EPThttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/519983-zvt-3-roach-opener-2017-version
The LotV Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 55
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bulya
Israel386 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/519983-zvt-3-roach-opener-2017-version | ||
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bsvv
5 Posts
i get always dropped by Terran and have no clue how to deal with it.. How do you think about sporecrawler to defend against Medivac drops? bsvv | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
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bulya
Israel386 Posts
On September 05 2017 00:40 bsvv wrote: Hey, i get always dropped by Terran and have no clue how to deal with it.. How do you think about sporecrawler to defend against Medivac drops? bsvv At what stages are you dropped? What are your game plan? I'm making a lot of queens and playing quite defensively at the start. I have 2 squads of units to defend, ling bane on one hotkey and queen ling on another. At the beginning its either 2 medivacs at the same location so I'm sending both squads to deal with it, and if the 2 medivacs are split (one goes one base the other goes another) then 1 squad defends one place the other defends another one. Later into the game I'll have hydra ling bane that will be active on the map so that he does not have the apm and the units to both drop me and fight the hydra ling bane, and if a single medivac or 2 comes I have 10 queens and some lings to deal with it (from that point on this is the drop defense hotkey). It requires good map control. Having lings on the watch towers, spotter lings at random locations and ovies at the dead space so that I have warning when medivacs come (creep is good too, and I use it as well, but its not enough on its own). Usually if I have the map control the drops don't do anything to me. What is your game plan? Which units do you like to use in the match up. You can defend with anything, but it must be either fast or split among the bases. And the more defensive you play map awareness is key. | ||
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bulya
Israel386 Posts
On September 06 2017 01:38 Decendos wrote: How to beat mass air now that already bad Z AA got nerfed to hell? Anybody figured something out yet? I cant even think of a way and i srsly dont know what is the intention of buffing mass a-move airplay like carriers even more? What kind of mass air are you talking about? Mutas? Carriers? Ravens? | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On September 06 2017 04:20 bulya wrote: At what stages are you dropped? What are your game plan? I'm making a lot of queens and playing quite defensively at the start. I have 2 squads of units to defend, ling bane on one hotkey and queen ling on another. At the beginning its either 2 medivacs at the same location so I'm sending both squads to deal with it, and if the 2 medivacs are split (one goes one base the other goes another) then 1 squad defends one place the other defends another one. Later into the game I'll have hydra ling bane that will be active on the map so that he does not have the apm and the units to both drop me and fight the hydra ling bane, and if a single medivac or 2 comes I have 10 queens and some lings to deal with it (from that point on this is the drop defense hotkey). It requires good map control. Having lings on the watch towers, spotter lings at random locations and ovies at the dead space so that I have warning when medivacs come (creep is good too, and I use it as well, but its not enough on its own). Usually if I have the map control the drops don't do anything to me. What is your game plan? Which units do you like to use in the match up. You can defend with anything, but it must be either fast or split among the bases. And the more defensive you play map awareness is key. another big thing is understanding map layout. on most maps there will be a cliff between two of your first 3-4 bases that makes it very easy for terran to move back and forth with medivacs in the early game while you try to split your lings. you have to use your experience to understand how to split your army. it's very difficult sometimes because marines are so much more efficient than lings in small numbers, so you have to be microing both groups, using hatching eggs to rally and reinforce when you don't have enough lings, etc. many high level zergs produce a very large amount of defensive queens to help deal with drops. after putting down a few creep tumors you can keep queens in your main base / near dangerous cliffs to target down medivacs as they come in. spreading creep inside your main base also makes this defense stronger. target medivacs with queens whenever you can - terran has to micro properly to avoid losing medivacs because of large AA range of queens. queens are also quite tanky, so even if you lose them they will