Im new to starcraft 2 - ive been a decently high quake player before - and im trying to get into this. On youtube Ive watched the most recent builds for Teraan to have a decent build and something to build on.
Now Ive watched winter's videos and PiG's videos. Ive learned their builds out of my head, even havign their vids being played on my second screen and doing exactyl what they are doing as Terran vs very hard/elite AI. And ye im telling you - and keep in mind im new i might fuck up here and there - but the builds you are making within the time you are doing it wont win you more than 20% of the matches vs AI.
So yea, what about this? Make a few vids, like where you do 5 matches vs elite AI as terran with the builds you are showing that would get me to atleast gold on the ladder to see whats this about and what im doing wrong.
Hi and welcome to TL. There are a myriad of possible reasons from macro to unit control to where you pick your fights that could hinder you (and be the difference between what you are doing and what pig and winter are doing) A replay would be most helpful.
Beating the AI won't make you gold btw. It s a good start to have builds down but you ll also need to just play some ladder and learn to play against various styles and builds as well as multitasking well enough. But totally doable so even if the first few times are a bit rough, don't worry too much about it.
No. I wanted to leave quake and rly get into this and poicked Terran cause that was the free campain avavailbe when i down I downloaded. And im just saying that when you foloow the guide frok PiG or Winters and you do that vs Elite AI you will lose 80% of the time. And unless Elite is like gold on the ladder I wanne see em win vs elite Ai with that same build order/stratry/
What builds/videos specifically? PiG and Winter both have probably hundreds of videos with many many different build orders. Specifying which builds you are using is a good first start.
Now, i would be willing to bet neither pig nor winter are going to come into this thread and decide to play a bunch of games just for you. If you show us specifically what you are trying to do, maybe someone here can help you.
Show us what you are trying to copy, and more importantly show us a replay of yourself losing to the AI so we can specifically see what you are doing wrong.
I just played 5 games with pigs build order from the first video and went 5-0. I realised after I was going tech lab first on the factory as I thought I saw him doing that. Regardless I could easily go reactor first which is normal and go 100-0 vs the elite AI with this build order. My scouting was bad and I was caught off guard twice, i was constantly supply blocked and floating money and I still won easily.
Post a replay so we can see what you are doing wrong.
I'm 100% sure the issue is in your execution, not in the builds.
I can win 99 out of 100 games vs elite AI, and I don't know any builds at all - beside the ones I came up with myself. Which obviously means they are (probably very) suboptimal.
It's still enough to win vs elite AI because my execution is... let's say 6/10, which is good enough vs AI. I haven't played ladder in ages but for example I'm able to finish any of the base three SC2 campaigns on Brutal. Which makes me... Gold level player at best, I guess?
If your execution is 3/10, you might lose with any builds however good they are.
If you'll compare your performance with PiG or Winter, are you sure you're doing the same things _with the same timings_? Because doing the same things but 1.5x slower would make any build 5 times worse. And doing it 2x slower would invalidate any build, obviously.
Because if you're supposed to have 30 marines at 6:00 but you only have them at 9:00, guess what? Your enemy's army is probably twice (or maybe even 3 times) as big now so 30 marines would be not enough.
With decent macro you can play whatever build you want and you will win vs elite AI.
Anyway your post is nonsense without a replay or video, you didnt post any of that, but you want Pig and Winter upload a video just for you, it's quite ridiculous imho.
Post a video and/or replay and we can tell you what went wrong.
Please post VODs of your games. It's almost certainly the fact that you're brand new and still learning the basics of execution, as beating the computer isn't even difficult, let alone with generally solid advice from people who actually know how to play StarCraft 2.
oke, ill post a vod where im just building my build and have a decent army parked at my second base and then the enemy comes in and just blasts me away in seconds - even though his army isnt waaaay bigger. I will find in a bit and then upload.
On March 17 2022 22:54 fps_daniel AKA Xpert wrote: oke, ill post a vod where im just building my build and have a decent army parked at my second base and then the enemy comes in and just blasts me away in seconds - even though his army isnt waaaay bigger. I will find in a bit and then upload.
Could be due to your unit composition, or a lack of upgrades on your part, or you possibly engaging at a bad angle, or a bunch of other things, so the video will definitely help us understand
Oke here is a demo of me playing vs veryhigh or elite AI. So I win playing like this maybe 1 out of 5 times. And this demo is also not my best play and most on point build. But this does yea what always kinda happens to me. Whenever im just stabnding there not attacking first or when I get my 2 medivacs and attacking at the enemy base. Everything just gone and lost within a minute.
I gave it a look. 1:40 600 Minerals floating --> that's too much especially this early in the game 3:40 one baracks is max que with marines, two are idle 6:00 3 Marauders in que --> not terrible but better to distribute on all the baracks, or build more baracks instead 8:00 1000 Min floating --> still too much 9:20 2000 Min floating --> way too much Game ending engagement took place in siege-tank fire. It is generally a good idea to either avoid being in the siege line - wait for unsiege and then attack. Idle units during fight. Stutter step forwarding would also have won you the fight and/or sieging your own tank would also have won you the fight.
On March 18 2022 04:59 BjoernK wrote: I gave it a look. 1:40 600 Minerals floating --> that's too much especially this early in the game 3:40 one baracks is max que with marines, two are idle 6:00 3 Marauders in que --> not terrible but better to distribute on all the baracks, or build more baracks instead 8:00 1000 Min floating --> still too much 9:20 2000 Min floating --> way too much Game ending engagement took place in siege-tank fire. It is generally a good idea to either avoid being in the siege line - wait for unsiege and then attack. Idle units during fight. Stutter step forwarding would also have won you the fight and/or sieging your own tank would also have won you the fight.
You are doing ok for a new guy. Stuff takes time.
This is most of it, and I also want to add that you skipped medivacs entirely and had fewer siege tanks, whereas the AI had tanks sieged up and had medivacs healing the bio too. Your attempted defense wasn't the worst ever, but the AI's macro and unit composition were certainly superior.
I also recommend you keep a scout out by the opponent's base, or at least towards the center. You had no idea the attack was coming, and with that knowledge, you could have been better prepared for the attack (siege mode, better positioning, etc.).
On March 18 2022 05:26 fps_daniel AKA Xpert wrote: So that boils down to my micro, while everybody tells me the micro doesnt matter at these levels ...
It's mostly macro and decision-making, at your level. You could have kept your resources lower as well. Resource management and pumping out as many units/structures as quickly as possible is part of one's macro. It takes time though!
On March 18 2022 05:35 fps_daniel AKA Xpert wrote: Ok so to make things staight: what actions should I take next time with this build? Just more units? And improve a bit on the macro?
Here are some things: 1. Try to use your resources as efficiently as possible (don't get supply blocked; don't queue up too many units in your unit-producing structures; if you can't keep your resources low and if you start to float them, then make more unit-producing structures; etc.) 2. If you're not going to be aggressive, then make sure you're scouting and aware of what the opponent is doing, when they're moving out to attack, etc. 3. If you're going for a bio-heavy army, you need medivacs with them. 4. Make sure you make enough siege tanks, and make sure you put them into siege mode and position your army when the opponent comes to attack.
yea ok thx for the advice and ill keep this in mind next time. But this isnt how the guide vids tell me to do while they claim these builds would get you to diamond.
