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On October 26 2010 05:41 Sixes wrote:Well, to not theory craft, go check who won Blizzcon. There were big Zergs in attendance (Dimaga, Sen) and it was double elimination (so less of a chance of just losing to cheese). Not sayign balance is perfect but clearly someone has figured out how to beat Zergs. + Show Spoiler +
The GSL isn't much of an indicator because the Zerg who got there were good enough to beat their way through the preliminaries pre-patch and they (along with Boxer, Nada and all the big names) just crushed the 1 basing Terrans they were set up against in Ro64.
Now in Ro32 things are changing. Check got a free pass (SanZenith playing terribly is not patch related), Idra just plays super well but there are Zergs falling when they aren't playing very very well. I very much doubt we will have a ZvZ final. There are Terrans in the GSL who know how to macro (they were a minority but they are getting through) and there are Protoss who know how to macro. Those players are going to give the Zergs some serious trouble. As for those who got there with 1 base all ins or a 2 base timing and no real macro ability, let them learn the game properly if they want to compete at that level.
Um you realize outside of zvz that zerg is 3 and 1 so far which about matches the ro64 match? There are still tons of zerg games to go but your reply is basically things are changing so far this round pheonix lost(to a very capable sangho).
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I think the best indicator of balance is to see who qualifies into the Ro64 for GSL 3 -- if we see a fairly equal split of all three races, then we can say (roughly) that the races are balanced
reason: qualifiers for GSL 2 were done on 1.1.1 not the latest patch
even if we get something like 30 Z, 20 P, 14 T, this still indicates that there are players good enough to qualify with a "weak" race. at this point, skill levels still differ wildly between players, so it is almost impossible to determine the strength of each race - I would say that the racial matchups are something like 40% figured out compared to BW, where a wrong BO pretty much leads to auto loss - we don't see that happening nearly as much in SC2 because the game is still so young
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Keep in mind that the patch hit right before the tournament. There hasn't been much time at all for players to adjust to the changes so it's not a huge surprise to see terran players look a little confused during these games.
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Are there any other sites than Gom where you can watch vods of idras matches? Much appreciated if anyone could link.
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On October 26 2010 07:03 SimpleHarmonicMotion wrote:
Are there any other sites than Gom where you can watch vods of idras matches? Much appreciated if anyone could link.
hey man i don't want to look for the link of where this discussion took place, But i think TL has come to the conclusion that they support GOMtv and paying is worth the price. therefore they don't post links up to unofficial VOD streams to my knowledge.
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fair enough, a bit sad though as I can't afford stuff like that
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It costs like $20 US. Its not that expensive...
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Check liquibet, nada and ensare vs z in ro16. We are going to see some terrans win, i think. Even check vs rainbow might be pretty close if rainbow manages to adapt (he won last time they met in GSL, albeit that was pre zerg-buff/terran-nerf).
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On October 26 2010 07:32 a_flayer wrote:
Check liquibet, nada and ensare vs z in ro16. We are going to see some terrans win, i think. Even check vs rainbow might be pretty close if rainbow manages to adapt (he won last time they met in GSL, albeit that was pre zerg-buff/terran-nerf).
He'll win again. Check doesn't have that great macro imo whenever I watch him play a macro game he always has a ton of resources. Maybe i'm just unlucky when watching him play but I feel ITR will just crush him again.
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Tomorrow will be the day when 4 Zergs will get kicked out of the GSL.
MVP vs Zenio
ZergBong vs IrOn
TheWinD vs Maka
Loner vs Terious
:-/ not because of balance issues...
Anyway I want to see some TvZ with strong players on each side.
There are some awesome TvZ in the line, first of all Check against Rainbow rematch (so awesome to see rematches :D) and probably Idra v. MVP/Fruitdealer v. Ensnare and Rainbow
=)
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I love the role reversal. At GSL 1, it was T saying Z needs to l2p and it was T bringing up isolated examples of certain pro Zs beating other Ts, while Zs were complaining about T being OP, saying those isolated examples were outliers, and that it was 100% certain the finals would be a TvT. Now its Z saying T needs to l2p, bringing up isolated examples of T pros macroing against Z, while T players say Z is now OP and that a Z will win GSL 2 for sure. Gotta love the drama.
