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Hello all, I write up diamond BO's , so here it is!
Goal: Deny scouting , kill reaper (hopefully) ---> All in with 4-8 stalkers with a warp prism, juggling between natural wall and the main via warpprism suction range
BO
14 pylon
16 gate *Reaper wall helps alot but Idk how to do them on all maps.* Scout with probe, bully rax building scv to force another off mining,
17 x2 gas --> 2 in each
19 2nd gate,
20 cyber core as soon as gate #1 finishes
21 pylon
x2 stalkers and warpgate * Chrono stalker if you want to bully the reaper more, otherwise warpgate for faster reinforce with prism.
27/31 robo
27/31 x2 stalkers to 31 supply
31\31 pylon + 3rd gate
Prism next * chrono this, as it's the slowest seeming thing ever to both build and float across while harassing bunker
Gateway
Pylon
Gets dicey here
send stalkers cross map as soon as you get 4 leave 1 if reaper survives
after prism is done, you can build an observer to reinforce vs widowmines
Tactics: I tend to send all 4 stalkers to bully the bunker at the front which should have like 2-3 marines by this time.
Shooting the bunker until a stalkers shields go all the way down then pull microing it so the bunker will targetanother full shield stalker, you can actually get quite a bit of damage done this way if the other player isn't fast enough to retarget constantly.
After he pulls scvs to repair , you can instead switch to 1 shotting an scv since 4 stalks can do that. I usually only poke once and poke in again harder on the bunker if he pulls the scvs back to mining.
---> Then once hepulls the majority of his forces to teh nat wall
you move all stalkers towards the ramp in the main, closer = faster but also closer to the enemy, I mix this part up , but tend to favor the furthest corner I can pull stalkers up into the main.
*** be sure to morph prism then queue up dropping stalkers otherwise you dont drop stalkers to defend the prism while it morphs., this is actually huge.
you also have to repeatedly hit drop when ferrying stalkers up, some might also try to run into the nat wall if you have more than can be loaded into a prism,
---> Drop about 4 , warp 4 more and then ferry about 2-3 for a 12 stalker attack
The enemy usually has about 1 tank , and never expects the ferried stalkers that fast.
Thoughts? I will post some replays below if I can figure out how.
replay 1: I go harass\check for an expo with probe, ** super important to get scvs down to 30 hp if able, even taking hull dmg on probe is worth this since it makes the stalkers better vs the scv pull later , and every shot matters then.
I also microed the stalker with psuedo bllink prism vs the mine at the front before dropping everything in the back, this guy had twice my apm and despite my shite micro vs mines I still yanked the W.
https://drop.sc/replay/17927642
Replay 2: I get some good damage in with the probe, causing the reaper to be scouted and delayed a bit for saccing the probe. then I outmicro his tank due to a bad siege up, didn't even have to warp up this time.
https://drop.sc/replay/17929389
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When do you build the 4th gate? Or is it a 3-gate robo 4 stalker all-in?
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@dutroach,
srry, I get the 4th gate immediately after the warp prism ,
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On December 08 2020 12:11 Dillon1 wrote:
@dutroach,
srry, I get the 4th gate immediately after the warp prism ,
Thanks for the speedy reply.
EDIT: On some trial runs vs AI (they're stupid and don't harass with reaper or bunker up) I got to wondering if it's better to delay the warp gate in favour of a faster robo. Not sure what your thoughts on that might be?
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Hmm, I'll have to test it later.
Does it time out to having WG finished by the time the prism arrives,
Also my immediate thought is that if the reaper indeed gets by you the stalkers, the lack of WG researching might tip them off to build some extra defenses. though I imagine the response might to be build an early engi bay 9\10 times
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So, I've been trying out Stalker x2, Robo, then WG. I'm not sure whether you chronoboost your Nexus at any point in your build, but I've been doing it at first pylon completion, and somewhere around 19 gate. I'm sure everything's different if you use only one, and then double chrono the first stalkers instead of the WG ASAP.
The WG delay is not significant. Your next 50 gas would go to it, and by then, you're adding 3rd probes to the assimilators. Seems like the biggest issue is whether or not to chrono out stalkers, and getting the (31) pylon sooner (at 26-27, before starting the next stalkers), so that the prism isn't slowed.
The fourth gate almost always seems late to the party. It comes after WG finishes, a few seconds after the prism arrives at Terran. I'm not sure if you'd consider this better. I found that doing it the other way, WG was finishing as the prism was leaving home (which could be good defensively).
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Interesting build, it doesn't seem super hard to scout but it also seems to hit really hard, it's probably easy to underestimate.
