From the race that brought you BBQ-Drone ribs and Freedom Circles comes their latest piece of ingenuity: Open-Cut MULEing. Because a race that likes blowing shit up should also enjoy tearing nature apart and contaminating the ground-water with experimental MULE metals. Once the damage is done they can always just lift up and move on, leaving the native automatons to live a Wall-E like existence cleaning up all the shit they left behind.
Terran, F*$! Yeah.
So onto the serious stuff . I had a discussion with Demuslim at DH Valencia about a very different MULEing technique to fully utilise the LoTV economy and the Terran's ability to re-establish their bases, and finally got around to fully investigating it and putting up a video.
The PiG Daily #51 - Open Cut Muleing - A new way to build Terran Economy
VoD:
TL;DR - Drop 2 Mules on each of your close (1500mins) patches in your main through the first 8 minutes of the game. All your patches will run out at the same time between 8-9:00 and you immediately lift to the 4th base (or 3rd if doing a 2-base all-in). You sacrifice a relatively minor hiccup in your economy in order to open up a lot more mineral patches overall hence
1) Reducing the drastic income fall-off with 2-base allins for a lull in your pressure 2) Allowing you to utilise a much larger SCV count by opening up the 4th mineral line super fast (for heavier macro plays)
I'll try to think of using that technique from now on.
The only reason i can think of not to do that is that you mine out the main much faster as opposed to muling new bases. In scrappy games where expansions got killed and you can't really lift up because contain or whatever else, you basically have no income left, but it's kind of a rare situation.
Hi man, saw the last part of the video regarding the fuck up on Galactic Process, and the whole standard mineral line is a looong story that dates back to issues in pathing and geyser inefficiencies, because of those asymmetric inefficiencies in geyser positioning mineral lines had to adapt to it, Blizzard always sucked dick regarding using mineral lines that didn't suck, and now that Blizzard did changed to the worker pathing to fix the vespene inefficiencies all the work of the old "standard mineral line" is quite outdated, + now the mineral lines need to deal with the design burden of needing to be symmetrical because of the new 900 mineral patches. But again, now it is actually kind of possible to do that because we don't need to worry so much about geyser inefficiencies.
Anyhow, the Galactic Process thing, to me it looks like a fuck up on Blizz end, but can't be sure because NewSunshine the creator has been kind of MIA ever since Blizz changed his map without asking for permission ("normal" stuff for mapmakers to deal with).
Regarding the core of the video itself the idea fits with the general curve of the LotV economic system, that said, because of the same curve using this economic tactic as the backbone of (only) doing a 2 base timing push in my eyes would be a inefficient way to play, what you are basically doing here is to put the ecology of the mineral lines second over the income rate and this way abuse the mobility of Terran buildings to gain a considerable increase in economic efficiency over the other races. SC2 with his soft 3 base income cap already pushes players to not have more than 4 bases at any time. Meaning that there is a reachable maximum economic efficiency for the players in which Terran has not only the building advantage meaning that the race does not need to leave buildings behind like P or Z, but Mules, who mine at the rate of ~4 workers each. Ever since the new system of LotV was set up I worried about T becoming much more problematic from an efficiency point of view compared to the other races, in HotS this was already the case, but here in LotV, idk. I'm just worried about the future and more band-aid patches to correct underlying problems in the eco.
But enough of my whining, the concept is solid Pig, I think that if you find a way to get Korean Terrans to play this style of lifting the Orbitals and develop a ~3 base aggressive Bio style/doctrine to go along with it there will be no stopping them until Blizz steps up and nerfs something like OC fly time (or liftoff at all), Mule or buffs the other races so they are able to handle the by then "new" style (which again, is not something I think should be done, but I digress)
I'm going long here, Pig you said in the vid that you might want to talk with mapmakers regarding mineral positionig, if you want send me a pm with your skype info so we can chat a bit, tho beware that it might need to be a short discussion because these last few months have been very very busy for me, I don't have much free time at all.
I like the idea for a 2 base allin. The bigger picture here is utilizing mules to streamline your mineral income effeciency. I have done this in the past by purposefully muling my main/nat to free up scvs for when I take a fast 4th base and I have secured 4 bases and need to saturate it, but can't, without increasing my scv count.
