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On May 27 2011 12:50 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 12:46 Mordiford wrote:On May 27 2011 12:39 jdseemoreglass wrote:On May 27 2011 12:36 Heavenly wrote:On May 27 2011 12:33 jdseemoreglass wrote:
So is it safe to say that Protoss can force Zerg to be in the position of having to basically all in and try to end the game quickly now? I mean that seems like the only option. Is all-in drop play simply the only option? So then it's a matter of how well protoss can defend an all in attack?
I mean I hear mrbitter criticizing momans passivity and this is the only way I can interpret what he is saying. What are the other options left to Zerg against a defensive macroing toss? Don't max out on roaches and hydras versus an army that costs twice as much? Actually attack when you see your opponent throwing up a third when he has four gates? He criticized Moman's passivity because he sat there and let Cruncher go to four base protoss versus four base zerg before taking a couple more useless bases. But my point is, you cannot attack into a protoss with colossi and forcefields. So how does Zerg attack. Drops right? You could say nydus, but it's basically the same thing as drops, except more effective. You cannot trade effectively into a choke against a defensive protoss, so still the only option I can think of is all in drop play. Someone said mutas but all it takes is a couple cannons and blink to shut that down. You can not go Roach/Hydra and then wait for the Protoss to get 200/200 with Colossi and forcefields. Moman got to a point where he would have had to drop or Nydus but if he had attacked with burrow/tunneling claws he could have hit before that first Colossus got out for Cruncher. Moman just played that really passively with an army that's good to be aggressive with. He let the Protoss split the map really easily, he left him get his third base for free entirely. It's like Terran's standard composition going up against Brood Lord/Corruptor/Infestor at 200/200... Does it mean all they can do is all in against Zerg? Absolutely not, you can do tons of stuff to not let them get to that point while you have a stronger mid-game composition. You can't sit on a good mid-game composition and then fight their stronger more cost effective composition... That's basically what Moman did with his composition, strong to put on pressure with, then he just sat back and let Cruncher get equal bases with him... He got his third completely uncontested. So please explain this to me a little more thoroughly here... You say if a Zerg goes roach/hydra, then they need to pressure. And obviously the only way to pressure on a choke map against colossi + sentry is to drop, which is pretty all in. Which was my original statement, by the way. So let's consider the other options... He doesn't go roach/hydra. What does he go then? Lings? lol no. Infestors? That will resign you to passivity as well. Mutas? Is mutas the only alternative? Or should zerg skip a mid-game army and rush to T3, hoping Protoss doesn't decide to attack?
I concede, you are correct, zerg has never won a game without allinning. And upgrading drop and overlord speed is all-in.
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On May 27 2011 12:49 Kentakky wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 12:37 Dexington wrote:On May 27 2011 12:34 Xxavi wrote:
Shut it, Cruncher haters=Idra fanboys =)
It isn't like Idra is a creative player who comes up with new strategies. He is a freaking study cow that you see in every college, will study the book all the time, with little brain. Not to say Cruncher is anything special, but all this Cruncher hate and Idra love is over the top.
My God, how can words of a player can change perspective of so many people. Can you read the last few pages? Cruncher haters = people who like exciting games. Cruncher has yet to be involved in one. Then you sir, have missed out on a show series called the "V". Just look at him demolishing that poor scrub EGLzGaMeR with his neat builds. specially the one with the phoenix opening, haven't seen someone get that crunched from a phoenix opening. Also the high templar game was quite slick in the way he got to HTs. but seriously I really don't understand the hate, if he's "boring" to watch then don't watch ffs. Cruncher is also like Americas best Wc3 player before the game died so maybe try and encourage him and you might actually have another really good American sc2 player, since you seem to be lacking those.now someone will respond with who cares what nation someone is from I just want good games yaddayaddayadda then the same should still apply encourage players putting time and effort into this game, don't hate on them unless they really deserve it like CombatEx/cheaters etc...
