EPTWCG 2011 Grand Finals - Page 380
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Suohhen
United States59 Posts
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ePBuckets
Canada207 Posts
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wklbishop
United States1286 Posts
On December 10 2011 23:35 Qaatar wrote: MVP's TvP games are usually not any good. Honestly, while his TvT is pretty much the only TvT that I watch, and his TvZ is amazing, there are probably 15 Terrans out there who play more entertaining and better TvP's. Like who? Entertaining yes, but better? Tell me the names of those 15 terrans... because I honestly can't think of many good TvP players. Honestly... Bomber's macro TvP is failing these days. Jjakji's TvP is good, but not that different from MVP's from what I've seen (mix of contains and macro bio games). Polt's TvP has yet to be seen against the new protoss styles in official matches. Puma? Highly doubt that still. Seriously, there just aren't many stellar TvP players these days. | ||
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Nakama
Germany584 Posts
THX Dude | ||
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AxionSteel
United States7754 Posts
 Mvp did win 3 games in a row vs MC at MLG then 2-0'd HerO immediately after, he's still good at it, just not as impressive to watch as in his other matchups as it doesn't really suit his style imo. His bio/ghost control probably isn't as nice on the eye as PuMa's, but his play is probably equally effective with his variety of 1-1-1's/2 base contains/macro styles. | ||
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Suohhen
United States59 Posts
On December 10 2011 23:36 wklbishop wrote: Huh? MVP was a bit ahead. Maybe not a big a lead you're talking of, but MVP was ahead with greater and more cost efficient supply and a third base running up faster. And if MVP has a lead, there's no way you can out-macro the guy... Yes his third was slightly later, but he was slipping in macro which is why his lead was closed. I am not saying he wasn't able to get things together when the aggression settled down, but he made some very bad decisions at the end of his aggression that let that gap be closed. And I don't think it was a bad idea for Kas to attack there, I thought it was a bad attack, in other words on that map with that open low ground you have to expect that a Terran will try and siege up there and helicopter and MVP did. Kas needed to either put some pressure on the third to draw the army over, or simply use the fact that MVP was back at his base to siege up in a position to put on some sort of contain. Regardless MVP has made a lot of bad macro decisions in the games I have seen and he is by no means bulletproof. And again the point was that the game wasn't one sided, it should have been a build order loss for Kas yet he held on and that was incredibly impressive to watch. | ||
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zyzq
United States3123 Posts
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AmICool
Bulgaria15 Posts
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Qaatar
1409 Posts
On December 10 2011 23:40 wklbishop wrote: Like who? Entertaining yes, but better? Tell me the names of those 15 terrans... because I honestly can't think of many good TvP players. Honestly... Bomber's macro TvP is failing these days. Jjakji's TvP is good, but not that different from MVP's from what I've seen (mix of contains and macro bio games). Polt's TvP has yet to be seen against the new protoss styles in official matches. Puma? Highly doubt that still. Seriously, there just aren't many stellar TvP players these days. All of the players you just named have more solid TvP than MVP in my opinion. Sure, relative to their other matchups, the play from most Terrans these days against P just aren't that good, but that doesn't mean that one can't tell the difference between mediocre TvP and bad TvP. sC, Taeja, Gumiho, asd, Keen, and Alive also have just as good if not better TvP's. Perhaps 15 is pushing it, but I'd still say at least 10. Puma's TvP is doubtfully better? He openly states that his TvP is his best matchup. If you think MVP's TvP is better than Puma's, then I can't even imagine your opinion of Puma's TvT/vZ, because MVP's TvT and TvZ are around 10x better than his TvP. | ||
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JinDesu
United States3990 Posts
On December 10 2011 23:51 Qaatar wrote: All of the players you just named have more solid TvP than MVP in my opinion. Sure, relative to their other matchups, the play from most Terrans these days against P just aren't that good, but that doesn't mean that one can't tell the difference between mediocre TvP and bad TvP. sC, Taeja, Gumiho, asd, Keen, and Alive also have just as good if not better TvP's. Perhaps 15 is pushing it, but I'd still say at least 10. Puma's TvP is doubtfully better? He openly states that his TvP is his best matchup. If you think MVP's TvP is better than Puma's, then I can't even imagine your opinion of Puma's TvT/vZ, because MVP's TvT and TvZ are around 10x better than his TvP. In consideration, Puma says that mainly because of his "indestructible 1-1-1". | ||
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aintz
Canada5624 Posts