usually buy time for reinforcements to hatch and clean up drops if you're having trouble dealing with early game drops it's also important to scout when terran is opening 2 rax stim, which hits a strong 2 medivac 16 marine timing. against this opener you can cut drones earlier to add more queens, single evo chamber with +1 carapace, mass lings, etc. as for spore crawlers, unless terran is dropping widow mines or using banshees/liberators i find it's best to only make 1 spore crawler near a cliff that separates 2 bases and then have your queens near the spore, or no spores at all, unless the map layout has something like a pocket base (like on Acolyte) where you can spam 2-3 spores and make a base very strong against drops due to small ground space. generally it should be possible to defend drops without spores. if you are dealing with lategame drops in a macro game then often you can afford to make a few spores near cliffs and mineral lines, and sometimes they can pick off medivacs if terran sends 1 medivac toward a base and doesn't micro it, but spores often aren't the best defense | ||
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Majick
416 Posts
I don't seem to understand when is the right time to tech as Zerg. | ||
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bulya
Israel386 Posts
In ZvT I start my lair at about 5 min.In ZvP I can get it way earlier if I know for sure it will be DTs into archon, which can save me a few spores, but otherwise I'll get it around 4:30 unless there is a 2 base all-in coming. ZvZ is a very volotile match up, which may end on hatch tech. Ling bane as well as roach pushes (or roach bane) can be done all on hatch tech, and teching too soon will result in either a way smaller eco then the other guy or dying to the early aggression. So its quite about the time the game stabilizes and both sides don't try breaking the other's defense. There are tech builds in ZvZ which get the Lair early, but you must wall off and you'll be behind in eco, which can be compensated by better tech, though once you get the tech you must be the aggressor. as otherwise he'll catch up in tech while being on a better eco.. In ZvT there are Hive rushes in order to get ultras or brood lords. I used to play like this and was getting my Hive after +2 +2 started, but there are many other ways to play the match up, so if you are going hydras, mutas, corruptors, or may be a roach ravager infestor player then the Hive comes later. In ZvP many game plans aim to end the game on lair tech (hydra ling bane or hydra lurker ling), while other rely on getting brood lords before there is a good answer from the protoss. It makes very different Hive timings. In ZvZ you get a hive only if the game goes into a long macro game. Some get it only for +3 and a few vipers. In short, Hive depends heavily on your game plan. Many game plans don't require a hive. | ||
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Majick
416 Posts
On October 03 2017 07:01 bulya wrote: Lair and Hive timings depend on the match up as well as your game plan. In ZvT I start my lair at about 5 min.In ZvP I can get it way earlier if I know for sure it will be DTs into archon, which can save me a few spores, but otherwise I'll get it around 4:30 unless there is a 2 base all-in coming. ZvZ is a very volotile match up, which may end on hatch tech. Ling bane as well as roach pushes (or roach bane) can be done all on hatch tech, and teching too soon will result in either a way smaller eco then the other guy or dying to the early aggression. So its quite about the time the game stabilizes and both sides don't try breaking the other's defense. There are tech builds in ZvZ which get the Lair early, but you must wall off and you'll be behind in eco, which can be compensated by better tech, though once you get the tech you must be the aggressor. as otherwise he'll catch up in tech while being on a better eco.. In ZvT there are Hive rushes in order to get ultras or brood lords. I used to play like this and was getting my Hive after +2 +2 started, but there are many other ways to play the match up, so if you are going hydras, mutas, corruptors, or may be a roach ravager infestor player then the Hive comes later. In ZvP many game plans aim to end the game on lair tech (hydra ling bane or hydra lurker ling), while other rely on getting brood lords before there is a good answer from the protoss. It makes very different Hive timings. In ZvZ you get a hive only if the game goes into a long macro game. Some get it only for +3 and a few vipers. In short, Hive depends heavily on your game plan. Many game plans don't require a hive. Thanks, that is really helpful. | ||
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AllHailLulu
16 Posts
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IcemanAsi
Israel681 Posts