Have you considered getting a battery in the main mineral line instead of leaving a stalker behind (if you don't kill the reaper)? I know a lot of gateway aggression builds do this (Maxpax, 1 gate + 1 proxy gate). Idk if it fits in the build, but it's cheaper than a stalker & doesn't cost gateway time, and most terrans will send the reaper straight home when you attack anyway.
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I wish the AI did more standard openers and actually walled off their ramp. The testing is literally a stomp once the warp prism arrives (if the first stalker pressure doesn't autowin). It would be interesting to try this build against some aggro play, or an in-base CC into cyclone, or cloaked banshees, etc. I wonder how I might react to scouting Protoss and not seeing a Nexus before cyber core, but instead seeing two gates and double gas.
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On December 09 2020 01:00 yubo56 wrote:
Interesting build, it doesn't seem super hard to scout but it also seems to hit really hard, it's probably easy to underestimate.
Have you considered getting a battery in the main mineral line instead of leaving a stalker behind (if you don't kill the reaper)? I know a lot of gateway aggression builds do this (Maxpax, 1 gate + 1 proxy gate). Idk if it fits in the build, but it's cheaper than a stalker & doesn't cost gateway time, and most terrans will send the reaper straight home when you attack anyway.
That actually sounds like a great idea,
Rarely do I not get the reaper with x2 stalker at my level of play however,
I send 1st and 2nd to the natural wall, to deny scouting on my nat expo unless they jump the alternate way. (Can always put it on the alternate way, but I find most send reaper into nat, thenjump up the wall behind mins if there is one)
2nd in main blocking jump ups along with a reaper wall if I'm smart enough to figure it out x}
With this placement, the reaper dies usually if it goes into my main, scouting the 2 gate robo at most,
I imagine they can think they are safe, perhaps thinking to themselves that it's just a observer expand or something, the real tipoff is spotting 2 more gateway units producing instead of a nexus. But imho their isn't much a terran can do as I usually have like 11 stalkers or so by the time they have 1 tech unit, (tank or a banshee) this hits before cloak btw iirc
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 08 2020 12:55 Dillon1 wrote:
Hmm, I'll have to test it later.
Does it time out to having WG finished by the time the prism arrives,
Also my immediate thought is that if the reaper indeed gets by you the stalkers, the lack of WG researching might tip them off to build some extra defenses. though I imagine the response might to be build an early engi bay 9\10 times
If we're talking about diamond then there's a good chance the reaper owner won't notice and even if he does, he thinks stargate, because it's the more popular choice IMO. I am in diamond and there was a time where I was doing wg -> +1 phoenix. And many zergs didn't mind the cyber core spinning while sitting next to the gateway  (read as zero anti-air or going into mutas)
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Yea, the idea of the robo first variation is to get that high-ground vision and prism micro sooner, and shortly after arrival to the front, the WG finishes anyway.
EDIT: The idea is also to more closely synchronize the completion of WG with the prism being at its destination (Terran lands). In my trials of WG before robo I was finding that I either warp-in at home, or stop the prism mid-journey to Terran's to get my warp-ins done. Otherwise, I wait for the prism to arrive, defeating the purpose of the earlier WG.
The the OP: Have you tried proxying your 21 pylon and delaying the robo to build it at the proxy? You can still do the earlier WG research, get that prism forward faster, and you end up with a spare warp-in point if the shit hits the fan (especially if you slap the 3rd or 4th gateway at the same proxy location). I imagine you'd have to get the scouting probe to do this, and hope it isn't followed.
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On December 09 2020 09:11 dUTtrOACh wrote:
Yea, the idea of the robo first variation is to get that high-ground vision and prism micro sooner, and shortly after arrival to the front, the WG finishes anyway.
EDIT: The idea is also to more closely synchronize the completion of WG with the prism being at its destination (Terran lands). In my trials of WG before robo I was finding that I either warp-in at home, or stop the prism mid-journey to Terran's to get my warp-ins done. Otherwise, I wait for the prism to arrive, defeating the purpose of the earlier WG.
The the OP: Have you tried proxying your 21 pylon and delaying the robo to build it at the proxy? You can still do the earlier WG research, get that prism forward faster, and you end up with a spare warp-in point if the shit hits the fan (especially if you slap the 3rd or 4th gateway at the same proxy location). I imagine you'd have to get the scouting probe to do this, and hope it isn't followed.
The reason I don't ever proxy my second pylon is that I saw once that people at higher tiers start to count your pylons and they immediately start scouting about for it if they don't see it at ~21 supply I'm guessing ... But by all means it can work if the person doesn't remember to scout.
Proxying the 4th gate seems viable too as the alternate fourth spot
By proxying the 31 pylon that is, I especially like putting it up behind the mineral wall on that one map. xD
By the sounds of it delaying WG might be optimal here actually, good work duttroach!
