In the SSL Finals Dark made a lot of use of a groundbreaking ZvP style. He used early baneling drops, fast melee upgrades and a focus on pure lingbane to survive the midgame whilst teching incredibly quickly towards broodlords. The first time I saw an archon-immortal army get completely shrekt by ling-bane I thought I had gone crazy. I must have missed a huge army advantage or something! But since then I've seen other players like Soo adapting the style and often crushing huge armies with many archons in them through the explosive power and supply efficiency of ling-bane.
My first few games doing a really sloppy imitation of the style I was already beating players that had been slaughtering my other playstyles - even though my timings were sloppy as all hell. That was the moment I knew this was something Protoss would have a hard time reacting to and went and wrote down all the timings and studied up on the build. I'm confident this is one of the best ways to put reasonably low risk pressure onto Protoss whilst building a great economy and teching very fast behind it.
I Did a group coaching session where I run through most of the key points in the style:
For the opening I'm confident you can make this work off 3-hatch before pool, however because the ovie speed hits later it's a little more awkward reacting to very fast oracles, dts etc. If you opt for that build I'd advise taking the 2nd gas earlier alongside the slightly delayed evo + bane nest, all at 4:00. If you want to open up with a threatening 17 gas 17 pool opening check out the VoD on map 6 on Lerilak where Dark does this - knowing that Stats will be paranoid about the roach-ling timing he crushed him with in the Upper Bracket finals.
Hatch gas pool hatch Opening
20 3rd hatch
Queen from natural
Don’t pull off gas
25 ovie
28 queen
3rd queen from 3rd hatch (36 supply, 3:10)
Ovie speed
3:50 evo + bane nest → straight into +1 melee (1- gas and 2-bases fully saturated)
4:20 2nd gas (when we start +1 melee)
Ovie morphs in corner so phenix doesn’t find it
Note that on Map 2 - Prion, Dark stops his econ here and hits a huge hatch-tech 35-drone speedling-baneling + queen drop timing which also looked very intimidating.
5:00 4th base + Lair (3-bases saturated and 2 gases)
As we oversaturate our minerals off that first 2 gases, we add the next 4 gases steadily
@Lair - infestation, 2nd evo and bane speed
@infestation build Hive + Spire immediately
Saturate 4th base then mass lingbane
Note:
No infestors
VS phenix: Go up to 7 queens AND, delay 2nd gas to afford spores, then take 2nd and 3rd gas @5:00
85 drones - fully saturated 4th base and a relatively fast 5th for gas/larva
Que up extra injects on our 4th base and 5th base
Go straight to broodlords, building corrupters when greater spire is 50%
This style might get "figured out" and not be completely viable as a mainstay ZvP strategy in a few months time, but for now it feels bloody powerful, and I have a feeling even if it goes out of fashion temporarily, it'll be back .
As always post any questions below and over the coming weeks I'll add a FAQ below here where I organise the useful discussion from the thread.
PiG, please stop making such detailed and well rounded posts and videos. This just makes me feel even worse about being bad at the game since I now have such content to help me!
(Just to clarify the tone on which this has to be read, I am fully sarcastic, except for the second half of the first sentence) I'll try this out, and may come back with some fuel for your FAQ!
What is interesting about this style is that it wouldn't work in previous editions of SC2 because of the Colossus. The Disruptor simply won't be effective versus a huge Ling/Bane army, especially with them being melee and the Disruptor doing friendly fire.
So with the Colossus not as good, it really allows this style for flourish. I do wonder where the meta will go.
On April 19 2016 15:07 BronzeKnee wrote: What is interesting about this style is that it wouldn't work in previous editions of SC2 because of the Colossus. The Disruptor simply won't be effective versus a huge Ling/Bane army, especially with them being melee and the Disruptor doing friendly fire.
So with the Colossus not as good, it really allows this style for flourish. I do wonder where the meta will go.
I didn't even think about that lol, I was more into the kind of resonning that sentry are not used enough because of the ravagers... Anyway, nice guide even if the two times I have tried it I was totally outplay.
20 3rd hatch Queen from natural Don’t pull off gas 25 ovie 28 queen 3rd queen from 3rd hatch (36 supply, 3:10)
Since you said in the video you don't advise this opening for anyone under GM, what is the opening you advise? Three hatch before pool? Or just getting two queens and the third immediately after?
Thank you for this great guide, but I think giving timings based on "timer" is confusing rather than helping. Every game can get a different direction right from the start and if a player won't understand why and how the build works, he will have a hard time playing it right and never think by himself.
