|
Canada8157 Posts
Hey guys! Been playing a lot of LotV today and i’ve been tinkering with some builds. I’ve been able to rough down one per match up, and have had good records with them. They are in no way optimal yet, but hopefully these can give you basic openings for the time being.
TvT:
+ Show Spoiler +Build order: 14 supply 16 barracks 16 gas 19 reactor 19 command center 19 supply depot 20 factory 2x marines 23 gas 4x marines 30 starport 30 tech lab on factory (skip marine 7/8 for siege tank) 31 siege tank (resume non-stop marine production) 40 medivac 47 siege tank 55 medivac Barracks 2/3 This is a build I’ve been using since Day 1 of the beta, and it’s probably one of the best ones. It’s definitely the most refined build I’ve been able to make, and is an all around solid opening. The basics are: - Quick command center to kick-start economy
- high number of early marines to hold cheese
- quick factory/starport to help hold against tech pushes
Rather than start making marines with the barracks, you’ll want to start a reactor immediately after it’s done. You’ll have 52 gas at this point so you can start it right away. Maybe it’s vulnerable to a mass proxy barracks strategy, but for any reaper timings you’ll already have double marine production on the way to hold. Follow this up with a 1:40 command center to start the economy. Next up is the factory and second gas timing, I aim for the second gas at around 2:20; this is the timing that will give you 125 gas as soon as your tech lab finishes on the factory. A quick note, skip marines 7 and 8 so that you will have 150/125 for when the tech lab finishes, and as soon as you start the tank start marine production again. Right after you finish the factory, start the starport with the same SCV. You’ll be slightly behind in gas for the first medivac, but the delay won’t be long and you can start it early on. Optimally I make two siege tanks and two medivacs, and use them for siege tank drops. After both are done, I drop my second and third barracks and start more addons on the factory and starport so that I can start stim/combat shields. You have many options here. You can either continue to use the siege tanks to harass your enemy while you tech and economy up, or you can use them defensively if you are being attacked. You can also make a big timing push with the two siege tanks, two medivacs, and the ~16 marines you’ll have out at that time.
TvZ:
+ Show Spoiler +Build order: 17 CC 18 barracks 19 gas 21 reactor (start 2x marine production) 22 command center 26 factory 31 gas 47 medivac 2x ebay 2x barracks This is a ragtag variation of the 4M opening from HotS. Still needs a lot of ironing, but the gas timings line up well with +1+1 and bio upgrades. Scouting early on here is key. You need to know if they are going for an early bust, and that will decide whether or not you can drop the early reactor or not. After four marines you can swap the factory onto the reactor and start double hellion production, and continue on with 4M from there. It’s important to get an early second gas so that you can afford +1/+1 and stim at the same time. Use your hellions to prevent creep spread as normal, and behind it make your extra addons and structures from there. Again, I play bio so I dropped more barracks, and all the timings are similar to the HotS 4M playstyle. From here it’s the same, continue your upgrades, float your third command center to the third base location when you are on full 2 base saturation, and start applying pressure when your first two medivcas are out.
TvP:
+ Show Spoiler +Build order:
14 depot
16 barracks
16 gas
19 reactor
19 command center
20 factory
2x marines
30 widow mine
32 starport
38 gas
38 widow mine (tech lab when finished)
45 medivac (tech lab when finished)
2x barracks
Notice anything similar? This build is almost identical to the TvT opening, with the first difference coming at the gas timing. This build is just a widow mine drop, with lots of marines to compliment. Get the early reactor for big marine production, follow it up with a factory and two widow mines, and a starport and a medivac. This will gear you up for two widow mines and four marines in a dropship, while you have a decent chunk of marines back at home to defend.
After the two widow mines and single medivac are done, drop tech labs on the factory and starport and start your 2nd and 3rd barracks so that you can start bio upgrades. I haven’t played around with variations from here, so you can either drop a third command center, or go with the 4/5 barracks before third and play from there.
Hopefully this helps you Terrans get a little kickstart in the expansions! There will be more to come when we figure out more precise timings and play the game more, stay tuned!
|
I'm skeptical about playing a mine drop opening in TvP. I find it difficult to hold really aggressive stalker disruptor play if you don't have the bio army and production you'd have from a CC first opening (which is now even stronger--you can afford 3 barracks and a gas before you build your orbitals.)
