DreamHack Winter proved to be one of the more interesting tournaments of the year and put a bow on the DreamHack season. Several clear favorites to win were eliminated in surprising upsets throughout the tournament: the under-appreciated JYP knocked out both Jaedong and Naniwa; and the newcomer Azubu.Patience blew through several SC2 champions including Naniwa, sOs, Polt, MMA, and Innovation. TaeJa proved, however, that he was immune to upsets and tore through the tournament losing only a handful of games and grabbed his second DreamHack win of the year.
Currently on a hot streak, TaeJa has been shredding opposition decisively both mechanically and strategically. When most could not touch him, HerO was the exception. Known to grow stronger as the cold winds of winter blow, HerO was able to stand his own in his series against TaeJa: particularly in the game on Derelict Watcher. In this game, HerO uses brilliant decision making and excellent army control to deflect all of TaeJa's pressure and spar with the titan in a maxed army scenario.
HerO opens, like most Protosses, with a fast expansion while relying on good scouting and positioning to deflect any sorts of aggression. He manages to continually keep himself flexible and adaptable to his opponent's build by scouting at specific divergent points in his build. His scouting is based off of three specific timings:
Initial probe scout on 13;
Stalker poke;
Follow up observer scout.
Probe Scout (2:30)
HerO sends a probe across the map after building a gateway, which arrives at the Terran's expansion by about 2:30. This timing is guaranteed to get into the main base unless the Terran walled off prematurely. HerO checks for a CC first before popping into the main base to check for gas timings. Based on the gas timing, HerO can narrow down the Terran options considerably:
CC first;
1-rax gasless FE;
gas first;
early gas (on 12 or 13) meaning reaper expand, early factory;
delayed gas (on 15) meaning reactor expand;
Proxy rax/cheese.
The gas timing can be checked out simply by clicking on the gas and seeing how much has been mined. Often times Protoss players will also double back around after spotting a 12/13 gas in order to scout the second supply depot: no depot means a reaper expand.
In this particular scenario, HerO scouts no expansion and a late gas; therefore, he knows TaeJa can't have a fast reaper and assumes that TaeJa will expand soon. This means it is safe to take a nexus and no early units are needed to deflect pressure. HerO's scout timing lines up exactly with his gateway finishing at 2:40, allowing him to immediately respond by skipping his cybernetics core, pulling two probes off of gas, and getting his nexus slightly earlier. Against a reaper opening, HerO would probably continue with his normal build to make sure he had a MSC and/or stalker out in time to deal with the reaper.
Stalker Poke
HerO's initial stalker would normally be able to out poke around 5:00. His rearrangement and later cybernetics core, however, makes it so that his initial stalker poke doesn't actually end up arriving until close to 6:15. This is fine because TaeJa can't realistically hit with drops or a marine/mine push until at least 7:00 given his opening. The purpose of this poke is to identify his opponent's composition and spot any signs of pressure. Based on HerO's earlier scouting, there are certain things he is looking for:
1-1-1 with drops incoming;
marine/mine passive play;
marine/tank (unlikely);
1-1-1 with a banshee incoming (very unlikely);
Late reactor hellions (very unlikely).
Luckily, HerO manages to spot TaeJa moving out for aggression with marine/mine. Again, this scout timing lines up beautifully with a divergent point in his build: at 6:30 he can choose to either get extra gateways or be greedier and get his natural gases. After spotting pressure on the way and assuming drops, HerO decides to play more conservatively and get two extra gateways for a total of three. He positions his his stalkers/zealot in the main and his MSC at the natural with nexus cannon: he also rallies an observer to both places. Meanwhile, he sends a probe along the north side of the map to scout spot the area outside his main for drops.
HerO positions himself defensively to deal with drop play.
Once HerO defends the pressure, he immediately starts double forge knowing that TaeJa's medivac aggression will be delayed. To follow up, HerO begins colossus production and blink when he has the resources to do so.
Mid Game Decision-Making (8:30-19:00)
Followup Observer Scout
In the average game, the observer would arrive at around 7:30-8:00 on most maps. Due to TaeJa's aggressive variation, however, HerO is unable to scout with an observer until around 8:30. Taeja's build is also delayed so the observer scout arrives as stim is just starting. This observer is crucial to HerO's game plan as it allows him to scout his opponent's full tech path and check for the third CC timing while adjusting his build accordingly. HerO's observer scouting revolves around three distinct timings:
Initial scout (@7:30-8:00);
Scouting for third CC vs. extra rax (@9:00);
Scouting for third CC again (10:30).