This. FFS, we have Idra...and that's sorta it. I think Tyler could be good if he dedicated more time, but I don't think he'll be able to. Incontrol isn't bad or anything but has a shitton of other stuff going on. He's as much an ambassador for the game as he is a player. We NEED cruncher, even though Idra hates him irrationally.
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On May 27 2011 12:51 SC2Joker wrote:
whats up with blizzard always trolling nasl... I wonder if they're allowed to contact you for purely trolling reasons. if so its not very professional.
? Elaborate ?
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On May 27 2011 12:50 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 12:46 Mordiford wrote:On May 27 2011 12:39 jdseemoreglass wrote:On May 27 2011 12:36 Heavenly wrote:On May 27 2011 12:33 jdseemoreglass wrote:
So is it safe to say that Protoss can force Zerg to be in the position of having to basically all in and try to end the game quickly now? I mean that seems like the only option. Is all-in drop play simply the only option? So then it's a matter of how well protoss can defend an all in attack?
I mean I hear mrbitter criticizing momans passivity and this is the only way I can interpret what he is saying. What are the other options left to Zerg against a defensive macroing toss? Don't max out on roaches and hydras versus an army that costs twice as much? Actually attack when you see your opponent throwing up a third when he has four gates? He criticized Moman's passivity because he sat there and let Cruncher go to four base protoss versus four base zerg before taking a couple more useless bases. But my point is, you cannot attack into a protoss with colossi and forcefields. So how does Zerg attack. Drops right? You could say nydus, but it's basically the same thing as drops, except more effective. You cannot trade effectively into a choke against a defensive protoss, so still the only option I can think of is all in drop play. Someone said mutas but all it takes is a couple cannons and blink to shut that down. You can not go Roach/Hydra and then wait for the Protoss to get 200/200 with Colossi and forcefields. Moman got to a point where he would have had to drop or Nydus but if he had attacked with burrow/tunneling claws he could have hit before that first Colossus got out for Cruncher. Moman just played that really passively with an army that's good to be aggressive with. He let the Protoss split the map really easily, he left him get his third base for free entirely. It's like Terran's standard composition going up against Brood Lord/Corruptor/Infestor at 200/200... Does it mean all they can do is all in against Zerg? Absolutely not, you can do tons of stuff to not let them get to that point while you have a stronger mid-game composition. You can't sit on a good mid-game composition and then fight their stronger more cost effective composition... That's basically what Moman did with his composition, strong to put on pressure with, then he just sat back and let Cruncher get equal bases with him... He got his third completely uncontested. So please explain this to me a little more thoroughly here... You say if a Zerg goes roach/hydra, then they need to pressure. And obviously the only way to pressure on a choke map against colossi + sentry is to drop, which is pretty all in. Which was my original statement, by the way. So let's consider the other options... He doesn't go roach/hydra. What does he go then? Lings? lol no. Infestors? That will resign you to passivity as well. Mutas? Is mutas the only alternative? Or should zerg skip a mid-game army and rush to T3, hoping Protoss doesn't decide to attack?
You can do baneling drops, Infestors with Brood Lords if you want to be passive, it'd at least give you a better shot going into that end game. With roaches with burrow/tunneling claws, he could have pressured that army a number of times, even when those two Immortals were out, he probably could have made it work but he waited so fucking long...
He did nothing, if you're not going to pressure, why even bother going for an early-mid pressure composition, keeping that composition going into late game...
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On May 27 2011 12:50 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 12:46 Mordiford wrote:On May 27 2011 12:39 jdseemoreglass wrote:On May 27 2011 12:36 Heavenly wrote:On May 27 2011 12:33 jdseemoreglass wrote:
So is it safe to say that Protoss can force Zerg to be in the position of having to basically all in and try to end the game quickly now? I mean that seems like the only option. Is all-in drop play simply the only option? So then it's a matter of how well protoss can defend an all in attack?