In your TvZ build how do you hold ravager pushes without a banshee or very much bio?
|
Canada8157 Posts
These were just from 13 games, I haven't had a chance to play vs. everything yet so they won't be fullproof at all, this was just to give some baseline builds for people who haven't been able to find anything.
|
Do you have a fast CC going for double liberator with widow mines build? a build that I can use in all 3 matchups
|
Thank you extra much for also including the early game plans with the builds, it's somewhere to start and I immediately feel less lost even if it probably turns out I have to adjust everything to my skill level. *cough* 
|
I'm pretty sure opening Hellion Banshee is necessary because of ravager timings, and CC first is super vulnerable to a lot of builds- like 1 base baneling bust- even if you see them coming in the new economy. 1 base baneling bust hits at 3:10, which is before your factory or reactor are even done with cc first. Which isn't to say you can't do it, but you're basically just accepting an autoloss vs this.
|
On November 12 2015 14:01 Pursuit_ wrote:
I'm pretty sure opening Hellion Banshee is necessary because of ravager timings, and CC first is super vulnerable to a lot of builds- like 1 base baneling bust- even if you see them coming in the new economy. 1 base baneling bust hits at 3:10, which is before your factory or reactor are even done with cc first. Which isn't to say you can't do it, but you're basically just accepting an autoloss vs this.
Is 1 base baneling bust any harder to defend in LotV than in HotS? Because if it isn't, then CC first is fine.
Hellion banshee seems mandatory but I've seen a few pros do more bio-heavy builds instead.
|
On November 12 2015 15:24 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2015 14:01 Pursuit_ wrote:
I'm pretty sure opening Hellion Banshee is necessary because of ravager timings, and CC first is super vulnerable to a lot of builds- like 1 base baneling bust- even if you see them coming in the new economy. 1 base baneling bust hits at 3:10, which is before your factory or reactor are even done with cc first. Which isn't to say you can't do it, but you're basically just accepting an autoloss vs this. Is 1 base baneling bust any harder to defend in LotV than in HotS? Because if it isn't, then CC first is fine. Hellion banshee seems mandatory but I've seen a few pros do more bio-heavy builds instead.
Like I said, your factory isn't even finished when it hits. It's like 2/3 done iirc. In HotS your first two hellions were popping when the banelings hit. And to me it looked like the LotV one hits with a lot more lings, but I could be wrong.
It takes a little over 2 minutes and 40 seconds to build a barracks, factory + reactor and 2 hellions. 1 base baneling bust hits at 3:10. CC first makes it very difficult to hold.
|
Canada8157 Posts
On November 12 2015 12:20 Golgotha wrote:
Do you have a fast CC going for double liberator with widow mines build? a build that I can use in all 3 matchups
I haven't played around with liberators yet, I've just been keeping things relatively simple until I figure out more precise timings.
|
I'm not too fond of going CC first against Z. I have only tried it twice (what a sample size, I know :D), but I feel like it gives Z's way too much comfort early on.
What I'm currently doing to (some) success has been going gas first into reactor helions (while fitting a CC somewhere in there), and then add a 3rd CC soon after (and getting a viking). From then on, you add more barracks, Ebays, etc etc. It's safer: you have your helions earlier and you can kill OL's (so no Nydus shenanigans). You can also put more pressure on the Z, and whle you generally can't stop the 3rd from going up, you should be able to prevent your opponent from droning it up super early. The only thing I haven't managed to nail down so far is the gas timings and the upgrades.
Maybe it puts you slightly behind economically, but it gives you control over the early game.
Edit: woops, I almost forgot: Thanks Jer for giving us those tips :-)
|
Some interesting builds right there. I use to do "Racks reactor CC into Factory Spatio" in TvT. It is a good opening. Once I have been crushed by a "1base 2 Racks reapers" unscouted...a real a slaughterhouse ! (tank was not yet pop out)
I do think to myself : what's about gaz 15 ?
I saw Bomber did it on his stream in every matchup. On LoTV it is interessting because it doesn't delay your fast CC, and you have 50 gaz for reaper just when the racks is done.
|
Canada8157 Posts
I did get beat by a proxy 2 rax reaper as well, but this was because I was unfamiliar with the timings. Now that I know the timing, I can adjust with a bunker while waiting for my tanks.
Scouting is key here; I send my SCV just after i start my barracks. No gas = proxy 4 rax marine, gas = proxy 2 rax reaper. Bunker the ramp to your main if it's a gasless proxy, the marines will be at your natural before you can get the bunker up. If it's a proxy reaper, you might be able to bunker the natural but I'll have to check the timing.
|
In it's present state is there a reason to build Cyclones?
|
On November 13 2015 03:50 Tenks wrote:
In it's present state is there a reason to build Cyclones?
that's what i'm wondering
|
On November 13 2015 03:50 Tenks wrote:
In it's present state is there a reason to build Cyclones?