Both players' builds are delayed by about a minute due to TaeJa's aggressive opening. HerO's scout timings, therefore, are adjusted by about a minute: checking at 8:30, 10:00, and 11:30, respectively. The initial scout is primarily to check the Terran's tech, barracks count, add-ons, upgrades, and saturation. Afterward, HerO is looking for an early third CC: an early third CC means that TaeJa's pressure going into the mid game will not be as powerful, but a maxed out timing later in the game can be devastating. This scout timing comes at another divergent point in HerO's build: as he reaches two-base saturation around 9:00, he'll start to pool minerals that can either be spent on three to four additional gateways or a faster nexus. In this game, HerO happens to scout the second starport as well as no third CC, indicating a two-base all-in with several vikings. HerO also notices that TaeJa isn't committing with his drops but instead saving as many units as possible and just trying out exploit HerO's positioning: this is another indication that TaeJa may be going for a two-base play. To respond, HerO cuts his upgrades, delays his third, and heads into storm much faster. The third observer scout timing is generally to check for a third CC again in games where barracks number four and five are added first. With his final scout, HerO sees no third CC still, confirming that TaeJa is fully committed to a two-base attack.
HerO holds his natural against TaeJa's sharp timing.
Realizing this position, HerO continues to warp in gateway units constantly while further delaying the third. When the aggression hits, he pulls his army all the way back in his natural and holds out for storm as long as possible while also hallucinating a colossus to draw some viking fire. In the end, his decision to cut upgrades and focus purely on unit production allows him to smash TaeJa's timing, despite not actually having storm for the engagement. With excellent scouting and preparation from as far back as 8:30, HerO is able to deflect the attack and head into the later parts of the mid game.
Transitioning
After his failed aggression, TaeJa begins to power back up by starting +2/+2, a third CC, and emphasizing medivac production. HerO is able to identify TaeJa's transition period by progressively poking out further and further with his main army and gauging the size of his opponent's army. During this time period, HerO is forced to play very conservatively due to his lack of observers: he is unable to spot the middle of the map, possible drop locations, or the location of the third baseall at once. Once he can comfortably control the area between his natural and third, he starts single upgrades and a third base and sends a zealot to spot TaeJa's pocket expansion.
After a handful of engagements, HerO manages to reach a maxed-out army consisting of mostly zealots and stalkers with a number of high-energy templar and two colossus. HerO pushes out across the map with this force in an attempt to gain map control and take his fourth. When he feels comfortable on three bases, he starts double upgrades again and begins to actively trade zealots as much as possible. To defend from drops, HerO uses a few well-placed cannons, a handful of zealots, and a few templar positioned in his main and third base.
It's important to note that HerO is looking to gain map control but not commit to a direct engagement at this stage of the game. He can always trade zealots by engaging then pulling back behind storms or by splitting off zealots for harassment, but he wants to retain his stalker and colossus count. His overall goal is to use his large army -- with both templar and colossi -- to secure a fourth base while making it much harder for the Terran to take his fourth.
Controlling a Maxed Army (19:00-End Game)
The late game can be difficult for a variety of reasons. One of the top issues for players in the late game is maxed army control, especially in lower leagues. Luckily, HerO puts on a workshop for army control in this game. The main points of HerO's army control is highlighted in a number of ways:
the way he splits his army up;
the usage of taking an aggressive stance and retreating;
how he uses positioning to flank with storm.
Part 1: How to split up your army
The way a player hotkeys units is defined by how they effectively want to split up their units. HerO splits his army so that each piece is fully functional and easy to access in a big battle:
HerO's army in hotkeys.
HerO groups his army into three hotkeys: Colossus/zealot/sentry, blink stalkers, and high templar. This allows him to independently move his army pieces around with ease and also gives him access to each important unit and their ability: blink, guardian shield, and storms.
In addition to his hotkey setup, HerO has very particular positioning when moving his army around. He endeavors to always keep his stalkers out in front poaching for vikings and ghosts. If the Terran player attempts to rush up with his bio army -- or flank with vikings -- HerO can quickly blink back and avoid any losses. This not only gives HerO the opportunity to pick off units for free, but also gives him extended vision in front of his army.
Behind his stalkers, HerO keeps his colossi, zealots, and sentries grouped together. It makes sense to group these units together as the zealots protect the colossi and the sentries are always close to the zealots when using guardian shield. This split is essentially the meaty, “a-move” portion of HerO's army which he uses mainly to threaten a direct engagement, and the force whittling down his opponent with blink stalkers and storms. Occasionally, he will split off zealots to attack undefended expansions or to spot in areas where he lacks vision.
The final hotkey grouping is high templar. This is a more obvious choice as high templar are much more vulnerable, move more slowly than the rest of the army, and need fast access to in order to storm properly. HerO keeps his templar back behind the main bulk of his army most of the time, protecting them from almost all danger.
Part 2: Taking an aggressive stance
HerO excels in placing his units aggressively. He generally does so for map control and vision, but rarely actually engages in a direct fight. By setting his units in a forward position, he is able to threaten his opponent and force a certain type of response while using harassment tools to whittle down his opponent. This allows him freedom to take extra bases and gives him a lot more room against a maxed out Terran push with lots of ghosts and vikings.
HerO pushes forward with his army, then runs behind storm as the Terran attempts to engage.