On March 18 2022 05:58 fps_daniel AKA Xpert wrote: yea ok thx for the advice and ill keep this in mind next time. But this isnt how the guide vids tell me to do while they claim these builds would get you to diamond.
I think it would have been more tactful to write a first post with something like "I'm brand new to StarCraft, and I'm wondering what I can be doing better because I lost a game, here's the video, thank you" instead of the title/post you made.
@darkplasma I could have but im not just talking about a lost game, so thats not my point of making this thread. My point is that both winter and PiG claim you can get to gold/diamoind witha similair build which ive learned and try to replicate and that this - witth ofc taking into account im new - very often doesnt win vs elite AI. So the title makes sense since im using their builds.
It would have been more usefull to just give me advice on the stuff ive given instead of the last 2 replies with arent helpful in any way.
Everything always comes down to macro at low levels. You're behind on army supply. You're behind on SCVs. You're behind on production. I briefly looked at PiG's build and copied it.
At the 8 minute mark if you compare our army supply, production, and scv's i'm ahead. And I got totally out of position and he just walked up to my 3rd. In TvT you can never pushed a sieged tank line unless you are wayyyy far ahead on army supply. Just practice your macro. And it can be done wayyyy better than I did. I'm diamond and I don't even play terran. It's always macro, never the build up until around plat/diamond.
As others said, it has almost nothing to do with your micro. Your macro is very beginner-level (which is understandable, we all were there) which means "really sub-par". Floating 600 minerals at 1:40 is basically a death sentence. In early game you should always be resource starved because there's so much to build, and if you don't build/train stuff all the time - you fall behind.
Having only one baracks out of three producing and with max queue - is really bad for you too, ofc. Ideally you should always have enough production structures to easily spend your money without queues.
I.e. you would have at least 2x as big army if you just spent your money properly, and this alone would make you win most of the games vs AI that you lose. Yeah, running into siege line doesn't help, but if you have 2 or 3 times bigger army, these mistakes often don't matter as much.
Micro starts to matter when both players' macro and big picture decision making (like army composition) is good enough, so they have comparable armies. THEN you'll need better tactics and unit control than your opponent to win vs comparable army. If you have 100 army supply and I have 50-60 - you'll most probably win even if my micro is much better.
Hello! I just want to add to the wonderful responses you got, that Starcraft is an economic game and as such there are kinda exponential gains in time on everything you do. That's why your opening and first minutes are extremely important and you need to be 100% on top of execution and have tight timings. That means, for example, the moment you hit 150 minerals - bam! - barracks goes down, and you are back to zero minerals; the moment you hit 100 minerals - bam! - you queue up the second (but never third!) marine, ideally very close before the first marine finishes etc. Any excess queue or floating resources means wasted time and efficiency that could allow someone to be doing exactly the same build simultaneously as you but get more out of it.
Also please keep in mind any video that claims to have the build order to get you from A to B, is too short to cover all the basics you really need to actually execute that build order correctly. It just has the build order itself. There's a difference between having the perfect recipe for a cake and actually baking and presenting a delicious cake. Some of that you'll learn by more practice (and don't be afraid to fail!), and some will be helped by watching even more videos on the basics and fundamentals of how to play.
At this point, even after beating Hard and Harder A.I., I'm sure you can beat at least many Bronze human opponents on the actual ladder, so there's nothing better than going on the ladder. You'd get the satisfaction of losing 5 games in a row and then winning one clutch match vs someone at close skill level to yours - and that will give you the boost of confidence that at least some progress is being made. A.I. is very predictable, but makes a very concentrated attack, whereas human opponents are wildly unpredictable by comparison, but also at such skill levels are quite inefficient and you will be beating them by simply getting better and better with your macro.
Oke, thanks everybody for taking the time to reply in such detail. Then Ill continue trying to improve on this.
My main concern is - which I also encountered in quake later on - that I dont wanne get stuck with bad and wrong habbits which will be very hard to get rid of again when youve been doing em for a long time. So I wanne try to do it better here from the get go and get better more efficient.
On March 18 2022 07:39 fps_daniel AKA Xpert wrote: @jimminy why call me a troll?
@darkplasma I could have but im not just talking about a lost game, so thats not my point of making this thread. My point is that both winter and PiG claim you can get to gold/diamoind witha similair build which ive learned and try to replicate and that this - witth ofc taking into account im new - very often doesnt win vs elite AI. So the title makes sense since im using their builds.
It would have been more usefull to just give me advice on the stuff ive given instead of the last 2 replies with arent helpful in any way.
I called you a troll because you stated in your op that you were copying and doing exactly what the players were doing in the guildes. And that you "might fuck up here and there".
In the replay you posted you built one scv, then literally went AFK. Your gas is literally a minute and a half later than the players get their first gas in the videos. I didn't watch the rest because I refuse to believe you are being serious here.
Your build isn't remotely close to anything shown in the guides. You somehow don't see this, and make a post calling out PiG and Winter? I don't buy it bro.
If you are somehow being serious here, watch your own replays and compare what you are doing at what time vs the guide. Check the supply counts, count how many units they have in the guide at a set time vs how many you have. IE how many marines three minutes in. How many workers. Try your best to actually do the build properly and I guarantee you you will be able to beat the AI.
Oke fair, enough, you might have a point there. But I have a lot of matches/replays vs the very hard AI and some of then resembly the build very closely. What this demo just showed very well is that I have a decent sized army - might not as big as enemy's one but also not a lot smaller - and thats its just gone within a few seconds and that this is what often happens to me and I probably find the most frustrating thing. so yea.
On March 18 2022 15:54 figq wrote: Hello! I just want to add to the wonderful responses you got, that Starcraft is an economic game and as such there are kinda exponential gains in time on everything you do. That's why your opening and first minutes are extremely important and you need to be 100% on top of execution and have tight timings. That means, for example, the moment you hit 150 minerals - bam! - barracks goes down, and you are back to zero minerals; the moment you hit 100 minerals - bam! - you queue up the second (but never third!) marine, ideally very close before the first marine finishes etc. Any excess queue or floating resources means wasted time and efficiency that could allow someone to be doing exactly the same build simultaneously as you but get more out of it.
Also please keep in mind any video that claims to have the build order to get you from A to B, is too short to cover all the basics you really need to actually execute that build order correctly. It just has the build order itself. There's a difference between having the perfect recipe for a cake and actually baking and presenting a delicious cake. Some of that you'll learn by more practice (and don't be afraid to fail!), and some will be helped by watching even more videos on the basics and fundamentals of how to play.
At this point, even after beating Hard and Harder A.I., I'm sure you can beat at least many Bronze human opponents on the actual ladder, so there's nothing better than going on the ladder. You'd get the satisfaction of losing 5 games in a row and then winning one clutch match vs someone at close skill level to yours - and that will give you the boost of confidence that at least some progress is being made. A.I. is very predictable, but makes a very concentrated attack, whereas human opponents are wildly unpredictable by comparison, but also at such skill levels are quite inefficient and you will be beating them by simply getting better and better with your macro.
Yea I wanne go on the ladder and I might be able to beat a bronze here and there but when i watch the demos and stuff it loosk so easy to beat the AI that I cant help myself just first wanne be able to that before going in for real ...
