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On November 18 2015 03:16 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 00:26 FreeZEternal wrote:
I've seen MC games on twitch and he goes for high templars in PvT. Basically uses the robo for prism, obs and immortals. Main AOE is HT. In pvt, he tries to end it before disruptors with non stop harassment of warp prism lol. YEAAAAAAAAAAAAHH. chargelot templar play viable again. sc2 is alive and DK a god!!! FUUCKK YEAAHHH!
chargelot templar - no still not viable, zealot mine interaction has not changed. But maybe adept templar - but i guess that is what you meant.
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Games been out 7 days and people like dinomight are already begging for protoss buffs. Sounds like this expansion could use more of what basically ruined the previous ones, mass collosus. Apparently storm got nerfed too? Its about time that a-move AOE units got nerfed. People acting like spellcasting micro is so much harder than trying to micro and kite with a stimmed bio ball while trying to snipe/emp while trying to deal with zealot warpins at home with units that need to be queued ahead of time and microd against chargelots. Yeah, I am not buying it actually. It finally feels like protoss has to micro as much as the other 2 races have since the beginning.
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On November 18 2015 04:10 HugoBallzak wrote:
Games been out 7 days and people like dinomight are already begging for protoss buffs. Sounds like this expansion could use more of what basically ruined the previous ones, mass collosus. Apparently storm got nerfed too? Its about time that a-move AOE units got nerfed. People acting like spellcasting micro is so much harder than trying to micro and kite with a stimmed bio ball while trying to snipe/emp while trying to deal with zealot warpins at home with units that need to be queued ahead of time and microd against chargelots. Yeah, I am not buying it actually. It finally feels like protoss has to micro as much as the other 2 races have since the beginning.
On the other hand, Avilo is already begging for protoss nerfs. Business as usual.
Personally, I think pvt is very, very different and it's going to be a good long while before anyone can say absolutely that we need balance intervention.
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PvT games have been so fun to watch lately. It is impossible to say where the matchup will end up by the time big tournaments start to roll around. The interaction between disruptors and liberators where each side is trying to pick those units off without taking huge damage is so much more fun than a single mass army vs mass army battle that is over in seconds. I think its a good thing that collosus can no longer be the primary damage dealer because it was literally a walking seige tank that was not entertaining at all. Not to mention that the only decent counter was the viking which are also a super boring unit.
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On November 18 2015 04:10 HugoBallzak wrote:
Games been out 7 days and people like dinomight are already begging for protoss buffs. Sounds like this expansion could use more of what basically ruined the previous ones, mass collosus. Apparently storm got nerfed too? Its about time that a-move AOE units got nerfed. People acting like spellcasting micro is so much harder than trying to micro and kite with a stimmed bio ball while trying to snipe/emp while trying to deal with zealot warpins at home with units that need to be queued ahead of time and microd against chargelots. Yeah, I am not buying it actually. It finally feels like protoss has to micro as much as the other 2 races have since the beginning.
Game has changed very little since the beta, which has been out for quite some time.
People like you are the reason that this game is turning out to be quite shit from a Protoss PoV. Go ahead and keep preaching your "Terran ultimate race / hardest race" crap. It only shows how ignorant you are.
Economy shift favors the other races. Nerfs to Protoss units favor the other races.
You'll look really silly when Protoss win something like 35% of their games in the coming months and DK runs in with a dumb patch like +10 to Pylon Overcharge duration.
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On November 18 2015 03:04 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 01:38 Startyr wrote:
The games with zest are not a great example as he was mostly trying to play the same style as hots. He was outplayed by someone who had more practice and experience with Lotv.
Another important change worth thinking about is the marauder now has:
damage:5
vs armoured:10
2 attacks
This means with protoss base armour and a guardian shield the marauder would do only 4 total damage to non armoured units. if you are ever 1 armour upgrade ahead then it only does 2 damage vs armour.
Adept sentry/zealot can destroy marines and marauders do very little damage to them, Protoss may not need to be as reliant on rushing to splash.
There are so many possibilities still to explore.
Marines + an economy that delays tech and favors massing mineral units. Game is so broken. Adept rushes wrecking everyone = "NERF THE ADEPT!" Protoss struggling to play a basic macro game vs Terran = "LET THEM FIGURE IT OUT." If only Protoss players got together and collectively bitched as a unit the way Terrans do.
I don't understand this tone, Dino. Terrans have been consistently bent over in this beta. And especially here, on TL, it would appear that Terran players are the minority. Hardly the squeakiest wheel.
TvP feels like a decent matchup, at the moment. It could go either way, with mistakes being much less forgivable. If we fall behind, Toss is unkillable. If Toss fall behind, Terran rolls them.
The real problem is Zerg. We can handle even and favored T and P opponents, but we can't kill a Zerg unless they're a full two leagues below us. Super crazy.
