged. I don't want to make massive excuses but you can see why MC wasn't 100% in this game, and he later beat Idra 4-0 with a proper days rest and time to adjust to the time zones.
Sjow played a very even series vs MMA. MMA won 2-1 but every game was close. Without the extended series, Thorzain would have beaten MC 2-1 in the loser bracket. Thorzain didn't get the chance to play July or Moon and Naniwa didn't get the chance to play MMA so we can't be sure how that would have ended. The three Koreans played better than anyone else this weekend but I think the top foreigners can compete with them.
MC would not have played the same in another bo3 as he did in an extended series. Both players played to win a bo7 not a bo3. Strategies used would different. It's really stupid to say Thorzain would have won 2-1, players would have picked different maps and done all sorts of things diffferently. MC won 4-2, it's simple.
The Sjow vs MMA games were close but MMA's worst match is TvT where as it is statistically Sjow's best and a 2-1 loss is still a loss either way.
There was no way Koreans were going to 2-0 everyone, it's just not possible in Sc2. Look at Sjow/July. July is a far, far better player and showed it beyond all doubt in their series, but Sjow took a massive risk in game 1 with two port Banshee and won a game with it.
I believe this MLG was decided by match-ups. Though korea took the top three position, with a slightly different seeds and a better tournament format, the result could have been very different, I believe. I don't think the difference in skill is at all as big as you indicate, and certainly concluding it on the basis of this tournament is wrong.
MMA
MMA got somewhat lucky and the only top-player he met that wasn't a zerg was sjow. The match ended 2-1 to MMA and sjow will be kicking himself for dying to a doom-drop after having a big advantage in the last game. MMA is extremely impressive versus zerg, no doubt, but that was all he had to play.
Losira
Losira is clearly very strong against protoss, and was lucky that his strongest opponents besides MMA were protoss-players. Haypro and TLO aren't the very top of outside-korea talent in their current form.
MC
Well, this guy is amazing and it showed. But thorzaihn had him under pressure and idra beat him, and he was of course previously beat by thorzaihn. Still though, being the best protoss in the world, that's what you would expect.
July
Plays very aggressive and risky, and might be a bit overrated. At least he faltered quite had towards the end of the tournament. I agree that he convincingly beat sjow, but vs Z is sjows worst match-up by a margin. Beat sheth 2-1 , but those were his two hardest non-korea opponents.
Moon
Surprised positively, very strong vs T, beating fenix who is quite strong vs Z. Lost against naniwa and slush.
For me, the dreamhack-tournament in two-three weeks will give a much better picture of the status of the skill-difference between korea and europe/usa. Better players and a better format could, I think, end up in a European victory (Admittedly, the performance of morrow and demuslim doesn't inspire confidence..)
You can speculate all you want but results speak much louder than hypotheticals. What if July and Moon played on different sides of the bracket? Maybe we could have a top 5/5 Korean podium (-.-)!!!
If IEM, Dreamhack Stockholm, GSL WC, Copenhagen Games, and now MLG Columbus aren't enough to determine the status of the skill difference, I honestly don't see how Dreamhack Summer (less than 2 weeks away yay!!) will help considering Code A dropouts dominate foreign tournaments.
On June 06 2011 21:41 Cramsy wrote: Anyways, regardless of idra kind of ruining the final day for me (I still love the guy but he seriously has a few things to work on as both a professional SC2 player and a mature human being)
You ever thought about the fact that his immense game knowledge might make him leave in weird situations/all-in at some maps in some positions? No offense but, if you just listen to him cast once - he's almost always spot on about what's going to happen and the outcome of the matches, simply because he reads the game so god darn well. Also kind of silly to call him out in person in my opinion.
On June 06 2011 22:11 thepeonwhocould wrote: I feel like Thorzane, Naniwa and Idra are the only players who really looked capable of taking out the koreans. Thorzane vs MC was really close, Idra looked solid in his first 2 games vs MC and his first game against MMA. Naniwa looked ok vs losira and mc too imo.
Naniwa vs Losira wasn't close. Losira outplayed him completely, even on Testbug, a map he'd never played before.
Thorzain vs MC was overall 4-2 to MC, Thorzain played well but TvP is his best match by far and it's definitely MC's worst, but MC still won.
Idra was great in the 2-0 but MC had done zero preperation being told only a day before he was going and was probably pretty jag lagged. I don't want to make massive excuses but you can see why MC wasn't 100% in this game, and he later beat Idra 4-0 with a proper days rest and time to adjust to the time zones.
