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On April 06 2011 20:32 padfoota wrote:
"Some people believe football is a matter of life and death. I'm very disappointed with that attitude. I can assure you it is much, much more important than that."
-Bill Shankly, English soccer manager.
One of the most misunderstood quotes of all time from a great man. He was actually saying precisely the opposite of what people think he said.
Otherwise, it's a bit silly to criticize someone for crying about this sort of thing. No one criticizes day9 for crying when just recollecting these intense tournaments, because we get to hear the backstory. Who knows what other dimensions are adding to the subtext of this that could be making him feel very emotional about his success.
At any rate, it was a tremendous result.
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On April 07 2011 01:38 mr.reee wrote:
T v T....not watching
better than a pvp.
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On April 07 2011 01:38 mr.reee wrote:
T v T....not watching
mvp v mkp... sooo watching 
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On April 06 2011 22:39 dragonblade369 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 17:43 tripper688 wrote:On April 06 2011 14:50 dragonblade369 wrote:On April 06 2011 12:48 tripper688 wrote:On April 06 2011 12:19 tdt wrote:On April 06 2011 11:33 ct2299 wrote:
I don't get why everyone says TvP is imbalanced and that GSL terran players were in a slump until recently. I think it's better to say that until recently, Terran players were being LAZY. Before this, all we were seeing was Marauder, viking and medivac for TvP so of course you're going to get facerolled like. I would actually have been concerned if Terran were able to win that easily.
Nowadays, Terran are being forced to make ghosts, throw in some tanks and use ravens as well for PDD, and we've been seeing just how strong that is. I don't think TvP was ever imbalanced, more just MMM began to not work and Terran weren't able to find a better way to play until they realized how good marine/tank was.
On that subject, I think HT's should still have amulet but have it be -5 energy less than you need to storm. And give zerg an ability to drain energy. I don't see why HT's can feedback, ghosts can EMP... and there's no way for zerg to "drain" energy short of actually neural parasiting an enemy spell caster to prevent them from casting.
The only matchup I'll say that is definitely much harder is ZvP. TvP is perfectly fine, people who think Protoss have an insane advantage are only crying because MMM balls don't work anymore.
Terran were top 3 of 4 of season 4 and ultimately won it. That was season before last. Other than oGsMC protoss pretty much sucking in GSL. There is zero statistics to back up this whole protoss imba meme just opinion. Stats on ladders, in tournament roundups, etc say Terran most powerful and zerg/toss about even. I think it has to do with when toss gets 200 they just demolish whatever you put in front of them. Perception becomes reality. LOL what? GSL 5, 0 T in Ro4 and you find that less relevant than season 4 results? Stats on ladder show that T is played about as much as Z and less as protoss with equal win % as Z. Tournament round ups? Looking at the highest and most prestigious of tournaments show T doing poorer than P or even Z in the last 2 months. Are you even serious anymore? Completely irrelevant. The pre-patch win-ratio in master league favor Terran. There were 0 Protoss in Season 1,2,4 of GSL. there were 0 Terran in one(1)(uno) season and the Terran are already starting to QQ. If you watched the games today it's even more evident that your idea is purely unfounded. Try to think before spitting out things that's not true. (Like Terran doing poorer than Z). Are you even serious anymore? Really dude? You're talking about season 1,2, and 4 of GSL, with the most recent one in January as a way of measuring the current state of the game? Have you looked at the recent tournaments? 1 day of games where Protoss made some pretty bad calls with outstanding micro from Terran is enough to refute 2 months of results? As for Master League: Terran win rates were .4% higher than Z in 1.2 and .2% higher in 1.3. Have you even been following any of the major tournies in the last oh...2 months? Lets look at it this way. Two days of top terran slump made so that there were no terran in top 4 of gsl 5. How is that different from 1 day of incredible terran micro? You are being a bit hypocryte there. Terran are now starting to explore othrr styles than mmm. Give it some time. Typing on phone. Sry for typo.