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On November 18 2015 05:03 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 03:04 DinoMight wrote:On November 18 2015 01:38 Startyr wrote:
The games with zest are not a great example as he was mostly trying to play the same style as hots. He was outplayed by someone who had more practice and experience with Lotv.
Another important change worth thinking about is the marauder now has:
damage:5
vs armoured:10
2 attacks
This means with protoss base armour and a guardian shield the marauder would do only 4 total damage to non armoured units. if you are ever 1 armour upgrade ahead then it only does 2 damage vs armour.
Adept sentry/zealot can destroy marines and marauders do very little damage to them, Protoss may not need to be as reliant on rushing to splash.
There are so many possibilities still to explore.
Marines + an economy that delays tech and favors massing mineral units. Game is so broken. Adept rushes wrecking everyone = "NERF THE ADEPT!" Protoss struggling to play a basic macro game vs Terran = "LET THEM FIGURE IT OUT." If only Protoss players got together and collectively bitched as a unit the way Terrans do. I don't understand this tone, Dino. Terrans have been consistently bent over in this beta. And especially here, on TL, it would appear that Terran players are the minority. Hardly the squeakiest wheel. TvP feels like a decent matchup, at the moment. It could go either way, with mistakes being much less forgivable. If we fall behind, Toss is unkillable. If Toss fall behind, Terran rolls them. The real problem is Zerg. We can handle even and favored T and P opponents, but we can't kill a Zerg unless they're a full two leagues below us. Super crazy.
Perhaps not the squeakiest wheel throughout the later stages of the beta, but certainly in the last 5 years Terrans have done their fair share of whining and it's lead to a lot of design changes for LotV.
I guess we have to wait and see until more pro level tournaments are played out, but generally the economy changes result in more bio and less splash to deal with it.
Also, Liberators are far too strong, I feel. Liberation zone is too wide. Supported by bio, it's really hard to get under them to kill them, and I you don't engage them in the middle of the map then they'll corner you in your own base and it's GG.
At least I can agree with you on XvZ. Matchup is fucking unwinnable.
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On November 18 2015 03:53 Mojito99 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 03:16 Charoisaur wrote:On November 18 2015 00:26 FreeZEternal wrote:
I've seen MC games on twitch and he goes for high templars in PvT. Basically uses the robo for prism, obs and immortals. Main AOE is HT. In pvt, he tries to end it before disruptors with non stop harassment of warp prism lol. YEAAAAAAAAAAAAHH. chargelot templar play viable again. sc2 is alive and DK a god!!! FUUCKK YEAAHHH! chargelot templar - no still not viable, zealot mine interaction has not changed. But maybe adept templar - but i guess that is what you meant.
there also was the marauder nerf and charge buff so zealots are better than in HotS. but it doesn't really matter if chargelots or adepts are used because the unit interactions are pretty similar.
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On November 18 2015 05:08 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 05:03 TimeSpiral wrote:On November 18 2015 03:04 DinoMight wrote:On November 18 2015 01:38 Startyr wrote:
The games with zest are not a great example as he was mostly trying to play the same style as hots. He was outplayed by someone who had more practice and experience with Lotv.
Another important change worth thinking about is the marauder now has:
damage:5
vs armoured:10
2 attacks
This means with protoss base armour and a guardian shield the marauder would do only 4 total damage to non armoured units. if you are ever 1 armour upgrade ahead then it only does 2 damage vs armour.
Adept sentry/zealot can destroy marines and marauders do very little damage to them, Protoss may not need to be as reliant on rushing to splash.
There are so many possibilities still to explore.
Marines + an economy that delays tech and favors massing mineral units. Game is so broken. Adept rushes wrecking everyone = "NERF THE ADEPT!" Protoss struggling to play a basic macro game vs Terran = "LET THEM FIGURE IT OUT." If only Protoss players got together and collectively bitched as a unit the way Terrans do. I don't understand this tone, Dino. Terrans have been consistently bent over in this beta. And especially here, on TL, it would appear that Terran players are the minority. Hardly the squeakiest wheel. TvP feels like a decent matchup, at the moment. It could go either way, with mistakes being much less forgivable. If we fall behind, Toss is unkillable. If Toss fall behind, Terran rolls them. The real problem is Zerg. We can handle even and favored T and P opponents, but we can't kill a Zerg unless they're a full two leagues below us. Super crazy. Perhaps not the squeakiest wheel throughout the later stages of the beta, but certainly in the last 5 years Terrans have done their fair share of whining and it's lead to a lot of design changes for LotV. I guess we have to wait and see until more pro level tournaments are played out, but generally the economy changes result in more bio and less splash to deal with it. Also, Liberators are far too strong, I feel. Liberation zone is too wide. Supported by bio, it's really hard to get under them to kill them, and I you don't engage them in the middle of the map then they'll corner you in your own base and it's GG. At least I can agree with you on XvZ. Matchup is fucking unwinnable.