Can you do stuff like this consistently? probably not
Is it a cool different way to think about how mules work in conjunction to the terran economy? for sure
Based on how terran production works though, I think the terran player will tend to favor a more consistent mineral income rate for a longer period of time then trying to mine out their bases faster in most cases
On September 02 2016 03:29 EJK wrote: I like the idea for a 2 base allin. The bigger picture here is utilizing mules to streamline your mineral income effeciency. I have done this in the past by purposefully muling my main/nat to free up scvs for when I take a fast 4th base and I have secured 4 bases and need to saturate it, but can't, without increasing my scv count.
Can you do stuff like this consistently? probably not
Is it a cool different way to think about how mules work in conjunction to the terran economy? for sure
Based on how terran production works though, I think the terran player will tend to favor a more consistent mineral income rate for a longer period of time then trying to mine out their bases faster in most cases
A few people told me Innovation actually did this back in Nation Wars with his 2-base 2-2 marine tank all-in with a very fast lift to the 3rd. I think with 2-base all-ins there's absolutely zero reason not to do it so makes perfect sense. I'm going to go check VoDs back from nation wars now!
As for if it's worth it with more standard 3-base builds. I'm convinced it usually will be on maps with a close 4th. On frozen for instance with a 40 second float time you lose roughly: 460 minerals (310 mining and 150 from the 2 refineries you have to replace) and 220 gas (only 4 far patches get mined if you leave it there).
Within 1-minute of landing the base you've already mined back the mineral difference (assuming you have a full 60+scvs).
You will have a fully mining base back at 935minerals/minute + 312gas/minute. Every 30 seconds of mining minerals is = to a full minute mining on the previous base. So you overtake where you would have been in about a minute 25 seconds from the initial lift (40 seconds lift - 30 seconds mining to catch up in income, 15 seconds to catch up the refineries
So from the time of lift to the time of catching up to where you previous income rate would have gotten you to - it's roughly 1 minute 25 seconds
So it's actually almost always worthwhile to use this over the other methods - as long as lowered income in that 1 minute 25 seconds doesn't lose you a major strategic advantage. You need to make sure you have a little extra gas banked to avoid hiccups in tech-unit production though.
At the moment most Terran players aren't using this and the more I rewatch the VoD - discuss with people and make more calculations - the more I'm convinced that Terran players are severely handicapping themselves in LoTV by not using this method (or at least lifting their base MUCH faster). A big part of why Terran has been falling off so hard in the late mid-game might be solved through this technique.
Just using it today I won multiple games where I thought I had completely screwed the pooch
On September 01 2016 00:51 Kantuva wrote: Hi man, saw the last part of the video regarding the fuck up on Galactic Process, and the whole standard mineral line is a looong story that dates back to issues in pathing and geyser inefficiencies, because of those asymmetric inefficiencies in geyser positioning mineral lines had to adapt to it, Blizzard always sucked dick regarding using mineral lines that didn't suck, and now that Blizzard did changed to the worker pathing to fix the vespene inefficiencies all the work of the old "standard mineral line" is quite outdated, + now the mineral lines need to deal with the design burden of needing to be symmetrical because of the new 900 mineral patches. But again, now it is actually kind of possible to do that because we don't need to worry so much about geyser inefficiencies.
Anyhow, the Galactic Process thing, to me it looks like a fuck up on Blizz end, but can't be sure because NewSunshine the creator has been kind of MIA ever since Blizz changed his map without asking for permission ("normal" stuff for mapmakers to deal with).
Regarding the core of the video itself the idea fits with the general curve of the LotV economic system, that said, because of the same curve using this economic tactic as the backbone of (only) doing a 2 base timing push in my eyes would be a inefficient way to play, what you are basically doing here is to put the ecology of the mineral lines second over the income rate and this way abuse the mobility of Terran buildings to gain a considerable increase in economic efficiency over the other races. SC2 with his soft 3 base income cap already pushes players to not have more than 4 bases at any time. Meaning that there is a reachable maximum economic efficiency for the players in which Terran has not only the building advantage meaning that the race does not need to leave buildings behind like P or Z, but Mules, who mine at the rate of ~4 workers each. Ever since the new system of LotV was set up I worried about T becoming much more problematic from an efficiency point of view compared to the other races, in HotS this was already the case, but here in LotV, idk. I'm just worried about the future and more band-aid patches to correct underlying problems in the eco.
