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On April 06 2011 02:58 sqrt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 02:13 HowSoOnIsNow wrote:
MKP is the new YellOw, the king of silvers, he's not gonna the championship, as usual. Great matches against MC. Now, we just need a Zerg to do the same... If he is going to be YellOw he has to win the gold here, don't forget, YellOw is the "Special Event King", if he takes silvers everywhere then he'll be Stork.
At least Stork won an Osl!!! But seriously, i'd be depressed to lose yet another tournament if I were MKP. At least he takes it with a pinch of humour.
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On April 06 2011 05:53 beat farm wrote:
i thought the liquidbet of san and Mc was really safe and today was going to help my like 30% correct liquid bets. i got owned again i should start flipping a coin so i can at least get 50% correct.
You thought betting against MVP was safe?
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On April 06 2011 06:13 dabom88 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 05:53 beat farm wrote:
i thought the liquidbet of san and Mc was really safe and today was going to help my like 30% correct liquid bets. i got owned again i should start flipping a coin so i can at least get 50% correct. You thought betting against MVP was safe?
MVP is pulling out of a slump. he has been bad vs P lately and this is the first time he proved he could beat a P since his slump, and San is possibly the second best protoss. so yeah i felt like it was a really safe bet.
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On April 06 2011 05:06 dunc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 04:27 JJH777 wrote:On April 06 2011 02:50 underdawg wrote:
MC took back what he said against foreigners. when has idra taken back anything? IdrA took back saying Nestea was bad. Because he looked like an idiot saying it and everyone laughed at him for it yes. Meanwhile he still thinks July is bad while July is about 5 times better than him. I don't mind MC being cocky, he has a fun factor to himself and he's not like Idra. He can back it up because he's actually one of the best players in the world and on top of that when he loses he actually gives credit to his opponents(he even gave credit to July) instead of blaming it on excuses and always bringing up balance.
right, I don't mind MC being cocky too. It's just fun, after the game he's a very nice person again.
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On April 06 2011 01:30 Arwanto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 21:51 IVN wrote:
So, not one Toss is QQing about imba Terra/stim/MMM...
I bet, had MC rolled MKP 3:0, this thread would be 500+ pages long, and at least 80% of the posts would have been whining about FFs, Colossi, warpgates, and so on.
I'm really proud for being a Protoss player. Protoss = guys with balls. T/Z = constantly whining "old wives". why should protoss whines when they got better units and mechanics ? lol ... anyway nice back and forth games by MKP though he's gonna lose but he manages to get it back into the game especially in g3 when the void & proxy pylon spawns zealots ... he manages to escape from the deathly GG
Better mechanics huh? Yea mule/scan/instant supply is pretty weak when compared to lategame chronoboost.
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I am protoss player but I am so happy for marine king ! Such a baller !
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On April 06 2011 04:38 underdawg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 04:07 Lobotomist wrote:
I can't decide if I want MKP to win, cuz he produces awesome games and has worked really hard, or lose in continuation of his streak of second places as punishment for the invention of the 2 rax build in gsl 2. i haven't seen much of season 2, but i think he has served his penance by fast expanding 90% of the time.
watsdis? mkp serving penance for season 2? lol. that was an amazing season and what got me hooked on esports. i suppose unlike a lot of people here i didn't use to watch tourney's (BW was before my... err--- current free time). but MKP was amazing in season two, he has nothing to do penance for.
plus even if he wins second and doesn't beat mvp, as long as it's not a rape i'm fine with it. after all, he did reverse all-kill MC to do his job and get second.  he's got enough second places to be very comfortable.
that said, i want him to beat MVP dammit!!! :D
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On April 06 2011 06:21 beat farm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 06:13 dabom88 wrote:On April 06 2011 05:53 beat farm wrote:
i thought the liquidbet of san and Mc was really safe and today was going to help my like 30% correct liquid bets. i got owned again i should start flipping a coin so i can at least get 50% correct. You thought betting against MVP was safe? MVP is pulling out of a slump. he has been bad vs P lately and this is the first time he proved he could beat a P since his slump, and San is possibly the second best protoss. so yeah i felt like it was a really safe bet.
Then I guess you've learned that betting against MVP can never truly be considered "safe". MVP will always put up a fight.
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I'm really surprised that the Terrans took both TvP's (even though MVP is probably the most skilled SC2 player in the world) given the current state of the metagame.
In both series, we saw the Protoss players going for heavy early 4 gate pressure in half of the games and some beautiful defense by MVP & MKP (particularly MKP's Game 3 defense).
