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On August 23 2010 03:46 Silver~Guy wrote:
Thanks for hosting the tournament, though I am disappointed with the admins ruling about the semi-finals.
Look at the 3rd place match between Tarson and Dimaga at the ESL earlier today. 2-1 in Dimaga favour, Tarson drops due to BNET, refs unsure who was winning and players agree to rematch.
Why would they do that?
"Who wants to stiff someone with a rule to win an important match?" is a better question.
In the end, what goes around comes around though and I think players that enter tournaments should be weary of shortcuts to the winner's circle. You never know who's watching you violate the spirit of the game.
Silver, I agree with you about the ruling, but I was stuck in a difficult position. Game 1 I allowed you to pull the win or replay the game - you asked what the ruling was and I gave you the option. The same thing happens in game 3 and ajtls was given the option.
There was no way to tell who would have won that game given the status when you (Silver) dropped. Everyone believes aj should have rematched. As a player, I believe he should have - if I were in his position, I would have rematched. However, as the admin, I have to be impartial, and he got the same option that you did.
One thing is certain - future tournaments will have a very clear set of rules to cover all of these issues. Experience is a great teacher, and it is unfortunate that this happened after you allowed a replay in G1.
In short/TLDR;
Players will often do whatever they can to win, especially if they feel threatened or are not confident in their own abilities.
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I want to apologize. I can see alot happened last night. I came home from a tournament and was a bit intoxicated...So I was really in no position to be commentating, which is why I let Cat and Tofu and Kenny do all the commentating. I was gonna go to bed..had said good night to the guys at RageQuit Tv who were also commentating the event...Then decided I'd try to wake up and be there if needed...so I went to restart my pc cause it was having issues and it was completely blue screen loop. So I had no way to come back and assist for anything during the tournament. I went to bed, after starting the install process for my pc. Which is finishing right now. So I apologize if the rules were unclear - I will do my best to fix that for all future tournaments.
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I came back today - Reviewed everything and my personal decision - BOTH as an previous iccup admin and as someone experienced with tournaments is that both Silver and TLS need to replay the matches today or Silver gets the walk for his level of professionalism. It is in the RULES the following:
* Do not be ill mannered, bad mannered or rude to anyone involved in the tournament. Doing so will result in a disqualification, upon decision of how bad the situation was from the Tournament Admins.
* We reserve the right to refuse a player from playing in this tournament for any reason; Further more we reserve the right to disqualify a player from the tournament if they act ill mannered towards other players or towards our staff, or are suspected of cheating or any other reason deemed worthy by the admins of this tournament.
Further more - I would like to state that most of our rules were based off of the official games and such. However Cat and I are still discussing this decision and what the official decision should be. So please enjoy the rest of the tournament guys.
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At minimum, the logical decision would be to replay the game that determined who moved on from that round. A player should not be able to make a decision to allow himself a significant advantage that results in an instantaneous win that decides how a series ends OUTSIDE of playing the game. It was terrible to allow AJ the chance at a rematch at Silver's discretion only to let AJ choose to take an automatic win when the disconnect was in his favor.
Replay the final game and thus the people who watched this tournament unfold in such a terrible way not be completely and utterly disappointed at the idiocy of the ruling. No one in this situation necessarily deserves the win, but a rematch should be in order. Never let such a deciding match be determined by a disconnect that is NOT at fault by the user who disconnected.
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On August 23 2010 06:18 ICCup.Tesla wrote:
I came back today - Reviewed everything and my personal decision - BOTH as an previous iccup admin and as someone experienced with tournaments is that both Silver and TLS need to replay the matches today or Silver gets the walk for his level of professionalism. It is in the RULES the following:
* Do not be ill mannered, bad mannered or rude to anyone involved in the tournament. Doing so will result in a disqualification, upon decision of how bad the situation was from the Tournament Admins.