On March 18 2022 15:54 figq wrote: Hello! I just want to add to the wonderful responses you got, that Starcraft is an economic game and as such there are kinda exponential gains in time on everything you do. That's why your opening and first minutes are extremely important and you need to be 100% on top of execution and have tight timings. That means, for example, the moment you hit 150 minerals - bam! - barracks goes down, and you are back to zero minerals; the moment you hit 100 minerals - bam! - you queue up the second (but never third!) marine, ideally very close before the first marine finishes etc. Any excess queue or floating resources means wasted time and efficiency that could allow someone to be doing exactly the same build simultaneously as you but get more out of it.
Also please keep in mind any video that claims to have the build order to get you from A to B, is too short to cover all the basics you really need to actually execute that build order correctly. It just has the build order itself. There's a difference between having the perfect recipe for a cake and actually baking and presenting a delicious cake. Some of that you'll learn by more practice (and don't be afraid to fail!), and some will be helped by watching even more videos on the basics and fundamentals of how to play.
At this point, even after beating Hard and Harder A.I., I'm sure you can beat at least many Bronze human opponents on the actual ladder, so there's nothing better than going on the ladder. You'd get the satisfaction of losing 5 games in a row and then winning one clutch match vs someone at close skill level to yours - and that will give you the boost of confidence that at least some progress is being made. A.I. is very predictable, but makes a very concentrated attack, whereas human opponents are wildly unpredictable by comparison, but also at such skill levels are quite inefficient and you will be beating them by simply getting better and better with your macro.
Yea I wanne go on the ladder and I might be able to beat a bronze here and there but when i watch the demos and stuff it loosk so easy to beat the AI that I cant help myself just first wanne be able to that before going in for real ...
While I can totally relate to your motivation to not get absolutely crushed when hopping onto ladder I think the issue with your approach are the fundamental differences between playing vs AI compared to playing against humans. Apart from getting used to execute a build order both have actually very little in common IMHO as the AI does really stupid stuff based on how it's been written so it will 'teach' you wrong things that you then need to correct later when actually playing ladder.
Sure, I can't really speak on how bottom-tier league games look nowadays, but it's not unreasonable to assume that despite undoubtedly being better than 10 years ago they still suck hard in a relative sense. Also people probably still tend towards executing simpler, so more pushy/aggressive/cheesy builds for obvious reasons and I could very well imagine you'd be hitting a brick wall at first when being confronted with that on ladder since the AI didn't prepare you for this.
Long story short, get on ladder and play against real people, as this will teach you each and every little thing you need at the time to overcome whatever league you may be in. You suck, they suck, vast majority of us still suck, it's no big deal and the real beauty of the game - you can ALWAYS improve on things and the whole experience is ultimately a journey of learning and improving and just speaking from my personal experience the game really started to expand/become interesting for me after reaching Diamond as having a foundation of mechanics (while not even remotely resembling 'perfection') finally allowed myself to incorporate the strategical aspect of the game.
To me it sounds a bit like you try to 'shortcut' this aspect of learning by playing with preparing a build order to the best of your current abilities and thus protect yourself from losing too much. If your ego can't handle losses because you want to win so badly even when starting out just in bronze, you should maybe overthink the expectations you set yourself up with.
Nevertheless I wish you best of luck in your games and hope you find what you're looking for.
Also remember that when people here say "only when my mechanics became good, I could incorporate strategical aspect of the game" - this doesn't mean there's no strategy before that point, and it's all strictly about who builds more stuff.
I believe strategy and decision making matter in Bronze too. Often 80 army supply with 6/10 strategy will beat 100 army supply with 3/10 strategy.
It's just that for most players with shaky basic mechanics, they cannot multitask effectively at all. And while they try to come up with something cool, their macro stops completely. So in the end it's not 80 supply vs 100 but more like 50 vs 100. And in this case usually no cool strategy will be able to help you much.
As long as strategic decision making doesn't slow your macro in noticeable way, it's all cool.
I think the best way to do this is to get a habit to check your macro cycle like every 10s, just to make sure CCs keep making SCVs, barracks/factories keep producing units you need, you don't forget any necessary ugprades, etc. With control groups and hotkey you won't have to move your camera away from your army, and it takes 2 seconds. It should become 2nd nature, i.e. you should do it without thinking much.
I created a video to show you how to refight battles against the AI which can be useful for learning how to control your army.
I also go over how to respond build order mistakes. Basically if you forget to build a worker it is better to just build stuff at an earlier supply rather than to delay your whole build 15 seconds.
Some other suggestions are to hotkey all your production structures. I put all army production structures on one hotkey and my Command Centers and upgrades on another hotkey.
You have to press the Tab key to cycle between building types eg: Barrack->Factory->Starport. The advantage is that you can see if you have any idle buildings.
For me it is especially helpful to notice an idle Engineering Bay when building SCVs.
Alright thx Creager and ZeroByte13, ill go play live games very soonish then.
And a special thanks to meadbert for even making a video for me, appriciated a lot! And the replay taking control option will indeed come in handy to replay situations where I didnt rly know why they went so wrong. Thx.
Since the advice has been so solid and theres a lot of good help. Here is one demo of me where I win vs Very hard AI:
What is it thats going on here that makes me win this? Did I do something well here or was is just that the enemy attacked me first and and then stupidly retreated that basically made this some lucky win?
On March 20 2022 00:06 fps_daniel AKA Xpert wrote: Alright thx Creager and ZeroByte13, ill go play live games very soonish then.
And a special thanks to meadbert for even making a video for me, appriciated a lot! And the replay taking control option will indeed come in handy to replay situations where I didnt rly know why they went so wrong. Thx.
Since the advice has been so solid and theres a lot of good help. Here is one demo of me where I win vs Very hard AI:
What is it thats going on here that makes me win this? Did I do something well here or was is just that the enemy attacked me first and and then stupidly retreated that basically made this some lucky win?
Fundamentally, until you are a significantly higher-level player, every game is won by macro. Whoever has more stuff will almost always win every game. Even in games that look like they were won or lost for some other reasons, unless you are at a pretty high level of play you will find that either player could easily have won if they had good macro, because they would have had a significantly better army than their opponent.
In this replay, you won because you had better macro than your opponent. Watch the replay and look at the supply; when their attack hit you, you had 153 supply and the AI had 112. Whether they had decided to retreat or not, they would have lost the game. You could have just pressed F2 and a-moved your entire army toward their base, and you would have won the game.
If you look closely at the replay, you will see a lot of places you could have actually been much further ahead than you were. Your first worker doesn't start for a very long time, almost enough time to have actually built a worker. Throughout the game, there are often times that you are not making workers, or when your other production facilities are not making anything. You often have large numbers of units queued up - that means you've spent the money to get those units, but you aren't actually building them yet.
If you cleaned up these issues, you'd likely be able to get to 200 supply by the time that attack arrived. And you would never lose - with 200 supply against a 112 supply AI, you can just select your whole army, hit "attack", and tell it to go to the enemy base. You don't need to do anything else. And my advice to you would be to focus on this aspect of the game as much as you can until you are generally always producing out of all your facilities, never queueing lots of extra units, and rarely getting supply blocked. These are the fundamentals upon which you can then layer more advanced but less impactful things like positioning, micro, and army composition.