Really? You're aggregating five years of life and somehow concluding that Terrans have disproportionately influenced LotV design decisions? That's a big, big stretch, even for you.
And you guys will absolutely never be happy with the Liberator. *shrugs* It got supremely nerfed. It's a single-target DPS unit that can't move, lol. I'm not going to get into the "what-if" scenarios with you, because we could both do that forever. Show me a replay where the Liberator is too strong, and we'll talk.
I don't even know what to say about Zerg. In Archon mode it's a laughable lolfest. Was happy to see Kim say that Archon Mode might need separate balancing (because it definitely does).
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well back on Topic, The Disruptor is just way more fun to play with then colossus. Also when the other race sees you go colossus they make vikings/corruptors so it's hard to do the late game carrier switch when they already have a decent sized Anti Air army. They really should just remove the colossus and maybe give Disruptors an upgrade at the robo bay, Like costing 2 less supply or fast move speed for the orbs or something.
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On November 18 2015 09:25 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 05:08 DinoMight wrote:On November 18 2015 05:03 TimeSpiral wrote:On November 18 2015 03:04 DinoMight wrote:On November 18 2015 01:38 Startyr wrote:
The games with zest are not a great example as he was mostly trying to play the same style as hots. He was outplayed by someone who had more practice and experience with Lotv.
Another important change worth thinking about is the marauder now has:
damage:5
vs armoured:10
2 attacks
This means with protoss base armour and a guardian shield the marauder would do only 4 total damage to non armoured units. if you are ever 1 armour upgrade ahead then it only does 2 damage vs armour.
Adept sentry/zealot can destroy marines and marauders do very little damage to them, Protoss may not need to be as reliant on rushing to splash.
There are so many possibilities still to explore.
Marines + an economy that delays tech and favors massing mineral units. Game is so broken. Adept rushes wrecking everyone = "NERF THE ADEPT!" Protoss struggling to play a basic macro game vs Terran = "LET THEM FIGURE IT OUT." If only Protoss players got together and collectively bitched as a unit the way Terrans do. I don't understand this tone, Dino. Terrans have been consistently bent over in this beta. And especially here, on TL, it would appear that Terran players are the minority. Hardly the squeakiest wheel. TvP feels like a decent matchup, at the moment. It could go either way, with mistakes being much less forgivable. If we fall behind, Toss is unkillable. If Toss fall behind, Terran rolls them. The real problem is Zerg. We can handle even and favored T and P opponents, but we can't kill a Zerg unless they're a full two leagues below us. Super crazy. Perhaps not the squeakiest wheel throughout the later stages of the beta, but certainly in the last 5 years Terrans have done their fair share of whining and it's lead to a lot of design changes for LotV. I guess we have to wait and see until more pro level tournaments are played out, but generally the economy changes result in more bio and less splash to deal with it. Also, Liberators are far too strong, I feel. Liberation zone is too wide. Supported by bio, it's really hard to get under them to kill them, and I you don't engage them in the middle of the map then they'll corner you in your own base and it's GG. At least I can agree with you on XvZ. Matchup is fucking unwinnable. Really? You're aggregating five years of life and somehow concluding that Terrans have disproportionately influenced LotV design decisions? That's a big, big stretch, even for you. And you guys will absolutely never be happy with the Liberator. *shrugs* It got supremely nerfed. It's a single-target DPS unit that can't move, lol. I'm not going to get into the "what-if" scenarios with you, because we could both do that forever. Show me a replay where the Liberator is too strong, and we'll talk. I don't even know what to say about Zerg. In Archon mode it's a laughable lolfest. Was happy to see Kim say that Archon Mode might need separate balancing (because it definitely does).
Maybe if they shrunk the Liberation Zone a little bit, right now it just feels insanely big for.. what is it.. 90? damage at that rate of fire.
Archon mode simply is going to allow for better multitasking from each race. Whoever can abuse that the most will come out on top. Strategies/builds/etc. will be totally different in Archon mode and it's going to come down to how well does a team communicate and how effectively can they split up unit control (not just I macro, you macro...).
Zerg is a tad stupid right now.
Back on topic - I think there's no reason to make a Disruptor in PvT or a Colossus in PvZ. In the first case Storm is better in the second Disruptors clearly > Colossi.
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I am not by any means a great player, however I will say Colo nerf broke my heart, that was the unit that made me play the game T_T. I'm notorious for never using HT, and since I skipped time on beta my disruptor control is terrabad. Out of preference of unit, Colo and Disrup are top. What will I bank on for control and success in LotV [for now]? HT.... Kinda makes me a little sad. Gonna travel through Rage City before I get a handle on the disrupts.
