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On May 30 2011 20:45 Zinthar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 19:24 Shellshock1122 wrote:On May 30 2011 19:23 Balombas wrote:
Omg, is Line Code A or Code S? Neither. 2 Code A ro32 failure appearances. And many people will look at that and conclude that he's trash, which couldn't be further from the truth. 2 Code A Ro32 appearances means that he's successfully qualified for Code A twice, which is extremely impressive and means that he must be a really solid all around player. If I recall correctly, you have to win something like 6 consecutive series in the qualifier in order to reach Code A. True, he hadn't been terribly impressive when he got to Code A, but that's a really small sample size and you can probably chalk a lot of that up to nerves and inexperience in televised matches. Remember that a guy who's probably a top 10 player in the world, Startale Bomber, didn't manage to even qualify for Code A until March. DRG was completely unknown before GSTL, where he proceeded to tear up everyone other than MMA. San was supposed to be the worst player by far in Code S before he suddenly was "probably the best macro protoss in the world" (roughly quoting Artosis). Point is, you can't really tell based off of a small number of showings exactly how good most of these players are. The 4 players with easily the most success (NesTea, MVP, MC, & MKP) have each been dropped to the up/down matches in at least one of the past two GSL's. Line is not, and never was, as bad as people here were saying. Likewise, Jinro is MUCH better than his recent televised matches would indicate. His mechanics and micro are Code S level. He probably needs a new TvZ style, but he'll be fine in the long term.
So line is, at best, if we're optimistic, an average Code A player right now (even though he hasn't proven it at all, you're just being optimistic and saying bomber didn't either for a while), and Jinro lost to him, so the conclusion is Jinro is Code S level? Even though he got dropped to Code A and has been preforming poorly in other tournaments for a while. MVP dropped to Code a too but he then proceeded to tear through Code A andthat gom world tourney (or super tourney? i dont know the name). Jinro got bumped down to Code A, lost first round TSL, lsot first round of the Gom world tourney, lost first round of this super tourney, and lost first round to white ra in dreamhack invitationals. I'm not going to be as optimistic as you are lean every doubt on the "jinro is good" side of the argument. He hasn't been winning and until he starts beating some top players again I don't think hes good enough to be considered a Code S player.
Also bomber was known to be a good player before his Code A run. DongRaeGu was also a known player. He was at the top 5 of the korean ladder for a while and everyone acknowledged him as a really skilled Zerg, he was just never able to translate it into a good live preformance.
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Hrm i get back from a nice long weekend to see this?
Jinro has been disappointing, I can't see TL continuing to stage their players in korea if this trend continues the way it has been.
It really seems like their play is caught in a downward spiral. Is the competition gap between foreigners and Koreans finally starting to show? I mean these foreigners are constantly getting invited affirmative-action style and are for the most part getting walked over by Koreans who earned there spot from the bottom up. (with the recent exception of Huk)
If foreign teams aren't more careful about the level of players they send to compete and represent the non korean competition interest could fall..
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On May 31 2011 10:42 starcraft2rush wrote:
Hrm i get back from a nice long weekend to see this?
Jinro has been disappointing, I can't see TL continuing to stage their players in korea if this trend continues the way it has been.
It really seems like their play is caught in a downward spiral. Is the competition gap between foreigners and Koreans finally starting to show? I mean these foreigners are constantly getting invited affirmative-action style and are for the most part getting walked over by Koreans who earned there spot from the bottom up. (with the recent exception of Huk)
If foreign teams aren't more careful about the level of players they send to compete and represent the non korean competition interest could fall..
Given the only TLers in there are Huk and Jinro and Huk is doing well that's not much of a downwards trend.
Huk is in fact proving that foreigners can do decently in the GSL and maybe some of FXO will do the same. Right now I think Jinro just hasn't performed well, other foreigners are doing much better against Koreans in NASL even though they aren't necessarily living in Korea (and consequently not participating in GSL).
A few examples of that would be Sen, Idra, Thorzain, Morrow, Strelok, Kiwikaki ... all of which are holding their own against the likes of Rainbow, Boxer, July and MC.
Not to say foreigners are going to suddenly overwhelm GSL but Jinro's recent slump is not indicative of any "trend" in foreigners or TL.