In this game, HerO pushes all the way up to TaeJa's base to lock down map control. He takes a free fourth behind this and splits off some zealots to hit TaeJa's economy while he's out of position. Once TaeJa amasses a healthy number of ghosts and vikings, however, HerO is no longer able to directly engage and must take chip away at TaeJa's army before attempting to take it on. Fortunately, the map control HerO has allows him plenty of time and space to retreat and pick off units with stalkers and storm. TaeJa takes almost no damage while crossing the map due to his excellent army control, but most lesser players would lose quite a lot.
Part 3: Storm Flanks
HerO's army retreats from the front of TaeJa's base, all the way back to the pocket of his own third sniping units and landing storms wherever possible. While TaeJa manages to avoid taking any damage moving across the map, HerO still has a healthy number of storms at his disposal and uses brilliant positioning to make sure they all land. By pulling all the way back, HerO creates a natural concave and forces TaeJa's ghosts out of position.
HerO's concave makes it impossible for TaeJa to spot every incoming storm
The first storms land as HerO retreats over his templar into the third base. The second wave of storms hits TaeJa's army from the south while TaeJa is distracted at HerO's front. Identifying that TaeJa's ghosts were all pressuring the army at the third, HerO sends templar from his natural expansion in the north for the final, devastating storms. With almost no army left and no fourth expansion, TaeJa is forced to tap out. In the event that the storms hadn't been that devastating, they would have at least brought the Terran army low enough to allow HerO's main army to directly engage.
Conclusion
The red mist descends and fellow Terrans mourn their fallen comrades.
All in all, HerO's win was a mixture of three key components: a flexible build that allowed him to adjust to TaeJa; a series of good scout timings decision making in the mid game; and excellent maxed army control. Together, all of these components to supplied HerO with a collection of small advantages which eventually tipped the final engagement in his favor. By shutting down all of TaeJa's attacks and using his army control to be maintain cost efficiency, HerO never gave TaeJa an edge and was able to slowly force his marginal advantages into a huge lead in order to take the game. HerO's emphasis on aggressive scouting with his army offered him tons of map control and a position which in turn forced TaeJa to play more cautiously and allowed HerO to land amazing storms in the late game to take a game off of arguably the best Terran vs. Protoss player in the world.
HerO is a glacier; sometimes it takes time for him to get going, but good luck stopping that overwhelming wall of ice when he does. I feel like that same overpowering force doesn't quite get to show what it can truly do at all times, though.
This was a fantastic series to watch, and although I love TaeJa, HerO is still my boy.
On January 16 2014 03:57 lopido wrote: why this tpic comes 3 month after the game ? Anyway HerO plays sometimes like a beast than throw games left and right.
Because its not about when its released, its about the content. Also, the meta hasn't changed at all PvT so not a big deal still a good game and still has many lessons for the protoss players out there.
Both hero and taeja are on liquid, is it possible to get them to talk like 2 paragraphs each at the end of the article about their thoughts on the game and why they did what.
On January 16 2014 11:28 Shock710 wrote: Both hero and taeja are on liquid, is it possible to get them to talk like 2 paragraphs each at the end of the article about their thoughts on the game and why they did what.
Very cool idea for the future! Though unfortunately no one our current team can do korean translation or interviews and its been a while. Maybe once we get better at these analyses if there is a particularly good match with a liquid player in the future and we crank it out quicker we can get their thoughts.
On January 16 2014 11:28 Shock710 wrote: Both hero and taeja are on liquid, is it possible to get them to talk like 2 paragraphs each at the end of the article about their thoughts on the game and why they did what.
Very cool idea for the future! Though unfortunately no one our current team can do korean translation or interviews and its been a while. Maybe once we get better at these analyses if there is a particularly good match with a liquid player in the future and we crank it out quicker we can get their thoughts.
Shouldnt be hard to just borrow some korean speakers from the other staff groups
I just watched that game and, as a Terran player, I was not really impressed with HerO's play. He barely managed to win that game and mostly just won because of the flank storms right at the end. If not for about 3 storms in the last 30 seconds of the game, TaeJa was completely dominating him. HerO threw away tons of Templar for free (pack of 3 HTs wandering in front of the army, lol?) and wasted about 5 or 6 storms on less than 3 bio units. There were other storms that TaeJa just managed to mitigate the damage with splitting, but there were times where HerO just stormed 3 units.
I guess it was a decent example of how to play, but I think most of that game just came down to the architecture of the third base on Derelict Watcher. Just overall not incredibly impressed by HerO's play in the late game, other than the last 3 storms of the game (which aren't even caught by the observer in the VOD).
How is being a base up and having an army that can take fights being dominated? Storming few units is up to Taeja's control mostly, not HerO's. HerO uses storms to safely retreat and reposition. If Taeja dodges them then that's good for him but the main purpose of those storms is never to get crucial hits in the first place, it's to allow him to safely retreat. Those three high templar wandering off was probably the biggest mistake he made in otherwise amazingly played game.
