EPTMarine/Marauder push?
Reapers?
Vultures?
I have been messing around them, maybe vikings?
Keep in mind that the three base gas count means that a flock of 20 mutas is coming and the build response needs some way to deal with that.
[D] Starbow strategy thread - Page 6
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CannonsNCarriers
United States638 Posts
Marine/Marauder push? Reapers? Vultures? I have been messing around them, maybe vikings? Keep in mind that the three base gas count means that a flock of 20 mutas is coming and the build response needs some way to deal with that. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On February 18 2014 18:07 CannonsNCarriers wrote: Q for TvZ: I see my opponent go for 3 hatch before pool, or something close to that on 3 quick bases. What should I build to punish this off 2 bases? Marine/Marauder push? Reapers? Vultures? I have been messing around them, maybe vikings? Keep in mind that the three base gas count means that a flock of 20 mutas is coming and the build response needs some way to deal with that. Deponds on your build. Lets say u go normal eco build 14cc or 1rax FE put 2-3rax before gas with overcharge->marines, move out. Now tho iam not sure u can punish it, but u can atleast make him spend larva on zerglings. Your next push should be marines/medics/2-3bats with stim. And keep hammering Ye, btw if u go mech vults can probably work or atleast be good. 2factory One or two techlab, or combine with 1reactor. mines/speed or only speed, combine with a fastdropship can be good probably Now, not sure u can really punish the zerg but still let him waste larva on units. I think tho when zerg learn how to play against vults he will block it quite easy but hard to say for now One last thing, when u go bio. I think in theory adding a semi-fast dropship can be good because zergs strat evolves around static defence when going 3fast gas. But i need to test that first. Its hard to scout zerg imo, u need that scan upgrade - So when u do scan its pretty to late to react with your tech imo | ||
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itsMAHVELbaybee
292 Posts
On February 18 2014 18:07 CannonsNCarriers wrote: Q for TvZ: I see my opponent go for 3 hatch before pool, or something close to that on 3 quick bases. What should I build to punish this off 2 bases? Marine/Marauder push? Reapers? Vultures? I have been messing around them, maybe vikings? Keep in mind that the three base gas count means that a flock of 20 mutas is coming and the build response needs some way to deal with that. If it is greedy 3 hatch before a pool, with a rax on 11, you should be able to do a bunker rush then. You don't need to do direct damage, just force lings instead of drones, drain energy on queens, and salvage your bunker. For 3 quick bases, vultures with speed will give a big problem for someone who only relies on ling defense and does not simcity their natural to block vulture runbys. A build I like to use is going reaper first, then when your factory is done, swap and do speed + vulture production right away. On maps like Fighting Spirit this is good cause the reaper can harass and scout what tech path zerg is going for, while you can mine the map or harass their 3rd with vultures. I haven't personally tried banshees to try to snipe an early 3rd base, but it should be good if you're good with your micro(cloaking at the right times and running away when necessary) and make sure not get shot down by the queen. | ||
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WarpTV
205 Posts
On February 18 2014 21:17 itsMAHVELbaybee wrote: If it is greedy 3 hatch before a pool, with a rax on 11, you should be able to do a bunker rush then. You don't need to do direct damage, just force lings instead of drones, drain energy on queens, and salvage your bunker. For 3 quick bases, vultures with speed will give a big problem for someone who only relies on ling defense and does not simcity their natural to block vulture runbys. A build I like to use is going reaper first, then when your factory is done, swap and do speed + vulture production right away. On maps like Fighting Spirit this is good cause the reaper can harass and scout what tech path zerg is going for, while you can mine the map or harass their 3rd with vultures. I haven't personally tried banshees to try to snipe an early 3rd base, but it should be good if you're good with your micro(cloaking at the right times and running away when necessary) and make sure not get shot down by the queen. I just harass with 2 reapers and ether force enrages or lings and both ways Zerg loses drones It slows down their tech so hard. Then I do a Quick stim timing and crush something 3rd / nat. 3 medics, 4 Firebats. 6 to 10 marines. | ||
