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On April 07 2011 04:50 MrCon wrote:
Terran is in the same situation now where protoss was 2+ months ago.
Remember, there was a giant QQ protoss thread in the sc2general section (like 700 pages xD)
At this time, people thought that gateway units were weak, that the void ray nerf made it useless, that sentries only purpose was to FF their ramp defensively, and more. In fact, this was just a case of "learn to play".
From there, and without any buff (obs cost and phoenix time), the matchup went from very terran favored to very protoss favored. (remember the first GSL when every protoss died from the first terran 2 marauders 1 marine push ?) At this time I was always rooting for protoss, because a protoss win was always a good, hard fought game.
Then MC has arrived (must read with broodwar carrier voice xD). He started dismantling terrans with early pushes. He reversed the state of the matchup. Before him, "protoss weak early and strong late" was common knowledge. After him, terran is weak early, because terrans don't dare trying their pushes anymore, and even more, terrans are turtling in early game, in fear of dying to a sentry push.
This protoss domination exist for like 2 months, and now I always root for terrans in TvP because I know a terran win will always be a good, hard fought game. MVP and MKP opened the road in their ro4, but their builds are still not really refined, and every (yes, every (in fact not, MKP won one game with his 1 base marine tank banshee push, not really a long term viable build imo) game they won was games were they just played standard and managed to defeat an early push, and be ahead thanx to this. We still haven't seen anything that can make us think that they "solved" the matchup.
But at least we know now that this is again a case of "learn to play". We know that in the next weeks, leaded by MVP and MKP, terran players strategy will evolve, with no (or minimal) patching, so they can regain their momentum in the matchup. Then it will be protoss turn again.
Where was this sense of waiting for the MU to evolve and change and having players learning to play when Blizzard was piling on terran nerf after terran nerf in their patches and GOM introducing huge 1v1 maps? It's great that we seem to finally have moved away from the "OMG FOTM IS IMBA NERF NERF NERF NOW!" mentality but a part of me has to wonder how much of the current state of T is a result of patching and how much of it is a result of other players solving the older play style of T. You said it yourself, the MVP and MKP games were in no way an indication that T has solved P in any way...all the wins from T were either the result of failed early aggression on the part of P or very strong 1 base mid game push which, again like you said, doesn't seem to be a very viable strategy for the long term. Even during the dark days of Protoss, it seemed to be accepted that late game P (however hard it may be for P to reach late game) was where things generally evened out. In comparison, efficient use of force fields and a slew of patches has effectively mitigated the strength of the Terran early game while arguably buffing the Protoss late game (yes amulet nerf hurts but there have been buffs to VR, Chargelots, Phoenix, and observers).
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Well, when you think about it the nerfs where no where close to the amount of QQ.
Terran has been nerfed, but I can't remember (perhaps I'm wrong here) a single big nerf (except reapers and depot before rax).
The medivac speed nerf has helped, the bunker time is anecdotal, and protoss was already dominating the matchup before the stim nerf.
When I watch the game, I feel that for a big part, it's just protosses who play better (better builds, better micro, better strategy, better tactics)
As an example, remember 2+ months ago, standard terran play was to sent a marine and 2 marauders to poke at the P. Often that did good damage. Now we see that very rarely, and it's more for scouting; Now it's the P who sent a zealot and a stalker and poke the terran, and if the terran is teching, warp a pylon and just kill him (pretty rare, but that was just inconceivable 2 months ago).
And nothing (in both race) have been patched that influence that.
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-Forget it... My response is just going to start another stupid argument.
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On April 07 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:
Well, when you think about it the nerfs where no where close to the amount of QQ.
Terran has been nerfed, but I can't remember (perhaps I'm wrong here) a single big nerf (except reapers and depot before rax).
The medivac speed nerf has helped, the bunker time is anecdotal, and protoss was already dominating the matchup before the stim nerf.