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I dunno about whether or not robo before WG is optimal, just throwing out that variation. Where you spend 2nd and 3rd chronoboosts, when you build the 2nd assimilator, and how many probes you put on gas will tip the scales one way or another. There may be situations where having 8 stalkers slightly earlier is better than having the forward prism. As mentioned by others, there may be situations where squeezing in a shield battery could be beneficial, too. Needs more testing, particularly real-world (PvP) testing.
EDIT: Bear in mind also, I'm main race Terran.
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Know that delaying WG until after tech is another good signal to Terran that he's being allined. 2gate with warpgate could be pressure before expand (though rare in current meta).
Needs replays against Terran that puts up two more bunkers after verifying 1base allin, as well as Terran that pop out a cyclone for prism hunting or suspecting a different kind of allin.
2-3 marines only as a defense by the time the Protoss has had opportunity to warp 4 stalkers and run them across the map is unlikely. Replays can prove me wrong on this. (But then again, 2gate stalkers regularly snagging the reaper is also unlikely. He has scouted no expansion and 2 gates, so should (suicide) move it in to check tech only after first stalkers have moved out.
All that being said, it sounds good for terrans that haven't seen many 1base allins to underestimate it and underpull or skimp on bunkers.
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wouldnt this build benefit from chronoing a zealot out to contest the terrans natural right from the get go?
I know from personal experience that it is super annoying to have to use your reaper to kite down a zealot, its a lot of work and on occasion you might actually miss it, it gets to delay your expo and you wont even be able to put up a lowground bunker.
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The problem with these kind of builds is that good terrans won’t lose the reaper, and will scout no expansion. The answer is then usually to lift of natural and stay on 1 base with double mule and get tanks. Also stalkers are bad at dealing with scv pull.
To make this build better I would consider proxying the robo getting 1 immortal + 1 warprism, 3 gates and proxying 3 shield batteries under their ramp.
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I actually thinks you should hide your stalker, or build adepts from your gate.
If the terran thinks it is proxy void rays, they will build cyclone first from the factory, and your build should autowin against it.
If you show your stalker, too much gas is invested and they won't think its stargate anymore, and they will get tanks immediately, which greatly decrease the success rate of this build.
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On December 10 2020 23:55 Geiko wrote:
The problem with these kind of builds is that good terrans won’t lose the reaper, and will scout no expansion. The answer is then usually to lift of natural and stay on 1 base with double mule and get tanks. Also stalkers are bad at dealing with scv pull.
To make this build better I would consider proxying the robo getting 1 immortal + 1 warprism, 3 gates and proxying 3 shield batteries under their ramp.
A cheese master returns.
I literally thought this was an old thread from WOL that someone bumped. I'm inclined to believe this build isn't good; I'd rather see a two base variation for LOTV due to the economy (or even a last second Nexus cancel), but we need replays to judge the validity of it. And knowing what league you are in makes a huge difference too.
Depending on killing the Reaper or denying scouting isn't a good idea. Maybe open with a Max Pax to throw them off?
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Just think of this as a budget Blink Stalker all-in.
If the Terran responds properly (by lifting their natural and building well-placed Bunkers) then you'll never break them. If they try to defend both their natural and their main at the same time then you have a chance of pulling them apart.
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On December 24 2020 00:00 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2020 23:55 Geiko wrote:
The problem with these kind of builds is that good terrans won’t lose the reaper, and will scout no expansion. The answer is then usually to lift of natural and stay on 1 base with double mule and get tanks. Also stalkers are bad at dealing with scv pull.
To make this build better I would consider proxying the robo getting 1 immortal + 1 warprism, 3 gates and proxying 3 shield batteries under their ramp. A cheese master returns. I literally thought this was an old thread from WOL that someone bumped. I'm inclined to believe this build isn't good; I'd rather see a two base variation for LOTV due to the economy (or even a last second Nexus cancel), but we need replays to judge the validity of it. And knowing what league you are in makes a huge difference too. Depending on killing the Reaper or denying scouting isn't a good idea. Maybe open with a Max Pax to throw them off?
Haha, I haven’t played in a long long time and have been trying various cheeses to get back in the game. I’m at about 5k mmr and can guarantee that no terran at that level is going to lose to a 1 base allin with no tech (ie pure stalker).
For 1 base cheeses to work you need:
-tech: either voidray (into tempest) or immortals
-tech needs to be proxied
-proxy shield battery
I’ve beaten quite a few GMs with the 3 gate proxy robo build I told OP about.
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Added a replay showcasing not only my bad micro but most of the build if it goes correctly,
The warp prism micro vs mines is essential I'm finding.
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EPT
