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On April 06 2011 11:24 Powerfoe wrote:
MarineKing seems to be crying after every game. Does he have some sort of condition that causes this?
He probably got emotional when he realized that by winning this match he's accessed the Kong line, no way he can beat MVP, he's on genie mode again.
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On April 06 2011 11:33 ct2299 wrote:
I don't get why everyone says TvP is imbalanced and that GSL terran players were in a slump until recently. I think it's better to say that until recently, Terran players were being LAZY. Before this, all we were seeing was Marauder, viking and medivac for TvP so of course you're going to get facerolled like. I would actually have been concerned if Terran were able to win that easily.
Nowadays, Terran are being forced to make ghosts, throw in some tanks and use ravens as well for PDD, and we've been seeing just how strong that is. I don't think TvP was ever imbalanced, more just MMM began to not work and Terran weren't able to find a better way to play until they realized how good marine/tank was.
On that subject, I think HT's should still have amulet but have it be -5 energy less than you need to storm. And give zerg an ability to drain energy. I don't see why HT's can feedback, ghosts can EMP... and there's no way for zerg to "drain" energy short of actually neural parasiting an enemy spell caster to prevent them from casting.
The only matchup I'll say that is definitely much harder is ZvP. TvP is perfectly fine, people who think Protoss have an insane advantage are only crying because MMM balls don't work anymore.
Terran were top 3 of 4 of season 4 and ultimately won it. That was season before last. Other than oGsMC protoss pretty much sucking in GSL.
There is zero statistics to back up this whole protoss imba meme just opinion. Stats on ladders, in tournament roundups, etc say Terran most powerful and zerg/toss about even.
I think it has to do with when toss gets 200 they just demolish whatever you put in front of them. Perception becomes reality.
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On April 06 2011 12:18 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 11:24 Powerfoe wrote:
MarineKing seems to be crying after every game. Does he have some sort of condition that causes this? He probably got emotional when he realized that by winning this match he's accessed the Kong line, no way he can beat MVP, he's on genie mode again.
MVP could've gotten 3-0'd by San if San didnt try his weakest style, early pressure with 4gate.. mvp wasn't playing great like he was in GSL5.
I doubt MarineKing thinks he's going to lose.
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On April 06 2011 12:06 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 11:51 tripper688 wrote:On April 06 2011 09:47 tdt wrote:On April 06 2011 07:08 Zinthar wrote:
I'm really surprised that the Terrans took both TvP's (even though MVP is probably the most skilled SC2 player in the world) given the current state of the metagame.
In both series, we saw the Protoss players going for heavy early 4 gate pressure in half of the games and some beautiful defense by MVP & MKP (particularly MKP's Game 3 defense).
I'm surprised particularly at MC, because was 2-0'd recently in the FXOpen by Cloud (a terran) because he decided to just go for 4 gate all-ins, and Cloud defended. Considering that TvP swings even more in P's favor the longer the game goes, not trying for a macro game in game 5 (because of the absurdly long rush distance) was a poor decision.
I'm really impressed with MKP (aside from his poor decision in Game 1 to not attack up MC's ramp when he was still producing on only 1 wg) -- this is a guy who had a set style that worked, then was figured out by MVP in the January GSL, and he performed poorly in the recent GSTL's. Now he'll go for mech, or a 1-1-1 all-in, and sometimes still for marine heavy play with the sickest Terran micro around (aside from perhaps MVP).
On the other hand, MC has become quite predictable. Honestly, I think MVP & NesTea are still a step above MC, especially when it comes to decision making. MC is the best Protoss at a time when Protoss has been winning almost everything, and he has an impeccable early game. But we haven't seen him in a lot of mid & late game situations -- he seems to no longer be invincible if you can get him past the point of crushing you with gateway units. The one game July took on him was where he went for early stargate instead of a 4-6 wg push. Mvp beat him quite easily in the February GSTL with a 2 base timing push. Then he pumped way too many probes off of 2 base on Xel'Naga vs. MKP when his obs scouted MKP going for a one base push that was basically all-in.