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Daumen
Germany1073 Posts
Whats should the mindset/bo be? Usually i have no chance with mech, mutas just own me (or im stuck on 2 and a half bases). But Bio doesnt defent well vs mutas either, i lose map control and the zerg just takes 2-3 additional bases and I feel like i cant move out because the mutas alone own my army :x | ||
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itsMAHVELbaybee
292 Posts
On February 20 2014 08:17 Daumen wrote: Is it possible to win TvZ atm? Mutas seem so strong, especially when they clump into a 14-20 muta flock :X almost seems like I have to get the new Ghosts now (or early science vessel). Whats should the mindset/bo be? Usually i have no chance with mech, mutas just own me (or im stuck on 2 and a half bases). But Bio doesnt defent well vs mutas either, i lose map control and the zerg just takes 2-3 additional bases and I feel like i cant move out because the mutas alone own my army :x People are still underestimating vikings to an extent. I usually open vultures with speed or mines then get vikings with speed upgrade as I'm expanding. Let's you get some map control with vultures and early vikings take out nearby overlords to prevent scouting. Vikings with speed can handle mutas combined with either goliath or medic/marine. Remember to target fire correctly onto only one muta when engaging. You can also attempt to get really fast +1 weapons which really hurts in straight up fights and allow you to be more aggressive out on the map. | ||
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Daumen
Germany1073 Posts
On February 20 2014 10:37 itsMAHVELbaybee wrote: People are still underestimating vikings to an extent. I usually open vultures with speed or mines then get vikings with speed upgrade as I'm expanding. Let's you get some map control with vultures and early vikings take out nearby overlords to prevent scouting. Vikings with speed can handle mutas combined with either goliath or medic/marine. Remember to target fire correctly onto only one muta when engaging. You can also attempt to get really fast +1 weapons which really hurts in straight up fights and allow you to be more aggressive out on the map. can you elaborate on the BO or give me an example replay? You go Rax FE and tech to starport while staying on 1 Rax? do you build the starport, then expand or expand before Starport? Vikings is actually a great idea, i want to try it (since I hate those overlords that tell my enemy that im moving out). | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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FT.aCt)Sony
United States1047 Posts
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Daumen
Germany1073 Posts
On February 21 2014 05:57 FT.aCt)Sony wrote: Anyone else seeing a slight imbalanced PvT against Mech? in wich favor? | ||
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StaraCroft
Austria292 Posts
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StaraCroft
Austria292 Posts
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
On February 23 2014 00:58 StaraCroft wrote: How are you guys opening in pvz? I'm ~1/15 pvz so far and I'm running out of ideas. When I do the build suggested by OP I get overrun by speedlings usually, but I'll give it some more tries. You have to create a partial wall at your natural using forge and gate. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9366 Posts
On February 23 2014 00:58 StaraCroft wrote: How are you guys opening in pvz? I'm ~1/15 pvz so far and I'm running out of ideas. When I do the build suggested by OP I get overrun by speedlings usually, but I'll give it some more tries. Note, that in the OP i don't "suggest" you do it. I see it more as me coming up with a concept that I want other players to experiment and refine. Its not an easy build to execute by any means, thus I suggest lower level players stick to forge-expand. Anyway, vs speedlings, you always need to have a wall off. So either you leave one zealot behind or you wall off w/ a pylon when you move out. I think on map locations where the zerg can have an ovie above your entrance, you should go for a forgefollow up as it simply becomes too easy for the zerg player to optimize his lingrunby's when he can see exactly when you move out. I don't get a forge normally though as I think heavy gateway production with fast legspeed + blink stalkers can beat most zerg timings. My preferred midgame style post-Stalker buff is Chargelot + Stalker + Archon. Stalkers are incredibly strong IMO if ussed correctly - especially on maps where you can blink into the main. This is a really mobile and fun style and you can add in DT harass and warp prism harass as well. Check out below two replays; http://drop.sc/374620 http://drop.sc/374619 | ||
