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Hello,
Is there a Macro oriented strategy that transitions into either Mech or Bio (basically a variation of 1/1/1) without being behind of the protoss ?
I analysed a lot of replays and and stats and every build that isn't a 2base 5rax all in seems to put me behind of the protoss in both economy, tech and army supply.
The only builds that put me on even economy with protoss are 3CC builds like for example a classic reaper 3CC.
BUT: Those builds are very greedy in the current meta and often times lead to straight up build order losses.
You may end up with even worker count, but you're behind in everything else and you lack the units to even get your 3rd on location and secure it.
So basically the better option is still to play standard macro build, but as i said, it seems like you end up behind by default. The only option left is harassing your opponent, which is honestly pretty difficult on the current patch.
Hellion openings can get scouted and a wall off is enough to hold such attacks
Widow mines can get countered by map awareness alone, so you won't be able to get the dmg in against high level protoss players
Banshees can get countered by both SG and Robo builds and if protoss goes for twilight he can place batteries or cannons to defend them.
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So this is my experience as a M1 terran on EU.
Please share your opinions and thoughts on the current matchup, because i really dont know what to do anymore.
Is Macro 1/1/1 just a dead build in the current meta ? Is some sort of 3rax variation your best bet if you wanna play macro ?
Let's have a discussion !
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i can't offer advice about playing high level terran, but i do think your mentality seems bad. listing builds and saying "this doesn't work because they can counter it" makes no sense, what do you want? builds that do damage with no possible counterplay? your opponent's reaction to your at attacks is one measure of who's the better player
maybe protoss is a bit favored in macro, maybe not, but a bad mentality will hurt you whether it's balanced or not
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why do you think i have a bad mentality ? i really just try to figure out the game. I like to play mech, but i just cant find a macro build that transitions into it (i know that mech is not good vs protoss, but thats not the point. i just wanna find a viable economic opening)
Of course protoss should be able to counter my harassment, but the point of my thread is that it seems like it's impossible to play standard macro builds vs protoss without being behind by default, without anything happening in the game.
So basically you're behind because you chose to play a macro build and if you're unable to compensate your situation with harassment damage, you won't be able to catch up.
This leads to terran being forced to deal a lot of damage early on.
For example if you play reaper FE 1/1/1, basically one of the most standard terran macro builds and protoss opens up SG, you're pinned in your base, forced to build turrets or keep units at home for oracle defense. Meanwhile protoss can already take his 3rd nexus and without stim you won't be able to punish it.
So since terran cant push with a 1/1/1, you have to go for the harassment options in order to catch up, but as i said in the OP terrans harassment is very limited this patch and basically every harassment option can get countered easily by protoss even if they're on fast 3 nexus.
And terrans 3CC builds are extremely vulnerable as i mentioned in the OP.
So basically protoss 3Nexus = Safe / Terran 3CC = not viable
The big question again is:
"Is there a Macro oriented strategy that transitions into either Mech or Bio (basically a variation of 1/1/1) without being behind of the protoss ?"
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I gave up on playing macro vs P, and I open proxy reaper into reactored cyclones at home, 2nd CC, 5 rax, all in. Roughly 80% with rate at low master. Only Feardragon stopped me with a cheeky DT all in in response :D
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On August 24 2018 03:43 Fran_ wrote:
I gave up on playing macro vs P, and I open proxy reaper into reactored cyclones at home, 2nd CC, 5 rax, all in. Roughly 80% with rate at low master. Only Feardragon stopped me with a cheeky DT all in in response :D
you don't make me hope haha, but thanks for the response man
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Gm p here.
I think the point you have to realize is that p get a 3rd quicker doesn’t mean he is ahead. A Terran can definitely out trade him, being more cost effective and eventually making the Protoss do not have enough resources to transition to the next phase.
Also I want to point out the reason that t goes 2base all in and have a good win rate is because most of the Protoss is very greedy e.g double forge and Robo tech after a quick 3rd. A Terran can easily get a free win with all in if the Protoss is too greedy.