On March 24 2022 01:58 WombaT wrote: It’s heartening to see that even today some folks are giving the beautiful game a shot
This! Absolute kudos to OP for giving this a serious try! And also props for the constructive comments! This is what TL is all about, and I'm happy to see that it hasn't lost its mojo after all those years.
I'd like to add that executing a build perfectly is nice, but knowing how to adjust when you fail to follow a build is also very useful.
Day9 had a great episode on this, but I can't find it now (edit: I think it's this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ipq_bbI9SI). The general idea is that most builds have a *goal*, and messing up the build is fine (your opponent will mess up things too), as long as you still work towards the goal of the build.
Say your goal was to surprise your opponent with a strong timing attack, including a +1 upgrade. But... you forgot to start the +1 upgrade :S Then it makes little sense to start the upgrade now and do the whole thing 114 seconds later because the goal was a strong timing. Instead,it's fine to just attack! Maybe invest the money that would have gone into the upgrade into a few extra units. You still have the strong push, which was the goal of the build.
Say your goal was to quickly tech up to cloaked banshees before your Zerg opponent has detection ready . But... your opponent has early zerglings which kill some SCVs, so you have less income than your build required :S In that case, it's fine to get to the cloaked banshees a little slower than planned because your opponent will also be a little slower with their detection. So you'd still have cloaked banshees before he has detection, which was the goal of the build.
Like with everything, "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face". It's how you roll with the punches that determines the outcome of the fight.
On March 18 2022 20:26 fps_daniel AKA Xpert wrote: Oke, thanks everybody for taking the time to reply in such detail. Then Ill continue trying to improve on this.
My main concern is - which I also encountered in quake later on - that I dont wanne get stuck with bad and wrong habbits which will be very hard to get rid of again when youve been doing em for a long time. So I wanne try to do it better here from the get go and get better more efficient.
Ok thx.
It s a good mindset but also it s important you have fun.
In general like other people said, and as you surely noticed based on the difference between your first game you posted and the new one more recently, macro is the most important, both short term and long term.
Yes you can allin your way into diamond, and it s fun to have some of those builds. But learning macro and having it fairly clean first is always useful. Even when you all in you need that mechanical basis for at least the first few minutes. And your go-to allin may be nullified by the next patch/maps.
Eventually you do have to learn other things too so the order is not quite set in stone but macro improvement usually results in MMR improvement faster in lower leagues, also reliably.
Do learn to adapt to what you see, you ll likely face a ton of all ins. there is nothing wrong losing to an allin, do not get tilted, do not insult the opponent, instead look at the replay, may be write down the timing, look at what you could have done better, look for the telltale signs of the allins so next time you can "feel it" (this is also known as "Starsense" for proplayers), do NOT panic during the attack, panicking helps your opponent.
Learn to play safe once your macro is good enough. If you hold and you have better macro you ll just win eventually, be patient.
Finally, while i havent been very active in sc2 lately and cant point you to a specific place, if you can find some online buddies to play with it makes the experience much more enjoyable
On March 18 2022 15:05 ZeroByte13 wrote: As others said, it has almost nothing to do with your micro. Your macro is very beginner-level (which is understandable, we all were there) which means "really sub-par". Floating 600 minerals at 1:40 is basically a death sentence. In early game you should always be resource starved because there's so much to build, and if you don't build/train stuff all the time - you fall behind.
Having only one baracks out of three producing and with max queue - is really bad for you too, ofc. Ideally you should always have enough production structures to easily spend your money without queues.
I.e. you would have at least 2x as big army if you just spent your money properly, and this alone would make you win most of the games vs AI that you lose. Yeah, running into siege line doesn't help, but if you have 2 or 3 times bigger army, these mistakes often don't matter as much.
Micro starts to matter when both players' macro and big picture decision making (like army composition) is good enough, so they have comparable armies. THEN you'll need better tactics and unit control than your opponent to win vs comparable army. If you have 100 army supply and I have 50-60 - you'll most probably win even if my micro is much better.
Understanding this principle will make you 1000% better at Starcraft. It sucks when you lose a battle because you have 1k minerals could have been units to help you win the game 5 minutes ago.
On March 18 2022 15:05 ZeroByte13 wrote: As others said, it has almost nothing to do with your micro. Your macro is very beginner-level (which is understandable, we all were there) which means "really sub-par". Floating 600 minerals at 1:40 is basically a death sentence. In early game you should always be resource starved because there's so much to build, and if you don't build/train stuff all the time - you fall behind.
Having only one baracks out of three producing and with max queue - is really bad for you too, ofc. Ideally you should always have enough production structures to easily spend your money without queues.
I.e. you would have at least 2x as big army if you just spent your money properly, and this alone would make you win most of the games vs AI that you lose. Yeah, running into siege line doesn't help, but if you have 2 or 3 times bigger army, these mistakes often don't matter as much.
Micro starts to matter when both players' macro and big picture decision making (like army composition) is good enough, so they have comparable armies. THEN you'll need better tactics and unit control than your opponent to win vs comparable army. If you have 100 army supply and I have 50-60 - you'll most probably win even if my micro is much better.
Understanding this principle will make you 1000% better at Starcraft. It sucks when you lose a battle because you have 1k minerals could have been units to help you win the game 5 minutes ago.
This.
Also the concept that resources spent earlier = even more resources later.
Floating 1k 3 minutes in is way more impactful than if I’m floating 1k at 20 minutes in.
Every ‘beat’ you miss in a 0-4/5 minute build order, the earlier you miss it the more it cascades
Yo. I did not watch what does Winter say, but from PiG and ViBe none of them mentioned how can you practice. I mean they all explained fundamentals well just that alone helped me a lot. But what i mean, that there in game tutorials, scenarios in WOL campaign and even some arcade game, they have some very interesting game modes, that are help you understand units interactions, how to use hotkeys efficiently and some macro tricks and trainings. Seriously, that how i learned in sc2. They called Challenge missions I mean, i think idea behind their videos help those who kind of already got into starcraft 2, but how did you got into? some arcades: Starcraft master LOTV Units tester Online for Core Multitask trainer
youtu.be <<<<<<< this winter doing STARCRAFT MASTER arcade mode, map...
ok, Harstem (professional protoss player) Decided to make a step by step guide specifically to you on how to beat the immensely strong elite AI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJjMKBhIa6I The build he showcases is handpicked for you and has a 100% winrate if you execute it correctly, gl.
That Harstem video made me laugh so hard. A "macro" double planetary fortress rush with pulled workers. Harstem's ability to (a) meet the assignment by actually delivering a foolproof build that will get you to gold and smash the elite AI and (b) make it the most hilarious build possible and (c) produce a genuinely well-made guide to executing that build in a perfect deadpan... the man is a legend.
On March 26 2022 21:49 AmericanUmlaut wrote: That Harstem video made me laugh so hard. A "macro" double planetary fortress rush with pulled workers. Harstem's ability to (a) meet the assignment by actually delivering a foolproof build that will get you to gold and smash the elite AI and (b) make it the most hilarious build possible and (c) produce a genuinely well-made guide to executing that build in a perfect deadpan... the man is a legend.