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Wow am I seeing this correctly. 104 pages and the games don't even start for about 7 hours?
Edit: Lol okay nvm.
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Just stop, IdrA is the only foreigner who did not have a true slumping time in StarCraft 2 and has a reputable status as a foreign progamer. Thorzain: lol about 40 days = good foreigner! Sen- Do well in a few foreign tournaments = compete @ korea level constantly.
Are you kidding me? Just because the foreigners take a few series away doe snot mean they can constantly keep that, slumps are showing so. At least IdrA can probably get into Code S, and at least maintain Code A, would you say Thorzain is able to do the same if he moved to Korea?
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Anyone know if there are interviews with the winners yet?
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Jinro really looks burnt out watching Jinro's play of recent times.
Also, sure you can do the same strategy on ladder and beat nerds who don't know you but in competitive matches they will sure to know your style if you do the same thing every time.
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People need to stop quibbling over whether or not Line is good.
We watched the games today, and the result wasn't due to Line, it was due to Jinro.
I'm ofc a big Jinro fan, and will not make any kind of general statements about him based on these games, but his performance in this BO3, for whatever reason, was really, really poor.
Game 1 was atrocious, letting his reactor die to 4 lings? Pushing with no stim and just getting wiped? It didn't even look close once. Whatever the reason, Jinro played far, far below his best in these games.
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On May 31 2011 11:00 Sixes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 10:42 starcraft2rush wrote:
Hrm i get back from a nice long weekend to see this?
Jinro has been disappointing, I can't see TL continuing to stage their players in korea if this trend continues the way it has been.
It really seems like their play is caught in a downward spiral. Is the competition gap between foreigners and Koreans finally starting to show? I mean these foreigners are constantly getting invited affirmative-action style and are for the most part getting walked over by Koreans who earned there spot from the bottom up. (with the recent exception of Huk)
If foreign teams aren't more careful about the level of players they send to compete and represent the non korean competition interest could fall..
Given the only TLers in there are Huk and Jinro and Huk is doing well that's not much of a downwards trend. Huk is in fact proving that foreigners can do decently in the GSL and maybe some of FXO will do the same. Right now I think Jinro just hasn't performed well, other foreigners are doing much better against Koreans in NASL even though they aren't necessarily living in Korea (and consequently not participating in GSL). A few examples of that would be Sen, Idra, Thorzain, Morrow, Strelok, Kiwikaki ... all of which are holding their own against the likes of Rainbow, Boxer, July and MC. Not to say foreigners are going to suddenly overwhelm GSL but Jinro's recent slump is not indicative of any "trend" in foreigners or TL.
The Nasl, TSL, and any other "online" tournaments are not very good indicators of skill due to issues with latency. I'm not doubting any foreigners abilities but until we have an established lan, online results are pretty much negated. I think any foreigner can take a few games or possibly a few series on any given day, but consistency is the main issue here and I don't think any foreigner has shown great consistency vs the korean scene just yet.
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On May 31 2011 12:31 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 11:00 Sixes wrote:On May 31 2011 10:42 starcraft2rush wrote:
Hrm i get back from a nice long weekend to see this?
Jinro has been disappointing, I can't see TL continuing to stage their players in korea if this trend continues the way it has been.
It really seems like their play is caught in a downward spiral. Is the competition gap between foreigners and Koreans finally starting to show? I mean these foreigners are constantly getting invited affirmative-action style and are for the most part getting walked over by Koreans who earned there spot from the bottom up. (with the recent exception of Huk)
If foreign teams aren't more careful about the level of players they send to compete and represent the non korean competition interest could fall..
Given the only TLers in there are Huk and Jinro and Huk is doing well that's not much of a downwards trend. Huk is in fact proving that foreigners can do decently in the GSL and maybe some of FXO will do the same. Right now I think Jinro just hasn't performed well, other foreigners are doing much better against Koreans in NASL even though they aren't necessarily living in Korea (and consequently not participating in GSL). A few examples of that would be Sen, Idra, Thorzain, Morrow, Strelok, Kiwikaki ... all of which are holding their own against the likes of Rainbow, Boxer, July and MC. Not to say foreigners are going to suddenly overwhelm GSL but Jinro's recent slump is not indicative of any "trend" in foreigners or TL. The Nasl, TSL, and any other "online" tournaments are not very good indicators of skill due to issues with latency. I'm not doubting any foreigners abilities but until we have an established lan, online results are pretty much negated. I think any foreigner can take a few games or possibly a few series on any given day, but consistency is the main issue here and I don't think any foreigner has shown great consistency vs the korean scene just yet.