I'm surprised particularly at MC, because was 2-0'd recently in the FXOpen by Cloud (a terran) because he decided to just go for 4 gate all-ins, and Cloud defended. Considering that TvP swings even more in P's favor the longer the game goes, not trying for a macro game in game 5 (because of the absurdly long rush distance) was a poor decision.
I'm really impressed with MKP (aside from his poor decision in Game 1 to not attack up MC's ramp when he was still producing on only 1 wg) -- this is a guy who had a set style that worked, then was figured out by MVP in the January GSL, and he performed poorly in the recent GSTL's. Now he'll go for mech, or a 1-1-1 all-in, and sometimes still for marine heavy play with the sickest Terran micro around (aside from perhaps MVP).
On the other hand, MC has become quite predictable. Honestly, I think MVP & NesTea are still a step above MC, especially when it comes to decision making. MC is the best Protoss at a time when Protoss has been winning almost everything, and he has an impeccable early game. But we haven't seen him in a lot of mid & late game situations -- he seems to no longer be invincible if you can get him past the point of crushing you with gateway units. The one game July took on him was where he went for early stargate instead of a 4-6 wg push. Mvp beat him quite easily in the February GSTL with a 2 base timing push. Then he pumped way too many probes off of 2 base on Xel'Naga vs. MKP when his obs scouted MKP going for a one base push that was basically all-in.
He's still a top 5 overall player, but he might need a MKP reinvention of his play style, particularly given that he's expecting a Protoss gateway-related nerf in 1.4 (based on his interview after winning the March GSL).
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On April 06 2011 07:08 dabom88 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 06:21 beat farm wrote:On April 06 2011 06:13 dabom88 wrote:On April 06 2011 05:53 beat farm wrote:
i thought the liquidbet of san and Mc was really safe and today was going to help my like 30% correct liquid bets. i got owned again i should start flipping a coin so i can at least get 50% correct. You thought betting against MVP was safe? MVP is pulling out of a slump. he has been bad vs P lately and this is the first time he proved he could beat a P since his slump, and San is possibly the second best protoss. so yeah i felt like it was a really safe bet. Then I guess you've learned that betting against MVP can never truly be considered "safe". MVP will always put up a fight.
MVP in a BO5 is almost auto-vote.
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MVP in a BO5 is almost auto-vote.
Agreed. What's crazy about it is that he isn't just winning at one matchup. He beat two of the best Protoss players in the world at his worst matchup, and did so in a variety of ways. It's not like he's using some nearly unstoppable timing attack over and over again.
And he took out July, an amazing ZvT player, with some really brilliant micro & macro.
And he hasn't even gotten his best matchup, TvT, until the finals. Poor MKP -- I'd love to see him win but MVP has a 90%+ winrate in this matchup, and I'll bet that MVP is still in his head from the 4-0 in January.
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On April 06 2011 05:34 Sevenofnines wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 05:00 IVN wrote:
Well, equivalent to the way it is in the respective races. Toss stim from core and terran colossus after armory. Terran would easily survive this. Warpgate research already takes 140 seconds and most of the Warpgate rushes finish this in a little over 5 minutes into the game. You now have to research Stimpack on top of this, adding another 170 seconds. You probably don't have an expo down yet, so you won't be able to Chronoboost through both upgrades even if you saved up a full energy Nexus, forcing you to eat the full brunt of research time. To give you an idea of how long that 170 seconds of game time is, the Terran can make a CC AND morph it into a PF in just 150 seconds. Accounting for research time, your attack would probably hit around 8:30-9 minutes by which time Terran would have more than enough to crush your rush. Now you could go double Core and research both at once, but that's basically a Gateway you lost by making another Core, and that will cut your attack force substantially when you consider the production cycles you lost. Either way, Terran easily holds and your mid and late game strength is severely gutted from losing Colossi and HT's.
that is strange, did you take into account that protoss player now has zealots that you cannot kite and that do twice the dps and stalkers also twice the dps. Frankly I do not see 2-base 6-gate push to be stoppable by terran.
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On April 06 2011 07:08 Zinthar wrote:
I'm really surprised that the Terrans took both TvP's (even though MVP is probably the most skilled SC2 player in the world) given the current state of the metagame.
In both series, we saw the Protoss players going for heavy early 4 gate pressure in half of the games and some beautiful defense by MVP & MKP (particularly MKP's Game 3 defense).
I'm surprised particularly at MC, because was 2-0'd recently in the FXOpen by Cloud (a terran) because he decided to just go for 4 gate all-ins, and Cloud defended. Considering that TvP swings even more in P's favor the longer the game goes, not trying for a macro game in game 5 (because of the absurdly long rush distance) was a poor decision.