From my reasoning, no. Theyre 'okay' as a defensive early unit against Protoss, but that's about it.
|
To really be safe in TvT are you pretty much forced into 1/1/1?
|
On November 13 2015 04:56 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2015 03:50 Tenks wrote:
In it's present state is there a reason to build Cyclones? From my reasoning, no. Theyre 'okay' as a defensive early unit against Protoss, but that's about it.
hellion cyclone openings seem pretty strong imo. Just need to stop cyclone production at some point because they don't scale well in the lategame.
|
On November 13 2015 05:09 Tenks wrote:
To really be safe in TvT are you pretty much forced into 1/1/1?
Not necessarily, with good positioning i've had success in defending the dreaded tank drops with nothing but marines after a macro opening.
|
On November 13 2015 05:24 Ctone23 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2015 05:09 Tenks wrote:
To really be safe in TvT are you pretty much forced into 1/1/1? Not necessarily, with good positioning i've had success in defending the dreaded tank drops with nothing but marines after a macro opening.
My concern mostly lies with Liberator openings and not having Vikings
|
On November 13 2015 05:09 Tenks wrote:
To really be safe in TvT are you pretty much forced into 1/1/1?
It's basically the same as HotS in this regard, 1/1/1 is just superior to bio openings.
|
Im sorry but I have to call you out. You are using the word "build" incorrectly.
let’s ask the question “What is a build order?” A build order is an optimization of an idea. That is it’s the best possible way to do some thing. Now, I do mean idea in as broad a sense as possible. An idea could be something as simple as, “Hey, if I have +1 upgrade for my zealots for attack they can kill a zergling in two hits.” And we have a lot of builds that now revolve around getting that upgrade very quickly. Or a terran player might say, “Wow, zergs really like mutalisks and lurkers against me. Maybe I can try to kill them before even gets his lair tech going.” Now all of a sudden we have bunker rushes and fast tank pushes being motivated from this idea. Your idea could be something tactical, like “Wow, this bridge is very narrow, I bet if I controlled this my opponent would have a very hard time breaking out this front.” This is a great motivator for a huge number of builds. And although it sounds a little vague a build is an optimization of an idea, I want to use that definition because it is very important that I keep referring back to my initial idea. And make sure that I’m not contradicting that or violating it in some way.
- Day9 (A New Look at Build Orders) Podcast Transcript
|
On November 13 2015 11:30 EJK wrote:Im sorry but I have to call you out. You are using the word "build" incorrectly. Show nested quote + let’s ask the question “What is a build order?” A build order is an optimization of an idea. That is it’s the best possible way to do some thing. Now, I do mean idea in as broad a sense as possible. An idea could be something as simple as, “Hey, if I have +1 upgrade for my zealots for attack they can kill a zergling in two hits.” And we have a lot of builds that now revolve around getting that upgrade very quickly. Or a terran player might say, “Wow, zergs really like mutalisks and lurkers against me. Maybe I can try to kill them before even gets his lair tech going.” Now all of a sudden we have bunker rushes and fast tank pushes being motivated from this idea. Your idea could be something tactical, like “Wow, this bridge is very narrow, I bet if I controlled this my opponent would have a very hard time breaking out this front.” This is a great motivator for a huge number of builds. And although it sounds a little vague a build is an optimization of an idea, I want to use that definition because it is very important that I keep referring back to my initial idea. And make sure that I’m not contradicting that or violating it in some way. - Day9 (A New Look at Build Orders) Podcast Transcript
hes using it correctly build orders are a template for certain builds to get to an optimal point. Just because Day[9] wrote that doesnt mean that hes the biblical reference of what it is, that is just his vision.
|
On November 13 2015 11:45 OhThatDang wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2015 11:30 EJK wrote:Im sorry but I have to call you out. You are using the word "build" incorrectly. let’s ask the question “What is a build order?” A build order is an optimization of an idea. That is it’s the best possible way to do some thing. Now, I do mean idea in as broad a sense as possible. An idea could be something as simple as, “Hey, if I have +1 upgrade for my zealots for attack they can kill a zergling in two hits.” And we have a lot of builds that now revolve around getting that upgrade very quickly. Or a terran player might say, “Wow, zergs really like mutalisks and lurkers against me. Maybe I can try to kill them before even gets his lair tech going.” Now all of a sudden we have bunker rushes and fast tank pushes being motivated from this idea. Your idea could be something tactical, like “Wow, this bridge is very narrow, I bet if I controlled this my opponent would have a very hard time breaking out this front.” This is a great motivator for a huge number of builds. And although it sounds a little vague a build is an optimization of an idea, I want to use that definition because it is very important that I keep referring back to my initial idea. And make sure that I’m not contradicting that or violating it in some way. - Day9 (A New Look at Build Orders) Podcast Transcript hes using it correctly build orders are a template for certain builds to get to an optimal point. Just because Day[9] wrote that doesnt mean that hes the biblical reference of what it is, that is just his vision.
yes, to get to an optimal point but....for what? When you have a 'build', the word usually implies you are building towards something. In this case, there is a part missing about the idea you are trying to optimally reach.
