|
Hello, everyone.
Terran = Reaper, Liberator, Banshee, etc...
Protoss = Adept, Oracle, Phoenix, etc...
And us?
To lighten the question, everytime i play ZvT or ZvP, i feel uncomfortable with the harass, it's like a gnat mocking me, and takes me so much of my attention to deal with those shits, sometimes i go crazy.
I want to pay in the same coin, make them uncomfortable while macroing behind, like they do.
The problem is, at least for me, Zergs don't have any unit that can throw off your opponent in small counts (aka Liberators, Oracles, etc...), we need so much to throw the opponent off, which is pretty much an all-in.
I've tried mutalisks, i used to use them so much in HOTS, but in LOTV phoenix shut down them so hard, Terran just make a single tower or liberator and you #$#(*@.
What can i do? I'm i supposed to just defend everything they throw at me?
|
On February 04 2016 02:00 Alstreim wrote:
Hello, everyone.
Terran = Reaper, Liberator, Banshee, etc...
Protoss = Adept, Oracle, Phoenix, etc...
And us?
To lighten the question, everytime i play ZvT or ZvP, i feel uncomfortable with the harass, it's like a gnat mocking me, and takes me so much of my attention to deal with those shits, sometimes i go crazy.
I want to pay in the same coin, make them uncomfortable while macroing behind, like they do.
The problem is, at least for me, Zergs don't have any unit that can throw off your opponent in small counts (aka Liberators, Oracles, etc...), we need so much to throw the opponent off, which is pretty much an all-in.
I've tried mutalisks, i used to use them so much in HOTS, but in LOTV phoenix shut down them so hard, Terran just make a single tower or liberator and you #$#(*@.
What can i do? I'm i supposed to just defend everything they throw at me?
Zerg don't know how much all P and T build orders are all 90% "How do I not die to a surge of lings killing me"
|
On February 04 2016 04:04 Naracs_Duc wrote:
Zerg don't know how much all P and T build orders are all 90% "How do I not die to a surge of lings killing me"
As a terran - this is indeed very true. Sometimes a huge swell of lings can really catch you off guard, especially when you expect the normal "macro zerg" play.
Also, I've seen some pretty successful roach drops in some pro games lately, might give it a try.
|
Early game zerg has dominance over ground. P and T wall themselves defensively to avoid dying to swarms of lings, true.
This means that zerg naturally makes the opponent pay for thing he doesn't want to.
Do you change your build because protoss can produce a zealot on his gate? Nope.
Do you change your build because terran can make reapers ? Not very much (a little though).
Early game zerg has not way to be harass-y if he's not going for an allin. It's how the race works. You can go for zergling drops, but it's meh.
On the other side, terran is forced to harass to stay in the game, and protoss has a choice (macro up 3 bases with defensive configuration or be annoying with phenix).
By essence zerg is a reactive race where you have to deflect ennemy harassment while macroing as much as possible, so yeah I suppose you play the wrong race if you wanna harass like a terran.
|
I like to make around 16 lings or so, drop in his main as soon as my evo chamber pops. When his units go to fight them, I run the rest into his natural, meanwhile im droning at home. Its a great way to punish greedy terrans, a bit harder with toss because of moco though.
|
If you want to compare units straight to other races :
Oracle / banshee - mutalisk
Drop / Warprism - overlord drop
Adept / Hellion - speedling / roach
The tech time for mutalisks is very similar to stargate, just zerg requires making at least 4 to 6 for them to be effective so they usually prefer to get more economy first.
Sure, you might say the mutalisks is different to the banshee and phoenix - but at the same time, making mass phoenix or banshee wont win you the game.
Theres no designated harrasment unit for zerg, but at the same time, their defense tools (Queens and creep especially) offer them some significant advantages in defending.
|
Vs T : you have 3 ravagers opening, it deny reaper, and with your ovie you get vision of the ramp and you harass some supply/addon, bunker until tank is up, then just back, don't loose your ravager, and you can use them later to kill liberator (3 biles kill liberator).
Dropping zerglings vs T isn't very cost effective as T units are super effective vs lings (marines, reaper, hellion, tanks), and you need to all-in if you want to do dmg.
Vs P : Lings speed, let 1 drone to gaz, and make 1 evo when ling speed is about to finish, morph ovie with the little gaz you're mining, and drop lings (kill some drone + scout the tech).