He's still a top 5 overall player, but he might need a MKP reinvention of his play style, particularly given that he's expecting a Protoss gateway-related nerf in 1.4 (based on his interview after winning the March GSL). You're implying Toss is strongest is ridiculous - it should be according to blizzard, but it's not. Terran is least played race and has more tournament wins, makes up majority of top 20 in ladders. Don't let a couple tournaments and exceptional play fool you real numbers suggest otherwise. And what do tournament results from patch 1.2 have to do with the current state of the game? As of the last 2 months, Terran have been doing pretty badly in comparison to Z and P despite having equal or better representation at most major tournaments. The overall player pool on ladder has very little to do with representation at the highest levels either. Take a look at tournament play and results. A glance at the "real numbers" should tell you that what you're wrong. On April 06 2011 09:58 acejem wrote:On April 06 2011 09:47 tdt wrote:On April 06 2011 07:08 Zinthar wrote:
I'm really surprised that the Terrans took both TvP's (even though MVP is probably the most skilled SC2 player in the world) given the current state of the metagame.
In both series, we saw the Protoss players going for heavy early 4 gate pressure in half of the games and some beautiful defense by MVP & MKP (particularly MKP's Game 3 defense).
I'm surprised particularly at MC, because was 2-0'd recently in the FXOpen by Cloud (a terran) because he decided to just go for 4 gate all-ins, and Cloud defended. Considering that TvP swings even more in P's favor the longer the game goes, not trying for a macro game in game 5 (because of the absurdly long rush distance) was a poor decision.
I'm really impressed with MKP (aside from his poor decision in Game 1 to not attack up MC's ramp when he was still producing on only 1 wg) -- this is a guy who had a set style that worked, then was figured out by MVP in the January GSL, and he performed poorly in the recent GSTL's. Now he'll go for mech, or a 1-1-1 all-in, and sometimes still for marine heavy play with the sickest Terran micro around (aside from perhaps MVP).
On the other hand, MC has become quite predictable. Honestly, I think MVP & NesTea are still a step above MC, especially when it comes to decision making. MC is the best Protoss at a time when Protoss has been winning almost everything, and he has an impeccable early game. But we haven't seen him in a lot of mid & late game situations -- he seems to no longer be invincible if you can get him past the point of crushing you with gateway units. The one game July took on him was where he went for early stargate instead of a 4-6 wg push. Mvp beat him quite easily in the February GSTL with a 2 base timing push. Then he pumped way too many probes off of 2 base on Xel'Naga vs. MKP when his obs scouted MKP going for a one base push that was basically all-in.
He's still a top 5 overall player, but he might need a MKP reinvention of his play style, particularly given that he's expecting a Protoss gateway-related nerf in 1.4 (based on his interview after winning the March GSL). You're implying Toss is strongest is ridiculous - it should be according to blizzard, but it's not. Terran is least played race and has more tournament wins, makes up majority of top 20 in ladders. Don't let a couple tournaments and exceptional play fool you real numbers suggest otherwise. Not sure what you're smoking, but zerg is clearly the least played race. As of 1.3, T is the least played at master level on ladder. On April 06 2011 11:17 OhMyGawd wrote:
I was really hoping for Zv anything finals.
Zerg have been underrepresented in turnies lately. Uh what? Which major tournies have Z been underrepresented in lately? GSL5? IEM WC? GSLWC? Z have been in equal or more major tourney finals in the last month than T even with the TvT final now. Here is latest touney roundup I could find march 15-31 ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Hot_Bid/TourRound/Podium2011032.png) You were saying? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=209265
Major tournament. IEM, GSL, Assembly, TSL > local online tournies or small LAN qualifiers.
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On April 06 2011 12:19 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 11:33 ct2299 wrote:
I don't get why everyone says TvP is imbalanced and that GSL terran players were in a slump until recently. I think it's better to say that until recently, Terran players were being LAZY. Before this, all we were seeing was Marauder, viking and medivac for TvP so of course you're going to get facerolled like. I would actually have been concerned if Terran were able to win that easily.