Maybe protoss isn't as easy to play against terran as people keep saying.
On January 16 2014 23:06 DarkLordOlli wrote: How is being a base up and having an army that can take fights being dominated? Storming few units is up to Taeja's control mostly, not HerO's. HerO uses storms to safely retreat and reposition. If Taeja dodges them then that's good for him but the main purpose of those storms is never to get crucial hits in the first place, it's to allow him to safely retreat. Those three high templar wandering off was probably the biggest mistake he made in otherwise amazingly played game.
Maybe protoss isn't as easy to play against terran as people keep saying.
He was only up a base for a short time. I don't know how recently you watched the game, but HerO's storm control was pretty dismal for a while. He just missed storms or would move command his HTs into drops and then would have to use a storm to try and save them. By the way, that game was nowhere near perfect. TaeJa didn't start his +1 attack until 10:00 and he was still ahead in upgrades for the entire game. It is embarrassing to be behind on upgrades against a Terran. He also only made 2 observers and was lucky that TaeJa didn't try to just cloak his ghosts and kill his entire army earlier. HerO never replaced his sniped observer and just relied on storm flanks to manage to survive that portion of the game.
I understand that HerO played well, but you guys are massively overstating how he played. Yes, it was pretty good. He had some nice storms at the end and did a decent job with his late game army control (nowhere near perfect though). He had his zelaots so far ahead of the rest of his army during engagements that TaeJa would just kite the Zealots and have vikings take pot shots at the colossi. There was also a very lucky instance where HerO blinked forward and completely missed every viking. He almost got all of his blink stalkers killed by TaeJa's bio, which would have left him open to an attack. TaeJa's ghost/viking control is god-like and he would've easily stomped over HerO's army now that it had no anti-air save a few storms.
I watched it yesterday. High templar don't get warped in and storm immediately. Using feedback against two medivacs (which I suppose is what you're referring to) is not effective. He was waiting for his zealots to tank enough so that the templar got enough energy to storm. He was ahead in upgrades because his army was still strong enough to contain HerO on Derelict Watcher and protoss things are expensive. HerO can't keep up colossus, templar AND upgrade production. Taeja's third CC was so late that HerO has to keep producing units though and that's where he has to cut upgrades for a while (when he only upgrades +2 armor). That's alright for him though because his army is stronger techwise which means he can move out and take map control once he's set up to defend against drops. That map control allows him to rather quickly take a 4th base as well. When Taeja started pushing him back, that 4th base had been up for long enough to allow HerO's upgrades to catch back up as well as sustain colossus and templar production at the same time. HIs zealots being kited is not bad for him. He's so zealot heavy (necessary from earlier in the game to break Taeja's contain) that he has to get rid of them slowly. This is the best way to do it. He uses storms to zone out Taeja's army when he tries to pursue after HerO trades a few zealots. Again -> storms are meant to keep the army away, not to kill it. Vikings got shots off at colossi, yes. But that was due to map architecture and good movement by Taeja (who just so happens to have the best lategame TvP control out of anyone) so yeah, that does happen. When HerO blinked "forward", he was trying to zone the vikings and there was nothing there to attack the stalkers anyway, which HerO was aware of because he knew where Taeja's army was. You're also forgetting that Taeja was essentially all in with his move forward because he was on three bases with his main mined out and HerO was on 4 bases. HerO did a great job delaying him long enough to set up the templar flanks that he then executes perfectly to win the game.
"It is embarrassing to be behind a terran in upgrades" is a simply silly statement that completely ignores how the game went up to the point where he's behind in upgrades.
"It is embarrassing to be behind a terran in upgrades" is a simply silly statement that completely ignores how the game went up to the point where he's behind in upgrades.
Not really. He had the chance several times to get ahead on upgrades. He just simply never put enough chronoboost into his upgrades to get ahead on them.
Anyway, I'm not going to convince you that HerO didn't play immaculately. In my opinion, he only won because of the last 3 storms at the end of the game. One could make the argument that it takes a ton of skill to make it to that point against a player like TaeJa, but I just wasn't that impressed with his late game play. It seems TaeJa was playing sloppily at the end of the game and just wasn't paying attention to his army as closely as he should have. It's fine if you think that HerO played "perfectly," but his control was nowhere near perfect. I didn't see PartinG or Rain level storms and he just looked like he got a little lucky at the end of the game. All that really matters at the end is who wins, but I just don't think HerO got there in the cleanest way possible. It was not a domineering game where he made TaeJa look like a scrub, such as Dear did. It was not a creative game where he used mind games a-la sOs to make TaeJa look baffled, and he didn't have super crisp execution like PartinG or Rain to get an advantage. He had pretty good decision making in the mid game and had a nice defense of TaeJa's 2 base pressure, but I think going into the late game they were very even until the last 3 storms.