On October 10 2017 06:27 AllHailLulu wrote: Guys, need your help -) Can u write down here all timings for building third base in zvz, zvt and zvp. For examle 3 hatch in zvp, 17 hatch 26limit hatch in zvt, 31hatch in zvz, 32hatch in zvp etc. Can not understand which build is the most economical in any match up, and which build is the most safe in these matchups. And even more in which builds do u make ovie speed in zvt, zvp -) Thank u very much !!! http://lotv.spawningtool.com/build/zvx/ | ||
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AbouSV
Germany1278 Posts
I've tried many comps, head-on or as an adaptation of the Protoss comp, none is working. I don't know how to improve any of my engagements either. I can double front with Roach Hydra and many locust on a third front, and I still get shredded for minimal lost and actions from the Protoss :/ So I've tried: -Ling bane Hydra -Pure roach on 3 bases -Any variation of Roach-Hydra-SH -Fast ultra-brood 3/3 Also, I don't get what the aim with ling bane hydra, what are banes supposed to do? Any advice would be welcome! | ||
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ArtyK
France3143 Posts
If he seems to be on the offense always delay him as much as possible before engaging, always fight on creep and always setup as big of a flank as possible. Once he has storm getting surrounds is even more important to possibly catch the HTs off guard with the banes. At least worst case scenario he can't storm everything with only a couple of them. Your priority will still be selecting forward banes and focusing the templars. This is all based on knowing his positioning so you might want to work on keeping map control if you're not already used to having all xel nagas + every other possible paths covered with creep/spotting overlords or lings. Because his army his higher in value but you max out faster you want to be on his side of the map even if you don't commit to an attack, as it puts him under pressure and delay his possible timing. If you can kill him outright then great. Other advantage of this is you can threaten a base trade that you start ahead, if he does actually move out. Prioritize melee upgrades as you one shot probes with +2 banes. When you start being agressive you can for example attack with your army while bane dropping or doing runbys in other mineral lines. Neuro often talks about the 70/30 split, where he sends 70% of his army in one place and 30% somewhere else. This can force bigger mistakes and it once again abuses the fact that your army is weaker but remaxes faster. If you can do big economical damage or kill important tech units, he shouldn't have time to counter attack before you're back to a healthy supply count, + he has to push on creep and that's scary :> Your lategame goal is broodlords vs archon chargelot immortal, so once you feel safe put down the infestation pit > hive + spire at the same time > greater spire. I try to target HTs with the BLs too if i get a good position. Sometimes you can snipe some of them before you even engage. I'm aware mass oracle is a thing now but you still need banes in case he (most likely) makes zealots or adepts to support them. You need to keep tabs on his army often to not overmake ling/bane, otherwise you might be short on hydras and lose to the oracles which is game over. Then you either need to hit a timing attack which is tough, or sit behind spores and get infestors. Then a few ultras. I've seen Dark go spire instead to get a dozen of corruptors which seemed to work pretty well, as 100% of the toss army doesn't shoot air. Then a few ultras ofc :> | ||
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bulya
Israel386 Posts
There are many compositions that can work vs Protoss, but unless he goes for a low tech composition (say only gateway units), you want to come, snipe something, and disengage. If you see he is ready then don't even engage him. And attacking at several places at once is important. If you go for melee upgrades then having ling bane flocks that hit one area while your main army is fishing for a fight in another location is good (if its range then a splitting a roach hydra force into 2 parts is necessary, or even dropping at one location while fishing for a fight in another location). I beat Protoss players several times simply by sneaking a ling flock into several of their mineral lines while feinting an attack somewhere else. Usually a Protoss will have the stronger but not that mobile army which is hard to rebuild, while you can remax easily and have the mobile army. With these scenarios its about forcing fights where he doesn't want to fight and never engaging him front on. If he does come with a push you can either basetrade or you can prepare a very good surround, which will make his army not that efficient. Sniping his key units there and remaxing puts you in a good spot. But you only do that if he lets you fight on your terms (a good surround, and preferably on creep). If you get to brood lords you can push his ground army out of there (and if there are no immortals, then Ultras are good as well). But first of all you should take advantage in the mid game of the fact that a protoss will have a hard time defending 4 bases at once. So you engage where you can and if he is ready you fish for some other places. Skytoss is bit of a different story,but similar ideas. You want to fight him head on only if its upon spores an infestors, while you have the more mobile army and can force baserades as well as take more expansions then him. | ||