Also, is it weird that I have more respect for Idra now that his name is Grack? Go Grack!
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MVP > Zenio
IrOn > ZergBong
Maka > TheWinD
Loner > Terious
gogo liquibet!
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Why don't we see more mass turrets like in BW.
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On October 26 2010 06:25 bigjenk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 05:41 Sixes wrote:Well, to not theory craft, go check who won Blizzcon. There were big Zergs in attendance (Dimaga, Sen) and it was double elimination (so less of a chance of just losing to cheese). Not sayign balance is perfect but clearly someone has figured out how to beat Zergs. + Show Spoiler +
The GSL isn't much of an indicator because the Zerg who got there were good enough to beat their way through the preliminaries pre-patch and they (along with Boxer, Nada and all the big names) just crushed the 1 basing Terrans they were set up against in Ro64.
Now in Ro32 things are changing. Check got a free pass (SanZenith playing terribly is not patch related), Idra just plays super well but there are Zergs falling when they aren't playing very very well. I very much doubt we will have a ZvZ final. There are Terrans in the GSL who know how to macro (they were a minority but they are getting through) and there are Protoss who know how to macro. Those players are going to give the Zergs some serious trouble. As for those who got there with 1 base all ins or a 2 base timing and no real macro ability, let them learn the game properly if they want to compete at that level.
Um you realize outside of zvz that zerg is 3 and 1 so far which about matches the ro64 match? There are still tons of zerg games to go but your reply is basically things are changing so far this round pheonix lost(to a very capable sangho).
I agree, but watching the Zerg games I really don't see a single case of "The patch made that game go the other way". The Idra game was just as dominated as the Nada one (and for a lot of the same reasons, map control, game sense and great macro work).
Those stats are also very likely to change tomorrow when we have the good Terran players against Zerg.
My point is that when the good players end up against each other the games seem relatively balanced. It so happens that given the overabundance of Terrans initially the Good T and P have been mostly matched against other Terrans. Once they start hitting the Zerg we will see some dead Zergs.
As for the muta defense 1 thor stops clumped mutas and 3-4 turrets or 5-10 marines force mutas to clump. This means that 4 turrets and a thor make your base perfectly safe (for a full 6 supply). If you are gas locked, jut spam turrets, it takes more than 3-4 as the muta count goes up but Zerg really can't afford to run into 8 turrets with mutas.
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On October 26 2010 07:55 Reason.SC2 wrote:
MVP > Zenio
IrOn > ZergBong
Maka > TheWinD
Loner > Terious
gogo liquibet!
I went the exact opposite 
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On October 26 2010 08:07 TitleRug wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 07:55 Reason.SC2 wrote:
MVP > Zenio
IrOn > ZergBong
Maka > TheWinD
Loner > Terious
gogo liquibet! I went the exact opposite
You will lose that bet more than you win it.
There may be 1 Zerg win tomorrow but I really doubt we will see even two unless some of these players play way better than they have shown yet (or their opponents play much worse).
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Yep, I feel like tonight will be a rough night for Zergs 
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On October 26 2010 08:01 Polygamy wrote:
Why don't we see more mass turrets like in BW.
Depends, what do you mean, like at the mineral line?
It's hard to do it really, it's kind of silly to, too. Since they're more expensive now and seemingly take up more room so there's less space to fit them in. Main reason is cost, since if you build three straight off and he only ever builds his like first 9 mutas, you've spent loads of minerals you could of spent on marines which can move around.
I generally add on turrets if needs must, so if he constantly improves his muta count, but I think it mainly comes down to cost as they can't shoot ground, so if he doesn't stick with mutas it's a bad investment.
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sigh more people giving "professional" advice about zerg imbalance because idra beat a terran.
I have to say watching after watching the games. GON was just outplayed, especially game 2. He went helion harass and did very little damage. Then he pushed out with a very small force against like 18 roaches and got caught unsieged
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I just watched today's GSL games.
Poor SanZenith had too much pressure on his shoulders.
I'm happy that Nada won.
I would love to see Idra's ZvZ post-patch.
I think that the balance comments in this thread are hilarious and pathetic.
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EPT
