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On December 21 2015 22:10 A_Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2015 15:41 PiGStarcraft wrote:On December 21 2015 11:36 A_Scarecrow wrote:
ive been trying this build and ive struggled with bio tank pushes. any advice it hits before mutas are out. Lingbane should rekt it if we've macro'd well enough. However there are a few problem maps/spawns where you might want to counter super hard as they reach the edge of your creep - Ulrena, vertical Seras cliff push etc all have really hard to engage areas especially without mutas/corruptors out yet. Generally just make sure you focus on lings (banes not as important vs tanks) and try to pre-spread and flank. Also having good creep spread will be very beneficial. If it's a fast 2-base heavy committment and you didn't realise and are up at 70 drones, you need to try and work on scouting I think. . yeah scouting is okish i do okay in that department but the spawns like your said have been really killer especially on ulrena i go roach ravager on that map and still have 50/50 chance on winning. ill work in it! i really want to get to gm but sometimes i feel so far from it cause of zvt being below 50%.
Yeah if you play roach ravager in those spots play it 55 drone-style where you go 6-gas but only half saturate your 3rd mineral line, look to deny terran 3rd and reduce tank count whenever possible. Super all-in/timing-based but amazing for crushing an aggressive player and pretty good at busting a defensive one!
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Thanks pig, this has helped my zvt a lot.
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When should I stop droning (temporarily) to make units when playing vs 2-base and vs 3-base Terran (I'm assuming I still want to reach 80-88 Drones on 4 bases)? I remember in the last PiG 1-gas guide in HoTS Terrans would hit at like 8:30 off 2 bases and 10:30-11:00 on 3.
Also when are the normal times that I should expect to see Natural and 3rd being placed?
Thanks for the great write up I really rely on guides like these.
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On January 11 2016 17:44 Hungry101 wrote:When should I stop droning (temporarily) to make units when playing vs 2-base and vs 3-base Terran (I'm assuming I still want to reach 80-88 Drones on 4 bases)? I remember in the last PiG 1-gas guide in HoTS Terrans would hit at like 8:30 off 2 bases and 10:30-11:00 on 3. Also when are the normal times that I should expect to see Natural and 3rd being placed? Thanks for the great write up I really rely on guides like these.
It really depends on the attack. Normally I just base my response around where to stop my own economy. So vs fast 2-base attacks an absolute max of 60 drones, 4-gas is normally where I'm start pumping units.
I'm still pretty rough on game timer for most of these but here's some general ones:
Hellbat timing: 4:40.
2-base 3-rax 2xmedivac + stim attack (no early factory for helions) = ~5:30 double drop
2-base 3-rax 2xmedivac + stim attack (with helions = ~6:15 double drop
^fast 2-base marine-tank timings have similar timings.
vs 3-base you can sometimes drone ~8 drones on your 4th before the fighting starts but generally mass units off 3-base so you can crush any pressure and have uninterrupted creep spread, then once you slap down a pressure (or have a good ball of units and feel safe) add drones on that 4th base.
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Thank you, that really helps. I'm a big fan!
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Hello PiG, first thanks for the guide.
You said in one of the comments that's completely viable to go with Roach/Ravager into Ultra/Infestor if this is the preference of the player. If i choose to go with this style:
1) You still make a spire?
2) Which upgrades i choose? Melee or Ranged alongside with carapace?
Thanks
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How about upgrades? I don't think you mentioned them in the BO?
Edit: Ah I see now your gas spending order, I understand.
Btw, do you count on mass queens holding early hellbats instead of banes?
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On January 16 2016 09:15 Alstreim wrote:
Hello PiG, first thanks for the guide.
You said in one of the comments that's completely viable to go with Roach/Ravager into Ultra/Infestor if this is the preference of the player. If i choose to go with this style:
1) You still make a spire?
2) Which upgrades i choose? Melee or Ranged alongside with carapace?
Thanks
I wouldn't follow this guide at all for that style, but it is completely viable and I alternate between roach-ravager and ling-bane muta all the time. No spire until broodlord time for me, though many koreans like going corruptors. Ranged upgrades until +2 or +3 ranged based on preference. I usually cut +3 ranged and go straight for melee but it depends how the games going. If we're still going to be stuck on roach-ravager as the core of our army for a while we'll just stay on ranged until +3 is done then start melee. Ultras are great as long as they have the carapace upgrades to tank.