I just explained to you why HerO was behind in upgrades. It was a decision to delay his upgrades in favor of a stronger army which he needed to take his third base safely so that he could THEN continue to upgrade his army and take an economic lead that he turned into a simple win at the end with precise storm flanks. It was a great game.
Ugh, reading this just makes me realize how utterly terrible I am at this game. If you made Taeja and HerO drone pilot commanders, they could end the Taliban in like 2 days.
On January 17 2014 00:35 DarkLordOlli wrote: You remember what happened to Rain, do you?
I just explained to you why HerO was behind in upgrades. It was a decision to delay his upgrades in favor of a stronger army which he needed to take his third base safely so that he could THEN continue to upgrade his army and take an economic lead that he turned into a simple win at the end with precise storm flanks. It was a great game.
Don't worry about him Olli, just another terran that can't see a good game in front of them because of how mad they are about storm.
On January 17 2014 00:35 DarkLordOlli wrote: You remember what happened to Rain, do you?
I just explained to you why HerO was behind in upgrades. It was a decision to delay his upgrades in favor of a stronger army which he needed to take his third base safely so that he could THEN continue to upgrade his army and take an economic lead that he turned into a simple win at the end with precise storm flanks. It was a great game.
Don't worry about him Olli, just another terran that can't see a good game in front of them because of how mad they are about storm.
The amount of blind QQ from Terrans right now has made me actually stop watching SC2 for the first time since release
On January 17 2014 00:35 DarkLordOlli wrote: You remember what happened to Rain, do you?
I just explained to you why HerO was behind in upgrades. It was a decision to delay his upgrades in favor of a stronger army which he needed to take his third base safely so that he could THEN continue to upgrade his army and take an economic lead that he turned into a simple win at the end with precise storm flanks. It was a great game.
Don't worry about him Olli, just another terran that can't see a good game in front of them because of how mad they are about storm.
The last storms were actually sooooooo much worse then you think, the observer missed half of them
On January 17 2014 00:35 DarkLordOlli wrote: You remember what happened to Rain, do you?
I just explained to you why HerO was behind in upgrades. It was a decision to delay his upgrades in favor of a stronger army which he needed to take his third base safely so that he could THEN continue to upgrade his army and take an economic lead that he turned into a simple win at the end with precise storm flanks. It was a great game.
Don't worry about him Olli, just another terran that can't see a good game in front of them because of how mad they are about storm.
Right...
I quit the game several months ago. I enjoy watching some SC2 games because they are fun. That game was not that good and I would consider it highly overrated even. There was no tension, the observer literally missed the entire last 30 seconds of the game (where TaeJa actually loses because of flanking templars) and there just wasn't that much back and forth action.
I'm not even going to get into the argument about "blind Terran QQ." You guys are being ridiculous if you think Terrans are just blindly QQing and that SC2 is fun to watch anymore. I don't understand why if I say that HerO's play wasn't that amazing that game and he won because of 3 storms, not like that's even an exaggeration, you guys get all upset and then accuse me of blindly QQing. I think you Protoss players are getting so insecure that if we even say something so much as that we don't enjoy watching Protoss matchups or think that a Protoss player didn't play as well as everyone thinks he did, we're automatically QQing.
I never even once said how I feel about the matchup. No reason to be so abrasive.
On January 17 2014 00:35 DarkLordOlli wrote: You remember what happened to Rain, do you?
I just explained to you why HerO was behind in upgrades. It was a decision to delay his upgrades in favor of a stronger army which he needed to take his third base safely so that he could THEN continue to upgrade his army and take an economic lead that he turned into a simple win at the end with precise storm flanks. It was a great game.
Don't worry about him Olli, just another terran that can't see a good game in front of them because of how mad they are about storm.
Right...
I quit the game several months ago. I enjoy watching some SC2 games because they are fun. That game was not that good and I would consider it highly overrated even. There was no tension, the observer literally missed the entire last 30 seconds of the game (where TaeJa actually loses because of flanking templars) and there just wasn't that much back and forth action.
I'm not even going to get into the argument about "blind Terran QQ." You guys are being ridiculous if you think Terrans are just blindly QQing and that SC2 is fun to watch anymore. I don't understand why if I say that HerO's play wasn't that amazing that game and he won because of 3 storms, not like that's even an exaggeration, you guys get all upset and then accuse me of blindly QQing. I think you Protoss players are getting so insecure that if we even say something so much as that we don't enjoy watching Protoss matchups or think that a Protoss player didn't play as well as everyone thinks he did, we're automatically QQing.
I never even once said how I feel about the matchup. No reason to be so abrasive.
Well we're just saying that even though there is an entire article and multiple posts from Olli explaining why he won that game, you still say he only won because of the storms at the end.
Sure that's why the game ended at the exact moment that it did, but it wasn't the whole reason why he won the game.
Not to mention that SC2John isn't affiliated with TeamLiquid and this is just one of many articles he's been kind enough to pump out for scrubs like me to learn from.