On December 10 2011 23:51 Qaatar wrote: All of the players you just named have more solid TvP than MVP in my opinion. Sure, relative to their other matchups, the play from most Terrans these days against P just aren't that good, but that doesn't mean that one can't tell the difference between mediocre TvP and bad TvP. sC, Taeja, Gumiho, asd, Keen, and Alive also have just as good if not better TvP's. Perhaps 15 is pushing it, but I'd still say at least 10. Puma's TvP is doubtfully better? He openly states that his TvP is his best matchup. If you think MVP's TvP is better than Puma's, then I can't even imagine your opinion of Puma's TvT/vZ, because MVP's TvT and TvZ are around 10x better than his TvP. keep reducing that number, sooner or later you'll get it to the right spot. everyone tvp is changing because the game keeps changing. | ||
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wklbishop
United States1286 Posts
On December 10 2011 23:46 Suohhen wrote: Yes his third was slightly later, but he was slipping in macro which is why his lead was closed. I am not saying he wasn't able to get things together when the aggression settled down, but he made some very bad decisions at the end of his aggression that let that gap be closed. And I don't think it was a bad idea for Kas to attack there, I thought it was a bad attack, in other words on that map with that open low ground you have to expect that a Terran will try and siege up there and helicopter and MVP did. Kas needed to either put some pressure on the third to draw the army over, or simply use the fact that MVP was back at his base to siege up in a position to put on some sort of contain. Regardless MVP has made a lot of bad macro decisions in the games I have seen and he is by no means bulletproof. And again the point was that the game wasn't one sided, it should have been a build order loss for Kas yet he held on and that was incredibly impressive to watch. It was an impressive hold yes. But what I'm trying to point out is that supplies lie because MVP's army was more cost-efficient and it was a mech army which just cost more per supply and is slower to get out so you can't just look at the supply. | ||
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Bio-Leera
United States65 Posts
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wklbishop
United States1286 Posts
On December 10 2011 23:51 Qaatar wrote: All of the players you just named have more solid TvP than MVP in my opinion. Sure, relative to their other matchups, the play from most Terrans these days against P just aren't that good, but that doesn't mean that one can't tell the difference between mediocre TvP and bad TvP. sC, Taeja, Gumiho, asd, Keen, and Alive also have just as good if not better TvP's. Perhaps 15 is pushing it, but I'd still say at least 10. Puma's TvP is doubtfully better? He openly states that his TvP is his best matchup. If you think MVP's TvP is better than Puma's, then I can't even imagine your opinion of Puma's TvT/vZ, because MVP's TvT and TvZ are around 10x better than his TvP. I would continue to argue with you, but the fact remains that the play from most terrans these days against P just aren't that good so there really isn't anyone that stands out whom we can use as an example decisively to argue either way without it descending into an yes/no argument. So I'll just agree to disagree until I see more TvP getting figured out or at least see more games (due to lack of games mainly). | ||
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ElephantBaby
United States1365 Posts
On December 11 2011 00:04 Bio-Leera wrote: did MVP beat kas?, liquipedia is saying the game is in progress or something Yes, he did. 2-0 | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33723 Posts
On December 10 2011 23:40 wklbishop wrote: Like who? Entertaining yes, but better? Tell me the names of those 15 terrans... because I honestly can't think of many good TvP players. Honestly... Bomber's macro TvP is failing these days. Jjakji's TvP is good, but not that different from MVP's from what I've seen (mix of contains and macro bio games). Polt's TvP has yet to be seen against the new protoss styles in official matches. Puma? Highly doubt that still. Seriously, there just aren't many stellar TvP players these days. I think Puma's TvP is better... If he'd just stop chain-supply blocking himself. | ||
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Derez
Netherlands6068 Posts
On December 10 2011 23:54 JinDesu wrote: In consideration, Puma says that mainly because of his "indestructible 1-1-1". Not to mention being able to show off his TvP's on older maps, on most of which you can hit way stronger timings then on the GSL ones. TvP as a matchup is just very, very unstable compared to TvT and TvZ. There is not a single terran with a truly strong, solid TvP at the moment. MVP to take the tourney anyhow tho. | ||
Poopi
France13023 Posts
On December 11 2011 00:21 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I think Puma's TvP is better... If he'd just stop chain-supply blocking himself. Why does he queue up so much by the way? | ||
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TumNarDok
Germany854 Posts
Main Stage 10:00 Asphalt 6 Final SOFt (Brazil) vs IPE-Dark (Chinese Taipei) 10:30 CrossFire Final Liaoning_Dongjia (China) vs HAMMERTIME (USA) 12:00 Tekken 6 Final dejavu (Korea) vs NOBI (Japan) 12:30 Counter-Strike Final SK-Gaming (Sweden) vs Again (Poland) 14:00 StarCraft II Final IM_Mvp (Korea) vs iG.XiGua (China) 15:00 League of Legends Final Gameburg (Poland) vs CDE (USA) 16:30 FIFA 11 Final hom3r (Poland) vs deto (Germany) Second Stage 11:00 WarCraft 3 3rd Place wx.hawk (Russia) vs EG.FLY100% (China) 12:30 Tekken 6 Producer Speech 13:00 League of Legends 3rd Place Counter-Logic (Canada) vs Jerome_NEGGRET (France) 15:30 FIFA Online Disabled Tournament (no info on the time of the 3rd place match Kas vs Titan -maybe someone on the venue can help out ) | ||
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Raimu
United Kingdom79 Posts
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