On January 17 2016 01:35 straycat wrote:
How about upgrades? I don't think you mentioned them in the BO?
Edit: Ah I see now your gas spending order, I understand.
Btw, do you count on mass queens holding early hellbats instead of banes?
Yeah don't stress on upgrades/tech. It's all about getting up 4-base, 5-hatch and saturating your 3-bases ASAP before pumping units. If there's lots of pressure evos/lair/bane nest are all hugely delayed. The great thing about this build is it crushes hellbat timings if you do the build right and save transfuse energy after 2-3 tumors. You don't even need to see them coming and that's part of what makes this so solid.
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Thanks for the guide, I'll be trying this style out! Been struggling hard vs T lately. Also, the lack of transfuse on your ultra wounded my soul, 2-3 ultras in the deep red and full energy on queens just chilling :x
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On January 20 2016 06:18 Amazonic wrote:
Thanks for the guide, I'll be trying this style out! Been struggling hard vs T lately. Also, the lack of transfuse on your ultra wounded my soul, 2-3 ultras in the deep red and full energy on queens just chilling :x
Haha we all make stupid mistakes sometimes  .
Yeah this style is super sick. Still using the exact same build and regularly beating top 100/top 50 KR GMs with it.
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Thanks for the guide PiG! I may catch up on it, when I see my own build not really working anymore.
I can just imagine that I would have some problems against liberator harass with just queens/spores. I find it easy just to blind counter it with 3-4 ravagers just in time. I play roach ravager with 1-1 and going then 1-2 melee for ultras and broods, while occasionally making infestors. it's quite a passive style, so I may try a more action packed way, like you do.
you kinda made me want to write my own guide too. But I'm just dia, so not really a great educational cause. :D
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Dealing with liberators with this style isn't too hard unless it's the upgraded range version, where the best response is probably to rush spire.
edit: I'm still having some issues defending hellbat pushes with queens + spine, a lot of the time I end up having 4-5 queens at the front when they attack and not enough energy to transfuse a lot. They also tend to kill the queens first rather than the spine. In terms of playing a tiny bit safer, should I put down two spines instead of one or make some other adjustment until I feel like I can hold it reliably?
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Yeah I found hellbat pushes to be pretty much undefendable with this build, queens and spine is just not enough, zerglings are useless so I guess a few banes is way to go, unfortunately you can not achieve that with this build since it's brutally gasless for that
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On February 04 2016 23:08 Juny1spion wrote:
Yeah I found hellbat pushes to be pretty much undefendable with this build, queens and spine is just not enough, zerglings are useless so I guess a few banes is way to go, unfortunately you can not achieve that with this build since it's brutally gasless for that
I hold hellbat pushes on a daily basis with this build. Make sure you stop at 2 creep tumors to save energy for transfuse! Pull down all your queens from the other bases if its heavily committed and flank with lings to come in from behind/engage when he spreads out! As you micro your queens back in a concave the hellbats are forced to spread out or waste their time chasing a single queen. If they spread out your lings can engage efficently
Gl hf yo!
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Hey Pig, I've been using this build and I'm ahving trouble with two things in general
One thing is, when I play ZvT and try this build, it's good for defending hellbat pushes up to 5:00 with the queens, but I feel like there's a weak phase between 5:00 and 6:30 where you are droning/teching up and very vurnable to marines, because queens do not engage vs marines effectively (at least I think so). So I have huge problems when enemy pushes me with MM around this time.
The other thing is (with zerg in general), I feel really uncomfortable with scouting before olspeed+overseer. OL scouts get denied so easily, zerglings that run up the ramp don't spot everything since they usually hide their army behind. Since this build is pretty defensive it feels very important to scout but I'm not sure what to do if the scout doesn't work out.
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PiGStarcraft will give you a better response than mine, but i can tell you how i do for that (not that i'm only top diamond) :
I always drone scout (with my 13th ou 14th, depends of the map). So i don't need to keep my 2nd overlord on my natural. I send my first two overlord around the terran base and i double suicide overlords at 3:30. The terran can't deny both and most of the time you can save one overlord and you seen all you have to see.