I was testing the build a bit and found out the following:
~3:50(evolution chamber & bainling nest) - is when we have saturated our 2 bases and 1 gas - 16 - 16 - 3_DronesOnGas ~4:20(second gas) - is when we have started our +1 melee ~5:00 (Lair+taking 4 more gases) - is when we have saturated our 3 bases. 16 - 16 - 16 - 6_Drone_On_2_Gases
When Starting Hive, add a spire (if you have not added it yet), it will finish with the Hive ready and you can start the GreaterSpire.
So basically this build works on saturations and timings of the upgrades which line up with the "Timer". Better remember that the next time you are getting cannon rushed or Proxied and trying to come back to build's "Timer" after holding it off.
PiG hoping for your feedback please to know if I am on the right direction :D Thank you for you amazing contents, I love all your effort for SC2, keep up the fantastic work!
20 3rd hatch Queen from natural Don’t pull off gas 25 ovie 28 queen 3rd queen from 3rd hatch (36 supply, 3:10)
Since you said in the video you don't advise this opening for anyone under GM, what is the opening you advise? Three hatch before pool? Or just getting two queens and the third immediately after?
I think just hatch gas pool 32 3rd hatch I think is easier to manage especially if random early 2-gate adept pressure or something hits you. Requires much less of a balancing act vs crazy aggression. You can see Byul do it vs Patience (where he probably sees himself as the stronger player) here:
On April 26 2016 19:22 VeryMadMike wrote: Thank you for this great guide, but I think giving timings based on "timer" is confusing rather than helping. Every game can get a different direction right from the start and if a player won't understand why and how the build works, he will have a hard time playing it right and never think by himself.
I was testing the build a bit and found out the following:
~3:50(evolution chamber & bainling nest) - is when we have saturated our 2 bases and 1 gas - 16 - 16 - 3_DronesOnGas ~4:20(second gas) - is when we have started our +1 melee ~5:00 (Lair+taking 4 more gases) - is when we have saturated our 3 bases. 16 - 16 - 16 - 6_Drone_On_2_Gases
When Starting Hive, add a spire (if you have not added it yet), it will finish with the Hive ready and you can start the GreaterSpire.
So basically this build works on saturations and timings of the upgrades which line up with the "Timer". Better remember that the next time you are getting cannon rushed or Proxied and trying to come back to build's "Timer" after holding it off.
PiG hoping for your feedback please to know if I am on the right direction :D Thank you for you amazing contents, I love all your effort for SC2, keep up the fantastic work!
You're a beautiful human. I was too lazy to do this but I really should have. You're absolutely right, the best way to understand a build is based on where your drones are at. Editing into the OP, thanks mate!
On April 26 2016 19:44 LuckyGnomTV wrote: dimaga played this back in 2010, stephano played this back in 2011, wow what a new incredibly smart strategy! gawd~
The similarities between the old school bane rain styles and this are entirely superficial.
This style is, believe it or not...NOT anything like the old school bane rain style...the purpose of ling bane is primarily to carry you to (nearly) fastest possible brood lords off an incredible economy. You then transition into a hive tech game.
Second, the old school styles could not possibly have played like this considering you couldn't have drop done till like the 7+ minute mark (10 - 11 minutes on the old school clock). Zerg players in 2011 also waited until +2 melee finished to do bane drops. Here, you start dropping when +1 melee is about done (sync'd on finish).
In Dark's style, bane drops are used as a means of gaining a slight lead and keeping the Protoss focused on his own base (in the best scenario keeping his phoenixes on his side of the map) so that you can explode into a 5 base economy.
They don't even have to do damage (the worst case scenario). You're just keeping the Protoss from harassing you.
You don't place as much emphasis on ling upgrades (one evo until +1/+1), and also go up to 80+ drones (old school bane rain players would usually stay on a conservative 66 drones and pump out mass lings on lair tech (heading towards infestors, which we don't bother with until after our broodlord timing). Here, we drone up fast and use our fast hive to have adrenal glands done by the time the Protoss does his 10 minute timing. We'll have a lot of ling bane, but also a much better economy.
You don't even WANT to make banelings (besides the 4x in drops) with this style. You only make them the moment the Protoss moves out for a timing (which, conveniently, occurs in the period when your greater spire is not yet 50% done and you have an insane amount of gas built up). Otherwise, all your gas is banked for a massive broodlord push with ultras behind (once you wipe out the immortals ultras are pretty much GG).