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On November 18 2015 23:37 AlbatrossX3 wrote:
I am not by any means a great player, however I will say Colo nerf broke my heart, that was the unit that made me play the game T_T. I'm notorious for never using HT, and since I skipped time on beta my disruptor control is terrabad. Out of preference of unit, Colo and Disrup are top. What will I bank on for control and success in LotV [for now]? HT.... Kinda makes me a little sad. Gonna travel through Rage City before I get a handle on the disrupts.
wow a player who loves collossi. Haven't seen many of them.
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On November 18 2015 23:54 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 23:37 AlbatrossX3 wrote:
I am not by any means a great player, however I will say Colo nerf broke my heart, that was the unit that made me play the game T_T. I'm notorious for never using HT, and since I skipped time on beta my disruptor control is terrabad. Out of preference of unit, Colo and Disrup are top. What will I bank on for control and success in LotV [for now]? HT.... Kinda makes me a little sad. Gonna travel through Rage City before I get a handle on the disrupts. wow a player who loves collossi. Haven't seen many of them.
Colossi were fine. Believe it or not the entire SC2 community is not made of TL trolls.
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On November 18 2015 12:07 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 09:25 TimeSpiral wrote:On November 18 2015 05:08 DinoMight wrote:On November 18 2015 05:03 TimeSpiral wrote:On November 18 2015 03:04 DinoMight wrote:On November 18 2015 01:38 Startyr wrote:
The games with zest are not a great example as he was mostly trying to play the same style as hots. He was outplayed by someone who had more practice and experience with Lotv.
Another important change worth thinking about is the marauder now has:
damage:5
vs armoured:10
2 attacks
This means with protoss base armour and a guardian shield the marauder would do only 4 total damage to non armoured units. if you are ever 1 armour upgrade ahead then it only does 2 damage vs armour.
Adept sentry/zealot can destroy marines and marauders do very little damage to them, Protoss may not need to be as reliant on rushing to splash.
There are so many possibilities still to explore.
Marines + an economy that delays tech and favors massing mineral units. Game is so broken. Adept rushes wrecking everyone = "NERF THE ADEPT!" Protoss struggling to play a basic macro game vs Terran = "LET THEM FIGURE IT OUT." If only Protoss players got together and collectively bitched as a unit the way Terrans do. I don't understand this tone, Dino. Terrans have been consistently bent over in this beta. And especially here, on TL, it would appear that Terran players are the minority. Hardly the squeakiest wheel. TvP feels like a decent matchup, at the moment. It could go either way, with mistakes being much less forgivable. If we fall behind, Toss is unkillable. If Toss fall behind, Terran rolls them. The real problem is Zerg. We can handle even and favored T and P opponents, but we can't kill a Zerg unless they're a full two leagues below us. Super crazy. Perhaps not the squeakiest wheel throughout the later stages of the beta, but certainly in the last 5 years Terrans have done their fair share of whining and it's lead to a lot of design changes for LotV. I guess we have to wait and see until more pro level tournaments are played out, but generally the economy changes result in more bio and less splash to deal with it. Also, Liberators are far too strong, I feel. Liberation zone is too wide. Supported by bio, it's really hard to get under them to kill them, and I you don't engage them in the middle of the map then they'll corner you in your own base and it's GG. At least I can agree with you on XvZ. Matchup is fucking unwinnable. Really? You're aggregating five years of life and somehow concluding that Terrans have disproportionately influenced LotV design decisions? That's a big, big stretch, even for you. And you guys will absolutely never be happy with the Liberator. *shrugs* It got supremely nerfed. It's a single-target DPS unit that can't move, lol. I'm not going to get into the "what-if" scenarios with you, because we could both do that forever. Show me a replay where the Liberator is too strong, and we'll talk. I don't even know what to say about Zerg. In Archon mode it's a laughable lolfest. Was happy to see Kim say that Archon Mode might need separate balancing (because it definitely does). Maybe if they shrunk the Liberation Zone a little bit, right now it just feels insanely big for.. what is it.. 90? damage at that rate of fire. Archon mode simply is going to allow for better multitasking from each race. Whoever can abuse that the most will come out on top. Strategies/builds/etc. will be totally different in Archon mode and it's going to come down to how well does a team communicate and how effectively can they split up unit control (not just I macro, you macro...). Zerg is a tad stupid right now. Back on topic - I think there's no reason to make a Disruptor in PvT or a Colossus in PvZ. In the first case Storm is better in the second Disruptors clearly > Colossi.
I think the Lib Zone is about the same radial range as a Marine. Looks about 5 units to me, right? When it's in Defender Mode, it can't move, and none of the attacks can damage structures. Pretty gigantic disadvantages, no? It's casting range is also a double-edged sword, as it leaves the flanks completely wide open, unlike units with radial attack ranges.