Yes, he is funny as hell and sharp as a razorblade. The man is a national treasure for the Dutch.
ive never lost against the elite ai doing any build, in fact i limit myself to no tier 3 to make it fair or some some jank ass 4 hatch before pool. im not sure what im reading here the builds in the video are solid starts, youll only lose if u arent looking at the minimap for cheese or dont produce the units as soon as you should.
the harstem response was genius. this is indeed a legit build! I just pray harstem IS this funny. if this is by mistake then damn, hes become my favourite pro overnight . . not bad for one of the games longest runners
Am I being an idiot, I don’t recall the elite AI being easily beatable at all?
At least playing in non-exploitable ways?
Way back in WoL, at my peak PvP I had a pretty damn tight 4 gate timing and I’d rock up and the AI would have more gate units than me AND A BLOODY ROBO WITH AN IMMORTAL QUEUED?
Please someone tell me I’m not going insane, did they tone this down or something?
On March 29 2022 01:59 WombaT wrote: Am I being an idiot, I don’t recall the elite AI being easily beatable at all?
At least playing in non-exploitable ways?
Way back in WoL, at my peak PvP I had a pretty damn tight 4 gate timing and I’d rock up and the AI would have more gate units than me AND A BLOODY ROBO WITH AN IMMORTAL QUEUED?
Please someone tell me I’m not going insane, did they tone this down or something?
You might be thinking of the "cheater" AI that mined more minerals?
On March 29 2022 01:59 WombaT wrote: Am I being an idiot, I don’t recall the elite AI being easily beatable at all?
At least playing in non-exploitable ways?
Way back in WoL, at my peak PvP I had a pretty damn tight 4 gate timing and I’d rock up and the AI would have more gate units than me AND A BLOODY ROBO WITH AN IMMORTAL QUEUED?
Please someone tell me I’m not going insane, did they tone this down or something?
You might be thinking of the "cheater" AI that mined more minerals?
Is that not the elite AI? There must be one difficulty above that then? Can't remember the name but yeah that sounds like what I'm thinking of
I believe "insane" AI is only available in "custom games", while "elite" is in "versus". Insane AI is cheating (can mine and built faster) I remember beating it with building spines at exactly the right time and after enemy attack counterattacking.
1. Constantly produce workers: Workers generate ressources which you can build stuff with, so you want to have as many workers as possible as early as possible to maximize the ressources you have available. There should never be a moment in which you aren't producing workers until you reach full saturation (=22 workers per base)
2. Spend all your money immediately: You want your army at all times to be as strong as possible so if you float 1000 minerals it means you have not invested those ressources into your army which is bad. If you struggle with spending your money build more production facilities.
3. Don't get supply blocked: Self-explanatory - if you're supplyblocked you can't build stuff which means your army and/or your economy will be weaker than usual
4. Don't overqueue units: Same principle as not floating money - If you queue 5 Thors up that's 1200 / 800 that could have been spend at things which gain you something immediately instead
If you follow those principles and play a proper build you should rank up very quickly
0:00 - immdiate scv. keep constant scv production up to 19 total. when first scv finishes: supply depot when supply depot finishes: barracks @ 75 minerals: refinery - put 3 in gas @ 150 minerals - start second barracks @ 150 minerals barracks #2 @ 150 minerals barracks #3 @ barracks #1 complete - orbital and Reactor on barracks @ 100 minerals supply depot - keep this scv building supply depots constantly up to 54 supply cap @ 100% barracks 2 - tech lab -> start stim asap @ 100% barracks 3 - tech lab Build Marines and marauders constantly. cut workers at 16/16 on minerals and 3 in gas.
start moving across the map at 3:30. Attack at 4:00 with stim.
This build is very simple in concept. You build 3 barracks, research stim, and attack with marines and marauders. Don't expand, don't worry about micro, the only point is to focus on PERFECT execution.
If you do it right, you can hit the opponent at 4 minutes with stim and 50 supply.
If you are slack *anywhere* in the build, you cannot hit this timing. Practicing this will teach you proper early game build executing and where you can gain efficiency. It's how I'd recommend a true beginner start even before the "get to gold" builds, which run much longer and require your attention to be split between expansions, tech paths, etc.
Perfect your first 4 minutes, then add on to this.
This is another great drill to extend your understanding of efficiency into the late game. The goal here is to max out on ONLY scvs and marines as quickly as possible. Start with normal Supply depot > barracks >orbital opening but take no gasses. Build new command centers and barracks as fast as minerals allow, and keep producing SCVs and Marines constantly.
Executed perfectly, you can max out by 8:00 or earlier.
This will teach you about spending efficiency, mineral line saturation, supply blocks, and expanding Production infrastructure to meet your income.
it is a GREAT drill to really explore how efficiency is king. As you bring your max-out time lower and lower, you will find new ways to keep your floating minerals down and expand your production rapdily.
Practice these two religiously and you will develop great fundamentals. Then you can revisit Pig and Winter's builds and use them to easily smash your way to gold/plat.
imjust sayinng, oke im a semi quake pro leel player vbefore, its all good and fun. But i know ytou youtuber have takin this over to makemoney over my back and that everybody has gotten ininto this. If Serkem or/whe trhe sanem was whoEVER made that video, shoudkl take me personally and and ad add emas friend till im godkl then we could talk I know onoy feel used rto make you gaina soem youtunes money and im still herte .. all im saying
On April 01 2022 06:25 fps_daniel AKA Xpert wrote: imjust sayinng, oke im a semi quake pro leel player vbefore, its all good and fun. But i know ytou youtuber have takin this over to makemoney over my back and that everybody has gotten ininto this. If Serkem or/whe trhe sanem was whoEVER made that video, shoudkl take me personally and and ad add emas friend till im godkl then we could talk I know onoy feel used rto make you gaina soem youtunes money and im still herte .. all im saying
Were you entirely sober when you wrote that?
You’ve got great advice from TLers here, yes Harstem made a joking video off this thread.
Go do that stuff recommended. If you’re good enough at Quake to be a semi pro player, you’re more than good enough to follow basic instructions and nail a build order
On April 01 2022 06:25 fps_daniel AKA Xpert wrote: imjust sayinng, oke im a semi quake pro leel player vbefore, its all good and fun. But i know ytou youtuber have takin this over to makemoney over my back and that everybody has gotten ininto this. If Serkem or/whe trhe sanem was whoEVER made that video, shoudkl take me personally and and ad add emas friend till im godkl then we could talk I know onoy feel used rto make you gaina soem youtunes money and im still herte .. all im saying
On April 01 2022 06:25 fps_daniel AKA Xpert wrote: imjust sayinng, oke im a semi quake pro leel player vbefore, its all good and fun. But i know ytou youtuber have takin this over to makemoney over my back and that everybody has gotten ininto this. If Serkem or/whe trhe sanem was whoEVER made that video, shoudkl take me personally and and ad add emas friend till im godkl then we could talk I know onoy feel used rto make you gaina soem youtunes money and im still herte .. all im saying
Dude. You made a very, very silly post accusing two highly regarded content producers of being full of it because you were too incompetent to even recognize that you were nowhere close to following their instructions. In response, the community actually gave you some very good advice, frankly a much kinder response than your post deserved. And even Harstem made a guide video with an awesome, fun, silly build that you could learn to kick ass at least up to Gold. And because your foolishness was the inspiration for that video, you think you're somehow entitled to compensation? Jesus. No. You're being an asshole.