Nowadays, Terran are being forced to make ghosts, throw in some tanks and use ravens as well for PDD, and we've been seeing just how strong that is. I don't think TvP was ever imbalanced, more just MMM began to not work and Terran weren't able to find a better way to play until they realized how good marine/tank was.
On that subject, I think HT's should still have amulet but have it be -5 energy less than you need to storm. And give zerg an ability to drain energy. I don't see why HT's can feedback, ghosts can EMP... and there's no way for zerg to "drain" energy short of actually neural parasiting an enemy spell caster to prevent them from casting.
The only matchup I'll say that is definitely much harder is ZvP. TvP is perfectly fine, people who think Protoss have an insane advantage are only crying because MMM balls don't work anymore.
Terran were top 3 of 4 of season 4 and ultimately won it. That was season before last. Other than oGsMC protoss pretty much sucking in GSL. There is zero statistics to back up this whole protoss imba meme just opinion. Stats on ladders, in tournament roundups, etc say Terran most powerful and zerg/toss about even. I think it has to do with when toss gets 200 they just demolish whatever you put in front of them. Perception becomes reality.
LOL what? GSL 5, 0 T in Ro4 and you find that less relevant than season 4 results? Stats on ladder show that T is played about as much as Z and less as protoss with equal win % as Z. Tournament round ups? Looking at the highest and most prestigious of tournaments show T doing poorer than P or even Z in the last 2 months. Are you even serious anymore?
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Just finished watching these games. I'm awestruck by some of the play.
One question: Aside from having perfect marine micro like MKP, what is the best method for defending against the VoidRay + zealot warp in + stalkers at the ramp combo attack à la game 3? Had MarineKing gone any units other than pure marines, he surely would've died.
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On April 06 2011 12:50 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:
Just finished watching these games. I'm awestruck by some of the play.
One question: Aside from having perfect marine micro like MKP, what is the best method for defending against the VoidRay + zealot warp in + stalkers at the ramp combo attack à la game 3? Had MarineKing gone any units other than pure marines, he surely would've died.
I guess if he didn't expo and went 1 base bio with a lot of marines, it might have seemed closer but it still looks pretty strong. Looked pretty all in too though.
On April 06 2011 12:06 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 11:51 tripper688 wrote:On April 06 2011 09:47 tdt wrote:On April 06 2011 07:08 Zinthar wrote:
I'm really surprised that the Terrans took both TvP's (even though MVP is probably the most skilled SC2 player in the world) given the current state of the metagame.
In both series, we saw the Protoss players going for heavy early 4 gate pressure in half of the games and some beautiful defense by MVP & MKP (particularly MKP's Game 3 defense).
I'm surprised particularly at MC, because was 2-0'd recently in the FXOpen by Cloud (a terran) because he decided to just go for 4 gate all-ins, and Cloud defended. Considering that TvP swings even more in P's favor the longer the game goes, not trying for a macro game in game 5 (because of the absurdly long rush distance) was a poor decision.
I'm really impressed with MKP (aside from his poor decision in Game 1 to not attack up MC's ramp when he was still producing on only 1 wg) -- this is a guy who had a set style that worked, then was figured out by MVP in the January GSL, and he performed poorly in the recent GSTL's. Now he'll go for mech, or a 1-1-1 all-in, and sometimes still for marine heavy play with the sickest Terran micro around (aside from perhaps MVP).
On the other hand, MC has become quite predictable. Honestly, I think MVP & NesTea are still a step above MC, especially when it comes to decision making. MC is the best Protoss at a time when Protoss has been winning almost everything, and he has an impeccable early game. But we haven't seen him in a lot of mid & late game situations -- he seems to no longer be invincible if you can get him past the point of crushing you with gateway units. The one game July took on him was where he went for early stargate instead of a 4-6 wg push. Mvp beat him quite easily in the February GSTL with a 2 base timing push. Then he pumped way too many probes off of 2 base on Xel'Naga vs. MKP when his obs scouted MKP going for a one base push that was basically all-in.