On Topic: Disruptor vs. Colossus
From a Terran perspective--in Archon Mode--a critical mass of Disruptors makes it near-impossible to properly engage a Protoss death ball. Then, if you do engage, you have to move command during the fight, dramatically reducing DPS, and you just lose the fight. When one person has sole control over the army, if they have enough disruptors, you can continuously have the nova ball flying out. The Terran must run or take game ending damage, and there is no charging in to snipe the disruptor, because then you're in range of the actual army death ball (and the other disruptors).
As far as which one to build? It's amazingly effective to have both. Two colossus and four disruptors feels like the magic numbers. I agree that opening colossus is probably the way to go, because you need that a-click splash, and bio cannot attack into colossus early on, especially if there are adepts and/or PO.
I think you're super wrong about the Disruptor in TvP. I don't really buy the "micro is too hard" argument. It's a point and click death spell, on cool down, that can hit burrowed units without a detector, and can damage buildings. It should be at least a little hard to use, lol.
I have no idea about PvZ, I don't play Toss enough to know.
Go play Archon Mode. Simplifying the difference to "just multitasking" is to incredibly understate the difference, considering that multitasking is SC2.
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I'm a master player and i really like closus in pvt. Most of the terrans make liberators instead of vikings and i feel like its easier to protect them because of that. After 3 colosi i trow in 2 distruptors so terran cant run into my army and has to micro against them while the colosus deal constant damage. I use them every game and i have 81% win rate in pvt in top masters.
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On November 19 2015 00:44 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 12:07 DinoMight wrote:On November 18 2015 09:25 TimeSpiral wrote:On November 18 2015 05:08 DinoMight wrote:On November 18 2015 05:03 TimeSpiral wrote:On November 18 2015 03:04 DinoMight wrote:On November 18 2015 01:38 Startyr wrote:
The games with zest are not a great example as he was mostly trying to play the same style as hots. He was outplayed by someone who had more practice and experience with Lotv.
Another important change worth thinking about is the marauder now has:
damage:5
vs armoured:10
2 attacks
This means with protoss base armour and a guardian shield the marauder would do only 4 total damage to non armoured units. if you are ever 1 armour upgrade ahead then it only does 2 damage vs armour.
Adept sentry/zealot can destroy marines and marauders do very little damage to them, Protoss may not need to be as reliant on rushing to splash.
There are so many possibilities still to explore.
Marines + an economy that delays tech and favors massing mineral units. Game is so broken. Adept rushes wrecking everyone = "NERF THE ADEPT!" Protoss struggling to play a basic macro game vs Terran = "LET THEM FIGURE IT OUT." If only Protoss players got together and collectively bitched as a unit the way Terrans do. I don't understand this tone, Dino. Terrans have been consistently bent over in this beta. And especially here, on TL, it would appear that Terran players are the minority. Hardly the squeakiest wheel. TvP feels like a decent matchup, at the moment. It could go either way, with mistakes being much less forgivable. If we fall behind, Toss is unkillable. If Toss fall behind, Terran rolls them. The real problem is Zerg. We can handle even and favored T and P opponents, but we can't kill a Zerg unless they're a full two leagues below us. Super crazy. Perhaps not the squeakiest wheel throughout the later stages of the beta, but certainly in the last 5 years Terrans have done their fair share of whining and it's lead to a lot of design changes for LotV. I guess we have to wait and see until more pro level tournaments are played out, but generally the economy changes result in more bio and less splash to deal with it. Also, Liberators are far too strong, I feel. Liberation zone is too wide. Supported by bio, it's really hard to get under them to kill them, and I you don't engage them in the middle of the map then they'll corner you in your own base and it's GG. At least I can agree with you on XvZ. Matchup is fucking unwinnable. Really? You're aggregating five years of life and somehow concluding that Terrans have disproportionately influenced LotV design decisions? That's a big, big stretch, even for you. And you guys will absolutely never be happy with the Liberator. *shrugs* It got supremely nerfed. It's a single-target DPS unit that can't move, lol. I'm not going to get into the "what-if" scenarios with you, because we could both do that forever. Show me a replay where the Liberator is too strong, and we'll talk. I don't even know what to say about Zerg. In Archon mode it's a laughable lolfest. Was happy to see Kim say that Archon Mode might need separate balancing (because it definitely does). Maybe if they shrunk the Liberation Zone a little bit, right now it just feels insanely big