Well we're just saying that even though there is an entire article and multiple posts from Olli explaining why he won that game, you still say he only won because of the storms at the end.
Great, Olli has explained why he didn't die. If you read what I wrote, you'd know that he was in fact, behind at that point in the game. He had his army cornered at his third, blanketed by EMPs, and was in an incredibly shitty position. He managed to get 3 storms off that killed > 50 supply of TaeJa's army, putting him ahead. As soon as TaeJa noticed how much of his army got stormed, he GG'd.
And then there's also the part where you say it was perfect play from HerO, when I've already demonstrated multiple times that it was not even close to perfect play. His storms were beyond subpar save the last 3 storms of the game, and his late game army control was pretty lackluster. He managed to make up for it with those last 3 amazing flank storms, but really HerO's late game control, upgrading (even when he had his upgrades going in the late game he continually forgot to chronoboost them which is a big deal considering he was behind on his 3-3 which should, as I said, NEVER happen).
Claiming that was perfect play is not only diminishing what truly perfect play is, it's being blind to how he really played. The mid game was basically inconsequential on how the game played out in the end. Even though at the very end of the game TaeJa had a bigger army and was poised to take a 4th and kill HerO's army, those last few storms ended it right then and there. Without those storms (if the Templar had been in HerO's main army) HerO would have died. End of story. But that didn't happen, so it doesn't really matter. Whatever though, this is just a waste of my time to argue with you guys since we're going to always disagree on the matter.
Well we're just saying that even though there is an entire article and multiple posts from Olli explaining why he won that game, you still say he only won because of the storms at the end.
Great, Olli has explained why he didn't die. If you read what I wrote, you'd know that he was in fact, behind at that point in the game. He had his army cornered at his third, blanketed by EMPs, and was in an incredibly shitty position. He managed to get 3 storms off that killed > 50 supply of TaeJa's army, putting him ahead. As soon as TaeJa noticed how much of his army got stormed, he GG'd.
And then there's also the part where you say it was perfect play from HerO, when I've already demonstrated multiple times that it was not even close to perfect play. His storms were beyond subpar save the last 3 storms of the game, and his late game army control was pretty lackluster. He managed to make up for it with those last 3 amazing flank storms, but really HerO's late game control, upgrading (even when he had his upgrades going in the late game he continually forgot to chronoboost them which is a big deal considering he was behind on his 3-3 which should, as I said, NEVER happen).
Claiming that was perfect play is not only diminishing what truly perfect play is, it's being blind to how he really played. The mid game was basically inconsequential on how the game played out in the end. Even though at the very end of the game TaeJa had a bigger army and was poised to take a 4th and kill HerO's army, those last few storms ended it right then and there. Without those storms (if the Templar had been in HerO's main army) HerO would have died. End of story. But that didn't happen, so it doesn't really matter. Whatever though, this is just a waste of my time to argue with you guys since we're going to always disagree on the matter.
Great, Olli has explained why he didn't die. If you read what I wrote, you'd know that he was in fact, behind at that point in the game.
He wasn't behind. He was ahead in every aspect except one - Taeja's army could still take fights. Those storm flanks were the last piece of the puzzle.
I explained why he was behind on upgrades a few times, "should never happen" is the same silly statement it was before. The game demanded it to happen. Had he gone for continued upgrades then his third base would have been denied forever and Taeja would have been given a much easier way back into the game. After that he chronoboosted the hell out of his upgrades. When Taeja attacked him at the end, HerO was only one attack upgrade behind Taeja. That's completely fine considering he's got a much better economy and all he has to do is kill Taeja's army once - which he does. His lategame army control was great to accomplish what he wanted. Which, AGAIN, is not to kill Taeja's entire army in a head on fight or snipe every viking with storms or blink stalkers. That's a bonus that Taeja shouldn't allow (and doesn't). All HerO wants to do is delay Taeja for as long as possible to buy time for his upgrades and his templar flank to be set up.
Saying that the midgame was inconsequential is plain wrong, it's the biggest and most important aspect of this game that you keep ignoring. It's the reason why HerO's upgrades were late, it's the reason why Taeja's economy is worse and it's the reason why HerO is out on the map aggressively and doing all that storm zoning, etc.
Taeja hit a very very aggressive 2base mass viking/bio timing that other terrans would probably pull SCVs with. HerO defended but Taeja pulled out while his army was still strong enough to abuse the map and threaten drops, form concaves in the open field between natural and third if HerO moves out. So imagine if HerO starts 2/2 right away. Those upgrades do NOTHING for him until they're finished, Taeja gets a third base up and HerO can't break out because Taeja's army could still trade well against his. So what does HerO do? He opts to delay upgrades, continues colossus/templar production to move out and take that third base. Taeja has a decent army so he starts a third CC and continues upgrading while threatening drops to keep HerO pinned back. Once HerO stabilizes he moves out - by that time his upgrades are behind but his third base is up unchallenged, his army has stronger tech to its disposal (storms and colossi to keep Taeja from engaging) and HerO uses that semi-contain to take a 4th base while Taeja can't. HerO has that contain up for so long that Taeja is forced to attack him. HerO uses him army as aggressively as possible to delay Taeja's push because HerO gets ahead more with every second that passes (he catches up in upgrades, additional production from his 4th base kicks in, templar flanks are set up and gaining energy). Taeja eventually manages to push HerO back to his base where HerO takes a defensive position.