And 2 days of Terran slump explains away no Terran in top 4 of IEM WC, no Terran top 4 at Assembly, and only 1 Terran at the top 4 of both MLG Dallas and GSL Code A? Would it be fair to assign "Slumping" as a reason for why Protoss were no shows in Season 1,2,4? I'm not saying its because Terran as a race is UP or that Protoss/Zerg are OP, but when you look at tournament results, Terran simply isn't delivering just like P/Z 6 months ago. I'm not talking about a single tournament's showing either, this is from multiple tournaments over several months.
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On April 06 2011 17:42 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 17:36 hmmm... wrote:On April 06 2011 11:24 Powerfoe wrote:
MarineKing seems to be crying after every game. Does he have some sort of condition that causes this? he invests 12+ hours each and every day trying to improve himself. I don't know how you can put such arbitary numbers out of your heat? From where do you get these "12+ hours" ? Yes you have to train alot to be as good as he is, but Sc2 hasn't reached bw-esque dimensions. I don't believe it, they don't play that much consistently every day.
"12+ hours" ? It's commmon. Edison(Loner's coach) told us on forum that the Prime team members constantly practice 12+ hours/day. Get it?
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On April 07 2011 02:29 tripper688 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 22:39 dragonblade369 wrote:On April 06 2011 17:43 tripper688 wrote:On April 06 2011 14:50 dragonblade369 wrote:On April 06 2011 12:48 tripper688 wrote:On April 06 2011 12:19 tdt wrote:On April 06 2011 11:33 ct2299 wrote:
I don't get why everyone says TvP is imbalanced and that GSL terran players were in a slump until recently. I think it's better to say that until recently, Terran players were being LAZY. Before this, all we were seeing was Marauder, viking and medivac for TvP so of course you're going to get facerolled like. I would actually have been concerned if Terran were able to win that easily.
Nowadays, Terran are being forced to make ghosts, throw in some tanks and use ravens as well for PDD, and we've been seeing just how strong that is. I don't think TvP was ever imbalanced, more just MMM began to not work and Terran weren't able to find a better way to play until they realized how good marine/tank was.
On that subject, I think HT's should still have amulet but have it be -5 energy less than you need to storm. And give zerg an ability to drain energy. I don't see why HT's can feedback, ghosts can EMP... and there's no way for zerg to "drain" energy short of actually neural parasiting an enemy spell caster to prevent them from casting.
The only matchup I'll say that is definitely much harder is ZvP. TvP is perfectly fine, people who think Protoss have an insane advantage are only crying because MMM balls don't work anymore.
Terran were top 3 of 4 of season 4 and ultimately won it. That was season before last. Other than oGsMC protoss pretty much sucking in GSL. There is zero statistics to back up this whole protoss imba meme just opinion. Stats on ladders, in tournament roundups, etc say Terran most powerful and zerg/toss about even. I think it has to do with when toss gets 200 they just demolish whatever you put in front of them. Perception becomes reality. LOL what? GSL 5, 0 T in Ro4 and you find that less relevant than season 4 results? Stats on ladder show that T is played about as much as Z and less as protoss with equal win % as Z. Tournament round ups? Looking at the highest and most prestigious of tournaments show T doing poorer than P or even Z in the last 2 months. Are you even serious anymore? Completely irrelevant. The pre-patch win-ratio in master league favor Terran. There were 0 Protoss in Season 1,2,4 of GSL. there were 0 Terran in one(1)(uno) season and the Terran are already starting to QQ. If you watched the games today it's even more evident that your idea is purely unfounded. Try to think before spitting out things that's not true. (Like Terran doing poorer than Z). Are you even serious anymore? Really dude? You're talking about season 1,2, and 4 of GSL, with the most recent one in January as a way of measuring the current state of the game? Have you looked at the recent tournaments? 1 day of games where Protoss made some pretty bad calls with outstanding micro from Terran is enough to refute 2 months of results? As for Master League: Terran win rates were .4% higher than Z in 1.2 and .2% higher in 1.3. Have you even been following any of the major tournies in the last oh...2 months? Lets look at it this way. Two days of top terran slump made so that there were no terran in top 4 of gsl 5. How is that different from 1 day of incredible terran micro? You are being a bit hypocryte there. Terran are now starting to explore othrr styles than mmm. Give it some time. Typing on phone. Sry for typo. And 2 days of Terran slump explains away no Terran in top 4 of IEM WC, no Terran top 4 at Assembly, and only 1 Terran at the top 4 of both MLG Dallas and GSL Code A? Would it be fair to assign "Slumping" as a reason for why Protoss were no shows in Season 1,2,4? I'm not saying its because Terran as a race is UP or that Protoss/Zerg are OP, but when you look at tournament results, Terran simply isn't delivering just like P/Z 6 months ago. I'm not talking about a single tournament's showing either, this is from multiple tournaments over several months.