Sjow played a very even series vs MMA. MMA won 2-1 but every game was close. Without the extended series, Thorzain would have beaten MC 2-1 in the loser bracket. Thorzain didn't get the chance to play July or Moon and Naniwa didn't get the chance to play MMA so we can't be sure how that would have ended. The three Koreans played better than anyone else this weekend but I think the top foreigners can compete with them.
MC would not have played the same in another bo3 as he did in an extended series. Both players played to win a bo7 not a bo3. Strategies used would different. It's really stupid to say Thorzain would have won 2-1, players would have picked different maps and done all sorts of things diffferently. MC won 4-2, it's simple.
The Sjow vs MMA games were close but MMA's worst match is TvT where as it is statistically Sjow's best and a 2-1 loss is still a loss either way.
There was no way Koreans were going to 2-0 everyone, it's just not possible in Sc2. Look at Sjow/July. July is a far, far better player and showed it beyond all doubt in their series, but Sjow took a massive risk in game 1 with two port Banshee and won a game with it.
I believe this MLG was decided by match-ups. Though korea took the top three position, with a slightly different seeds and a better tournament format, the result could have been very different, I believe. I don't think the difference in skill is at all as big as you indicate, and certainly concluding it on the basis of this tournament is wrong.
MMA
MMA got somewhat lucky and the only top-player he met that wasn't a zerg was sjow. The match ended 2-1 to MMA and sjow will be kicking himself for dying to a doom-drop after having a big advantage in the last game. MMA is extremely impressive versus zerg, no doubt, but that was all he had to play.
Losira
Losira is clearly very strong against protoss, and was lucky that his strongest opponents besides MMA were protoss-players. Haypro and TLO aren't the very top of outside-korea talent in their current form.
MC
Well, this guy is amazing and it showed. But thorzaihn had him under pressure and idra beat him, and he was of course previously beat by thorzaihn. Still though, being the best protoss in the world, that's what you would expect.
July
Plays very aggressive and risky, and might be a bit overrated. At least he faltered quite had towards the end of the tournament. I agree that he convincingly beat sjow, but vs Z is sjows worst match-up by a margin. Beat sheth 2-1 , but those were his two hardest non-korea opponents.
Moon
Surprised positively, very strong vs T, beating fenix who is quite strong vs Z. Lost against naniwa and slush.
For me, the dreamhack-tournament in two-three weeks will give a much better picture of the status of the skill-difference between korea and europe/usa. Better players and a better format could, I think, end up in a European victory (Admittedly, the performance of morrow and demuslim doesn't inspire confidence..)
You can speculate all you want but results speak much louder than hypotheticals. What if July and Moon played on different sides of the bracket? Maybe we could have a top 5/5 Korean podium (-.-)!!!
If IEM, Dreamhack Stockholm, GSL WC, Copenhagen Games, and now MLG Columbus aren't enough to determine the status of the skill difference, I honestly don't see how Dreamhack Summer (less than 2 weeks away yay!!) will help considering Code A dropouts dominate foreign tournaments.
Have you looked at the invite list for DH Summer? It's not 20 or so professionals with the majority of those being North Americans. Almost every corner of Europe will be represented and as far as sheer quantity of top players goes there's a lot more players at DH with the ability to take games off Koreans and straight up beat them. That the top three will be Koreans is not a given.
These games all made me very happy to be a fan of E*SPORTS :3
The S. Korean invites played exceptionally well, and put up some amazing games. I'm really looking forward to how the whole S. Korea vs The World fight ends up in a year or two. I've always loved the Koreans the most because of my BW background, but I wouldn't mind seeing some amazing match-ups and competition between the tippy-top of each side for years to come.
On June 06 2011 22:11 thepeonwhocould wrote: I feel like Thorzane, Naniwa and Idra are the only players who really looked capable of taking out the koreans. Thorzane vs MC was really close, Idra looked solid in his first 2 games vs MC and his first game against MMA. Naniwa looked ok vs losira and mc too imo.
Naniwa vs Losira wasn't close. Losira outplayed him completely, even on Testbug, a map he'd never played before.
Thorzain vs MC was overall 4-2 to MC, Thorzain played well but TvP is his best match by far and it's definitely MC's worst, but MC still won.
Idra was great in the 2-0 but MC had done zero preperation being told only a day before he was going and was probably pretty jag lagged. I don't want to make massive excuses but you can see why MC wasn't 100% in this game, and he later beat Idra 4-0 with a proper days rest and time to adjust to the time zones.