Yea, that's just how starcraft 2 works. Anyone can take a game off anyone in a given time. I'm really excited for MLG though. It's gonna be really interesting seeing solid Korean players go against top foreigners in an environment where latency isn't a factor.
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On May 31 2011 12:41 TheSubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 12:31 rysecake wrote:On May 31 2011 11:00 Sixes wrote:On May 31 2011 10:42 starcraft2rush wrote:
Hrm i get back from a nice long weekend to see this?
Jinro has been disappointing, I can't see TL continuing to stage their players in korea if this trend continues the way it has been.
It really seems like their play is caught in a downward spiral. Is the competition gap between foreigners and Koreans finally starting to show? I mean these foreigners are constantly getting invited affirmative-action style and are for the most part getting walked over by Koreans who earned there spot from the bottom up. (with the recent exception of Huk)
If foreign teams aren't more careful about the level of players they send to compete and represent the non korean competition interest could fall..
Given the only TLers in there are Huk and Jinro and Huk is doing well that's not much of a downwards trend. Huk is in fact proving that foreigners can do decently in the GSL and maybe some of FXO will do the same. Right now I think Jinro just hasn't performed well, other foreigners are doing much better against Koreans in NASL even though they aren't necessarily living in Korea (and consequently not participating in GSL). A few examples of that would be Sen, Idra, Thorzain, Morrow, Strelok, Kiwikaki ... all of which are holding their own against the likes of Rainbow, Boxer, July and MC. Not to say foreigners are going to suddenly overwhelm GSL but Jinro's recent slump is not indicative of any "trend" in foreigners or TL. The Nasl, TSL, and any other "online" tournaments are not very good indicators of skill due to issues with latency. I'm not doubting any foreigners abilities but until we have an established lan, online results are pretty much negated. I think any foreigner can take a few games or possibly a few series on any given day, but consistency is the main issue here and I don't think any foreigner has shown great consistency vs the korean scene just yet. Yea, that's just how starcraft 2 works. Anyone can take a game off anyone in a given time. I'm really excited for MLG though. It's gonna be really interesting seeing solid Korean players go against top foreigners in an environment where latency isn't a factor.
Latency was a factor in the last MLG though 
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My liquipoints will be rooting for jinro no matter how hard the slump. A true sports fan will never give up hope. Just ask cubs fans.
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Damn, as soon as Tastosis was saying in the intro that Line was going to be one of Jinro's easiest matches I felt like he was jinxed from that point. Cheering for Jinro in those two GSL's were my favorite times watching, wish he could return to his glory. Time to watch the other matches..
2nd match not worth watching.
3rd match like recommended says, game 2 is good.
NaDa played awesome in his match, and on a sidenote Tasteless has made some nicknames stick, some good some bad but the renaissance nerd one is just bad. NaDa already has a baller nickname.
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Imagine if Ogs really hire Jinro for GSTL....
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On May 31 2011 12:06 Subversion wrote:
People need to stop quibbling over whether or not Line is good.
We watched the games today, and the result wasn't due to Line, it was due to Jinro.
I'm ofc a big Jinro fan, and will not make any kind of general statements about him based on these games, but his performance in this BO3, for whatever reason, was really, really poor.
Game 1 was atrocious, letting his reactor die to 4 lings? Pushing with no stim and just getting wiped? It didn't even look close once. Whatever the reason, Jinro played far, far below his best in these games.
This. I think it's rather funny to see how a player who was previously considered pretty much nobody (and who would still be considered nobody, and absolutely nothing special had Jinro won) to suddenly be praised by quite a few people about how damn good he is (seeing the phrase "top zerg" used, etc.), the obvious implication being that Jinro lost because his opponent was so good.