* We reserve the right to refuse a player from playing in this tournament for any reason; Further more we reserve the right to disqualify a player from the tournament if they act ill mannered towards other players or towards our staff, or are suspected of cheating or any other reason deemed worthy by the admins of this tournament.
Further more - I would like to state that most of our rules were based off of the official games and such. However Cat and I are unable to agree on this decision so I am backing out and letting her handle this tournament on her own. So please enjoy the rest of the tournament guys.
he wasn't being bm, he was using the rules. he was given the choice to take the w.o or replay, and he chose the w.o
this rule was almost used against him several times in this tournament, and would've been implemented every single time, since people asked you on stream in day 1, and you said its a win for whoever didn't disconnect.
he agreed to rush home to play the finals, and then he would have to leave as soon as possible.
nothing he said or did was bm, he didn't flame the admins, or silver, or anything.
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But they did allow Silver to choose either to replay or take the win and it seems a bit unfair that ajtls gets the choice just to have it revoked. I'm not saying that what ajtls did was right, but Silver had the same opportunity.
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On August 23 2010 06:25 stevarius wrote:
At minimum, the logical decision would be to replay the game that determined who moved on from that round. A player should not be able to make a decision to allow himself a significant advantage that results in an instantaneous win that decides how a series ends OUTSIDE of playing the game. It was terrible to allow AJ the chance at a rematch at Silver's discretion only to let AJ choose to take an automatic win when the disconnect was in his favor.
Replay the final game and thus the people who watched this tournament unfold in such a terrible way not be completely and utterly disappointed at the idiocy of the ruling. No one in this situation necessarily deserves the win, but a rematch should be in order. Never let such a deciding match be determined by a disconnect that is NOT at fault by the user who disconnected.
You forget that game 1 had ajtls drop - do we replay game 1? If so, do we replay the entire series? What is "fair" in this situation?
I gave Silver the option to replay or just take the win, and let him know that if he didnt want to replay game 1 it was fine, because it would go to him as a win (as a disco after 3 minutes). The same exact situation happened in game 3 - after the option was given to Silver in game 1, it would be totally ludicrous and unfair to NOT give that option to ajtls.
Game 2 was fine without any disconnections, and ajtls won that game. Do we force a replay of that one too? Again, do we force a replay of Game 1 when it was already replayed at Silvers behest?
If it was written down (and it was NOT) that players disco after 3 minutes (or 5, or 10) gives the remaining player the win, this would not be an issue. Instead, it was "admins call" - I made a call during G1, I made THE SAME CALL during G3. If I changed that call and said ajtls had to replay, that would have been favoritism.
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On August 23 2010 06:30 KamuL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 06:18 ICCup.Tesla wrote:
I came back today - Reviewed everything and my personal decision - BOTH as an previous iccup admin and as someone experienced with tournaments is that both Silver and TLS need to replay the matches today or Silver gets the walk for his level of professionalism. It is in the RULES the following:
* Do not be ill mannered, bad mannered or rude to anyone involved in the tournament. Doing so will result in a disqualification, upon decision of how bad the situation was from the Tournament Admins.
* We reserve the right to refuse a player from playing in this tournament for any reason; Further more we reserve the right to disqualify a player from the tournament if they act ill mannered towards other players or towards our staff, or are suspected of cheating or any other reason deemed worthy by the admins of this tournament.
Further more - I would like to state that most of our rules were based off of the official games and such. However Cat and I are unable to agree on this decision so I am backing out and letting her handle this tournament on her own. So please enjoy the rest of the tournament guys. he wasn't being bm, he was using the rules. he was given the choice to take the w.o or replay, and he chose the w.o this rule was almost used against him several times in this tournament, and would've been implemented every single time, since people asked you on stream in day 1, and you said its a win for whoever didn't disconnect. he agreed to rush home to play the finals, and then he would have to leave as soon as possible. nothing he said or did was bm, he didn't flame the admins, or silver, or anything.