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GoShox
United States1836 Posts
On February 23 2014 00:58 StaraCroft wrote: How are you guys opening in pvz? I'm ~1/15 pvz so far and I'm running out of ideas. When I do the build suggested by OP I get overrun by speedlings usually, but I'll give it some more tries. Post one of your replays so we can get an idea of what you're doing. The build in the OP isn't bad but you might wanna learn how to fast expand, which is more or less the standard build. | ||
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Fishgle
United States2174 Posts
Not my post, but there's lots of effort put into it so i thought it'd be good to post it here too. What's everyone think of all the builds? | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Against standard play from terran. 12hatch+scout 12pool 18queen 20queen 20hatchery 19Overlord 19Gas drone spince crawler drone When overlord pop, all drones. Keep droning If he havent expanded yet, make an overseer and scout him @100Gas Lair @100Gas speed EDIT: Turns out the build were really bad. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nnGxeV6.jpg) Hey I thought I would share my current ZvZ strat and thoughts with you guys, since it seems to work out decently. (still needs a lot of testing against various stuff, but I'll outline what I do and my thoughtprocess for so long) The 10pool/speed opening: 10pool 10gas 10overlord -->make 6zerglings -->pull out of gas @100gas -->make speed -->make more zerglings -->make queen @150minerals -->make OL ~>squeeze in some drones (if possible) The idea here is to punish a player that goes for a hatch first build. You really don't want to face an opponent that can decide between mutalisks or zerglings off 2bases. Therefore I want to keep the opponent on a low larva/income count, so that he cannot surprise me with a lot of zerglings while I go hydralisks. (basically, if both players have little larva, more larvaefficient units like hydralisks or mutalisks can be used to counter zerglings even if they are not costefficient. Since the opponent cannot spend his money properly on zerglings due to the lack of larva) The macro setup up -->expand @300minerals -->pull back into gas -->get a lair -->get an evolution chamber -->get your second queen -->get a hydralisk den -->saturate your bases (if possible); -->build 1-2 spore crawlers per base (unless no mutalisks are coming) -->@100%lair, get a Viper Nest -->@100%Viper Nest, research abduct -->build hydralisks -->build 1-2Vipers ~>spend your gas on the following things in the given priority: hydralisk speed, +1armor, hydralisk range If you reach this setup without falling behind, I believe you have the strongest position for a macro game possible. How to play a macrogame... ... against mutalisks: try not to take damage in the early game and retain zerglings unless you can trade efficiently (so against more zerglings or drones). You can have spores/queens up to prevent initial damage from the fastest mutalisks. Just micro your queens (targetfire weakened mutalisks!) around a little and your drones if they are not covered by spores. Once hydras/Vipers are out, you can start abducting the mutalisks one by one. Watch out against mass zergling play, so, keep your zergling count up to tank/block for the hydralisks. Use ensnare for any bigger combat, especially vs banelings. ... against hydralisks: In hydra vs hydra battles, you want to ensnare as much as you can and bring zerglings to the party. If you ensnare well, you will win any battle, even if you are behind in upgrades or outnumbered. Don't build roaches (because they get hardcountered by hydralisks). At this point you are playing a mirror match and your basic clues for that should be to get more Hydras/Vipers than your opponent, more bases than your opponent and/or defilers (for plague and Darkswarm). Watch out for enemy Vipers abducting your Vipers or forcing you to fight with ensnare! ... against ling/bling: That's probably the tricky one and I need experience against this myself. I believe that with good ensnares and good splitting/kiting you should be able to win mediumsized combats. For bigger combats I guess you should bring roaches to the party. ... against roaches or ultralisks: Haven't had either of those situations. But basically the hydralisk should hardcounter either. ... against Devourers or Guardians: Haven't had either of those situations. But basically the hydralisk should hardcounter either, and if not, use abduct. | ||
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