I'm really impressed with MKP (aside from his poor decision in Game 1 to not attack up MC's ramp when he was still producing on only 1 wg) -- this is a guy who had a set style that worked, then was figured out by MVP in the January GSL, and he performed poorly in the recent GSTL's. Now he'll go for mech, or a 1-1-1 all-in, and sometimes still for marine heavy play with the sickest Terran micro around (aside from perhaps MVP).
On the other hand, MC has become quite predictable. Honestly, I think MVP & NesTea are still a step above MC, especially when it comes to decision making. MC is the best Protoss at a time when Protoss has been winning almost everything, and he has an impeccable early game. But we haven't seen him in a lot of mid & late game situations -- he seems to no longer be invincible if you can get him past the point of crushing you with gateway units. The one game July took on him was where he went for early stargate instead of a 4-6 wg push. Mvp beat him quite easily in the February GSTL with a 2 base timing push. Then he pumped way too many probes off of 2 base on Xel'Naga vs. MKP when his obs scouted MKP going for a one base push that was basically all-in.
He's still a top 5 overall player, but he might need a MKP reinvention of his play style, particularly given that he's expecting a Protoss gateway-related nerf in 1.4 (based on his interview after winning the March GSL).
What, the 6g/sentry bust is a mid-game push. He doesn't need to do anything new yet, he outright kills them with it or does enough damage.
The one game July won was because MC expected a frontal hydra bust, notice how he put up several more cannons, instead July was dropping, and he still almost held it with only sentries.
The game against mvp was just a failed DT rush, similar to g5 in todays set he was too far behind in the earlygame and just got rolled.
I still don't understand how you can call him predictable, I believe he did a different opener almost every game and we don't see him in many late-game situations because his opponents usually die before it gets there, but you can watch his games vs Byun in s5
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On April 05 2011 22:51 kusto wrote:Show nested quote +
Anyway, like I said earlier you seem like the type of person who just judges someone based off their surface persona rather than how they actually are. But since you likely began with a bad impression of MC in the first place by just seeing him act cocky with interviews, it's understandable that you'd be very predisposed to disliking him.
Can we please stop pretending to know the "true personality" of pro-gamers? This would make it a lot easier. So you really think that you know MC on another level than...someone who also reads his interviews or watches GSL games? Who are you anyway to define the "surface persona" of a pro-gamer unless you (you, not other guys whose interviews you read) have RL-contact with him? And yes, i judge them on how they treat / communicate with other people.
I've heard very nice things about MC from Jinro and Huk. It's strange how you try to fault me for using indirect (non-RL) evidence to make an assessment of MC's character when you're doing exactly the same thing. What's the difference between using his interviews (what you're doing) and using statements from people who do know him in real life, his background actions that are caught on camera in the GSL (such as being the first to congratulate/comfort Jinro), and his tweets? It's all indirect stuff that we evaluate to form an opinion of MC's character. I don't pretend to know his true personality. I simply trust the various things I've seen from him as an accurate assessment of his personality, assuming that everything he's doing, from his friendship with our foreigners to his tweets to his on-screen actions isn't all just a big act.
Seems like the only difference between what you're doing and what I'm doing is that I consider the interviews and everything else, while you seem to be stuck solely on the interviews and the cocky, arrogant persona that he exudes in those interviews, rather than plenty of other positive traits that we see from other sources that balances out that persona. You judge him on how he treats and communicates with others? Then why are you only judging MC by his interviews alone, and not bothering to consider how he treats his friends and fans, for example? There are plenty of other criteria for judging how someone treats/communicates with others besides solely interviews. Like others said, MC takes his losses in stride and only faults himself for his failures. That doesn't sound like an arrogant, cocky asshole to me - that sounds like a very reasonable person who, like I said before, just uses that persona to help boost his own confidence.
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On April 06 2011 07:08 Zinthar wrote:
I'm really impressed with MKP (aside from his poor decision in Game 1 to not attack up MC's ramp when he was still producing on only 1 wg) -- this is a guy who had a set style that worked, then was figured out by MVP in the January GSL, and he performed poorly in the recent GSTL's. Now he'll go for mech, or a 1-1-1 all-in, and sometimes still for marine heavy play with the sickest Terran micro around (aside from perhaps MVP).
I dunno.... I don't think micro-wise MKP can be beat by anyone, even MVP.
MVPs decision making and macro are probably better than MKP, but In all the games vs. MC I didn't see MKP make a micro or control mistake once, and in the later games he held some incredibly strong pushes by virtue of that.