He's still a top 5 overall player, but he might need a MKP reinvention of his play style, particularly given that he's expecting a Protoss gateway-related nerf in 1.4 (based on his interview after winning the March GSL). You're implying Toss is strongest is ridiculous - it should be according to blizzard, but it's not. Terran is least played race and has more tournament wins, makes up majority of top 20 in ladders. Don't let a couple tournaments and exceptional play fool you real numbers suggest otherwise. And what do tournament results from patch 1.2 have to do with the current state of the game? As of the last 2 months, Terran have been doing pretty badly in comparison to Z and P despite having equal or better representation at most major tournaments. The overall player pool on ladder has very little to do with representation at the highest levels either. Take a look at tournament play and results. A glance at the "real numbers" should tell you that what you're wrong. On April 06 2011 09:58 acejem wrote:On April 06 2011 09:47 tdt wrote:On April 06 2011 07:08 Zinthar wrote:
I'm really surprised that the Terrans took both TvP's (even though MVP is probably the most skilled SC2 player in the world) given the current state of the metagame.
In both series, we saw the Protoss players going for heavy early 4 gate pressure in half of the games and some beautiful defense by MVP & MKP (particularly MKP's Game 3 defense).
I'm surprised particularly at MC, because was 2-0'd recently in the FXOpen by Cloud (a terran) because he decided to just go for 4 gate all-ins, and Cloud defended. Considering that TvP swings even more in P's favor the longer the game goes, not trying for a macro game in game 5 (because of the absurdly long rush distance) was a poor decision.
I'm really impressed with MKP (aside from his poor decision in Game 1 to not attack up MC's ramp when he was still producing on only 1 wg) -- this is a guy who had a set style that worked, then was figured out by MVP in the January GSL, and he performed poorly in the recent GSTL's. Now he'll go for mech, or a 1-1-1 all-in, and sometimes still for marine heavy play with the sickest Terran micro around (aside from perhaps MVP).
On the other hand, MC has become quite predictable. Honestly, I think MVP & NesTea are still a step above MC, especially when it comes to decision making. MC is the best Protoss at a time when Protoss has been winning almost everything, and he has an impeccable early game. But we haven't seen him in a lot of mid & late game situations -- he seems to no longer be invincible if you can get him past the point of crushing you with gateway units. The one game July took on him was where he went for early stargate instead of a 4-6 wg push. Mvp beat him quite easily in the February GSTL with a 2 base timing push. Then he pumped way too many probes off of 2 base on Xel'Naga vs. MKP when his obs scouted MKP going for a one base push that was basically all-in.
He's still a top 5 overall player, but he might need a MKP reinvention of his play style, particularly given that he's expecting a Protoss gateway-related nerf in 1.4 (based on his interview after winning the March GSL). You're implying Toss is strongest is ridiculous - it should be according to blizzard, but it's not. Terran is least played race and has more tournament wins, makes up majority of top 20 in ladders. Don't let a couple tournaments and exceptional play fool you real numbers suggest otherwise. Not sure what you're smoking, but zerg is clearly the least played race. As of 1.3, T is the least played at master level on ladder. On April 06 2011 11:17 OhMyGawd wrote:
I was really hoping for Zv anything finals.
Zerg have been underrepresented in turnies lately. Uh what? Which major tournies have Z been underrepresented in lately? GSL5? IEM WC? GSLWC? Z have been in equal or more major tourney finals in the last month than T even with the TvT final now. Here is latest touney roundup I could find march 15-31 You were saying? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=209265
and tdt...look at the last month to two months. you were saying?
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Major_Tournaments
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id rather watch TvT than anything with protoss as a zerg player
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United States187 Posts
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So happy for MKP... I could feel the emotion after he won that last game.
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Both Protosses got outplayed and had poor decision-making (4 gating on large maps, attacking when they shouldn't, MC FE'ing on Xel'Naga for no reason and having no units to defend, etc). I don't think this changes anything about TvP being in favor of Toss atm.
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On April 06 2011 13:17 jonathan1 wrote:
id rather watch TvT than anything with protoss as a zerg player
Made me lol. Good TvP can be fun to watch in mid-late to late game though :o
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TvT >> PvP, ZvZ,
TvT > PvZ
TvT ~ PvT, TvZ
IMO.