It's not several months. It's only two months. Terrans were dominating juste 4+ month ago. The main change that made protoss better is the map, in which the Terrans are getting better at. Also, if you look at the GSTL result, you might notice that Terrans are doing incredibly well.
My take on the result is to give it time. Just like the time needed before protoss is able to utilize FF well enough to be able to dominate, I think Terran needs time to figure something out. The current tournament result shows that they are getting somewhere. Don't just look at the past, look at the present and predict the future.
It's like in GSL season 3 where P has the least representation and protoss QQ was at its peak. Historically, with no change, there's no chance of protoss winning, at all. But MC showed people how powerful a well used FF can be. Terrans are getting there.
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On April 07 2011 01:38 mr.reee wrote:
T v T....not watching
T v T imo is the only mirror match that is fun to watch
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On April 06 2011 12:18 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 11:24 Powerfoe wrote:
MarineKing seems to be crying after every game. Does he have some sort of condition that causes this? He probably got emotional when he realized that by winning this match he's accessed the Kong line, no way he can beat MVP, he's on genie mode again.
lol. well, he said if he didn't win he was going to accept it. gotta hand it to the kid, ballsy and yet humble with a sense of humor. aggressive play and yet he wears this adorable pink hoodie and cuddles with mvp. without any sense of insecurity, i might add. baller i tell you.
i just luv mkp. 
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On April 07 2011 02:48 Freebirdo7 wrote:T v T imo is the only mirror match that is fun to watch
Personally, I think MKP v X is a fun match up to watch lol.
On April 07 2011 03:03 haruk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 12:18 mordk wrote:On April 06 2011 11:24 Powerfoe wrote:
MarineKing seems to be crying after every game. Does he have some sort of condition that causes this? He probably got emotional when he realized that by winning this match he's accessed the Kong line, no way he can beat MVP, he's on genie mode again. lol. well, he said if he didn't win he was going to accept it. gotta hand it to the kid, ballsy and yet humble with a sense of humor. aggressive play and yet he wears this adorable pink hoodie and cuddles with mvp. without any sense of insecurity, i might add. baller i tell you. i just luv mkp.
hey hey, don't count him out yet. MVP still isn't quite looking like the beast he was in s4 and MKP just "shattered the world of reality in which you live in" by coming back 0-2 from the KraToss 
On April 07 2011 02:43 dragonblade369 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 02:29 tripper688 wrote:On April 06 2011 22:39 dragonblade369 wrote:On April 06 2011 17:43 tripper688 wrote:On April 06 2011 14:50 dragonblade369 wrote:On April 06 2011 12:48 tripper688 wrote:On April 06 2011 12:19 tdt wrote:On April 06 2011 11:33 ct2299 wrote:
I don't get why everyone says TvP is imbalanced and that GSL terran players were in a slump until recently. I think it's better to say that until recently, Terran players were being LAZY. Before this, all we were seeing was Marauder, viking and medivac for TvP so of course you're going to get facerolled like. I would actually have been concerned if Terran were able to win that easily.
Nowadays, Terran are being forced to make ghosts, throw in some tanks and use ravens as well for PDD, and we've been seeing just how strong that is. I don't think TvP was ever imbalanced, more just MMM began to not work and Terran weren't able to find a better way to play until they realized how good marine/tank was.
On that subject, I think HT's should still have amulet but have it be -5 energy less than you need to storm. And give zerg an ability to drain energy. I don't see why HT's can feedback, ghosts can EMP... and there's no way for zerg to "drain" energy short of actually neural parasiting an enemy spell caster to prevent them from casting.