I mean I hear mrbitter criticizing momans passivity and this is the only way I can interpret what he is saying. What are the other options left to Zerg against a defensive macroing toss? Don't max out on roaches and hydras versus an army that costs twice as much? Actually attack when you see your opponent throwing up a third when he has four gates? He criticized Moman's passivity because he sat there and let Cruncher go to four base protoss versus four base zerg before taking a couple more useless bases. But my point is, you cannot attack into a protoss with colossi and forcefields. So how does Zerg attack. Drops right? You could say nydus, but it's basically the same thing as drops, except more effective. You cannot trade effectively into a choke against a defensive protoss, so still the only option I can think of is all in drop play. Someone said mutas but all it takes is a couple cannons and blink to shut that down. You can not go Roach/Hydra and then wait for the Protoss to get 200/200 with Colossi and forcefields. Moman got to a point where he would have had to drop or Nydus but if he had attacked with burrow/tunneling claws he could have hit before that first Colossus got out for Cruncher. Moman just played that really passively with an army that's good to be aggressive with. He let the Protoss split the map really easily, he left him get his third base for free entirely. It's like Terran's standard composition going up against Brood Lord/Corruptor/Infestor at 200/200... Does it mean all they can do is all in against Zerg? Absolutely not, you can do tons of stuff to not let them get to that point while you have a stronger mid-game composition. You can't sit on a good mid-game composition and then fight their stronger more cost effective composition... That's basically what Moman did with his composition, strong to put on pressure with, then he just sat back and let Cruncher get equal bases with him... He got his third completely uncontested. So please explain this to me a little more thoroughly here... You say if a Zerg goes roach/hydra, then they need to pressure. And obviously the only way to pressure on a choke map against colossi + sentry is to drop, which is pretty all in. Which was my original statement, by the way. So let's consider the other options... He doesn't go roach/hydra. What does he go then? Lings? lol no. Infestors? That will resign you to passivity as well. Mutas? Is mutas the only alternative? Or should zerg skip a mid-game army and rush to T3, hoping Protoss doesn't decide to attack?
Baneling/Ling? Baneling/Roach? Aggressive Roach/Infestor? That is what virtually every other Zerg who is actually winning is doing
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July macro so good, has so many drones even with the ling aggression.
July hwaiting!!! EAT HIMMMMM
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On May 27 2011 12:41 garlicface wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 12:39 L3g3nd_ wrote:
that micro! holy shit hes good
Anyone who denies that that was beautiful by CrunCher is a troll. Can you stop being overzealous? You're not netting CrunCher any respect from people with the things you are saying.
Absolutely agree here. The plastic enthusiasm followed by denouncing people who don't follow your same fanaticism is not helping.
I have nothing against cruncher, nor am I an idra fan nor a boy (never even saw those TSL matches), but he simply looks unimpressive. Others have already said this: his APM is low, and his play looks sedantary enough that diamond/masters players could replicate it (admittably not with the same level of success).
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ok this is weird
tt1 literally puts his nexus one hex off almost every time, from watching his stream and several tourny games.
is there something im missing? is it more efficient? maybe he does it to give him the mindset of "I need to try hard since I gave him an advantage".
dunno
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Not really a big fan of Cruncher, but he played good. And to all the people who say Forcefields are easy, try putting them down perfectly under pressure from an attack by the opponent's army. One small hole in the wall and you're dead. Seriously, most of the people here who say that have obviously never tried putting down FFs during a real engagement.
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On May 27 2011 12:50 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 12:46 Mordiford wrote:On May 27 2011 12:39 jdseemoreglass wrote:On May 27 2011 12:36 Heavenly wrote:On May 27 2011 12:33 jdseemoreglass wrote:
So is it safe to say that Protoss can force Zerg to be in the position of having to basically all in and try to end the game quickly now? I mean that seems like the only option. Is all-in drop play simply the only option? So then it's a matter of how well protoss can defend an all in attack?