Vs Z : usually you build baneling nest so you can drop banelings. Ofc course you can drop baneling vs P and T, but later on the game, else you have to comitt more.
It's cheaper to drop without ovie speed, and nearly as much effective on early game. Later you can still drop but you need ovie speed.
|
As a protoss player, it's really really really annoying when you build 2 extra hatcheries and a bunch of drones early game. That applies tons of pressure.
|
On February 04 2016 04:04 Naracs_Duc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2016 02:00 Alstreim wrote:
Hello, everyone.
Terran = Reaper, Liberator, Banshee, etc...
Protoss = Adept, Oracle, Phoenix, etc...
And us?
To lighten the question, everytime i play ZvT or ZvP, i feel uncomfortable with the harass, it's like a gnat mocking me, and takes me so much of my attention to deal with those shits, sometimes i go crazy.
I want to pay in the same coin, make them uncomfortable while macroing behind, like they do.
The problem is, at least for me, Zergs don't have any unit that can throw off your opponent in small counts (aka Liberators, Oracles, etc...), we need so much to throw the opponent off, which is pretty much an all-in.
I've tried mutalisks, i used to use them so much in HOTS, but in LOTV phoenix shut down them so hard, Terran just make a single tower or liberator and you #$#(*@.
What can i do? I'm i supposed to just defend everything they throw at me?
Zerg don't know how much all P and T build orders are all 90% "How do I not die to a surge of lings killing me"
This cannot be more true. Whenever I see my opponent not wall properly, I drop whatever I had in mind, mass speedlings while denying scouting, and kekekeke.
|
On February 04 2016 07:00 EsX_Raptor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2016 04:04 Naracs_Duc wrote:On February 04 2016 02:00 Alstreim wrote:
Hello, everyone.
Terran = Reaper, Liberator, Banshee, etc...
Protoss = Adept, Oracle, Phoenix, etc...
And us?
To lighten the question, everytime i play ZvT or ZvP, i feel uncomfortable with the harass, it's like a gnat mocking me, and takes me so much of my attention to deal with those shits, sometimes i go crazy.
I want to pay in the same coin, make them uncomfortable while macroing behind, like they do.
The problem is, at least for me, Zergs don't have any unit that can throw off your opponent in small counts (aka Liberators, Oracles, etc...), we need so much to throw the opponent off, which is pretty much an all-in.
I've tried mutalisks, i used to use them so much in HOTS, but in LOTV phoenix shut down them so hard, Terran just make a single tower or liberator and you #$#(*@.
What can i do? I'm i supposed to just defend everything they throw at me?
Zerg don't know how much all P and T build orders are all 90% "How do I not die to a surge of lings killing me" This cannot be more true. Whenever I see my opponent not wall properly, I drop whatever I had in mind, mass speedlings while denying scouting, and kekekeke.
In fairness to the OP, the opponent being "naturally scared" of something is not the same as the zerg player durdling with a unit in front of the opponent.
|
Ovie drops. You can use them as an all in,harass,with banes,roaches,lings ect. And a lot of players still do not expect them.
|
Baneling drops, burrowing roaches into mineral lines, ling runbys when the opponent is distracted, ravager rush (particularly strong and cheesy, esp vs terran -> kill depots).
Even proxy hatchery.
Get creative! But be prepared to lose when it fails.
|
Even map veto's are like "Which maps can I not win against zerg on",
T and P builds have to be precise to the building placement when dealing with zerg because of all their early game cheeses and attacks.
|
Thanks to the replies, everyone.
I think i will try something out of the natural (aka be creative), i used to use ling runbys a lot in hots, but know most Terran player are well aware and bunker-wall and protoss have "OP" Pylon. Maybe i will veto "Orbital Shipyard" and "Dusk Towers", since both maps have inside main-base natural, all-in in those maps is more difficult to apply. I really like to use "Burrow", i will try some plays with "Nydus" too.
|
People here already covered the most common points so I'll just add this, next time you go 17hatch 17 gas 17 pool, when the pool pop, instead of making two or four lings make 8-10 and just go be annoying, you would be surprised just how much damage a few unexpected lings can do to an unprepared player.
You need to keep up the macro behind it and not throw those lings away without any damage or you will fall behind, but I've gotten a few free wins this way against players who opened just that little bit too greedy.