However, if the p isn’t greedy, single forge and gateway tech(hts), a Terran can have assess to widow mines and libs at two base, You can go out and trade and then expand behind this, but you don’t NEED to do economic damage, you can just out trade his gateway army and just chop him down bit by bit.
Build wise, I think 1-1-1 isn’t bad at all, you can deal with mostly anything that p trying to do. The build also give you access to factory unit which is essential for you to trade with the Protoss at mid game.
I hope this help.
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France12932 Posts
Thanks for the insight samchan
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Below pro level almost any strategy is viable if you execute it correctly.
I play mech in all matchups and I think I finally have it to work in TvP as well.
I used to open banshees or reactor cyclones but those openings while decent for early pressure often lead to a weaker midgame.
Nowadays I open with tanks and reactor barracks for marine production. I go up to 6 factories (3 Tech, 3 reactor) and do a tank/hellbat push before Carriers. If I see that he is transition to air I immediately switch all my factories to cyclone production and try to overwhelm him while his Carrier count is low.
The key points that my TvP go from bad to ok was the following realizations:
1) Banshees are not worth it.
2) Harassment is not worth it since you need lots of hellbats to protect your tanks.
3) Only expand when Protoss expands.
4) Cyclone is useless vs ground but excellent vs Carriers if you use rapid fire and overwhelm him when his air count is low.
5) Always attack when he starts his air transition.
Obviously bio is better if you just care about MMR but mech is doable on ladder level.
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so... is there a safe macro opening that puts you on even foot with protoss ?
*edit: stimless macro opening
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On August 27 2018 22:55 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote:
so... is there a safe macro opening that puts you on even foot with protoss ?
*edit: stimless macro opening
how to stay even with protoss:
~ force toss into low economy situations. low economy terran > low economy protoss.
~ force toss into low tech situations
terran earlygame tech > protoss earlygame tech
terran lategame tech < protoss lategame tech
1-1-1 is a very powerful swiss army knife. you want to squeeze 1-1-1 for all its worth, while its worth anything at all. make the most of your factory before it becomes useless. make tanks, make cyclones, make banshees... make the raven while you can... because you won't get another opportunity to make a raven until the supreme lategame
~ force toss to make lots of units during the earlygame. delay his tech, delay his splash units, delay upgrades. remember, low economy / low tech scenarios favor terran. some ideas off the top of my head:
toss skips the stargate? make cloaked banshees. this keeps the robo busy building observers instead of the other 4 scary units
toss makes stalkers + obs? great. cyclones attack the front, banshees attack the mineral lines. this forces him to split his army in 2. low amount of cyclones > low amount of stalkers. use your cyclones to maximize the effectiveness of your banshees... stop making banshees when toss has shield batteries in the mineral line, obs in the mineral line, and enough stalkers to hold off your cyclones at the front. you want to transition out of cyclone / banshee slightly before toss has enough to defend. you don't waste a production cycle on your starport / factory making harass units that ultimately won't achieve much.
toss makes immortal to counter your cyclones? great. build tanks for short-term defense, slap down 3rd cc, start massing marines, make a raven and / or viking to stop the warp prism. these things will all help us to push his third base later.
toss counterattacks with warp prism? we already have a raven and / or a viking to deal with that, cuz we were thinking pre-emptively. next thing you wanna make from starport is a liberator. liberators are great at harass when toss army is on the other side of the map... you force another round of stalkers. if toss is warping in stalkers after your liberator has started sieging, you already got your money's worth. delayed mining + 2 guaranteed probe kills (the probes that were stuck inside the assimilators while he was dragging his probes to safety)
~ keep the army supply low on both sides for as long as possible during the earlygame. small amount of terran units > small amount of toss units.
what to take away from this? you can't just make a 3rd cc while sitting back, doing nothing. the only way to sit back doing nothing is if you're gearing up for a 2-base all-in (bunny tank push, 2-1-1, etc). and even if you're going for a 2-base all-in, you should probably be doing something to harass. 3cc macro builds are harass-oriented. that is the nature of terran macro. harass keeps you safe. attack is the best defense, blah blah blah. gumiho is the only S-class terran doing macro 3-base vP nowadays. ty has given up. maru has given up. play like gumiho
here's something fun to try: send out 2 scvs around the time your 1st supply depot finishes. gas steal with the 1st scv, ebay block with the 2nd scv, and take double gas back at home.