The only matchup I'll say that is definitely much harder is ZvP. TvP is perfectly fine, people who think Protoss have an insane advantage are only crying because MMM balls don't work anymore.
Terran were top 3 of 4 of season 4 and ultimately won it. That was season before last. Other than oGsMC protoss pretty much sucking in GSL. There is zero statistics to back up this whole protoss imba meme just opinion. Stats on ladders, in tournament roundups, etc say Terran most powerful and zerg/toss about even. I think it has to do with when toss gets 200 they just demolish whatever you put in front of them. Perception becomes reality. LOL what? GSL 5, 0 T in Ro4 and you find that less relevant than season 4 results? Stats on ladder show that T is played about as much as Z and less as protoss with equal win % as Z. Tournament round ups? Looking at the highest and most prestigious of tournaments show T doing poorer than P or even Z in the last 2 months. Are you even serious anymore? Completely irrelevant. The pre-patch win-ratio in master league favor Terran. There were 0 Protoss in Season 1,2,4 of GSL. there were 0 Terran in one(1)(uno) season and the Terran are already starting to QQ. If you watched the games today it's even more evident that your idea is purely unfounded. Try to think before spitting out things that's not true. (Like Terran doing poorer than Z). Are you even serious anymore? Really dude? You're talking about season 1,2, and 4 of GSL, with the most recent one in January as a way of measuring the current state of the game? Have you looked at the recent tournaments? 1 day of games where Protoss made some pretty bad calls with outstanding micro from Terran is enough to refute 2 months of results? As for Master League: Terran win rates were .4% higher than Z in 1.2 and .2% higher in 1.3. Have you even been following any of the major tournies in the last oh...2 months? Lets look at it this way. Two days of top terran slump made so that there were no terran in top 4 of gsl 5. How is that different from 1 day of incredible terran micro? You are being a bit hypocryte there. Terran are now starting to explore othrr styles than mmm. Give it some time. Typing on phone. Sry for typo. And 2 days of Terran slump explains away no Terran in top 4 of IEM WC, no Terran top 4 at Assembly, and only 1 Terran at the top 4 of both MLG Dallas and GSL Code A? Would it be fair to assign "Slumping" as a reason for why Protoss were no shows in Season 1,2,4? I'm not saying its because Terran as a race is UP or that Protoss/Zerg are OP, but when you look at tournament results, Terran simply isn't delivering just like P/Z 6 months ago. I'm not talking about a single tournament's showing either, this is from multiple tournaments over several months. It's not several months. It's only two months. Terrans were dominating juste 4+ month ago. The main change that made protoss better is the map, in which the Terrans are getting better at. Also, if you look at the GSTL result, you might notice that Terrans are doing incredibly well. My take on the result is to give it time. Just like the time needed before protoss is able to utilize FF well enough to be able to dominate, I think Terran needs time to figure something out. The current tournament result shows that they are getting somewhere. Don't just look at the past, look at the present and predict the future. It's like in GSL season 3 where P has the least representation and protoss QQ was at its peak. Historically, with no change, there's no chance of protoss winning, at all. But MC showed people how powerful a well used FF can be. Terrans are getting there.
I'm not sure how well of a comparison this is because of 2 things:
1.) In the 2 months leading up to GSL3, P had won more major tournaments than T has in the last 2 months, as well as having as many top 4 placements as T have right now in the last 2 months (looking at individual leagues). If P had rights to QQ then, T certainly have rights to QQ now.
2.) Throughout all the QQ and "change" from players adapting as P and Z, there were also numerous patches nerfing everything from tanks, to bunkers, to reapers, to cattlebruisers, to depot before rax, to medivacs, to scv targeting, etc etc as a reaction to the Terran "Domination."
While I agree that change needs time and that maybe we should hold off on the QQ for now, it just seems ironic that it was OK for P and Z to QQ after having similar stretches of lackluster performance while Blizzard/Gom went and fixed up the game only for T to be told to basically wait and l2p when being in a similar spot now.