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On April 06 2011 12:48 tripper688 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 12:19 tdt wrote:On April 06 2011 11:33 ct2299 wrote:
I don't get why everyone says TvP is imbalanced and that GSL terran players were in a slump until recently. I think it's better to say that until recently, Terran players were being LAZY. Before this, all we were seeing was Marauder, viking and medivac for TvP so of course you're going to get facerolled like. I would actually have been concerned if Terran were able to win that easily.
Nowadays, Terran are being forced to make ghosts, throw in some tanks and use ravens as well for PDD, and we've been seeing just how strong that is. I don't think TvP was ever imbalanced, more just MMM began to not work and Terran weren't able to find a better way to play until they realized how good marine/tank was.
On that subject, I think HT's should still have amulet but have it be -5 energy less than you need to storm. And give zerg an ability to drain energy. I don't see why HT's can feedback, ghosts can EMP... and there's no way for zerg to "drain" energy short of actually neural parasiting an enemy spell caster to prevent them from casting.
The only matchup I'll say that is definitely much harder is ZvP. TvP is perfectly fine, people who think Protoss have an insane advantage are only crying because MMM balls don't work anymore.
Terran were top 3 of 4 of season 4 and ultimately won it. That was season before last. Other than oGsMC protoss pretty much sucking in GSL. There is zero statistics to back up this whole protoss imba meme just opinion. Stats on ladders, in tournament roundups, etc say Terran most powerful and zerg/toss about even. I think it has to do with when toss gets 200 they just demolish whatever you put in front of them. Perception becomes reality. LOL what? GSL 5, 0 T in Ro4 and you find that less relevant than season 4 results? Stats on ladder show that T is played about as much as Z and less as protoss with equal win % as Z. Tournament round ups? Looking at the highest and most prestigious of tournaments show T doing poorer than P or even Z in the last 2 months. Are you even serious anymore?
Completely irrelevant. The pre-patch win-ratio in master league favor Terran. There were 0 Protoss in Season 1,2,4 of GSL. there were 0 Terran in one(1)(uno) season and the Terran are already starting to QQ. If you watched the games today it's even more evident that your idea is purely unfounded. Try to think before spitting out things that's not true. (Like Terran doing poorer than Z). Are you even serious anymore?
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On April 06 2011 14:50 dragonblade369 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 12:48 tripper688 wrote:On April 06 2011 12:19 tdt wrote:On April 06 2011 11:33 ct2299 wrote:
I don't get why everyone says TvP is imbalanced and that GSL terran players were in a slump until recently. I think it's better to say that until recently, Terran players were being LAZY. Before this, all we were seeing was Marauder, viking and medivac for TvP so of course you're going to get facerolled like. I would actually have been concerned if Terran were able to win that easily.
Nowadays, Terran are being forced to make ghosts, throw in some tanks and use ravens as well for PDD, and we've been seeing just how strong that is. I don't think TvP was ever imbalanced, more just MMM began to not work and Terran weren't able to find a better way to play until they realized how good marine/tank was.
On that subject, I think HT's should still have amulet but have it be -5 energy less than you need to storm. And give zerg an ability to drain energy. I don't see why HT's can feedback, ghosts can EMP... and there's no way for zerg to "drain" energy short of actually neural parasiting an enemy spell caster to prevent them from casting.
The only matchup I'll say that is definitely much harder is ZvP. TvP is perfectly fine, people who think Protoss have an insane advantage are only crying because MMM balls don't work anymore.
Terran were top 3 of 4 of season 4 and ultimately won it. That was season before last. Other than oGsMC protoss pretty much sucking in GSL. There is zero statistics to back up this whole protoss imba meme just opinion. Stats on ladders, in tournament roundups, etc say Terran most powerful and zerg/toss about even. I think it has to do with when toss gets 200 they just demolish whatever you put in front of them. Perception becomes reality. LOL what? GSL 5, 0 T in Ro4 and you find that less relevant than season 4 results? Stats on ladder show that T is played about as much as Z and less as protoss with equal win % as Z. Tournament round ups? Looking at the highest and most prestigious of tournaments show T doing poorer than P or even Z in the last 2 months. Are you even serious anymore? Completely irrelevant. The pre-patch win-ratio in master league favor Terran. There were 0 Protoss in Season 1,2,4 of GSL. there were 0 Terran in one(1)(uno) season and the Terran are already starting to QQ. If you watched the games today it's even more evident that your idea is purely unfounded. Try to think before spitting out things that's not true. (Like Terran doing poorer than Z). Are you even serious anymore?