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AbouSV
Germany1278 Posts
A follow up question: Most of the time, I have hard time doing any (cost efficient) damage on a protoss on 2-4 bases. A typical configuration is : the first two bases are protected by a wall (sometime even three), and the army is on the third and the momo core on the fourth (or vice-versa). Including the warp-in I usually lose more than I kill. What would you recommand? | ||
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bulya
Israel386 Posts
Always try being ahead of him by eco and expansions. (at least one expansion ahead of him) If all his army is in one place you can try dropping him. A wall isn't that scary if you can come there and take it down. If all his army was in one place he'll have to go and defend it. If he splits correctly he'll have the numbers, but if he doesn't you can do damage at one place or the other. He doesn't know where is your main army and where is the hitting squad, so splitting correctly is hard and if he does split correctly you can disengage. At some point in the game a wall will be open, and if you can sneak some army there while its open you can do a lot of damage with not that many units. An MSC isn't that scary once he is on 4 bases, since your army can simply take down the MSC or the pylons (can be both), or if you are going for the probes simply move command the banes there and it will do the job. Check out your replays and see when is the point in the game where his wall is open, and when can you drop him where his army isn't. Attacking at one place and then pushing into another is one of the way to pull a Protoss player apart. If you want more specific advises you'd rather post some replays. | ||
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AbouSV
Germany1278 Posts
Protosses are more and more aggressive with their expands, and tend to expend as fast, if not faster, than the Zerg, while 'harassing' with adepts for instance. So does the +1 base still stands in those conditions? If it does, what are the keys to achieving it? | ||
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bulya
Israel386 Posts
Regarding the 3rd having a pack of lings there messing with the third and hold positioning in the rally point for the main and the natural so that probes can't get freely there is something pros do. If you are still on Lair tech you prefer having an extra base against protoss. A push at 8:00 can work if they take an early forth simply because a protoss must decide what does he spend the minerals on. It can be either extra gateways or a few pylons and a forth. In the later version he won't have that much army defending and he won't be able to warp that many gateway units on your side of the map. So his defenders advantage won't be that huge and you don't have to worry about chargelot runbies. So preparing such a push which is designed to cancel the forth and will leave the protoss without a 4th and without the gateways he'll usually make with those minerals puts the protoss at a position that his game plan was ruined. I'm not a ZvP master, so may be ArtyK is the better person to answer you that as he plays both races on a high level. (I only play zerg on a high level) | ||
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AbouSV
Germany1278 Posts
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ArtyK
France3143 Posts
In lotv it's standard to take your third before 5 minutes in PvZ, and it's not uncommon to see it as early as 3.30. Obviously, zergs can never take a 4th that early... Injects only produce 3 larvaes instead of 4 in wol/hots, so the timing of the 4th is around 6 minutes. Why? Because unless you're getting allined, you should have reached full mineral saturation on all 3 bases by that point and you will simply not have enough larvaes to be able to spend all your minerals. We also use less roaches and more lings than in the past, which means that a 4th alone is generally not even enough for production. What i do is always get a 4th and macro hatch at the same time unless i'm under pressure, in which case i only make the macro hatch until i'm safe. With more experience you'll be able to tell when you can take your 4th even earlier like 5.30, or later... Use common sense, if you don't have extra money to build the hatches at 6 minutes, don't leave 10 larvaes idle while you spend your minerals on those buildings just to hit the timing right :p | ||
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