But enough of my whining, the concept is solid Pig, I think that if you find a way to get Korean Terrans to play this style of lifting the Orbitals and develop a ~3 base aggressive Bio style/doctrine to go along with it there will be no stopping them until Blizz steps up and nerfs something like OC fly time (or liftoff at all), Mule or buffs the other races so they are able to handle the by then "new" style (which again, is not something I think should be done, but I digress)
I'm going long here, Pig you said in the vid that you might want to talk with mapmakers regarding mineral positionig, if you want send me a pm with your skype info so we can chat a bit, tho beware that it might need to be a short discussion because these last few months have been very very busy for me, I don't have much free time at all.
Interesting, PMd you to chat more. Consistency on these mineral lines would be great - in a game that focuses so much on consistent build orders on pre-set maps the minerals being consistent is actually very important. I remember in the past the difference between maps like overgrowth and Catallena were ridiculous. On one map you could get your hatchery down like 8 seconds faster than the other whilst playing identically. Really silly.
On August 31 2016 23:35 ArtyK wrote: Demuling!
I'll try to think of using that technique from now on.
The only reason i can think of not to do that is that you mine out the main much faster as opposed to muling new bases. In scrappy games where expansions got killed and you can't really lift up because contain or whatever else, you basically have no income left, but it's kind of a rare situation.
I actually played multiple games today where things went bad - as long as I wasn't completely contained (usually dead anyway) then this actually helped me come back from games where my 3rd was sniped and so on. Most of the time it allows you to bounce back much stronger in messy situations imo.
Outside of an all in where you really don't want to build an additional command center this doesn't make sense to do. A mineral patch is a mineral patch (with some small close/far differences). If you're happy with your worker count, it doesn't matter if the workers are at the main or the fourth as long as you're not oversaturated. By having some workers in the main you're limiting harassment losses as well. The fourth is frequently a planetary and even in the case that it's an orbital, the additional orbital certainly doesn't hurt.
If you're in a situation where you get contained on three bases or are unable to secure a fourth right away mining out the main so quickly would actually be extremely detrimental to you because you can't make up that lost income.
On September 02 2016 22:58 TheWinks wrote: Outside of an all in where you really don't want to build an additional command center this doesn't make sense to do. A mineral patch is a mineral patch (with some small close/far differences). If you're happy with your worker count, it doesn't matter if the workers are at the main or the fourth as long as you're not oversaturated. By having some workers in the main you're limiting harassment losses as well. The fourth is frequently a planetary and even in the case that it's an orbital, the additional orbital certainly doesn't hurt.
If you're in a situation where you get contained on three bases or are unable to secure a fourth right away mining out the main so quickly would actually be extremely detrimental to you because you can't make up that lost income.
The point is to mine out all the patches at the same time so you don't leave like 4 when lifting up (or mine those 4 patches for ages = less income) So it's still a useful tip even if you lift up at the 5th or something. Although i'm not sure how much gas left in the main there would be at around 9 minutes, maybe that's a waste, but then again terran don't miss gas at this point of the game in general.
On September 02 2016 22:58 TheWinks wrote: Outside of an all in where you really don't want to build an additional command center this doesn't make sense to do. A mineral patch is a mineral patch (with some small close/far differences). If you're happy with your worker count, it doesn't matter if the workers are at the main or the fourth as long as you're not oversaturated. By having some workers in the main you're limiting harassment losses as well. The fourth is frequently a planetary and even in the case that it's an orbital, the additional orbital certainly doesn't hurt.
If you're in a situation where you get contained on three bases or are unable to secure a fourth right away mining out the main so quickly would actually be extremely detrimental to you because you can't make up that lost income.