*srry edited to get a couple other replies in*
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On April 07 2011 01:38 mr.reee wrote:
T v T....not watching
? TvT is easily the best mirror to watch and probably one of my favorite MU's. If MKP deploys his hyper aggressive pure Bio style, dropping all over the map, it can be a really really awesome series. If he tries to play out of his element, like the last finals vs mvp i.e: mech, then he might get stomped.
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TvT is probably the only mirror match where you can actually get a game going beyond 10 minutes. Though, I would love an epic game where all the minerals are mined out, every units available to terrans were used and the game ends with an epic SCVs vs SCVs micro. Ahh yes, that's one for the starcraft's history book.
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On April 07 2011 03:58 Gijian wrote:
TvT is probably the only mirror match where you can actually get a game going beyond 10 minutes. Though, I would love an epic game where all the minerals are mined out, every units available to terrans were used and the game ends with an epic SCVs vs SCVs micro. Ahh yes, that's one for the starcraft's history book.
do you one better...comes down to an epic raven vs raven battle with autoturrets and seeker missiles because all other units are dead and the only thing that can spawn are spells :D
4 hour game, make it happen mkp+mvp!!
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Not sure if anyone knows but are the finals tonight or is it a glitch on the gom site?
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That is the timer for the group selection for the next gsl.
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TvT is a horrible matchup, worse than zvz by far and pvp by a little. MKPvT is good though
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On April 07 2011 04:40 425kid wrote:
TvT is a horrible matchup, worse than zvz by far and pvp by a little. MKPvT is good though
pfft zvz.... show me one zvz game that deserves the word epic. There are maybe one or two at most...
Now TvT on the other hand.... look at my post on the previous page...
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Terran is in the same situation now where protoss was 2+ months ago.
Remember, there was a giant QQ protoss thread in the sc2general section (like 700 pages xD)
At this time, people thought that gateway units were weak, that the void ray nerf made it useless, that sentries only purpose was to FF their ramp defensively, and more. In fact, this was just a case of "learn to play".
From there, and without any buff (obs cost and phoenix time), the matchup went from very terran favored to very protoss favored. (remember the first GSL when every protoss died from the first terran 2 marauders 1 marine push ?) At this time I was always rooting for protoss, because a protoss win was always a good, hard fought game.
Then MC has arrived (must read with broodwar carrier voice xD). He started dismantling terrans with early pushes. He reversed the state of the matchup. Before him, "protoss weak early and strong late" was common knowledge. After him, terran is weak early, because terrans don't dare trying their pushes anymore, and even more, terrans are turtling in early game, in fear of dying to a sentry push.
This protoss domination exist for like 2 months, and now I always root for terrans in TvP because I know a terran win will always be a good, hard fought game. MVP and MKP opened the road in their ro4, but their builds are still not really refined, and every (yes, every (in fact not, MKP won one game with his 1 base marine tank banshee push, not really a long term viable build imo) game they won was games were they just played standard and managed to defeat an early push, and be ahead thanx to this. We still haven't seen anything that can make us think that they "solved" the matchup.
But at least we know now that this is again a case of "learn to play". We know that in the next weeks, leaded by MVP and MKP, terran players strategy will evolve, with no (or minimal) patching, so they can regain their momentum in the matchup. Then it will be protoss turn again.
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Canada480 Posts
On April 07 2011 04:48 nokz88 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 04:40 425kid wrote:
TvT is a horrible matchup, worse than zvz by far and pvp by a little. MKPvT is good though pfft zvz.... show me one zvz game that deserves the word epic. There are maybe one or two at most... Now TvT on the other hand.... look at my post on the previous page...
Not saying that Zvz is better than TvT, but Yugioh Vs Leenock and Coca Vs Leenock are pretty epic series.
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I don't know how you can put such arbitary numbers out of your heat?
From where do you get these "12+ hours" ?
Yes you have to train alot to be as good as he is, but Sc2 hasn't reached bw-esque
dimensions.
I don't believe it, they don't play that much consistently every day.
Just cus the skill level right now is lower doesn't mean they don't practice as much... since SC2 progamers have played only 1 year while the top BW pros have played 5+ years.
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EPT