The thing is - There was NO rule for the after 3 minutes, the players got to decide. I personally wrote the rules. The rules and judgement calls of the matches was my job. Same as all the coding and such. Cat handled the brackets, where the brackets were...Streaming and casting. Everything else was pretty much my job.
I based all my rules off of my close to 2 years at iccup and the rules used there. NEVER would this have been done there. I wont personally stand for it. Which is why we are talking about it still.
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On August 23 2010 06:33 Catreina wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 06:25 stevarius wrote:
At minimum, the logical decision would be to replay the game that determined who moved on from that round. A player should not be able to make a decision to allow himself a significant advantage that results in an instantaneous win that decides how a series ends OUTSIDE of playing the game. It was terrible to allow AJ the chance at a rematch at Silver's discretion only to let AJ choose to take an automatic win when the disconnect was in his favor.
Replay the final game and thus the people who watched this tournament unfold in such a terrible way not be completely and utterly disappointed at the idiocy of the ruling. No one in this situation necessarily deserves the win, but a rematch should be in order. Never let such a deciding match be determined by a disconnect that is NOT at fault by the user who disconnected. You forget that game 1 had ajtls drop - do we replay game 1? If so, do we replay the entire series? What is "fair" in this situation? I gave Silver the option to replay or just take the win, and let him know that if he didnt want to replay game 1 it was fine, because it would go to him as a win (as a disco after 3 minutes). The same exact situation happened in game 3 - after the option was given to Silver in game 1, it would be totally ludicrous and unfair to NOT give that option to ajtls. Game 2 was fine without any disconnections, and ajtls won that game. Do we force a replay of that one too? Again, do we force a replay of Game 1 when it was already replayed at Silvers behest? If it was written down (and it was NOT) that players disco after 3 minutes (or 5, or 10) gives the remaining player the win, this would not be an issue. Instead, it was "admins call" - I made a call during G1, I made THE SAME CALL during G3. If I changed that call and said ajtls had to replay, that would have been favoritism.
Further more - This call was NOT official until both Tournament admins/The Tournament Hosts agreeing on a decision. Especially since the finals were pushed off for today.
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its unfair to give the option to silver, then not give it to ajtls.
but when ajtls disconnected in day 1 of the tournament, people said you said that its up to the other player to decide if he wants w.o or not?
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On August 23 2010 06:33 Catreina wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 06:25 stevarius wrote:
At minimum, the logical decision would be to replay the game that determined who moved on from that round. A player should not be able to make a decision to allow himself a significant advantage that results in an instantaneous win that decides how a series ends OUTSIDE of playing the game. It was terrible to allow AJ the chance at a rematch at Silver's discretion only to let AJ choose to take an automatic win when the disconnect was in his favor.
Replay the final game and thus the people who watched this tournament unfold in such a terrible way not be completely and utterly disappointed at the idiocy of the ruling. No one in this situation necessarily deserves the win, but a rematch should be in order. Never let such a deciding match be determined by a disconnect that is NOT at fault by the user who disconnected. You forget that game 1 had ajtls drop - do we replay game 1? If so, do we replay the entire series? What is "fair" in this situation? I gave Silver the option to replay or just take the win, and let him know that if he didnt want to replay game 1 it was fine, because it would go to him as a win (as a disco after 3 minutes). The same exact situation happened in game 3 - after the option was given to Silver in game 1, it would be totally ludicrous and unfair to NOT give that option to ajtls. Game 2 was fine without any disconnections, and ajtls won that game. Do we force a replay of that one too? Again, do we force a replay of Game 1 when it was already replayed at Silvers behest? If it was written down (and it was NOT) that players disco after 3 minutes (or 5, or 10) gives the remaining player the win, this would not be an issue. Instead, it was "admins call" - I made a call during G1, I made THE SAME CALL during G3. If I changed that call and said ajtls had to replay, that would have been favoritism.
Game 1 was replayed at Silver's discretion because AJ disconnected. Silver won regardless of any factors involved in that game before the disconnection. Thus, game 1 does NOT matter in terms of replaying the whole series. It only matters in terms of determining what is logical to do in the case of game 3's disconnection. It sets precedence for the decision AJ SHOULD have made when Silver disconnected in game 3.