EXACTLY
The reason why Terran was eliminated so early in GSL 5 is because Terran don't have it as easy anymore as people figure out how to counter MMM all the time.
Terran players just got lazy. Look how much the race is against Protoss when they throw in some ghosts and PDD.
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I also love how everyone here suddenly loves TvT now. Everyone used to hate it when SC2 first came out and when GSL was Terran dominated. The amount of mindless QQ here is amazing hahaha.
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On April 06 2011 15:50 ct2299 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 14:50 dragonblade369 wrote:On April 06 2011 12:48 tripper688 wrote:On April 06 2011 12:19 tdt wrote:On April 06 2011 11:33 ct2299 wrote:
I don't get why everyone says TvP is imbalanced and that GSL terran players were in a slump until recently. I think it's better to say that until recently, Terran players were being LAZY. Before this, all we were seeing was Marauder, viking and medivac for TvP so of course you're going to get facerolled like. I would actually have been concerned if Terran were able to win that easily.
Nowadays, Terran are being forced to make ghosts, throw in some tanks and use ravens as well for PDD, and we've been seeing just how strong that is. I don't think TvP was ever imbalanced, more just MMM began to not work and Terran weren't able to find a better way to play until they realized how good marine/tank was.
On that subject, I think HT's should still have amulet but have it be -5 energy less than you need to storm. And give zerg an ability to drain energy. I don't see why HT's can feedback, ghosts can EMP... and there's no way for zerg to "drain" energy short of actually neural parasiting an enemy spell caster to prevent them from casting.
The only matchup I'll say that is definitely much harder is ZvP. TvP is perfectly fine, people who think Protoss have an insane advantage are only crying because MMM balls don't work anymore.
Terran were top 3 of 4 of season 4 and ultimately won it. That was season before last. Other than oGsMC protoss pretty much sucking in GSL. There is zero statistics to back up this whole protoss imba meme just opinion. Stats on ladders, in tournament roundups, etc say Terran most powerful and zerg/toss about even. I think it has to do with when toss gets 200 they just demolish whatever you put in front of them. Perception becomes reality. LOL what? GSL 5, 0 T in Ro4 and you find that less relevant than season 4 results? Stats on ladder show that T is played about as much as Z and less as protoss with equal win % as Z. Tournament round ups? Looking at the highest and most prestigious of tournaments show T doing poorer than P or even Z in the last 2 months. Are you even serious anymore? Completely irrelevant. The pre-patch win-ratio in master league favor Terran. There were 0 Protoss in Season 1,2,4 of GSL. there were 0 Terran in one(1)(uno) season and the Terran are already starting to QQ. If you watched the games today it's even more evident that your idea is purely unfounded. Try to think before spitting out things that's not true. (Like Terran doing poorer than Z). Are you even serious anymore? EXACTLY The reason why Terran was eliminated so early in GSL 5 is because Terran don't have it as easy anymore as people figure out how to counter MMM all the time. Terran players just got lazy. Look how much the race is against Protoss when they throw in some ghosts and PDD.
Its not that players got lazy, its just that their builds got outdated and it takes time to figure out new builds that will win you games consistently.
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Anybody else think MVPs pic in the OP is just full of herp derp? lol could have picked a better picture. I always find it kinda funny when they show him during a game and he's concentrating so hard that his mouth is just hanging open. lol
I'm kind of glad the game is changing so that MMM isnt as viable. It makes TvP more exciting to watch and TvT is also much more dynamic now.
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On April 06 2011 13:17 jonathan1 wrote:
id rather watch TvT than anything with protoss as a zerg player
Agreed, anything involving protoss is generally incredibly boring.
TvT is the best mirror by some distance so i'm looking forward to it 
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