When I watch the game, I feel that for a big part, it's just protosses who play better (better builds, better micro, better strategy, better tactics)
Reaper nerf and rax nerf and tank nerf are pretty big imo, as is medivac nerf and the scv targeting priority. It remains to be seen how the EMP nerf is going to play out. I don't think and I'm not trying to imply the current state of T is due to the result of nerfing but would you really say that all of the patching did not play a part in how T is today?
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On April 07 2011 06:06 tripper688 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:
Well, when you think about it the nerfs where no where close to the amount of QQ.
Terran has been nerfed, but I can't remember (perhaps I'm wrong here) a single big nerf (except reapers and depot before rax).
The medivac speed nerf has helped, the bunker time is anecdotal, and protoss was already dominating the matchup before the stim nerf.
When I watch the game, I feel that for a big part, it's just protosses who play better (better builds, better micro, better strategy, better tactics) Reaper nerf and rax nerf and tank nerf are pretty big imo, as is medivac nerf and the scv targeting priority. It remains to be seen how the EMP nerf is going to play out. I don't think and I'm not trying to imply the current state of T is due to the result of nerfing but would you really say that all of the patching did not play a part in how T is today?
Yeah, forgot the tank nerf, that was a huge nerf I forgot.
No, I wouldn't say that. But if I had to quantify it, I would say protoss players improving is 75% of the job, and T nerf/P buffs are the 25% left. (It's just an opinion, I'm not dogmatic about it)
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Anyone else get their Liquidbets right? I only voted against MC cuz i really want Marineking to prove himself against MVP this time.
This for no means that MC is on a slump it just means he was too cocky Round of 4 plus 2 golds is a hard feat. I wonder what MC gets for his 3rd GSL gold? Golden Mineral?
MC to take May GSL? because MC stands for: May Champion
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Golden Monitor, like he wanted (joked about?) haha
May Champion, that's wrong. (/troll)
That's pretty clever ;D
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On April 07 2011 05:47 tripper688 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 04:50 MrCon wrote:
Terran is in the same situation now where protoss was 2+ months ago.
Remember, there was a giant QQ protoss thread in the sc2general section (like 700 pages xD)
At this time, people thought that gateway units were weak, that the void ray nerf made it useless, that sentries only purpose was to FF their ramp defensively, and more. In fact, this was just a case of "learn to play".
From there, and without any buff (obs cost and phoenix time), the matchup went from very terran favored to very protoss favored. (remember the first GSL when every protoss died from the first terran 2 marauders 1 marine push ?) At this time I was always rooting for protoss, because a protoss win was always a good, hard fought game.
Then MC has arrived (must read with broodwar carrier voice xD). He started dismantling terrans with early pushes. He reversed the state of the matchup. Before him, "protoss weak early and strong late" was common knowledge. After him, terran is weak early, because terrans don't dare trying their pushes anymore, and even more, terrans are turtling in early game, in fear of dying to a sentry push.
This protoss domination exist for like 2 months, and now I always root for terrans in TvP because I know a terran win will always be a good, hard fought game. MVP and MKP opened the road in their ro4, but their builds are still not really refined, and every (yes, every (in fact not, MKP won one game with his 1 base marine tank banshee push, not really a long term viable build imo) game they won was games were they just played standard and managed to defeat an early push, and be ahead thanx to this. We still haven't seen anything that can make us think that they "solved" the matchup.
But at least we know now that this is again a case of "learn to play". We know that in the next weeks, leaded by MVP and MKP, terran players strategy will evolve, with no (or minimal) patching, so they can regain their momentum in the matchup. Then it will be protoss turn again. Where was this sense of waiting for the MU to evolve and change and having players learning to play when Blizzard was piling on terran nerf after terran nerf in their patches and GOM introducing huge 1v1 maps? It's great that we seem to finally have moved away from the "OMG FOTM IS IMBA NERF NERF NERF NOW!" mentality but a part of me has to wonder how much of the current state of T is a result of patching and how much of it is a result of other players solving the older play style of T. You said it yourself, the MVP and MKP games were in no way an indication that T has solved P in any way...all the wins from T were either the result of failed early aggression on the part of P or very strong 1 base mid game push which, again like you said, doesn't seem to be a very viable strategy for the long term. Even during the dark days of Protoss, it seemed to be accepted that late game P (however hard it may be for P to reach late game) was where things generally evened out. In comparison, efficient use of force fields and a slew of patches has effectively mitigated the strength of the Terran early game while arguably buffing the Protoss late game (yes amulet nerf hurts but there have been buffs to VR, Chargelots, Phoenix, and observers). Nothing from terran, that really matters in PvT was nerfed. Not MM, not stim bonus, not Banshees or Raven spells.