Sjow played a very even series vs MMA. MMA won 2-1 but every game was close. Without the extended series, Thorzain would have beaten MC 2-1 in the loser bracket. Thorzain didn't get the chance to play July or Moon and Naniwa didn't get the chance to play MMA so we can't be sure how that would have ended. The three Koreans played better than anyone else this weekend but I think the top foreigners can compete with them.
MC would not have played the same in another bo3 as he did in an extended series. Both players played to win a bo7 not a bo3. Strategies used would different. It's really stupid to say Thorzain would have won 2-1, players would have picked different maps and done all sorts of things diffferently. MC won 4-2, it's simple.
The Sjow vs MMA games were close but MMA's worst match is TvT where as it is statistically Sjow's best and a 2-1 loss is still a loss either way.
There was no way Koreans were going to 2-0 everyone, it's just not possible in Sc2. Look at Sjow/July. July is a far, far better player and showed it beyond all doubt in their series, but Sjow took a massive risk in game 1 with two port Banshee and won a game with it.
I believe this MLG was decided by match-ups. Though korea took the top three position, with a slightly different seeds and a better tournament format, the result could have been very different, I believe. I don't think the difference in skill is at all as big as you indicate, and certainly concluding it on the basis of this tournament is wrong.
MMA
MMA got somewhat lucky and the only top-player he met that wasn't a zerg was sjow. The match ended 2-1 to MMA and sjow will be kicking himself for dying to a doom-drop after having a big advantage in the last game. MMA is extremely impressive versus zerg, no doubt, but that was all he had to play.
Losira
Losira is clearly very strong against protoss, and was lucky that his strongest opponents besides MMA were protoss-players. Haypro and TLO aren't the very top of outside-korea talent in their current form.
MC
Well, this guy is amazing and it showed. But thorzaihn had him under pressure and idra beat him, and he was of course previously beat by thorzaihn. Still though, being the best protoss in the world, that's what you would expect.
July
Plays very aggressive and risky, and might be a bit overrated. At least he faltered quite had towards the end of the tournament. I agree that he convincingly beat sjow, but vs Z is sjows worst match-up by a margin. Beat sheth 2-1 , but those were his two hardest non-korea opponents.
Moon
Surprised positively, very strong vs T, beating fenix who is quite strong vs Z. Lost against naniwa and slush.
For me, the dreamhack-tournament in two-three weeks will give a much better picture of the status of the skill-difference between korea and europe/usa. Better players and a better format could, I think, end up in a European victory (Admittedly, the performance of morrow and demuslim doesn't inspire confidence..)
You can speculate all you want but results speak much louder than hypotheticals. What if July and Moon played on different sides of the bracket? Maybe we could have a top 5/5 Korean podium (-.-)!!!
If IEM, Dreamhack Stockholm, GSL WC, Copenhagen Games, and now MLG Columbus aren't enough to determine the status of the skill difference, I honestly don't see how Dreamhack Summer (less than 2 weeks away yay!!) will help considering Code A dropouts dominate foreign tournaments.
Have you looked at the invite list for DH Summer? Almost the entire European scene will be represented. As far as sheer quantity of top players goes there's plenty of players in that tournament that can take games off and simply straight up beat Koreans.
His point was that you're elevating future results above current results as a basis for your argument.
It's not very sound at all. >:
Wait for DH Summer, see the foreigners stomp face, and then say, "See! Look! These guys are so awesome and I can't wait to see more!" You're jumping the gun a bit.
On June 06 2011 21:41 Cramsy wrote: Anyways, regardless of idra kind of ruining the final day for me (I still love the guy but he seriously has a few things to work on as both a professional SC2 player and a mature human being)
You ever thought about the fact that his immense game knowledge might make him leave in weird situations/all-in at some maps in some positions? No offense but, if you just listen to him cast once - he's almost always spot on about what's going to happen and the outcome of the matches, simply because he reads the game so god darn well. Also kind of silly to call him out in person in my opinion.
Even if he is mostly right he is not 100% right. By your logic, Naniwa also should not bother looking for proxy because in 95% of games his opponents are not going to cheese him.
No, Idra should not be a quitter. Maybe the games he normally quits he will only win 1 in 20 games but that 1 could just be an important match (not to mention not lose already won matches like the MMA and Huk games)
On June 06 2011 22:11 thepeonwhocould wrote: I feel like Thorzane, Naniwa and Idra are the only players who really looked capable of taking out the koreans. Thorzane vs MC was really close, Idra looked solid in his first 2 games vs MC and his first game against MMA. Naniwa looked ok vs losira and mc too imo.