reactor factory / techlab starport. cyclones, hellions, banshees... switch the barracks back onto the reactor as soon as you sniff a warp prism and start building tanks. sometimes you want to keep building cyclones... sometimes you only want to build 2 before switching to tanks. you can keep building cyclones with impunity so long as toss is on the defensive. gas steal + ebay block is a great learning exercise because it teaches you what toss is capable of in the earlygame... an opportunity for you to fine-tune your unit selections and low eco play.
the same principle applies to upgrades. you want to squeeze the most out of 1-1 while you can. 1/1 terran > 1/1 protoss. being even on upgrades vs toss is like being 2 upgrades ahead of toss, when you factor in the power of stimmed MMM vs gateway units
this is an extreme example of how to squeeze the most out of 1-1-1 while the economy is low. you will be surprised how comfortable it is to transition into 3CC from here. the less silly version is to go gas first, marine instead of reaper, expand, fact / reactor, x2 cyclone production into 3cc. watch gumiho's games on basetradetv / osc and his stream. this is his go-to macro build these days
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Thank you very much shodan for this detailed post. i will try out your suggestion and try to make it work. All the "oldschool" builds i used to play just dont work anymore, so i guess it's time to play less oldschool and more innovative aggression. trying to force defensive structures out of protoss in early game etc.
Right now i always find myself in a defensive position, building both a natural bunker and turrets in each mineral line, this alone just puts me so far behind everytime.
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You have two choices: heavy pressure the protoss around 6:30 to trade before going into the midgame, or grabbing a 3rd CC so you can keep up without attacking. Both are fine.
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On September 03 2018 17:48 -HuShang- wrote:
You have two choices: heavy pressure the protoss around 6:30 to trade before going into the midgame, or grabbing a 3rd CC so you can keep up without attacking. Both are fine.
what kind of 3CC variation are you specifically talking about ? I tested reaper 3CC for a while and even though i was even on economy i was almost always way too behind on unit production and tech, so i wasn't able to secure my 3rd on a good timing.
Also i obviously lacked any mapcontrol or meaningful harassment, so in the end atleast the reaper 3CC didnt seem to be worth it.
i also tested a gas first cyclone 3CC for a while, opening with 2 hellions/reaper for light pressure.. this one actually seemed quite solid for a while, but often times i BO losed to midgame timings because my production was delayed. so was able to secure the 3rd vs blink stalkerl, but then just lost to a later timing with superior upgrades and army.
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M3 here, I open 1/1/1 wm medivac +4 marines and drop and go 3 OC from here.
The timing the build hits is when protoss wants to do harass if that's what he planned so you gotta scout that and make sure your drop doesn't die for no reason, or that you have no units at home.
If he opened safe, 1 gate -> cyber -> stargate/robo then the drop covers your 3rd CC, because he's gonna be at home dealing with ur stuff while you're expanding.
After this you either add 2 more rax or 2 engy bays and keep macroing up.
going 2 rax is safer.
After the medivac you make a liberator and beeline for their natural cause you can't let him feel safe or he's gonna beat you in the mid game.
The drop lets you scout his game plan, he could still be going for blink all in if that's what he planned.
You scout HT/Robo Bay/Fast upgrades and just react accordingly.
But I really like 3 rax openner, google Maru 3 rax 3 OC.
But you did say "a stimless opener" so I didn't want to include it.
With maru's 3 rax 3 OC you can literally stim to win and kill a fast 3rd, if he has no fast third and he's teching up you can often times do fat damage at his natural. This delays whatever he's doing and buys time for the fast 3rd (which come before factory).
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I will look for the heavy pressure before the midgame and without grabbing the 3rd cc. I hope this will be good for the game. [...] will suggest stimless macro opening.
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