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On April 06 2011 12:43 tripper688 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 12:06 tdt wrote:On April 06 2011 11:51 tripper688 wrote:On April 06 2011 09:47 tdt wrote:On April 06 2011 07:08 Zinthar wrote:
I'm really surprised that the Terrans took both TvP's (even though MVP is probably the most skilled SC2 player in the world) given the current state of the metagame.
In both series, we saw the Protoss players going for heavy early 4 gate pressure in half of the games and some beautiful defense by MVP & MKP (particularly MKP's Game 3 defense).
I'm surprised particularly at MC, because was 2-0'd recently in the FXOpen by Cloud (a terran) because he decided to just go for 4 gate all-ins, and Cloud defended. Considering that TvP swings even more in P's favor the longer the game goes, not trying for a macro game in game 5 (because of the absurdly long rush distance) was a poor decision.
I'm really impressed with MKP (aside from his poor decision in Game 1 to not attack up MC's ramp when he was still producing on only 1 wg) -- this is a guy who had a set style that worked, then was figured out by MVP in the January GSL, and he performed poorly in the recent GSTL's. Now he'll go for mech, or a 1-1-1 all-in, and sometimes still for marine heavy play with the sickest Terran micro around (aside from perhaps MVP).
On the other hand, MC has become quite predictable. Honestly, I think MVP & NesTea are still a step above MC, especially when it comes to decision making. MC is the best Protoss at a time when Protoss has been winning almost everything, and he has an impeccable early game. But we haven't seen him in a lot of mid & late game situations -- he seems to no longer be invincible if you can get him past the point of crushing you with gateway units. The one game July took on him was where he went for early stargate instead of a 4-6 wg push. Mvp beat him quite easily in the February GSTL with a 2 base timing push. Then he pumped way too many probes off of 2 base on Xel'Naga vs. MKP when his obs scouted MKP going for a one base push that was basically all-in.
He's still a top 5 overall player, but he might need a MKP reinvention of his play style, particularly given that he's expecting a Protoss gateway-related nerf in 1.4 (based on his interview after winning the March GSL). You're implying Toss is strongest is ridiculous - it should be according to blizzard, but it's not. Terran is least played race and has more tournament wins, makes up majority of top 20 in ladders. Don't let a couple tournaments and exceptional play fool you real numbers suggest otherwise. And what do tournament results from patch 1.2 have to do with the current state of the game? As of the last 2 months, Terran have been doing pretty badly in comparison to Z and P despite having equal or better representation at most major tournaments. The overall player pool on ladder has very little to do with representation at the highest levels either. Take a look at tournament play and results. A glance at the "real numbers" should tell you that what you're wrong. On April 06 2011 09:58 acejem wrote:On April 06 2011 09:47 tdt wrote:On April 06 2011 07:08 Zinthar wrote:
I'm really surprised that the Terrans took both TvP's (even though MVP is probably the most skilled SC2 player in the world) given the current state of the metagame.
In both series, we saw the Protoss players going for heavy early 4 gate pressure in half of the games and some beautiful defense by MVP & MKP (particularly MKP's Game 3 defense).
I'm surprised particularly at MC, because was 2-0'd recently in the FXOpen by Cloud (a terran) because he decided to just go for 4 gate all-ins, and Cloud defended. Considering that TvP swings even more in P's favor the longer the game goes, not trying for a macro game in game 5 (because of the absurdly long rush distance) was a poor decision.