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this is an impressive guide Jared, cant wait to test it on the ladder
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On January 25 2016 01:09 Maxie wrote:
Dealing with liberators with this style isn't too hard unless it's the upgraded range version, where the best response is probably to rush spire.
edit: I'm still having some issues defending hellbat pushes with queens + spine, a lot of the time I end up having 4-5 queens at the front when they attack and not enough energy to transfuse a lot. They also tend to kill the queens first rather than the spine. In terms of playing a tiny bit safer, should I put down two spines instead of one or make some other adjustment until I feel like I can hold it reliably?
As in the above post make sure you spread your queens back individually (not using the whole hotkey) and save energy after 2 or at most 3 creep tumors so you have transfuses kicking in just in time!
On February 13 2016 21:31 Xcrypt1991 wrote:
Hey Pig, I've been using this build and I'm ahving trouble with two things in general
One thing is, when I play ZvT and try this build, it's good for defending hellbat pushes up to 5:00 with the queens, but I feel like there's a weak phase between 5:00 and 6:30 where you are droning/teching up and very vurnable to marines, because queens do not engage vs marines effectively (at least I think so). So I have huge problems when enemy pushes me with MM around this time.
The other thing is (with zerg in general), I feel really uncomfortable with scouting before olspeed+overseer. OL scouts get denied so easily, zerglings that run up the ramp don't spot everything since they usually hide their army behind. Since this build is pretty defensive it feels very important to scout but I'm not sure what to do if the scout doesn't work out.
Re: Marines - if they went helions earlier they shouldn't be able to have too many marines at this point in the game. Queens + spine does pretty decently when paired with popping out lots of lings. If it's a 2-base all-in and you've droned right up to 66-drones with no idea until it hits - this is nothing to do with the build - just us not reacting/scouting/playing it safe.
If you can't scout because they deny it ensure you are poking with lings you can at least see if the factory is on the reactor which is important - if not they could be going tanks or something else, and they are definitely continuing marine production with the front rax which is a sign of aggression. Otherwise that barracks is building addons in a regular macro build.
If you're completely blind and wish to be super safe a good adjustment would be to change your build by going:
Lair first 100 gas after ling speed
5:00 bane nest + evo chamber --> +1 carapace
Only add 2-gases @3-base saturation
Pump lings.
This way you stop droning quite a bit earlier, get fast lair for detection and bane speed. You only invest in 1 upgrade at a time at first (and its the most important upgrade vs tank pushes). You should be able to stop anything with this and still have a decent economy behind it.
Alternately you could squeeze in a fast ovie speed but there'd need to be some complex build adjustments to make sure you're still safe vs hellbats etc so I can't give more info on that.
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Hi PiG, I have a question regarding overlord speed and gas timings.
I’ve noticed some Korean pros did research ovie speed a lot in ZvT during last GSL, so I thought that if it’s good for them, it’s even better for me as a poor diamond player trying to climb the ladder and be as safe as possible vs weird tech timings from Terran. So far, so good, but I feel it does not scales that well with your BO (which I love and use) as it messes up with early min econ. Righ now, I’m not putting away drones from gas and just follow up ling speed by ovie speed, is that the way to go or should I delay my further tech by putting off gas for a longer period of time? Or should I just drop it?
Thanks!
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Hey PiG, first off thanks for all the incredible knowledge you give to the community.
Second off, what do you think is the appropriate response to the Maru 5:00 minute double drop? I don't want to cry out OP because I know it's a 2 base attack that the Terran has to cut economy for but it feels like it always does fantastic damage, even when I know it's coming.
This is because the architecture of most maps lend themselves well to this, the Terran player will avoid a Spore Crawler or two that you placed for sfety (making me question the usefulness of even wasting the drones to build them) and they will drop the Marines right behind the mineral line. Should you just open with more Queens and lots of lings of of a 2 base economy and skip droning the third entirely? Then I feel like I'm behind the Terran (who also is on a 2 base economy but he has MULES).
Just curious as to what your thoughts were on this.
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EPT