On March 18 2022 05:26 fps_daniel AKA Xpert wrote: So that boils down to my micro, while everybody tells me the micro doesnt matter at these levels ...
I'm only diamond, but I would slightly disagree that micro doesn't matter. It does matter, a lot to have a minimal amount of micro, but beyond that minimal micro, spending more time on it has diminishing returns.
In the replay you posted, you just needed to siege your tank with your army and walk your units forward while fiting a little at the final battle, and you would have easily won. This is like 5 seconds of micro. Of course, you could have also better macro and won too, but I'd argue its actually easier to practice a few engagements (using the re-start replay function) and learn the very basics of terran army engagement. This is especially important with units like tanks (they absolutely suck un-sieged except in very specific circumstances).
Because SC2 has very high dps/splash (I'd say too high), all your units can die in an instant if you royally mess up micro, even if you have a (moderately) bigger army. There is no reason to forgo basic micro improvement.
tl;dr: it's a little to simple to say 'micro doesn't matter'. Gaining a minimal amount has huge rewards, and you don't have to focus on one or the other.
P.S. I'd agree, you shouldn't be aggressive / demanding of winter/PiG. Tbh, your assessment of their build is simply due to mis-execution (as people have said many times...)
On March 18 2022 05:26 fps_daniel AKA Xpert wrote: So that boils down to my micro, while everybody tells me the micro doesnt matter at these levels ...
I'm only diamond, but I would slightly disagree that micro doesn't matter. It does matter, a lot to have a minimal amount of micro, but beyond that minimal micro, spending more time on it has diminishing returns.
In the replay you posted, you just needed to siege your tank with your army and walk your units forward while fiting a little at the final battle, and you would have easily won. This is like 5 seconds of micro. Of course, you could have also better macro and won too, but I'd argue its actually easier to practice a few engagements (using the re-start replay function) and learn the very basics of terran army engagement. This is especially important with units like tanks (they absolutely suck un-sieged except in very specific circumstances).
Because SC2 has very high dps/splash (I'd say too high), all your units can die in an instant if you royally mess up micro, even if you have a (moderately) bigger army. There is no reason to forgo basic micro improvement.
tl;dr: it's a little to simple to say 'micro doesn't matter'. Gaining a minimal amount has huge rewards, and you don't have to focus on one or the other.
P.S. I'd agree, you shouldn't be aggressive / demanding of winter/PiG. Tbh, your assessment of their build is simply due to mis-execution (as people have said many times...)
Micro is a good skill toi have.
I mean most of these kind of guides exist as a proof of concept for how important macro is, and if you treat them as that they’re very useful indeed. Kind of zoning in on an area of the game
If you treat them like ‘this is how to win’, less so.
Coming from Warcraft 3 and having pretty decent micro, it took me a while to adjust to the importance of just building more stuff. But when I’d sorta parsed that well hey my WC3 micro chops also helped a lot.
Anyways I just came here to ask some advice and not to be dragged into some youbers video drama and all this shit. Thank for the adive, ill keep on tryin and when i have something worethile to mention, ill mention it. Bye
Anyways I just came here to ask some advice and not to be dragged into some youbers video drama and all this shit. Thank for the adive, ill keep on tryin and when i have something worethile to mention, ill mention it. Bye
Anyways I just came here to ask some advice and not to be dragged into some youbers video drama and all this shit. Thank for the adive, ill keep on tryin and when i have something worethile to mention, ill mention it. Bye
I don't understand your problem, Harstem did exactly what you requested
So yea, what about this? Make a few vids, like where you do 5 matches vs elite AI as terran with the builds you are showing that would get me to atleast gold on the ladder to see whats this about and what im doing wrong.
only with 1 match instead of 5 but the build he showed would have definitely won him 4 more games vs the AI
1. Ask for a video showing a workable strategy against AI 2. Get a video from a literal progamer showing a workable strategy against an AI 3. Complain about being "dragged into some youbers[sic] video drama"
imjust sayinng, oke im a semi quake pro leel player vbefore, its all good and fun. But i know ytou youtuber have takin this over to makemoney over my back and that everybody has gotten ininto this. If Serkem or/whe trhe sanem was whoEVER made that video, shoudkl take me personally and and ad add emas friend till im godkl then we could talk I know onoy feel used rto make you gaina soem youtunes money and im still herte .. all im saying
Anyways I just came here to ask some advice and not to be dragged into some youbers video drama and all this shit. Thank for the adive, ill keep on tryin and when i have something worethile to mention, ill mention it. Bye
Anyways I just came here to ask some advice and not to be dragged into some youbers video drama and all this shit. Thank for the adive, ill keep on tryin and when i have something worethile to mention, ill mention it. Bye
While Harstem's video was a little trolly (and honestly quite funny for those of us that have been around a long time), it 1) did exactly what you wanted 2) worked to your skills as a quake player, and 3) was correct in that it will easily get you into gold.
Now in the long term, this won't get you a lot further than that. Players and Plat or above will start to be able to defend against these types of shenanigans, and will scout you early enough to give this build some serious issues.
As others have stated, work on your macro first for the most part. Having more stuff means a lot. Don't stop building workers unless you have a very very good reason to (very early all in). Don't get supply capped. Then start working on compositions, and broader strategies. Micro will develop pretty naturally as you go, and you will start to get an idea of when you need to really being putting all your efforts into keeping stuff alive rather than getting that 1 more scv.
Be ok with losing. Especially when it is easy to identify why you lost....oh I got supply capped just as my opponent attacked...oh i didn't have any units, and my opponent all in'd me, etc etc.
There was a way of training I saw long ago that helped several people I know get the jist of macro. It started with taking no gas, and just building scv and marines. The challenge was to see if you could win only building these two units, and more importantly, to always be building them and never be supply capped. Only when you won, could you go to the next stage of building...say marauders. Rinse and repeat until you have to manage barracks, factories, starports. By that time your macro should be decent enough to take games pretty consistently in gold.
But beware, at low levels, you WILL get wonky builds that you just don't see coming since your scouting is 1) generally lackluster and 2) you really don't understand what all of what you are even looking for yet.
what a great thread, I didn't expect the community to react this kindly, then turns out the guy isn't the most appreciative of this miracle. Goes to show that BMing new players sometimes makes sense
On April 07 2022 21:55 Moonerz wrote: Does anyone even play quake now?
if we were caring about that, we wouldn't be here playing bw/sc2
I was curious if I could find anything about fps_daniel and his quake prowess, and all I could turn up was a script, dedicated to him, for muting players in quake live. Seeing his posts, I think this makes a lot of sense.
On April 08 2022 05:59 teamfrolic wrote: I was curious if I could find anything about fps_daniel and his quake prowess, and all I could turn up was a script, dedicated to him, for muting players in quake live. Seeing his posts, I think this makes a lot of sense.