Also I'm not using it as a bible by any means. I challenge someone to make a better definition (i tried and couldn't)
|
So after about 75 games or so, here's my general game plan for each of the matchups-
TvZ: SCV Scout* ->Reaper FE -> Third -> Hellion Banshee** -> 5 Rax (1TL 4 Reactor) -> Double Ebay -> 4th CC -> 3 more rax (1 Reactor 2 TL) -> Ghost Production***
*You have to scout and if you scout 1 base ravager or 1 base baneling you have to go 1 base banshee or 1 base reactor hellion, there's really no other way to hold these IMO.
**Against 2 base muta you need to swap the starport onto the reactor and make 4 Liberators and an Ebay, otherwise the mutas will pin you in your base for so long Zerg can easily get tier 3.
***You need pre-emptive ghosts or like 2x his army supply to have a chance vs Ultras, a Liberator transition (2x Starport, 1 Reactor 1 TL, and fusion core) could probably work too but I find that Vipers / Corruptors wreck high numbers of Liberators and you need like 10+ to have a chance vs Ultralisks. If you only have a couple they can a move through them or go around.
TvP: SCV Scout -> CC first -> 3 Rax* -> 3rd CC -> Starport** -> 2 more rax -> 4th CC + 2 more starports** + fusion core -> 3 rax -> mass CC
*You can actually hold most pushes with just 3 rax infrastructure, once you have like 7-8 marines you can easily take on an adept of 2 if you micro well. You should figure out where the first 2 pylons are with your SCV scout and spend your first scan to figure out what tech he's going for and react accordingly, grabbing an Ebay vs DT / Oracle.
**I usually only make ~6 medivacs (and remake them if I lose them) before going into Liberator production. You really need 6 gas to get enough Liberators to make it worth it IMO, 1-4 Liberators are a joke for stalkers to blink around or into and kill but once you hit that magic 10+ protoss tears abound.
TvP has completely switch from HotS IMO where now it's Protoss's job to do damage to Terran before they can afford that critical mass of liberators. Even if you take some damage from warp prism / oracle / stalker harass you should be fine, just play really defensively until you get your critical mass of Liberators. The hardest thing to hold will be mid game Blink Stalker / Disruptor pushes, I'll even make upwards of 5 bunkers vs them. Also make lots of Turrets after you've established your third to prevent Warp Prism harass.
TvT: Honestly I just wing this MU, there's too variation in openings for me to have figured out anything solid yet and not a whole lot of Terran's playing. I play marine / tank and my general gameplan is-
vs Mech: 2 base 5 rax, grab a couple vikings and medivacs and try to doom drop his army (assuming it's tank based), win one big engagement and rally into his production. Failing an opportunity to do that, I'll play a mass expand -> air transition while only getting 2-4 medivacs. Keep making bio since if your opponent pushes out even with a maxed out army a big surround + doom drop can easily win the game, and as teh game drags on your opponent will have to spread out more and take more and more vulnerable bases.
vs Marine / Tank: Just drop everywhere and expand everywhere, my army is usually in 3-5 groups after the early game and I have lone marines spread everywhere. I try to avoid straight up army vs army engagements because I really dislike how they interact now with Tankivacs, but if you do engage straight up keep a 1-2 marines stimmed and ahead of your army, then tankivacs then your marine ball. Scan ahead too, and whenever you see your opponent's army just insta drop your tanks. You need a really good sense of where your advantages are and how to abuse them to be successful because every game you'll be in a different situation.
|
I'm finding TvZ generally pretty straightforward, just difficult. It's the same story of every terran matchup for many years; flimsy early game, strong midgame, kill them quickly. The openings and the flow of the game are relatively similar, I find. It's TvP that's different.
On TvP: are you guys just straight turtling against stalker/disruptor with a quick transition as your third goes up? Because that, to me, seems like it won't be sustainable long-term. Should I be defending solely? Or should I be posturing for map control and denying a fourth base, with some light dropping here and there? (that would seem to mesh more with 8 barracks before liberators.) It feels very weird to me to not be dropping or being aggressive at all, but maybe it's just the way the matchup is now.
|
On November 13 2015 14:15 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
I'm finding TvZ generally pretty straightforward, just difficult. It's the same story of every terran matchup for many years; flimsy early game, strong midgame, kill them quickly. The openings and the flow of the game are relatively similar, I find. It's TvP that's different.