That's when the storm flanks come in and Taeja dies. Now tell me what exactly HerO could have done better except for those 3 high templar that randomly wandered off and didn't matter in the end.
On January 17 2014 08:41 MtlGuitarist97 wrote: Without those storms (if the Templar had been in HerO's main army) HerO would have died. End of story. But that didn't happen, so it doesn't really matter. Whatever though, this is just a waste of my time to argue with you guys since we're going to always disagree on the matter.
What sort of statement is that. Similarly you could say without the emps the game would have been blah blah blah. Or without marines the game would have been blah.
I would argue that it was the early and mid game decision making that made hero's game incredible. I wouldn't mind seeing this from the terran perspective mind you i.e. what decisions the terran made based on the flow of the game. e.g. saw X opening from toss therefore did Y because of blah blah. The analysis does have a tendency to make it look like terran does whatever they want and it's up to protoss to adapt.
Well we're just saying that even though there is an entire article and multiple posts from Olli explaining why he won that game, you still say he only won because of the storms at the end.
Great, Olli has explained why he didn't die. If you read what I wrote, you'd know that he was in fact, behind at that point in the game. He had his army cornered at his third, blanketed by EMPs, and was in an incredibly shitty position. He managed to get 3 storms off that killed > 50 supply of TaeJa's army, putting him ahead. As soon as TaeJa noticed how much of his army got stormed, he GG'd.
And then there's also the part where you say it was perfect play from HerO, when I've already demonstrated multiple times that it was not even close to perfect play. His storms were beyond subpar save the last 3 storms of the game, and his late game army control was pretty lackluster. He managed to make up for it with those last 3 amazing flank storms, but really HerO's late game control, upgrading (even when he had his upgrades going in the late game he continually forgot to chronoboost them which is a big deal considering he was behind on his 3-3 which should, as I said, NEVER happen).
Claiming that was perfect play is not only diminishing what truly perfect play is, it's being blind to how he really played. The mid game was basically inconsequential on how the game played out in the end. Even though at the very end of the game TaeJa had a bigger army and was poised to take a 4th and kill HerO's army, those last few storms ended it right then and there. Without those storms (if the Templar had been in HerO's main army) HerO would have died. End of story. But that didn't happen, so it doesn't really matter. Whatever though, this is just a waste of my time to argue with you guys since we're going to always disagree on the matter.
Blue hammer post incomingggggg!!!!!
Okay, so first off, this game looks really straightforward and pretty simple: TaeJa does some aggression, HerO deflects it; TaeJa does a massive 2-base attack which HerO defends quite well; HerO takes a 3rd base while attempting to not die to mass MMM; HerO lands huge storms and completely annihilates TaeJa's army. I understand how you can look at this game and think there's nothing special about it. But that's why we do analysis; we're looking for deep, clever decision-making. Everything from HerO using his first stalker to poke the natural to his army movement in the late game all pave a clear path to a singular idea, a strategic goal.
As stated in the conclusion, HerO's goal this game was to combine a series of marginal advantages into a big win. TaeJa played incredibly well and should have won like 4 times lol, but HerO's solid scouting and proper responses completely shut down TaeJa's pressure and allowed him to accrue a bunch of small advantages. Specific examples: TaeJa kills ONE probe with his marine/mine drop pressure; TaeJa's 2-base "all-in" attack gets denied with almost equal trades (had storm been finished in time, it would have been a massacre); HerO is able to get a 4th base up safely while denying TaeJa from getting his; finally, HerO manages to beat TaeJa's army (even without INSANE storms, he was already really far ahead at this point). The storms at the end were merely the tipping point of HerO's advantages which turned into a decided lead. You are wrong.
The missed storms you refer to are storms which only a god like TaeJa could have dodged. Like, literally, they were the most fucking incredibly impossible storm dodges ever. The fact that TaeJa takes no damage while crossing the map is a testament to his sheer skill in maxed army control. As far as upgrades go, HerO cut his upgrades after 1-1 to get storm faster to deal with TaeJa's 2-base "all-in". Due to his unfortunate lack of observers, he had to play more conservatively and intelligently chose to delay going back into double upgrades in case TaeJa continued to pressure with his ~100 supply army. Continuing double upgrades would have definitely been a mistake and would have led to death. You are wrong.