On April 08 2022 04:35 Kelberot wrote: what a great thread, I didn't expect the community to react this kindly, then turns out the guy isn't the most appreciative of this miracle. Goes to show that BMing new players sometimes makes sense
On April 07 2022 21:55 Moonerz wrote: Does anyone even play quake now?
if we were caring about that, we wouldn't be here playing bw/sc2
quake is quite a great game regardless
Quake is the tits, it’s a shame that not just Quake but that entire genre is borderline dead these days.
I’d give one of my testicles for an arena shooter to really hit it big again.
Much as I love the genre I also get destroyed dipping in again as the entire game population seems to be mostly veterans who’ve been actively playing forever.
If I may have some across a bit holstiel to you guys, then im sry ok. I also have real life problems to deal with and im only human after all. Im thankful for all the tips and posts everybody gave me, they kept me motivated to keep trying and actually start playing on the ladder and to get more insight about the meta. And with that being said i am proud to announce to you guys that i am now a ........... Bronze 1 on the ladder!!!
But yea only people pull off nasty tricks which i have to deal with now. Like yesterday I had a whole solid army in front of my base and was rdy to attack but he dropped a nuke on my army and then attacked me instead, so ye ....
But Ill keep you guys posted and If there arte more tips they are always welcome ofc!
Oh yea and what I wanted to add is - and this was also alrdy in pig and inter guide - but for some reason i changed path from this build probably cause also still watching too much other dudes but is ... That after I have build my first barrack at the stairs Ill make sure to have around 450 saved up is to then make the 2nd command center and the oribital upgrade AND then 2 extra barracks with teck labs. And with this as solid start now and having some hotkeys and a bit more experience its going a lot better so yea. Wanted to add that.
The biggest problem i still have is that when I have more units and tanks and stuff than my opponent and I just attack straight into them - people say it can be done with more units - but a row of lined up sieged tanks up a ramp vs a bigger army comming from below kills me hard. But sometimes I can lurr them out and then they walk into me and then its fine but yea. Oke but thats for later.
Congratz on the ladder ranking! Bronze is a cesspool where every player is pulling out the most foul tricks, just for the sake of getting out of Bronze. It's pretty awesome
Yes, walking marines into siege tanks might be one example where "bigger army can attack-move into smaller army" does not apply.
You have to dislodge their siege tanks. One trick is to rely on your vision outranging the opponents vision. Siege tanks vision range is smaller than their attack range. If you bring vikings with your siege tanks, the vikings will provide vision for your tanks, allowing your tanks to fire on the opponents tanks without their tanks firing back. This also solves the high ground issue, since flying units will reveil what is up the ramp.
(This is why TvT often revolves about air superiority, aka "the viking war". Winner of that air battle gets free shots with their tanks)
On April 10 2022 03:34 fps_daniel AKA Xpert wrote: If I may have some across a bit holstiel to you guys, then im sry ok. I also have real life problems to deal with and im only human after all. Im thankful for all the tips and posts everybody gave me, they kept me motivated to keep trying and actually start playing on the ladder and to get more insight about the meta. And with that being said i am proud to announce to you guys that i am now a ........... Bronze 1 on the ladder!!!
But yea only people pull off nasty tricks which i have to deal with now. Like yesterday I had a whole solid army in front of my base and was rdy to attack but he dropped a nuke on my army and then attacked me instead, so ye ....
But Ill keep you guys posted and If there arte more tips they are always welcome ofc!
I't's great to see that you had a change in attitude and I'm very glad to hear that you'll continue trying to improve.
You mentioned that you disagree micro is not important at low level. For some easy micro tricks that won't take much of your attention I can recommend watching this from the linked timestamp and then around 10 minutes forward.
Once you start getting better and have a deeper understanding of the game I'm gonna recommend following the pro scene because in my opinion Starcraft 2 (and SC:BW) are the most interesting e-Sports games to watch.
I just want to say that PIG's Bronze2GM guide encouraged me to get back into the game after 7 years and I am currently in Gold 3 league. Now I know what basics I was missing last time.
Alright friends, it are too many replies to thank you all personally but im looking into everything thats being told and send and keeping it in mind and thanks for all the info!
Alright friends, its been 1 month to the day I made this post. Back then very hard difficulty was just too hard for me, so hard that I coudnt resist making a post about it here. I told you I would keep you guys updated, I told you guys i woudnt give up and my promises are golden.
Now one month later I have the ability/build order to win vs the very hard elite pretty convincing. So yea, so this a big milestone and we all togheter made this happen!
I dont know if people are still reading this thread but like ..
I have an APM of like max 60. One of the bigger troubles im encountering is at the beginning I always selects all my suv's and hotkey them under key 1. This was I can just press 1 and have workers selected and just build pretty fast some stuff left and right and with holding shift like multiple same buildings. The problem I encounter is that usually workers who are working on my gas are taking these tasks on them and that then at some point I all of a sudden realise none of my workers are gettings gas anymore. And this selected group of workers are also always still the 12 first workers.
Ive tried to just make camera positions on all bases and then fastly selecting a bunch of wokersd with my mouse and then let them build something and with this route I keep my workers at gas but it doesnt feel good. I miss having that "1" hotkey to press and to just statt building.
How do i solve this problem? How do those good guys do that?
Also I use the grid layout and there is "t" the attack button but i want shift to be the attack button, but i cant find this attack thing in the option menu. Does anyone know how to solve this as well?
Of all the things to call about about their Terran advice I don't think it not beating AI is it. My least favorite things that PiG tells Terrans:
1) Play Mech until Masters 2) Don't make ghosts until Masters
I didn't even know Winter gave advice for Terran but I'm not surprised it's not very good given his not-really-concealed babyrage at Terran in general.
On April 18 2022 10:06 fps_daniel AKA Xpert wrote: Also I use the grid layout and there is "t" the attack button but i want shift to be the attack button, but i cant find this attack thing in the option menu. Does anyone know how to solve this as well?
With Grid Layout you use buttons for grid slots, so you need to change key for the top-right slot from T to what you want. But Shift is also modifier key, so I wouldn't recommend it for attack command.
Getting rid of old habits (your 1 key for SCVs) can be difficult. But the longer you wait, the harder it gets. So break that habit
I'd recommend having hotkeys for: - your CC's, for building SCVs (without looking at the CCs!) - your production buildings, for building army (without looking at your production buildings) - your army
With those hotkeys you dont need to spend a lot of time making SCVs and army. It will be like "4 s s 5 a a a a d d", and you've spent a nice 500/50 of resources (hotkey 4 being CC in this case) without even looking. So you have time for non-automated things like building things, and running your army around.
Pressing the CC hotkey twice (so 4-4) will take you to the nearest CC. Pressing space cycles through all your bases. So either way, with a few key presses, you have your screen focused on a bunch of SCVs. Box-select a handfull of SCVs, give them building orders (b-b, or b-s, or whatever you need), shift-click them back on minerals so they continue mining after their building is done. And... back to 4ss5aaaadd 4ss5aaaadd. Whenever you have 1000+ minerals, build extra barracks, and supply stations when needed.
This will leave your 1 key available for a metric ton of marine marauder.
Edit: with grid layout, the exact keys would be different but the principle remains the same
Yea with the grid layout cycling through your cc's was binded to backspace; i never knew of this command and caur it was at backspace also never found out by accident or something.