I'm really impressed with MKP (aside from his poor decision in Game 1 to not attack up MC's ramp when he was still producing on only 1 wg) -- this is a guy who had a set style that worked, then was figured out by MVP in the January GSL, and he performed poorly in the recent GSTL's. Now he'll go for mech, or a 1-1-1 all-in, and sometimes still for marine heavy play with the sickest Terran micro around (aside from perhaps MVP).
On the other hand, MC has become quite predictable. Honestly, I think MVP & NesTea are still a step above MC, especially when it comes to decision making. MC is the best Protoss at a time when Protoss has been winning almost everything, and he has an impeccable early game. But we haven't seen him in a lot of mid & late game situations -- he seems to no longer be invincible if you can get him past the point of crushing you with gateway units. The one game July took on him was where he went for early stargate instead of a 4-6 wg push. Mvp beat him quite easily in the February GSTL with a 2 base timing push. Then he pumped way too many probes off of 2 base on Xel'Naga vs. MKP when his obs scouted MKP going for a one base push that was basically all-in.
He's still a top 5 overall player, but he might need a MKP reinvention of his play style, particularly given that he's expecting a Protoss gateway-related nerf in 1.4 (based on his interview after winning the March GSL). You're implying Toss is strongest is ridiculous - it should be according to blizzard, but it's not. Terran is least played race and has more tournament wins, makes up majority of top 20 in ladders. Don't let a couple tournaments and exceptional play fool you real numbers suggest otherwise. Not sure what you're smoking, but zerg is clearly the least played race. As of 1.3, T is the least played at master level on ladder. On April 06 2011 11:17 OhMyGawd wrote:
I was really hoping for Zv anything finals.
Zerg have been underrepresented in turnies lately. Uh what? Which major tournies have Z been underrepresented in lately? GSL5? IEM WC? GSLWC? Z have been in equal or more major tourney finals in the last month than T even with the TvT final now. Here is latest touney roundup I could find march 15-31 ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Hot_Bid/TourRound/Podium2011032.png) You were saying? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=209265 Major tournament. IEM, GSL, Assembly, TSL > local online tournies or small LAN qualifiers.
You can't cite master league ladder results as part of your argument, then dismiss smaller tournaments feature professional players in the same breath.
Major tourneys -> Small tourneys -> Master ladder
And I don't see why a larger set of sample sizes should be ignored in favour of a smaller sample size comprised of a more elite group when the latter is more influenced by variation unrelated to balance. The better the players, the smaller mistakes are tolerated for losing games. The smaller the sample size, the less sure you are of results.
Likely, the latest round of results are a reflection of metagame influences than balance. Hence we see protoss domination more frequently in the Korean scene than the foreigner scene. (WOW to the latest code A qualifier results. Brotoss love-fest)
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On April 07 2011 06:09 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 06:06 tripper688 wrote:On April 07 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:
Well, when you think about it the nerfs where no where close to the amount of QQ.
Terran has been nerfed, but I can't remember (perhaps I'm wrong here) a single big nerf (except reapers and depot before rax).
The medivac speed nerf has helped, the bunker time is anecdotal, and protoss was already dominating the matchup before the stim nerf.
When I watch the game, I feel that for a big part, it's just protosses who play better (better builds, better micro, better strategy, better tactics) Reaper nerf and rax nerf and tank nerf are pretty big imo, as is medivac nerf and the scv targeting priority. It remains to be seen how the EMP nerf is going to play out. I don't think and I'm not trying to imply the current state of T is due to the result of nerfing but would you really say that all of the patching did not play a part in how T is today? Yeah, forgot the tank nerf, that was a huge nerf I forgot. No, I wouldn't say that. But if I had to quantify it, I would say protoss players improving is 75% of the job, and T nerf/P buffs are the 25% left. (It's just an opinion, I'm not dogmatic about it)
Protoss learning to forcefield was huge. Stimmed bio isn't even that strong against pure Gateway compositions anymore, one wrong engagement -> forcefields -> army dies half at a time.