And it's great multitask training.
|
On February 04 2016 07:33 ThorPool wrote:
Ovie drops. You can use them as an all in,harass,with banes,roaches,lings ect. And a lot of players still do not expect them.
100% agree. Ovie speed is super fast to research too. Just rally your first few ovies near enemy's base. This works so well in 2v2/3v3 also. You can easily transition to bling drops, and mutas, and also double expand while harassing.
|
Zerg doesn't have any good macro harassing options at the early game. But we have many quasi-all-ins.
Against Protoss (on 2 player maps) I like to go for a hatch first but build no drones at my natural. Deny scouting for a while then put the evo down for two-pronged ling drops.
Against Terran I've been trying a similar roach-ravager rush, but I don't have the correct build timing yet.
|
On February 04 2016 20:12 IcemanAsi wrote:
People here already covered the most common points so I'll just add this, next time you go 17hatch 17 gas 17 pool, when the pool pop, instead of making two or four lings make 8-10 and just go be annoying, you would be surprised just how much damage a few unexpected lings can do to an unprepared player.
You need to keep up the macro behind it and not throw those lings away without any damage or you will fall behind, but I've gotten a few free wins this way against players who opened just that little bit too greedy.
And it's great multitask training.
Its also something that forces them to be honest.
So lets say you push into their nat and they turn on their Pylons. You retreat, replace the 1-4 lings you lost, then dance around the front of their base a bit. Poke them and force units, force pylon use, make them feel like they need to be a few percentage points safer.
This type of play is not *as* damaging as a mineral line drop--but it is very effective at disrupting timings, scout patterns, and a lot of people will "over-defend" themselves.
|
On February 04 2016 04:04 Naracs_Duc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2016 02:00 Alstreim wrote:
Hello, everyone.
Terran = Reaper, Liberator, Banshee, etc...
Protoss = Adept, Oracle, Phoenix, etc...
And us?
To lighten the question, everytime i play ZvT or ZvP, i feel uncomfortable with the harass, it's like a gnat mocking me, and takes me so much of my attention to deal with those shits, sometimes i go crazy.
I want to pay in the same coin, make them uncomfortable while macroing behind, like they do.
The problem is, at least for me, Zergs don't have any unit that can throw off your opponent in small counts (aka Liberators, Oracles, etc...), we need so much to throw the opponent off, which is pretty much an all-in.
I've tried mutalisks, i used to use them so much in HOTS, but in LOTV phoenix shut down them so hard, Terran just make a single tower or liberator and you #$#(*@.
What can i do? I'm i supposed to just defend everything they throw at me?
Zerg don't know how much all P and T build orders are all 90% "How do I not die to a surge of lings killing me"
QFT.
So many Zergs complain that they can't harass P and T early but the answer to your question is "just being Zerg" forces us to react to you in ways that severely limit what we can and can't do.
Now that mass Photon Overcharge is gone, you can attack with anything you want as soon as P tries to take his 3rd. If it's greedy you'll kill it. If it's not greedy then you just keep expanding and doing your thing.
If you want to play harass and be in their face all game long pick Terran. It's just how the game works.
A lot of Zerg seem to think because they can't harass like the other races they're behind but actually you have everyone on a timer. Survive the harass, trade efficiently, and keep expanding and eventually you can win with just numbers.
|
On larger maps against P, I open 12 pool a lot. A good number of Protoss players like to open nexus first (Ruins of Serras might be the best example) and, if microed correctly, just 8 lings can really mess up your opponent's build. Of course at first, you will over micro your lings and float a bunch of mineral or forget to inject, but once you get use to do both ling micro and basic early game zerg macro, you can be ahead after this opening even if the toss had a better build order.
|
On February 05 2016 04:00 Awin591 wrote:
On larger maps against P, I open 12 pool a lot. A good number of Protoss players like to open nexus first (Ruins of Serras might be the best example) and, if microed correctly, just 8 lings can really mess up your opponent's build. Of course at first, you will over micro your lings and float a bunch of mineral or forget to inject, but once you get use to do both ling micro and basic early game zerg macro, you can be ahead after this opening even if the toss had a better build order.
Even better if they scout your pool, and you delay lings to drone up a bit more and grab a faster 3rd as they rush to an earlier mothership core to help defend his base--possibly even building an extra pylon in his main to better cover himself.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