Did I say anything about the replay of game 2? No, I did not. No disconnect occurred and there is no controversy surrounding that win. You're trying to distract from what actually matters in determining what should have happened. Game 3 should be replayed on the basis that during the first disconnect, the person at advantage set precedence that the game would be replayed should a disconnect occur and that in game 3, there should have been a replay as well.
To Kamul: The advantage given to Silver by choice was negated and thus null and void because of his kind manners. He chose NOT to take advantage of the disconnection scenario and he set precedence. You say it's not fair to offer to Silver, but no AJ; however, Silver did not use the offering to his advantage.
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On August 23 2010 06:35 ICCup.Tesla wrote:
[The thing is - There was NO rule for the after 3 minutes, the players got to decide. I personally wrote the rules. The rules and judgement calls of the matches was my job. Same as all the coding and such. Cat handled the brackets, where the brackets were...Streaming and casting. Everything else was pretty much my job.
I based all my rules off of my close to 2 years at iccup and the rules used there. NEVER would this have been done there. I wont personally stand for it, which is why I hand over the Minerva tournament, the name and all to her. I am going to work on other tournaments but things will be much different.
You were not there. You could not make the judgement call BECAUSE you were not there. I am the co-organizer of the tournament, you were not there to make the call with me. I said I needed to talk to you about it multiple times. I told the players I needed to speak to you about it. Still, I made the call because you were not contactable.
I was in a position where I had to make a rough call. We know what you would have done, but what if I disagreed with your decision, should it have been you and not me who was in this position?
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On August 23 2010 06:41 stevarius wrote:
Game 1 was replayed at Silver's discretion because AJ disconnected. Silver won regardless of any factors involved in that game before the disconnection. Thus, game 1 does NOT matter in terms of replaying the whole series. It only matters in terms of determining what is logical to do in the case of game 3's disconnection. It sets precedence for the decision AJ SHOULD have made when Silver disconnected in game 3.
Did I say anything about the replay of game 2? No, I did not. No disconnect occurred and there is no controversy surrounding that win. You're trying to distract from what actually matters in determining what should have happened. Game 3 should be replayed on the basis that during the first disconnect, the person at advantage set precedence that the game would be replayed should a disconnect occur and that in game 3, there should have been a replay as well.
To Kamul: The advantage given to Silver by choice was negated and thus null and void because of his kind manners. He chose NOT to take advantage of the disconnection scenario and he set precedence. You say it's not fair to offer to Silver, but no AJ; however, Silver did not use the offering to his advantage.
Game 3 being replayed when the decision was originally "You get the win unless you want to replay it" - that is what was said to Silver, and that is what was said to ajtls - thinking that silver agreeing to replay requires ajtls to replay is unfair to ajtls' right (as I gave it) to NOT replay.
I have said many times I do not agree with ajtls' decision. However, being in the admin position, I am required to be impartial in my judgements. I gave Silver the option - it is unfair to change that and NOT give ajtls the option.
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On August 23 2010 06:39 KamuL wrote:
its unfair to give the option to silver, then not give it to ajtls.
but when ajtls disconnected in day 1 of the tournament, people said you said that its up to the other player to decide if he wants w.o or not?
The actual statement tesla and I made I believe (I can try to find it in vods) was "if it is over 3 minutes, the player NOT disconnected gets the win unless they both agree to replay. If it is under 3 minutes, replay."
That is what I believed was said. That is what I based my decision during the semifinal game on. That is what Silver was offered in G1, and what ajtls was offered in G3
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Wow. So, I stopped paying attention to this thread after I played against Silver and lost, but I thought I'd share my story.
The first game we played, I felt like I was (marginally) ahead and Silver dropped due to bnet. I told him it was no big deal, we can pretend it never happened and just replay it. I lost the second game, but it was a great experience playing against him, and very good mannered.