Now that Protoss know how to effectively FF (and the Stim timing nerf), they can expand before Terran safely AND put pressure. Barracks units lose to Gateway units without Stim.
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On April 07 2011 04:59 HowSoOnIsNow wrote:
Not saying that Zvz is better than TvT, but Yugioh Vs Leenock and Coca Vs Leenock are pretty epic series.
So what you're really saying is... "Hey MarineKing, I'mma let you finish, but Leenock had some of the best mirror matches of all time. Of all time!"
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On April 07 2011 07:08 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 05:47 tripper688 wrote:On April 07 2011 04:50 MrCon wrote:
Terran is in the same situation now where protoss was 2+ months ago.
Remember, there was a giant QQ protoss thread in the sc2general section (like 700 pages xD)
At this time, people thought that gateway units were weak, that the void ray nerf made it useless, that sentries only purpose was to FF their ramp defensively, and more. In fact, this was just a case of "learn to play".
From there, and without any buff (obs cost and phoenix time), the matchup went from very terran favored to very protoss favored. (remember the first GSL when every protoss died from the first terran 2 marauders 1 marine push ?) At this time I was always rooting for protoss, because a protoss win was always a good, hard fought game.
Then MC has arrived (must read with broodwar carrier voice xD). He started dismantling terrans with early pushes. He reversed the state of the matchup. Before him, "protoss weak early and strong late" was common knowledge. After him, terran is weak early, because terrans don't dare trying their pushes anymore, and even more, terrans are turtling in early game, in fear of dying to a sentry push.
This protoss domination exist for like 2 months, and now I always root for terrans in TvP because I know a terran win will always be a good, hard fought game. MVP and MKP opened the road in their ro4, but their builds are still not really refined, and every (yes, every (in fact not, MKP won one game with his 1 base marine tank banshee push, not really a long term viable build imo) game they won was games were they just played standard and managed to defeat an early push, and be ahead thanx to this. We still haven't seen anything that can make us think that they "solved" the matchup.
But at least we know now that this is again a case of "learn to play". We know that in the next weeks, leaded by MVP and MKP, terran players strategy will evolve, with no (or minimal) patching, so they can regain their momentum in the matchup. Then it will be protoss turn again. Where was this sense of waiting for the MU to evolve and change and having players learning to play when Blizzard was piling on terran nerf after terran nerf in their patches and GOM introducing huge 1v1 maps? It's great that we seem to finally have moved away from the "OMG FOTM IS IMBA NERF NERF NERF NOW!" mentality but a part of me has to wonder how much of the current state of T is a result of patching and how much of it is a result of other players solving the older play style of T. You said it yourself, the MVP and MKP games were in no way an indication that T has solved P in any way...all the wins from T were either the result of failed early aggression on the part of P or very strong 1 base mid game push which, again like you said, doesn't seem to be a very viable strategy for the long term. Even during the dark days of Protoss, it seemed to be accepted that late game P (however hard it may be for P to reach late game) was where things generally evened out. In comparison, efficient use of force fields and a slew of patches has effectively mitigated the strength of the Terran early game while arguably buffing the Protoss late game (yes amulet nerf hurts but there have been buffs to VR, Chargelots, Phoenix, and observers). Nothing from terran, that really matters in PvT was nerfed. Not MM, not stim bonus, not Banshees or Raven spells.
At the risk of picking nits, Stim got a nerf, albeit a small one, and the bunker nerf cost MK the Tal'Darim Altar game, even if he deserves the blame.
But TvP is certainly not unwinnable or anything.
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You know, with all that terran QQing, terran have already solved MC's infamous sentry push. Rush to tanks. That is why MC and San only did 4 or 3-gate rushes instead of the 2 base 5 gate-rushes because by then the tank would have siege mode and the push would not work. It was only because terran was greedy with fast expand and a false sense of security thinkking 1-2 bunkers with a couple marauders is enough to stop protoss from harassing them that they got owned by MC because none of the other toss players thought "you know what, two or three bunkers aren't enough to stop an early 2 base push with tons of well placed sentries".