The point is to mine out all the patches at the same time so you don't leave like 4 when lifting up (or mine those 4 patches for ages = less income) So it's still a useful tip even if you lift up at the 5th or something. Although i'm not sure how much gas left in the main there would be at around 9 minutes, maybe that's a waste, but then again terran don't miss gas at this point of the game in general.
As long as you're not oversaturated at any mineral patches it doesn't matter at all. Leaving mineral patches behind doesn't matter either. In most cases I think you want to extend the life of your main and nat as long as possible because they are more defensible and because of the potential difficulty of expanding in the future like I mentioned.
On September 02 2016 22:58 TheWinks wrote: Outside of an all in where you really don't want to build an additional command center this doesn't make sense to do. A mineral patch is a mineral patch (with some small close/far differences). If you're happy with your worker count, it doesn't matter if the workers are at the main or the fourth as long as you're not oversaturated. By having some workers in the main you're limiting harassment losses as well. The fourth is frequently a planetary and even in the case that it's an orbital, the additional orbital certainly doesn't hurt.
If you're in a situation where you get contained on three bases or are unable to secure a fourth right away mining out the main so quickly would actually be extremely detrimental to you because you can't make up that lost income.
The point is to mine out all the patches at the same time so you don't leave like 4 when lifting up (or mine those 4 patches for ages = less income) So it's still a useful tip even if you lift up at the 5th or something. Although i'm not sure how much gas left in the main there would be at around 9 minutes, maybe that's a waste, but then again terran don't miss gas at this point of the game in general.
As long as you're not oversaturated at any mineral patches it doesn't matter at all. Leaving mineral patches behind doesn't matter either. In most cases I think you want to extend the life of your main and nat as long as possible because they are more defensible and because of the potential difficulty of expanding in the future like I mentioned.
But your income drops down significantly if you have 4 mineral patches left instead of 8 because you threw your mules on the wrong patches.
On September 02 2016 22:58 TheWinks wrote: Outside of an all in where you really don't want to build an additional command center this doesn't make sense to do. A mineral patch is a mineral patch (with some small close/far differences). If you're happy with your worker count, it doesn't matter if the workers are at the main or the fourth as long as you're not oversaturated. By having some workers in the main you're limiting harassment losses as well. The fourth is frequently a planetary and even in the case that it's an orbital, the additional orbital certainly doesn't hurt.
If you're in a situation where you get contained on three bases or are unable to secure a fourth right away mining out the main so quickly would actually be extremely detrimental to you because you can't make up that lost income.
The point is to mine out all the patches at the same time so you don't leave like 4 when lifting up (or mine those 4 patches for ages = less income) So it's still a useful tip even if you lift up at the 5th or something. Although i'm not sure how much gas left in the main there would be at around 9 minutes, maybe that's a waste, but then again terran don't miss gas at this point of the game in general.
As long as you're not oversaturated at any mineral patches it doesn't matter at all. Leaving mineral patches behind doesn't matter either. In most cases I think you want to extend the life of your main and nat as long as possible because they are more defensible and because of the potential difficulty of expanding in the future like I mentioned.
But your income drops down significantly if you have 4 mineral patches left instead of 8 because you threw your mules on the wrong patches.
That's why I included 'as long as you're not oversaturated'. If I take a 4th and have 4 patches still left in the main and I transfer the rest to the 4th and continue to transfer them as those patches mine out, it doesn't really matter when they mine out. My income is consistent. If anything my income is slightly better in the short term because I'm delaying the loss of minerals from the transfer and my SCVs are safer from harassment. If I fly my main to a 3rd because I'm doing a 2 base all in and there are only 4 patches left I don't actually lose any income not mining those 4 patches. The main benefit is actually the natural lasting longer because I efficiently muled the main instead of hitting the nat.
On September 02 2016 22:58 TheWinks wrote: Outside of an all in where you really don't want to build an additional command center this doesn't make sense to do. A mineral patch is a mineral patch (with some small close/far differences). If you're happy with your worker count, it doesn't matter if the workers are at the main or the fourth as long as you're not oversaturated. By having some workers in the main you're limiting harassment losses as well. The fourth is frequently a planetary and even in the case that it's an orbital, the additional orbital certainly doesn't hurt.