It was an easy decision for me, because I was more interested in playing a good opponent and testing my own abilities (and there was no money on the line). Would I have acted differently in a final, where there was some money? I like to think I would have made the same decision I made earlier, but who knows?
It really is a shame that AJ decided to take the win though. That says to me very clearly that he believed he could not have won otherwise.
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On August 23 2010 06:46 Catreina wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 06:41 stevarius wrote:
Game 1 was replayed at Silver's discretion because AJ disconnected. Silver won regardless of any factors involved in that game before the disconnection. Thus, game 1 does NOT matter in terms of replaying the whole series. It only matters in terms of determining what is logical to do in the case of game 3's disconnection. It sets precedence for the decision AJ SHOULD have made when Silver disconnected in game 3.
Did I say anything about the replay of game 2? No, I did not. No disconnect occurred and there is no controversy surrounding that win. You're trying to distract from what actually matters in determining what should have happened. Game 3 should be replayed on the basis that during the first disconnect, the person at advantage set precedence that the game would be replayed should a disconnect occur and that in game 3, there should have been a replay as well.
To Kamul: The advantage given to Silver by choice was negated and thus null and void because of his kind manners. He chose NOT to take advantage of the disconnection scenario and he set precedence. You say it's not fair to offer to Silver, but no AJ; however, Silver did not use the offering to his advantage. Game 3 being replayed when the decision was originally "You get the win unless you want to replay it" - that is what was said to Silver, and that is what was said to ajtls - thinking that silver agreeing to replay requires ajtls to replay is unfair to ajtls' right (as I gave it) to NOT replay. I have said many times I do not agree with ajtls' decision. However, being in the admin position, I am required to be impartial in my judgements. I gave Silver the option - it is unfair to change that and NOT give ajtls the option.
Again, precedence stemming from the sportsmanship on Silver's part IS impartial. There was no official rule stating what would happen upon players disconnecting and you improvised and a decision following the precedence set by Silver is impartial and, in my opinion, the correct call to promote a professional environment for gaming in a tournament.
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Catreina- It wasn't admins call. lol. It was players call. You should never give the player the option to screw over his opponent. Because when you do, and he does screw over his opponent, you get what you have here. A bunch of people complaining about how he chose to advance in the tournament. Players should have no decision what so ever in how a disconnect handles. It should be the tournament organizer/administrator's decision. Players can obviously say "I think I won" or "I think we can just do a redo, its no big deal", but you can't give the player the opportunity to take a win from his opponent (unless its literally him killing the base with a huge army) as there is always a chance the other guy can come back. Next time, don't try and dodge issues like this with a "let the players decide" judgment and just make the call yourself after reviewing the state of the game at the time of the disconnect and move on. This whole thing of "after this time in the game, the players can decide" is crap. Look at the replay, make a decision, and go with it. Also, refine your rules for next time. Look at the the rules of other successful tournaments and follow those as guidelines.
Tesla - you have no reason to be upset. You weren't online at the time, so Catreina was well within her right to make the call herself. It was horrible call granted, but she could decide whatever she wanted. Next time, be there so you can make the calls with her. And don't distance yourself because one thing (well a lot of things) went wrong or didn't go your way. It makes you look bad and people won't want to work with you because when things get tough you get going. Or that's how it looks. Be proud of your horrible attempt at a 512 man tournament.
Waiting to root for Lyra <3
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Oh well, AJ obviously wasn't confident in his abilities, and was scared to play. Either way, Silver good shit, and good luck at MLG Raleigh. You wont have to worry about this shit happening there. Oh, and, go Lyra!!