With the recent HT nerf, it makes protoss a lot less mobile and a lot harder to defend a million bases like san was able to in the past so really, stop QQing. It is just a matter of time before people come up with counters, like the MC rush that seemed unstoppable at first.
You people complaining about imbalance (and I mean that for all 3 races) as if it's affecting your ladder play. I'm 100% sure it isn't. You see some game in a tournament and your favorite player loses and you cry imba. I just look at your posts and I pity you. You are so sad and you don't even know it.
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Hopefully, the mech trend will push some protoss to produce some Carriers. That would be interesting....
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You're implying Toss is strongest is ridiculous - it should be according to blizzard, but it's not.
Terran is least played race and has more tournament wins, makes up majority of top 20 in ladders. Don't let a couple tournaments and exceptional play fool you real numbers suggest otherwise.
Well of course Toss units are supposed to be the strongest (and they are -- cost for cost they're the most efficient, which is part of the Protoss race design), but my opinion as to Protoss generally dominating tournaments recently (I believe 5 of the last 7 in the latest MLG, 3 of the final 4 in the March GSL, 9 of the 16 incoming Code A players, etc.) is not without merit and seems to be a continuing trend since the introduction of the larger GSL maps.
If you watched the tournament bracket selection show for the Korea/Foreigner GSL tournament, you'll see that when asked, most Terrans/Zergs said that they didn't want to face a Protoss.
Also, I believe that Zerg is, by far, the least played race. Previously Terran was the most played, but Protoss overtook it at some point. Overall, Terran has the most tournament wins, as it was very strong on the older, smaller ladder maps and needed to be nerfed down a bit over the past few patches (siege tank DPS nerf in 1.1, worker repair priority bug fix in 1.2, and bunker build time increase in 1.1 & 1.3), especially to protect zerg from all-ins. Terrans performed well primarily because they could often dictate the early game on smaller maps.
I believe the most likely reasons why Protoss has won more in tournaments lately are 1) Map pool, and 2) Discovery (primarily by MC) of how to more effectively use sentries to control DPS, especially vs. Zerg. The ladder map pool, unfortunately, still has some terribly small maps that allow for close position spawns, so I would expect Terran to perform better on the ladder.
The discussion is really moot however, as ultimately I think David Kim (thank god he plays random!) has the final say in balance changes and I don't believe he takes into consideration how much one race is complaining about this or that.
I just hope that Blizz adopts the GSL map pool entirely for ladder and disposes of the small maps, and then balances the game accordingly. [BTW, I play random and often cheer for whatever race I think is "down" at any time, so like, definitely Zerg in ZvP].
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On April 07 2011 07:50 kiniko wrote:
You know, with all that terran QQing, terran have already solved MC's infamous sentry push. Rush to tanks. That is why MC and San only did 4 or 3-gate rushes instead of the 2 base 5 gate-rushes because by then the tank would have siege mode and the push would not work. It was only because terran was greedy with fast expand and a false sense of security thinkking 1-2 bunkers with a couple marauders is enough to stop protoss from harassing them that they got owned by MC because none of the other toss players thought "you know what, two or three bunkers aren't enough to stop an early 2 base push with tons of well placed sentries".
With the recent HT nerf, it makes protoss a lot less mobile and a lot harder to defend a million bases like san was able to in the past so really, stop QQing. It is just a matter of time before people come up with counters, like the MC rush that seemed unstoppable at first.
You people complaining about imbalance (and I mean that for all 3 races) as if it's affecting your ladder play. I'm 100% sure it isn't. You see some game in a tournament and your favorite player loses and you cry imba. I just look at your posts and I pity you. You are so sad and you don't even know it.
I can't speak for others, but imbalance bothers me because of its effects on the viewing experience, not on my play. I assume that's not all that uncommon. My own play doesn't change if such-and-such MU is broken at the highest level, because I'm nowhere near the highest level yet, but it does bother me as a fan of the game.