I mean I hear mrbitter criticizing momans passivity and this is the only way I can interpret what he is saying. What are the other options left to Zerg against a defensive macroing toss? Don't max out on roaches and hydras versus an army that costs twice as much? Actually attack when you see your opponent throwing up a third when he has four gates? He criticized Moman's passivity because he sat there and let Cruncher go to four base protoss versus four base zerg before taking a couple more useless bases. But my point is, you cannot attack into a protoss with colossi and forcefields. So how does Zerg attack. Drops right? You could say nydus, but it's basically the same thing as drops, except more effective. You cannot trade effectively into a choke against a defensive protoss, so still the only option I can think of is all in drop play. Someone said mutas but all it takes is a couple cannons and blink to shut that down. You can not go Roach/Hydra and then wait for the Protoss to get 200/200 with Colossi and forcefields. Moman got to a point where he would have had to drop or Nydus but if he had attacked with burrow/tunneling claws he could have hit before that first Colossus got out for Cruncher. Moman just played that really passively with an army that's good to be aggressive with. He let the Protoss split the map really easily, he left him get his third base for free entirely. It's like Terran's standard composition going up against Brood Lord/Corruptor/Infestor at 200/200... Does it mean all they can do is all in against Zerg? Absolutely not, you can do tons of stuff to not let them get to that point while you have a stronger mid-game composition. You can't sit on a good mid-game composition and then fight their stronger more cost effective composition... That's basically what Moman did with his composition, strong to put on pressure with, then he just sat back and let Cruncher get equal bases with him... He got his third completely uncontested. So please explain this to me a little more thoroughly here... You say if a Zerg goes roach/hydra, then they need to pressure. And obviously the only way to pressure on a choke map against colossi + sentry is to drop, which is pretty all in. Which was my original statement, by the way. So let's consider the other options... He doesn't go roach/hydra. What does he go then? Lings? lol no. Infestors? That will resign you to passivity as well. Mutas? Is mutas the only alternative? Or should zerg skip a mid-game army and rush to T3, hoping Protoss doesn't decide to attack?
Baneling drops is one of the ways people have been doing it, and they don't want to be all-in at all and can be supremely devastating to both economies and to the deathball itself, even if it's mostly stalker, they by-pass the forcefields, they avoid getting hit by colossus, and they're a great way to make better use of lings, they also play into the situations where colossus are most effective, in chokes.
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these mass gateways could be a bad idea considering july saw that he didn't have a robo
let's find out!
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Good ol' 7 gate robo forge, haha i really Love TTOne, but i think July is going to be able to hold this one.
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On May 27 2011 12:54 Mios wrote:
ok this is weird
tt1 literally puts his nexus one hex off almost every time, from watching his stream and several tourny games.
is there something im missing? is it more efficient? maybe he does it to give him the mindset of "I need to try hard since I gave him an advantage".
dunno
Are you sure it's off? It looks okay to me.
If it IS off, it might be to close off the gap between the ramp and the nexus without having to put an extra building there.
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7 rax protoss ftw gretorp
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"it's going to be a 7 barracks timing push"
... you sure about that gretorp?
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United States15275 Posts
Yawn, 7 gate pushes coming from TT1. 5/6/7gate timing pushes are pretty typical from TT1.
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damn barely any creep spread for July
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On May 27 2011 12:55 Kommander wrote:
Not really a big fan of Cruncher, but he played good. And to all the people who say Forcefields are easy, try putting them down perfectly under pressure from an attack by the opponent's army. One small hole in the wall and you're dead. Seriously, most of the people here who say that have obviously never tried putting down FFs during a real engagement.
What I will concede to CrunCher is that his FFs are shaped better than most other Ps. He almost always goes for ring/donut traps, whereas other Ps do multiple lines... or what TT1 just did.
+ The only other P that FFs like that consistently, off the top of my head at least, is MC.
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EPT