MVP on the other hand, while his micro is good, slips occasionally. And that last engagement with San, while superbly played by MVP, imo was more about positioning and the fact that San neglected to micro his stalkers and colossi against the vikings than exquisite micro on MVP's part (though he did do the standard things well, like focus down colossi, EMP, and stutter step back to kite zealots and get out of colossi range).
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What just happened? I saw MC destroy MKP's builds this morning... take a 2-0 lead... then had to go to work... Now that I'm back... I see this!?!?!?
WOW! Can't wait to watch the VOD's!
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On April 06 2011 07:47 catabowl wrote:
What just happened? I saw MC destroy MKP's builds this morning... take a 2-0 lead... then had to go to work... Now that I'm back... I see this!?!?!?
WOW! Can't wait to watch the VOD's!
And the Vods are HD & free!
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On April 06 2011 07:03 haruk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 04:38 underdawg wrote:On April 06 2011 04:07 Lobotomist wrote:
I can't decide if I want MKP to win, cuz he produces awesome games and has worked really hard, or lose in continuation of his streak of second places as punishment for the invention of the 2 rax build in gsl 2. i haven't seen much of season 2, but i think he has served his penance by fast expanding 90% of the time. watsdis? mkp serving penance for season 2? lol. that was an amazing season and what got me hooked on esports. i suppose unlike a lot of people here i didn't use to watch tourney's (BW was before my... err--- current free time). but MKP was amazing in season two, he has nothing to do penance for. plus even if he wins second and doesn't beat mvp, as long as it's not a rape i'm fine with it. after all, he did reverse all-kill MC to do his job and get second. he's got enough second places to be very comfortable. that said, i want him to beat MVP dammit!!! :D
yah as a MKP fan, i'm a little annoyed when people call him an all-iner and stuff. this kid was born to fast expand
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Oh god... I expected MVP to win... but what am I seeing.. MKP beating the kratoss?!?!.. I HAVE to see this happen.
MKP... prepare to enter the kong line.
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On April 06 2011 07:33 jcarlson08 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 07:08 Zinthar wrote:
I'm really impressed with MKP (aside from his poor decision in Game 1 to not attack up MC's ramp when he was still producing on only 1 wg) -- this is a guy who had a set style that worked, then was figured out by MVP in the January GSL, and he performed poorly in the recent GSTL's. Now he'll go for mech, or a 1-1-1 all-in, and sometimes still for marine heavy play with the sickest Terran micro around (aside from perhaps MVP).
I dunno.... I don't think micro-wise MKP can be beat by anyone, even MVP. MVPs decision making and macro are probably better than MKP, but In all the games vs. MC I didn't see MKP make a micro or control mistake once, and in the later games he held some incredibly strong pushes by virtue of that. MVP on the other hand, while his micro is good, slips occasionally. And that last engagement with San, while superbly played by MVP, imo was more about positioning and the fact that San neglected to micro his stalkers and colossi against the vikings than exquisite micro on MVP's part (though he did do the standard things well, like focus down colossi, EMP, and stutter step back to kite zealots and get out of colossi range).
MVP is the only player who gives me nerdgasms with his amazing plays. Well, aside from his slump into code a when he lost his up/down matches without showing anything. Even in the finals against MKP in january which everybody apparently hated, i felt like the games were awesome simply because how impeccably MVP played. I still have that vision of his army movements on Meta where he countered perfectly MKP's gold command center, then scanned in a perfect place to predict MKP's counterattack, positioned his split army perfectly, etc.
Against San he had these two wow moments, where he lifted his CC to let his bio maneuver around forcefields, which seems to be a "simple" idea, but it's just super creative and it's that level of creativity that I have not seen from any other sc2 player. And his final battle in game 4 on xel'naga was jaw dropping.
Also, I remember very well the decisive game he actually lost to MMA in the last GSTL. Despite the loss (which was primarily due to unscouted gold expo), the creativity and precision of his TvT maneuvers in that game was like watching a chess world champion play a super creative game.
I actually wish MVP played protoss because I *think* that his recent slump was largely caused by his frustration in TvP. Being a supremely talented player he (again, a conjecture on my part) found himself in a position where he didn't see solid strategies on these new big maps that would allow him to complete against protoss in lategame. And again being a supremely talented player he felt like he was forced to "cheese" his TvP's by doing mid-game bio pushes. I think at heart he really likes playing terran as it "should" be played, with good variety of units and strategies.
Anyway, that was my fanboy's MVP rant.. The original point was that I think no matter how good MKP's micro is, MVP is just a beast on another level (that is unless he's in a slump :o)
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EPT