for.. what is it.. 90? damage at that rate of fire. Archon mode simply is going to allow for better multitasking from each race. Whoever can abuse that the most will come out on top. Strategies/builds/etc. will be totally different in Archon mode and it's going to come down to how well does a team communicate and how effectively can they split up unit control (not just I macro, you macro...). Zerg is a tad stupid right now. Back on topic - I think there's no reason to make a Disruptor in PvT or a Colossus in PvZ. In the first case Storm is better in the second Disruptors clearly > Colossi. I think the Lib Zone is about the same radial range as a Marine. Looks about 5 units to me, right? When it's in Defender Mode, it can't move, and none of the attacks can damage structures. Pretty gigantic disadvantages, no? It's casting range is also a double-edged sword, as it leaves the flanks completely wide open, unlike units with radial attack ranges. On Topic: Disruptor vs. ColossusFrom a Terran perspective--in Archon Mode--a critical mass of Disruptors makes it near-impossible to properly engage a Protoss death ball. Then, if you do engage, you have to move command during the fight, dramatically reducing DPS, and you just lose the fight. When one person has sole control over the army, if they have enough disruptors, you can continuously have the nova ball flying out. The Terran must run or take game ending damage, and there is no charging in to snipe the disruptor, because then you're in range of the actual army death ball (and the other disruptors). As far as which one to build? It's amazingly effective to have both. Two colossus and four disruptors feels like the magic numbers. I agree that opening colossus is probably the way to go, because you need that a-click splash, and bio cannot attack into colossus early on, especially if there are adepts and/or PO. I think you're super wrong about the Disruptor in TvP. I don't really buy the "micro is too hard" argument. It's a point and click death spell, on cool down, that can hit burrowed units without a detector, and can damage buildings. It should be at least a little hard to use, lol. I have no idea about PvZ, I don't play Toss enough to know. Go play Archon Mode. Simplifying the difference to "just multitasking" is to incredibly understate the difference, considering that multitasking is SC2.
You must be doing something wrong to let your opponent mass that many disruptors. They have pretty glaring weaknesses. They only attack once every 40 seconds or so. They can't attack up a cliff. They do friendly fire...
Whenever I go disruptors I get absolutely wrecked by guys who are essentially parade pushing against me and using drops to abuse the mechanics of the disruptor shot. What does a disruptor do about a drop in your mineral line, for example? Can't do anything or risk blowing up all your probes.
Maybe your Archon mode experience is different but in 1v1 at least I've found it really hard to get anything meaningful done with them vs T. Storm is much better and Colos can hold until you get there.
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On November 19 2015 00:54 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 00:44 TimeSpiral wrote:On November 18 2015 12:07 DinoMight wrote:On November 18 2015 09:25 TimeSpiral wrote:On November 18 2015 05:08 DinoMight wrote:On November 18 2015 05:03 TimeSpiral wrote:On November 18 2015 03:04 DinoMight wrote:On November 18 2015 01:38 Startyr wrote:
The games with zest are not a great example as he was mostly trying to play the same style as hots. He was outplayed by someone who had more practice and experience with Lotv.
Another important change worth thinking about is the marauder now has:
damage:5
vs armoured:10
2 attacks
This means with protoss base armour and a guardian shield the marauder would do only 4 total damage to non armoured units. if you are ever 1 armour upgrade ahead then it only does 2 damage vs armour.
Adept sentry/zealot can destroy marines and marauders do very little damage to them, Protoss may not need to be as reliant on rushing to splash.
There are so many possibilities still to explore.
Marines + an economy that delays tech and favors massing mineral units. Game is so broken. Adept rushes wrecking everyone = "NERF THE ADEPT!" Protoss struggling to play a basic macro game vs Terran = "LET THEM FIGURE IT OUT." If only Protoss players got together and collectively bitched as a unit the way Terrans do. I don't understand this tone, Dino. Terrans have been consistently bent over in this beta. And especially here, on TL, it would appear that Terran players are the minority. Hardly the squeakiest wheel. TvP feels like a decent matchup, at the moment. It could go either way, with mistakes being much less forgivable. If we fall behind, Toss is unkillable. If Toss fall behind, Terran rolls them. The real problem is Zerg. We can handle even and favored T and P opponents, but we can't kill a Zerg unless they're a full two leagues below us. Super crazy. Perhaps not the squeakiest wheel throughout the later stages of the beta, but certainly in the last 5 years Terrans have done their fair share of whining and it's lead to a lot of