No - Jinro lost because he just doesn't seem to be playing like himself lately. It makes me sad because I want to see him do well, but I feel like we're trying to make ourselves mix up the causes for the results here (not to say that Line is bad, but people are hyping him a little too much as a result of Jinro's loss). I hope that he gets back on track soon - I remember back around the time of his second semifinals run - I felt like he could have beaten almost anyone.
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Well I'm glad Nada made it through, but it sucks that Coca didn't get an easier first opponent... but then again that's just how the brackets have been.
But seriously, why doesn't Nada just quit school and do sc2 full time. Clearly based off the results he has what it takes to be at the very top if he had more time to dedicate... and I'm sure he could get a good esports job when he retires, or AT THE LEAST go back to school afterwards....... I just don't get it. 
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On May 30 2011 20:49 Fionn wrote:Poll: Who you excited to watch on Day 8? (Last day of Ro64)SC (42) 42% Implying I'm watching tomorrow (22) 22% Make (13) 13% Zenio (11) 11% Top (4) 4% Choya (4) 4% Hyperdub (2) 2% August (1) 1% Noblesse (1) 1% 100 total votes Your vote: Who you excited to watch on Day 8? (Last day of Ro64) (Vote): August
(Vote): Top
(Vote): Choya
(Vote): Zenio
(Vote): Noblesse
(Vote): Hyperdub
(Vote): Make
(Vote): SC
(Vote): Implying I'm watching tomorrow
finally...... I can play some freaking Starcraft tonight :D
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Damn... I went back to read some of this thread when Jinro was playing... some of you guys are really fucking harsh... wtf. He is a great member of this site who actually posts and gives us some insight, but right when he starts having some losses people are saying how he sucks and how he should leave Korea. I don't know why everyone has to be such assholes to be honest; I'm sure he is reading at least some of it and feeling like shit when all the fans he had on here are saying those kinds of things.
It just really sucks because he has so much attention on him... and the GSL format really makes it look worse. Instead of playing in various tournaments and possibly doing well against some easier opponents, he is playing against very good players all the time (line might be the only exception, but he is clearly not bad) and you can't expect him to constantly win. That being said yes he is in a bit of a slump, but I honestly don't understand how people can just be such dicks here. Yes it is only the internet, but you could show a bit of respect to another human being who has provided us amazing games in the past.
I guess it's just because everyone is behind their monitor so they don't have to worry about what they say.
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Totally agree with the post above. I don't understand why people here feel they're qualified to chew out a player who understands the game and what it's like to be a pro SC2 player far better than anyone on this forum (aside from the few pros here, obviously).
Sure, Jinro is not at the top of his game, but that doesn't mean he's lacking the skill to seriously compete at Code S. And I'm still not sure you can make too much of his recent matches because the sample size is still absurdly small and even players who are widely regarded as among the best in the world can lose 2-0 to someone they would beat 75% of the time.
Further, there's really a strong rock-paper-scissor aspect to the game. Often the more skilled player finds a way to overcome a disadvantage resulting from coming up on the losing end of the rock-paper-scissor opener, but often they don't.
With Jinro, I think his TvT winrate is much higher than his other matchups, and he's probably among the best TvTers in the world. My point about his mechanics being at Code S level is simply from watching his play often. People are inclined to be completely result-oriented, without looking deeper into what caused the result.
Tastosis have really perpetuated that result-oriented view in the worst way. SuperNova beat a few Protosses in Code A in March and suddenly he had "probably the best TvP in the world." They said San was easily the worst player in Code S. Every time someone is winning a match, he's "totally outclassing [his opponent]." It's BS rhetoric, and I often wonder whether Artosis & Tasteless actually understand the root of that word. Remember that the best players in SC2 have ladder win rates that are remarkably close to 50%. NesTea is the top Zerg in the Korean ladder and wins 60% of his games, and his average competition on the ladder is probably slightly worse than who he encounters in GSL matches.
People want to prove too much out of a few tournament matches.
Anyway, Jinro seems like a great guy, and he's still in the GSL and I expect we'll see strong performances from him in the future. You'll all be eating crow when he's in the up/down matches after the next GSL season proper.
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EPT