Now with it binded to spacebar - and scv's no longer binded anymore - it is managable thx.
I echo that it is best to break bad habits as soon as possible and replace them with better habits. The earlier you can do this the better, before it gets too ingrained. Theres a lot of techniques to get to base but even just scrolling at 60 apm till you can grab an scv off a mineral patch instead is better than not having enough gas when you need the gas.
On April 18 2022 23:17 honorablemacroterran wrote: Of all the things to call about about their Terran advice I don't think it not beating AI is it. My least favorite things that PiG tells Terrans:
1) Play Mech until Masters 2) Don't make ghosts until Masters
I didn't even know Winter gave advice for Terran but I'm not surprised it's not very good given his not-really-concealed babyrage at Terran in general.
Play mech until masters!?!? I literally just did a bronze to GM with only 1 league where I showed full mech play just for variety. It's SC2, a strategy game. I've always encouraged people to play whatever they think is fun.
The reason I don't encourage people to make ghosts is most players make ghosts and use them like ass. If you aren't actively trying to get better at using fancy units it's not an effective strategy.
I've seen you in my chat a LOT lately so surprised you're making this stuff up
On April 29 2022 19:13 PiGStarcraft wrote: The reason I don't encourage people to make ghosts is most players make ghosts and use them like ass. If you aren't actively trying to get better at using fancy units it's not an effective strategy.
PiG, you just made me realize I use vipers "like ass". Basically I use them as very expensive suicide units, which is sub-optimal. Maybe I should stop making them
On April 18 2022 23:17 honorablemacroterran wrote: Of all the things to call about about their Terran advice I don't think it not beating AI is it. My least favorite things that PiG tells Terrans:
1) Play Mech until Masters 2) Don't make ghosts until Masters
I didn't even know Winter gave advice for Terran but I'm not surprised it's not very good given his not-really-concealed babyrage at Terran in general.
Play mech until masters!?!? I literally just did a bronze to GM with only 1 league where I showed full mech play just for variety. It's SC2, a strategy game. I've always encouraged people to play whatever they think is fun.
The reason I don't encourage people to make ghosts is most players make ghosts and use them like ass. If you aren't actively trying to get better at using fancy units it's not an effective strategy.
I've seen you in my chat a LOT lately so surprised you're making this stuff up
Sorry I missed this until just now after you called me out on your stream. I actually was a lot more active in the chat a few months ago than the past month or so, at least to my recollection.
When I posted that, I thought I remembered you saying that you were going mech in all matchups up to masters when I was watching it live. Maybe it was just in plat or whatever, in which case I'm sorry that I said that mistakenly. I still think that Terran benefits from ghosts well before masters... other GM terrans I've watched have recommended making ghosts as well so it's not just my opinion. I'll continue to respectfully disagree on ghosts being worthwhile.
On April 18 2022 23:17 honorablemacroterran wrote: Of all the things to call about about their Terran advice I don't think it not beating AI is it. My least favorite things that PiG tells Terrans:
1) Play Mech until Masters 2) Don't make ghosts until Masters
I didn't even know Winter gave advice for Terran but I'm not surprised it's not very good given his not-really-concealed babyrage at Terran in general.
Play mech until masters!?!? I literally just did a bronze to GM with only 1 league where I showed full mech play just for variety. It's SC2, a strategy game. I've always encouraged people to play whatever they think is fun.
The reason I don't encourage people to make ghosts is most players make ghosts and use them like ass. If you aren't actively trying to get better at using fancy units it's not an effective strategy.
I've seen you in my chat a LOT lately so surprised you're making this stuff up
Geez pig, why do you have to make this thread about you?
On April 18 2022 23:17 honorablemacroterran wrote: Of all the things to call about about their Terran advice I don't think it not beating AI is it. My least favorite things that PiG tells Terrans:
1) Play Mech until Masters 2) Don't make ghosts until Masters
I didn't even know Winter gave advice for Terran but I'm not surprised it's not very good given his not-really-concealed babyrage at Terran in general.
Play mech until masters!?!? I literally just did a bronze to GM with only 1 league where I showed full mech play just for variety. It's SC2, a strategy game. I've always encouraged people to play whatever they think is fun.
The reason I don't encourage people to make ghosts is most players make ghosts and use them like ass. If you aren't actively trying to get better at using fancy units it's not an effective strategy.
I've seen you in my chat a LOT lately so surprised you're making this stuff up
Sorry I missed this until just now after you called me out on your stream. I actually was a lot more active in the chat a few months ago than the past month or so, at least to my recollection.
When I posted that, I thought I remembered you saying that you were going mech in all matchups up to masters when I was watching it live. Maybe it was just in plat or whatever, in which case I'm sorry that I said that mistakenly. I still think that Terran benefits from ghosts well before masters... other GM terrans I've watched have recommended making ghosts as well so it's not just my opinion. I'll continue to respectfully disagree on ghosts being worthwhile.
I never said they weren't worthwhile - I said if you aren't actively trying to get better at using them and instead they're distracting you from controlling your army appropriately, then they're a detriment. This is a specific and common use-case. I have not said "never make ghosts" as a blanket statement. I pretty much never make blanket statements. There is always clarifying information and context. SC2 is a game with many tools and ways of playing and involves people using their own critical thinking at all times. I am not a prophet that tells people how to play the game, I just give advice on how to improve and techniques for focusing that improvement.
On April 16 2022 05:24 fps_daniel AKA Xpert wrote: Alright friends, its been 1 month to the day I made this post. Back then very hard difficulty was just too hard for me, so hard that I coudnt resist making a post about it here. I told you I would keep you guys updated, I told you guys i woudnt give up and my promises are golden.
Now one month later I have the ability/build order to win vs the very hard elite pretty convincing. So yea, so this a big milestone and we all togheter made this happen!
It's so great to see you're still going at it and weren't discouraged by all the advice people gave you, my sincerest congratulations to Bronze 1! Sounds like you're having a blast, so keep it up and you'll rush towards Gold and beyond in no time.
On May 04 2022 19:01 fps_daniel AKA Xpert wrote: No bro, post like yours kept me going! Your contribution wont be left unnoticed!! Keep it up
Good stuff bro. Seeing totally new players picking up this game gives hope to this 32 year old that I can and should return to actively playing! And I used to be somewhat daunting
It’s really fucking daunting, I kinda went the opposite way and, while I played Quake 3 casually as a kid, trying to play Quake Champions against long term veterans is brutal
Also haha I love how in a thread explicitly calling out Pig it’s another poster he corrects
On May 04 2022 19:01 fps_daniel AKA Xpert wrote: No bro, post like yours kept me going! Your contribution wont be left unnoticed!! Keep it up
Good stuff bro. Seeing totally new players picking up this game gives hope to this 32 year old that I can and should return to actively playing! And I used to be somewhat daunting
It’s really fucking daunting, I kinda went the opposite way and, while I played Quake 3 casually as a kid, trying to play Quake Champions against long term veterans is brutal
Also haha I love how in a thread explicitly calling out Pig it’s another poster he corrects
Well im 36 and just started playing again after some month break and it's still both fun and depressing btw also a former quaker but I quit Quake after I played the Quake Champions Beta because it just felt wrong. But well ladder also does in TvZ
EPT
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