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On August 23 2010 06:55 Alou wrote:
Catreina- It wasn't admins call. lol. It was players call. You should never give the player the option to screw over his opponent. Because when you do, and he does screw over his opponent, you get what you have here. A bunch of people complaining about how he chose to advance in the tournament. Players should have no decision what so ever in how a disconnect handles. It should be the tournament organizer/administrator's decision. Players can obviously say "I think I won" or "I think we can just do a redo, its no big deal", but you can't give the player the opportunity to take a win from his opponent (unless its literally him killing the base with a huge army) as there is always a chance the other guy can come back. Next time, don't try and dodge issues like this with a "let the players decide" judgment and just make the call yourself after reviewing the state of the game at the time of the disconnect and move on. This whole thing of "after this time in the game, the players can decide" is crap. Look at the replay, make a decision, and go with it. Also, refine your rules for next time. Look at the the rules of other successful tournaments and follow those as guidelines.
Tesla - you have no reason to be upset. You weren't online at the time, so Catreina was well within her right to make the call herself. It was horrible call granted, but she could decide whatever she wanted. Next time, be there so you can make the calls with her. And don't distance yourself because one thing (well a lot of things) went wrong or didn't go your way. It makes you look bad and people won't want to work with you because when things get tough you get going. Or that's how it looks. Be proud of your horrible attempt at a 512 man tournament.
Waiting to root for Lyra <3
Great advice, but a little late. I am now damned if I do (rematch, where ajtls will likely drop and be very BM about the whole thing, as well as the thought that I reversed myself), and damned if I dont (ajtls gets a walk into the finals as a result of a possibly bad, but obviously difficult decision)
I made a call, I dont want to do a reverse on myself. I have made it known that I did not agree with ajtls not allowing a replay, but what the hell am I supposed to do now? I made myself a Cask of Amontillado, and now I am stuck.
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On August 23 2010 06:55 Alou wrote:
Catreina- It wasn't admins call. lol. It was players call. You should never give the player the option to screw over his opponent. Because when you do, and he does screw over his opponent, you get what you have here. A bunch of people complaining about how he chose to advance in the tournament. Players should have no decision what so ever in how a disconnect handles. It should be the tournament organizer/administrator's decision. Players can obviously say "I think I won" or "I think we can just do a redo, its no big deal", but you can't give the player the opportunity to take a win from his opponent (unless its literally him killing the base with a huge army) as there is always a chance the other guy can come back. Next time, don't try and dodge issues like this with a "let the players decide" judgment and just make the call yourself after reviewing the state of the game at the time of the disconnect and move on. This whole thing of "after this time in the game, the players can decide" is crap. Look at the replay, make a decision, and go with it. Also, refine your rules for next time. Look at the the rules of other successful tournaments and follow those as guidelines.
Tesla - you have no reason to be upset. You weren't online at the time, so Catreina was well within her right to make the call herself. It was horrible call granted, but she could decide whatever she wanted. Next time, be there so you can make the calls with her. And don't distance yourself because one thing (well a lot of things) went wrong or didn't go your way. It makes you look bad and people won't want to work with you because when things get tough you get going. Or that's how it looks. Be proud of your horrible attempt at a 512 man tournament.
Waiting to root for Lyra <3
I am not upset. You are correct - I wasnt online. My pc blue screened. However considering that she decided to push the finals off for today, she could have said that we would announce an official decision today as well. The things that went wrong were not my fault. This last part - You are right I should have been here but I couldnt be, cause my pc crashed. Further more - why would it make me look bad? I am not worried about that. I am not here for appearance, unlike others. You know what I mean there, I am sure Alou. I am actually here for the community because I care about the community and care to see things go well. I will continue to host and cast tournaments, just not with Cat as we have many things we can not agree on.
I will say one final thing about this - When silver was gracious and gave the rematch it should have set forth that the final match they played, should have been the same. NEVER should it be the players choice. Once again the rules were based off of official rules and iccup rules.
So here is what should have happened:
* 1: If a player disconnects while in the middle of the match, the following will be done.
- A: Who ever could have ended the game at the time of disconnect gets the win.
- B: If the game was a stalemate, then the game must be replayed.
- C: If a player was in a match and the match was 7 minutes or less, and a player disconnects - The game must be a rematch.
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EPT