If you're in a situation where you get contained on three bases or are unable to secure a fourth right away mining out the main so quickly would actually be extremely detrimental to you because you can't make up that lost income.
The point is to mine out all the patches at the same time so you don't leave like 4 when lifting up (or mine those 4 patches for ages = less income) So it's still a useful tip even if you lift up at the 5th or something. Although i'm not sure how much gas left in the main there would be at around 9 minutes, maybe that's a waste, but then again terran don't miss gas at this point of the game in general.
As long as you're not oversaturated at any mineral patches it doesn't matter at all. Leaving mineral patches behind doesn't matter either. In most cases I think you want to extend the life of your main and nat as long as possible because they are more defensible and because of the potential difficulty of expanding in the future like I mentioned.
But your income drops down significantly if you have 4 mineral patches left instead of 8 because you threw your mules on the wrong patches.
That's why I included 'as long as you're not oversaturated'. If I take a 4th and have 4 patches still left in the main and I transfer the rest to the 4th and continue to transfer them as those patches mine out, it doesn't really matter when they mine out. My income is consistent. If anything my income is slightly better in the short term because I'm delaying the loss of minerals from the transfer and my SCVs are safer from harassment. If I fly my main to a 3rd because I'm doing a 2 base all in and there are only 4 patches left I don't actually lose any income not mining those 4 patches. The main benefit is actually the natural lasting longer because I efficiently muled the main instead of hitting the nat.
Short term your income also is better from not transferring and having 8 mineral patches available longer, especially if your 4th isn't done or started anyway
I'd just like to see this technique successfully used in a pro game that isn't 2 base allin
On September 02 2016 22:58 TheWinks wrote: Outside of an all in where you really don't want to build an additional command center this doesn't make sense to do. A mineral patch is a mineral patch (with some small close/far differences). If you're happy with your worker count, it doesn't matter if the workers are at the main or the fourth as long as you're not oversaturated. By having some workers in the main you're limiting harassment losses as well. The fourth is frequently a planetary and even in the case that it's an orbital, the additional orbital certainly doesn't hurt.
If you're in a situation where you get contained on three bases or are unable to secure a fourth right away mining out the main so quickly would actually be extremely detrimental to you because you can't make up that lost income.
As I talk about in the video - there's a lot of players going up to 70-75 scvs most games and getting no use out of them. For these players they need to either:
1) Cut workers earlier OR 2) Start using this method. 3) Secure a 4th base by 8:30-9:00 (pretty damn rare for this to be possible)
So it actually makes a lot of sense to start thinking about optimal scv counts and using this method if you want to play with those larger economies.
If the answer for most players ends up being 1) - then a lot of Terran's should probably be aware that they should stop at around 58 scvs most games, and only add more right up to securing that 4th base. Those last 8-18 scvs some players (including pros) are still pumping out really should be invested in army instead.
On September 02 2016 15:45 terran4lyfe wrote: For a 2 base allin this seems to make sense. But in a normal macro game, most Terrans want a PF at the fourth.
I agree. However if Terran's income didn't stifle so much, maybe they could get away without it.
Also just being aware of this option would help builds such as this one where if Bomber took a 5th gas a little earlier to prepare for the income hiccup, and then lifted his main to the 4th 3 minutes earlier at 8:00 rather than 11:00 he would have mined a lot more minerals (over 900 minerals if my maths is correct) by the 11:00 mark. He still wins this game but it might have been even more overwhelming if he made use of this.
Of course you give up that little bit of "faster" income for this, and invest in the gas - so maybe with these 3-base builds giving up the momentum just isn't worth it at the moment as you need to stop zerg getting to Ultras. If mech or lategame styles become very strong for Terran though... then I can see this being the optimal approach to use every game
EPT
. I had a discussion with Demuslim at DH Valencia about a very different MULEing technique to fully utilise the LoTV economy and the Terran's ability to re-establish their bases, and finally got around to fully investigating it and putting up a video.