Naniwa vs Losira wasn't close. Losira outplayed him completely, even on Testbug, a map he'd never played before.
Thorzain vs MC was overall 4-2 to MC, Thorzain played well but TvP is his best match by far and it's definitely MC's worst, but MC still won.
Idra was great in the 2-0 but MC had done zero preperation being told only a day before he was going and was probably pretty jag lagged. I don't want to make massive excuses but you can see why MC wasn't 100% in this game, and he later beat Idra 4-0 with a proper days rest and time to adjust to the time zones.
Sjow played a very even series vs MMA. MMA won 2-1 but every game was close. Without the extended series, Thorzain would have beaten MC 2-1 in the loser bracket. Thorzain didn't get the chance to play July or Moon and Naniwa didn't get the chance to play MMA so we can't be sure how that would have ended. The three Koreans played better than anyone else this weekend but I think the top foreigners can compete with them.
MC would not have played the same in another bo3 as he did in an extended series. Both players played to win a bo7 not a bo3. Strategies used would different. It's really stupid to say Thorzain would have won 2-1, players would have picked different maps and done all sorts of things diffferently. MC won 4-2, it's simple.
The Sjow vs MMA games were close but MMA's worst match is TvT where as it is statistically Sjow's best and a 2-1 loss is still a loss either way.
There was no way Koreans were going to 2-0 everyone, it's just not possible in Sc2. Look at Sjow/July. July is a far, far better player and showed it beyond all doubt in their series, but Sjow took a massive risk in game 1 with two port Banshee and won a game with it.
I believe this MLG was decided by match-ups. Though korea took the top three position, with a slightly different seeds and a better tournament format, the result could have been very different, I believe. I don't think the difference in skill is at all as big as you indicate, and certainly concluding it on the basis of this tournament is wrong.
MMA
MMA got somewhat lucky and the only top-player he met that wasn't a zerg was sjow. The match ended 2-1 to MMA and sjow will be kicking himself for dying to a doom-drop after having a big advantage in the last game. MMA is extremely impressive versus zerg, no doubt, but that was all he had to play.
Losira
Losira is clearly very strong against protoss, and was lucky that his strongest opponents besides MMA were protoss-players. Haypro and TLO aren't the very top of outside-korea talent in their current form.
MC
Well, this guy is amazing and it showed. But thorzaihn had him under pressure and idra beat him, and he was of course previously beat by thorzaihn. Still though, being the best protoss in the world, that's what you would expect.
July
Plays very aggressive and risky, and might be a bit overrated. At least he faltered quite had towards the end of the tournament. I agree that he convincingly beat sjow, but vs Z is sjows worst match-up by a margin. Beat sheth 2-1 , but those were his two hardest non-korea opponents.
Moon
Surprised positively, very strong vs T, beating fenix who is quite strong vs Z. Lost against naniwa and slush.
For me, the dreamhack-tournament in two-three weeks will give a much better picture of the status of the skill-difference between korea and europe/usa. Better players and a better format could, I think, end up in a European victory (Admittedly, the performance of morrow and demuslim doesn't inspire confidence..)
You can speculate all you want but results speak much louder than hypotheticals. What if July and Moon played on different sides of the bracket? Maybe we could have a top 5/5 Korean podium (-.-)!!!
If IEM, Dreamhack Stockholm, GSL WC, Copenhagen Games, and now MLG Columbus aren't enough to determine the status of the skill difference, I honestly don't see how Dreamhack Summer (less than 2 weeks away yay!!) will help considering Code A dropouts dominate foreign tournaments.
Have you looked at the invite list for DH Summer? Almost the entire European scene will be represented. As far as sheer quantity of top players goes there's plenty of players in that tournament that can take games off and simply straight up beat Koreans.
His point was that you're elevating future results above current results as a basis for your argument.
It's not very sound at all. >:
Wait for DH Summer, see the foreigners stomp face, and then say, "See! Look! These guys are so awesome and I can't wait to see more!" You're jumping the gun a bit.
I'm not predicting that the foreigners will stomp face, I honestly don't care and I'm only interested in good games, but it is ridiculous to say that MLG had the same quantity of top foreigner players and that you can make a prediction based on the MLG results as far as DH summer goes.
Also in MMA vs Idra game 1, why did MMA sac his 3rd CC?! I mean it looked intentional, because he unsieged JUST after he killed it, he surely couldnot have missed it?!
I'm the only one thinking that the only reason MMA killed his own expo was because of unusual rock placement in Testbug? It seems to me he wanted to kill the rocks at his expo via minimap while microing medivacs
EPT