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On April 07 2011 07:50 kiniko wrote:
You know, with all that terran QQing, terran have already solved MC's infamous sentry push. Rush to tanks. That is why MC and San only did 4 or 3-gate rushes instead of the 2 base 5 gate-rushes because by then the tank would have siege mode and the push would not work. It was only because terran was greedy with fast expand and a false sense of security thinkking 1-2 bunkers with a couple marauders is enough to stop protoss from harassing them that they got owned by MC because none of the other toss players thought "you know what, two or three bunkers aren't enough to stop an early 2 base push with tons of well placed sentries".
With the recent HT nerf, it makes protoss a lot less mobile and a lot harder to defend a million bases like san was able to in the past so really, stop QQing. It is just a matter of time before people come up with counters, like the MC rush that seemed unstoppable at first.
You people complaining about imbalance (and I mean that for all 3 races) as if it's affecting your ladder play. I'm 100% sure it isn't. You see some game in a tournament and your favorite player loses and you cry imba. I just look at your posts and I pity you. You are so sad and you don't even know it.
How can you say it's already been "solved"? MC didn't do the sentry bust against MKP, san has never done the sentry bust and we have yet to see anyone sucessfuly hold the MC style sentry bust.
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On April 07 2011 07:50 kiniko wrote:
You know, with all that terran QQing, terran have already solved MC's infamous sentry push. Rush to tanks. That is why MC and San only did 4 or 3-gate rushes instead of the 2 base 5 gate-rushes because by then the tank would have siege mode and the push would not work. It was only because terran was greedy with fast expand and a false sense of security thinkking 1-2 bunkers with a couple marauders is enough to stop protoss from harassing them that they got owned by MC because none of the other toss players thought "you know what, two or three bunkers aren't enough to stop an early 2 base push with tons of well placed sentries".
With the recent HT nerf, it makes protoss a lot less mobile and a lot harder to defend a million bases like san was able to in the past so really, stop QQing. It is just a matter of time before people come up with counters, like the MC rush that seemed unstoppable at first.
You people complaining about imbalance (and I mean that for all 3 races) as if it's affecting your ladder play. I'm 100% sure it isn't. You see some game in a tournament and your favorite player loses and you cry imba. I just look at your posts and I pity you. You are so sad and you don't even know it.
We're talking about balance but only from an historical and theoretic (is that a word ? = theory) standpoint here. I've seen no one QQing iirc before your post :o
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In comparison, efficient use of force fields and a slew of patches has effectively mitigated the strength of the Terran early game while arguably buffing the Protoss late game (yes amulet nerf hurts but there have been buffs to VR, Chargelots, Phoenix, and observers).
Protoss' best buff, IMO, was the 1.2 Hallucination research time/cost decrease. Hallucinated phoenix scouting is fast, cheap, and effective, and IMO gives Protoss the best scouting in the game, especially for large GSL maps with large bases where tech can be hidden.
Zerg's sacrificial overlord(s) often get picked off before they can see important tech, especially vs. Protoss because stalkers take out overlords so much faster than marines do. Terran basically needs to use scans, which are great for so many things, but they often don't catch hidden tech, and terran air units are slow.
Cheap/quick hallucination also makes avoiding robotics viable if the plan is for a mid-game gateway timing push. I also think it played a part in the KA removal, as Protoss was more often skipping colossus and jumping straight into KA HT's without building a stargate or robotics. Zerg and Terran can't jump into their tier 3 nearly as quickly while still staying alive.
Also, with hallucination, Protoss gateway units are able to scout, defend ramps, control battle DPS, trap units, harass/snipe with the most mobile massed ground units, and tank damage while dealing high melee DPS. Then they have loads of options for more direct counters or crazy efficient AoE DPS against any enemy composition that they scout. Rapid shield recharge means that often one won battle wins the game (for instance, MVP had already lost game 2 after losing his bio-tank army in the early-mid game).
Terran, though, definitely needed a few select nerfs (esp the damn SCV repair priority bug) and got them.
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I don't normally root for MC, but it's a little disappointing that we won't be getting the MVP vs MC super final.
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EPT