And in the late game, your primary damage comes from adrenal lings, not banelings. They are only used as splash damage to wipe out zealot walls. I'd actually consider this style a midgame transition (yes...lol, midgame broodlords), considering that if the protoss doesn't push you can have them out at 9:30 - 10:00 minutes.
I think this style has a lot of potential to open into any kind of gameplan. You could easily transition into lurker ultra adrenal ling, pure ling ultra, mass muta, or any other sort of style off of this opener.
The point of the brood lords is not just a timing attack to try and end the game, but also an incredible force that compels Protoss to abandon his ideal composition, freeing up the board for mass ground (ling, ultra) floods.
I've been experimenting with other compositions with this style as the basis, there's a lot of potential for other plays here. As I said, I would consider this build a MID-GAME play, transitioning into a (very) comfortable late game.
Really interesting to hear that you find success with this. Watching Dark, I always thought that his moves are incredible and that he does more with this composition that should be possible and that he is miles ahead of everyone else in using it. If it's strong in the hands of people who are not Dark, this may signify a beginning of very interesting times.
On April 27 2016 05:50 opisska wrote: Really interesting to hear that you find success with this. Watching Dark, I always thought that his moves are incredible and that he does more with this composition that should be possible and that he is miles ahead of everyone else in using it. If it's strong in the hands of people who are not Dark, this may signify a beginning of very interesting times.
The hard part is to kill the PICA army with ling baneling. You need some nice baneling connections to stop the march of death.
On April 27 2016 05:50 opisska wrote: Really interesting to hear that you find success with this. Watching Dark, I always thought that his moves are incredible and that he does more with this composition that should be possible and that he is miles ahead of everyone else in using it. If it's strong in the hands of people who are not Dark, this may signify a beginning of very interesting times.
The hard part is to kill the PICA army with ling baneling. You need some nice baneling connections to stop the march of death.
Actually if Protoss commits to PICA it's super easy with this composition. Before they get more than a few archons you'll have broodlords out. That army only becomes super powerful once they get at least 6-7 archons.
In my experience the immortals just don't do enough vs ling-bane so any investment in them means any timing that can overpower lingbane hits too late. A lot of Protoss players have been trying to blindcounter me when I play this style by just opening 4-5 phenix and obsessively hunting overlords and then going straight to mass gateway + templar archives and just massing chargelot/archon or adept/archon and relying on splits + archon efficiency to bust through before broodlords. In this scenario I find just going hydra-lurker is great. Heck, even adding roaches would be great due to no archons. It's all a game of information in that case and how fast each side can change up their comp. These players get a nice surprise when I change up my style and their archon-chargelot just looks like shit without the immortals anchoring it down.
If I scout a TC Adept opening. At what point do you stop droning? I often play versus pure adept into phoenix into PICA on ladder and am a bit confused about the drone count.
The same goes for Warpprism Adept stye on Ruins of Endion off 2 bases
What upgrade do you get with the second evo? I was under the impression that carapace lings aren't worth the cost vs toss because so many of their units do such high damage to lings already.
If the Zealots have a damage upgrade they only need two attacks instead of three. So you get the Armor Upgrade to negate their Upgrade Advantage. The style doesn't really use ranged units anyways (besides Queens sometimes???)
^Yeah what Railgan said. It can make quite a nice difference in some situations.
Oh god just saw Railgans post:
On April 28 2016 18:02 Railgan wrote: If I scout a TC Adept opening. At what point do you stop droning? I often play versus pure adept into phoenix into PICA on ladder and am a bit confused about the drone count.
The same goes for Warpprism Adept stye on Ruins of Endion off 2 bases
I just saw this... over 2 months later haha sorry.
I think you need to keep scouting to make sure they don't go over 5 gates. If mass adept I think you need roaches.
Otherwise you just want to get a big wave of lings and 5 banes to pop by 4:40 when the fastest 7 glaive adept timing can hit
On April 28 2016 18:02 Railgan wrote: If I scout a TC Adept opening. At what point do you stop droning? I often play versus pure adept into phoenix into PICA on ladder and am a bit confused about the drone count.
The same goes for Warpprism Adept stye on Ruins of Endion off 2 bases
I just saw this... over 2 months later haha sorry.
I think you need to keep scouting to make sure they don't go over 5 gates. If mass adept I think you need roaches.
Otherwise you just want to get a big wave of lings and 5 banes to pop by 4:40 when the fastest 7 glaive adept timing can hit
I usually just retake gas at 3:30, get a fast bane nest and +1 melee. I keep ~4-8 Lings at home to morph into banes and have some lings harrassing him / spotting / denying his 3rd. As soon as he moves out -> Spam the lings. Works great
EPT
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