On TvP: are you guys just straight turtling against stalker/disruptor with a quick transition as your third goes up? Because that, to me, seems like it won't be sustainable long-term. Should I be defending solely? Or should I be posturing for map control and denying a fourth base, with some light dropping here and there? (that would seem to mesh more with 8 barracks before liberators.) It feels very weird to me to not be dropping or being aggressive at all, but maybe it's just the way the matchup is now.
I do a pre-medivac stim / cs poke designed to shut down greedy thirds, otherwise pretty much straight turtle into 3 base into 10+ libs. 79% win rate and all of my losses are from before I figured this style out.
|
On November 13 2015 14:31 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2015 14:15 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
I'm finding TvZ generally pretty straightforward, just difficult. It's the same story of every terran matchup for many years; flimsy early game, strong midgame, kill them quickly. The openings and the flow of the game are relatively similar, I find. It's TvP that's different.
On TvP: are you guys just straight turtling against stalker/disruptor with a quick transition as your third goes up? Because that, to me, seems like it won't be sustainable long-term. Should I be defending solely? Or should I be posturing for map control and denying a fourth base, with some light dropping here and there? (that would seem to mesh more with 8 barracks before liberators.) It feels very weird to me to not be dropping or being aggressive at all, but maybe it's just the way the matchup is now. I do a pre-medivac stim / cs poke designed to shut down greedy thirds, otherwise pretty much straight turtle into 3 base into 10+ libs. 79% win rate and all of my losses are from before I figured this style out.
how do you deal with a 2base allin, either mass gateways or disruptor? i assume you can't make a third CC. how many rax before lib production, or are you depending on libs to hold the push? that seems shaky since pre-range and in low numbers they can be picked off by stalkers
|
ok liberator is a cool as fuck unit
anyone have some build orders for all the matchups
|
On November 13 2015 16:59 rauk wrote:
how do you deal with a 2base allin, either mass gateways or disruptor? i assume you can't make a third CC. how many rax before lib production, or are you depending on libs to hold the push? that seems shaky since pre-range and in low numbers they can be picked off by stalkers
On November 13 2015 12:19 Pursuit_ wrote:
TvP: SCV Scout -> CC first -> 3 Rax* -> 3rd CC -> Starport** -> 2 more rax -> 4th CC + 2 more starports** -> 3 rax -> mass CC
*You can actually hold most pushes with just 3 rax infrastructure, once you have like 7-8 marines you can easily take on an adept of 2 if you micro well. You should figure out where the first 2 pylons are with your SCV scout and spend your first scan to figure out what tech he's going for and react accordingly, grabbing an Ebay vs DT / Oracle.
**I usually only make ~6 medivacs (and remake them if I lose them) before going into Liberator production. You really need 6 gas to get enough Liberators to make it worth it IMO, 1-4 Liberators are a joke for stalkers to blink around or into and kill but once you hit that magic 10+ protoss tears abound.
TvP has completely switch from HotS IMO where now it's Protoss's job to do damage to Terran before they can afford that critical mass of liberators. Even if you take some damage from warp prism / oracle / stalker harass you should be fine, just play really defensively until you get your critical mass of Liberators. The hardest thing to hold will be mid game Blink Stalker / Disruptor pushes, I'll even make upwards of 5 bunkers vs them. Also make lots of Turrets after you've established your third to prevent Warp Prism harass.
I've already made my third by the time I see it coming but I don't try landing it until I see Protoss taking their own third, like in HotS how Protoss can sit on 2 base if Terran is trying to do damage on 2 base and be fine, you get to do that now ^.^
edit: I guess I should add that of the 2 extra starports, 1 is reactor 1 is tech lab and I also get a fusion core at this time for the upgrade.
|
On November 13 2015 05:09 Tenks wrote:
To really be safe in TvT are you pretty much forced into 1/1/1?
If you want to be safe, yes, you need a viking asap against fast banshee or drop tank
|
@Pursuit_
Do you stick with bio only if the Zerg is going roach/hydra/lurker?
Do you prioritize the Liberator upgrade or is it unnecessary in TvP?
(edit: NM I re-read the build and saw the fusion core)
|
This doesn't work-mine drops only work if your opponent is bad.
|
Dude necros a three year old thread and doesn't even quote the post he was replying to. SMH 
|
|
|
Northern Ireland25019 Posts
On March 22 2019 21:17 `dunedain wrote:Dude necros a three year old thread and doesn't even quote the post he was replying to. SMH
If you’re going to necro, may as well go full mystifying necro.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