design changes for LotV. I guess we have to wait and see until more pro level tournaments are played out, but generally the economy changes result in more bio and less splash to deal with it. Also, Liberators are far too strong, I feel. Liberation zone is too wide. Supported by bio, it's really hard to get under them to kill them, and I you don't engage them in the middle of the map then they'll corner you in your own base and it's GG. At least I can agree with you on XvZ. Matchup is fucking unwinnable. Really? You're aggregating five years of life and somehow concluding that Terrans have disproportionately influenced LotV design decisions? That's a big, big stretch, even for you. And you guys will absolutely never be happy with the Liberator. *shrugs* It got supremely nerfed. It's a single-target DPS unit that can't move, lol. I'm not going to get into the "what-if" scenarios with you, because we could both do that forever. Show me a replay where the Liberator is too strong, and we'll talk. I don't even know what to say about Zerg. In Archon mode it's a laughable lolfest. Was happy to see Kim say that Archon Mode might need separate balancing (because it definitely does). Maybe if they shrunk the Liberation Zone a little bit, right now it just feels insanely big for.. what is it.. 90? damage at that rate of fire. Archon mode simply is going to allow for better multitasking from each race. Whoever can abuse that the most will come out on top. Strategies/builds/etc. will be totally different in Archon mode and it's going to come down to how well does a team communicate and how effectively can they split up unit control (not just I macro, you macro...). Zerg is a tad stupid right now. Back on topic - I think there's no reason to make a Disruptor in PvT or a Colossus in PvZ. In the first case Storm is better in the second Disruptors clearly > Colossi. I think the Lib Zone is about the same radial range as a Marine. Looks about 5 units to me, right? When it's in Defender Mode, it can't move, and none of the attacks can damage structures. Pretty gigantic disadvantages, no? It's casting range is also a double-edged sword, as it leaves the flanks completely wide open, unlike units with radial attack ranges. On Topic: Disruptor vs. ColossusFrom a Terran perspective--in Archon Mode--a critical mass of Disruptors makes it near-impossible to properly engage a Protoss death ball. Then, if you do engage, you have to move command during the fight, dramatically reducing DPS, and you just lose the fight. When one person has sole control over the army, if they have enough disruptors, you can continuously have the nova ball flying out. The Terran must run or take game ending damage, and there is no charging in to snipe the disruptor, because then you're in range of the actual army death ball (and the other disruptors). As far as which one to build? It's amazingly effective to have both. Two colossus and four disruptors feels like the magic numbers. I agree that opening colossus is probably the way to go, because you need that a-click splash, and bio cannot attack into colossus early on, especially if there are adepts and/or PO. I think you're super wrong about the Disruptor in TvP. I don't really buy the "micro is too hard" argument. It's a point and click death spell, on cool down, that can hit burrowed units without a detector, and can damage buildings. It should be at least a little hard to use, lol. I have no idea about PvZ, I don't play Toss enough to know. Go play Archon Mode. Simplifying the difference to "just multitasking" is to incredibly understate the difference, considering that multitasking is SC2. You must be doing something wrong to let your opponent mass that many disruptors.
Or you must be doing something wrong ; ) That claim easily cuts both ways, friend.
Or we're both doing many things wrong (most likely scenario). Look at the guy directly above you. Protoss can definitely beat Terran, often, and vice versa. I think it's a pretty good match up, atm. Whereas, I'm not convinced that anyone can be an evenly-skilled Zerg, atm.
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On November 19 2015 01:49 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 00:54 DinoMight wrote:On November 19 2015 00:44 TimeSpiral wrote:On November 18 2015 12:07 DinoMight wrote:On November 18 2015 09:25 TimeSpiral wrote:On November 18 2015 05:08 DinoMight wrote:On November 18 2015 05:03 TimeSpiral wrote:On November 18 2015 03:04 DinoMight wrote:On November 18 2015 01:38 Startyr wrote:
The games with zest are not a great example as he was mostly trying to play the same style as hots. He was outplayed by someone who had more practice and experience with Lotv.
Another important change worth thinking about is the marauder now has:
damage:5
vs armoured:10
2 attacks
This means with protoss base armour and a guardian shield the marauder would do only 4 total damage to non armoured units. if you are ever 1 armour upgrade ahead then it only does 2 damage vs armour.
Adept sentry/zealot can destroy marines and marauders do very little damage to them, Protoss may not need to be as reliant on rushing to splash.
There are so many possibilities still to explore.
Marines + an economy that delays tech and favors massing mineral units. Game is so broken. Adept rushes wrecking everyone = "NERF THE ADEPT!" Protoss struggling to play a basic macro game vs Terran = "LET THEM FIGURE IT OUT." If only Protoss players got together and collectively bitched as a unit the way Terrans do. I don't understand this tone, Dino. Terrans have been consistently bent over in this beta. And especially here, on TL, it would appear that Terran players are the minority. Hardly the squeakiest wheel. TvP feels like a decent matchup, at the moment. It could go either way, with mistakes being much less forgivable. If we fall behind, Toss is unkillable. If Toss fall behind, Terran rolls them. The real problem is Zerg. We can handle even and favored T and P opponents, but we can't kill a Zerg unless they're a full two leagues below us. Super crazy. Perhaps not the squeakiest wheel throughout the later stages of the beta, but certainly in the last 5 years Terrans have done their fair share of whining and it's lead to a lot of design changes for LotV. I guess we have to wait and see until more pro level tournaments are played out, but generally the economy changes result in more bio and less splash to deal with it. Also, Liberators are far too strong, I feel. Liberation zone is too wide. Supported by bio, it's really hard to get under them to kill them, and I you don't engage them in the middle of the map then they'll corner you in your own base and it's GG. At least I can agree with you on XvZ. Matchup is fucking unwinnable. Really? You're aggregating five years of life and somehow concluding that Terrans have disproportionately influenced LotV design decisions? That's a big, big stretch, even for you. And you guys will absolutely never be happy with the Liberator. *shrugs* It got supremely nerfed. It's a single-target DPS unit that can't move, lol. I'm not going to get into the "what-if" scenarios with you, because we could both do that forever. Show me a replay where the Liberator is too strong, and we'll talk. I don't even know what to say about Zerg. In Archon mode it's a laughable lolfest. Was happy to see Kim say that Archon Mode might need separate balancing (because it definitely does). Maybe if they shrunk the Liberation Zone a little bit, right now it just feels insanely big for.. what is it.. 90? damage at that rate of fire. Archon mode simply is going to allow for better multitasking from each race. Whoever can abuse that the most will come out on top. Strategies/builds/etc. will be totally different in Archon mode and it's going to come down to how well does a team communicate and how effectively can they split up unit control (not just I macro, you macro...). Zerg is a tad stupid right now. Back on topic - I think there's no reason to make a Disruptor in PvT or a Colossus in PvZ. In the first case Storm is better in the second Disruptors clearly > Colossi. I think the Lib Zone is about the same radial range as a Marine. Looks about 5 units to me, right? When it's in Defender Mode, it can't move, and none of the attacks can damage structures. Pretty gigantic disadvantages, no? It's casting range is also a double-edged sword, as it leaves the flanks completely wide open, unlike units with radial attack ranges. On Topic: Disruptor vs. ColossusFrom a Terran perspective--in Archon Mode--a critical mass of Disruptors makes it near-impossible to properly engage a Protoss death ball. Then, if you do engage, you have to move command during the fight, dramatically reducing DPS, and you just lose the fight. When one person has sole control over the army, if they have enough disruptors, you can continuously have the nova ball flying out. The Terran must run or take game ending damage, and there is no charging in to snipe the disruptor, because then you're in range of the actual army death ball (and the other disruptors). As far as which one to build? It's amazingly effective to have both. Two colossus and four disruptors feels like the magic numbers. I agree that opening colossus is probably the way to go, because you need that a-click splash, and bio cannot attack into colossus early on, especially if there are adepts and/or PO. I think you're super wrong about the Disruptor in TvP. I don't really buy the "micro is too hard" argument. It's a point and click death spell, on cool down, that can hit burrowed units without a detector, and can damage buildings. It should be at least a little hard to use, lol. I have no idea about PvZ, I don't play Toss enough to know. Go play Archon Mode. Simplifying the difference to "just multitasking" is to incredibly understate the difference, considering that multitasking is SC2. You must be doing something wrong to let your opponent mass that many disruptors. Or you must be doing something wrong ; ) That claim easily cuts both ways, friend. Or we're both doing many things wrong (most likely scenario). Look at the guy directly above you. Protoss can definitely beat Terran, often, and vice versa. I think it's a pretty good match up, atm. Whereas, I'm not convinced that anyone can be an evenly-skilled Zerg, atm.
Lol yeah we're probably both doing lots of things wrong. PvT is okay for me...I'm 57% in all matchups but I think it's just because I haven't played enough.
When I lose to Protoss it's usually because I fucked up.
When I win against Terran it's because I'm playing really well.
When I win against Zerg it's because they fucked up or I'm just a much better player than they are (I was Masters several times in HotS, playing dudes who topped out at Plat....)
Zerg is definitely imba at the moment.
But I do feel like I have to try harder vs T. I'm dropping them everywhere, setting traps with stasis, flanks with storm, etc... and they're mostly just parade pushing me.
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On November 17 2015 21:43 Sipario wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2015 20:28 JulDraGoN wrote:I think Blizzard will change the colossus sooner or later if it is not used. Colossus is the only Protoss unit with no ability to activate right? Just you wait! I would not be surprised if they added an ability to make it more versatile. Maybe something along the lines of - Press c to fire 3 corsairs from the colossus head to fight air units in the targeted area  I don't want another spell-caster unit, i don't have enough hands to use forcefield,storm,blink,disruptor,prysm,adept. Why toss have to manage so different units during engage ??
Because Protoss is less demanding sheer mechanics wise so it's balanced by more complex army management.
Disruptor so infinitely better to play against, I feel like when Protoss wrecks me with them they wrecked me with skill compared to A move Colossus, Disruptor is good for the game, Colossus should just be removed.
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EPT