As for the final storms...I don't think you understand PvT at all. In order to beat a huge terran army like that, Protoss needs to land a few decent storms to soften the army before attacking into it. In 2011, this was less necessary because Protoss was ALWAYS ahead by at least one upgrade. However, in the land of the present, if the Protoss tries to amove into a Terran army with ghosts, they're gonna get slaughtered. The fact that the storms were game-ending were fortunate, but the way in which HerO set up his storm flanks and intentionally drew the ghosts out of position was no matter of "luck". Even if the storms had been decent, but not killed all of TaeJa's army, HerO could then engage the weakened army with his main army and still come out with a huge lead (being already one base ahead). I want to re-iterate that HerO was not "cornered" in his base, but chose a specific place for his army to sit to draw the ghosts out of position and set up a natural concave for his templar flanks. Read the article again if you're unsure what I'm talking about. HerO was up one base and in every other way, even with TaeJa at the end of the game; the way he dealt with TaeJa's maxed out push with ghosts was calculated -- from the way he drew his army all the way back to how he landed his storm flanks -- and designed to further his advantages in the game. You, sir, are wrong.
Bottom line: It is moronic to say that HerO played horribly and just "got lucky" at the end. That's gold level analysis and probably where you belong.
Whatever, I'm not even going to bother arguing anymore; it's a waste of my time.
Also, I may as well note that I not once said that I thought HerO played badly; just that he didn't play nearly as well as the article makes it out to be. He played nowhere near perfectly (throwing away 3 HTs for nothing, having way too few observers, taking pot shots on his colossi constantly) and it's ridiculous that you guys exaggerate it that heavily. I'm also much better than gold league, but it doesn't really matter to me how you guys view my skill; it's basically irrelevant to the point and it's hilarious that you resort to calling me a gold league Terran despite having literally zero information about me.
And you're still wrong about the storms at the end being the "tipping point." They were literally the fucking deciding factor in the game. Had he not split his army like that, he would've died. He didn't have enough observers and if TaeJa had just engaged his army straight up it would've been game. It was a smart tactic, but it was a last resort. TaeJa just didn't watch his army anywhere near as closely as he should've and that's why he lost. I think it was more a blunder on his end than a genius move on HerO's part, but alas, you can't dodge every storm.`
I didn't read all the post/comments, bur I agree with what MtlGuitarist97 said :D Taeja was leading the whole game. You can argue that hero couldn't do anything but defend during the middle game, that he did a perfect decision making, still he never went into a position where he could have been dangerous for Taeja. If Taeja hadn't lost that much army at the end of the game on thoses storms, the game would probably have continued, it was b4 vs b4, with even tech and upgrades. Be honest guys, or just listen to the casters on the vod, they were giving an advantage to Teaja and were a bit shocked when he typed gg.
This was quite a lengthy, verbose write-up for a rather mundane PvT. Still, the game is a great example of how late-game army control is so damn important; check your corners for templar, or pay the price...
rofl @ the big bold-font blueposter personal attack
On January 17 2014 08:41 MtlGuitarist97 wrote: Without those storms (if the Templar had been in HerO's main army) HerO would have died. End of story. But that didn't happen, so it doesn't really matter. Whatever though, this is just a waste of my time to argue with you guys since we're going to always disagree on the matter.
What sort of statement is that. Similarly you could say without the emps the game would have been blah blah blah. Or without marines the game would have been blah.
I would argue that it was the early and mid game decision making that made hero's game incredible. I wouldn't mind seeing this from the terran perspective mind you i.e. what decisions the terran made based on the flow of the game. e.g. saw X opening from toss therefore did Y because of blah blah. The analysis does have a tendency to make it look like terran does whatever they want and it's up to protoss to adapt.
It was definitely a beautiful game from the Terran perspective too. I ALMOST thought about doing a followup article from TaeJa's perspective, but I figured that might be a little overboard. It was just so freaking incredible to watch how all of his pressure built on top of each other in what seemed like seamless transitions. TaeJa's 2-base "all-in" attack would have outright won him the game versus anything else; in the end, he still hit right before storm was finished, traded decently, and was able to start a 3rd CC and 2-2 immediately after 1-1 finished. It was beautiful.
Anyone who doesn't see the beauty in this game really needs to go back and watch from an analysis perspective. People looking at it from viewer perspective are not going to think it's interesting or "inspired" or whatever, but there is so much going on under the surface here. I cannot overstate how thin HerO's advantages were that slowly turned into a decisive lead. I personally learned a lot from writing the article and I think there's a lot of game-winning information in here.
Had he not split his army like that, he would've died.
So what you're saying is that Hero's split prevented him from dying? Sounds like good decision making to me.
He didn't have enough observers and if TaeJa had just engaged his army straight up it would've been game.
But he didn't do that. The fact that Taeja could never engage Hero straight up was strategy on Hero's part.
Here are some other meaningless statements: Had Hero not defended Taeja's 1st drop he would have died. Had Taeja eaten some rough storms when Hero was containing him he would have died. Had Taeja not retreated before storm finished on his 2 base push he would have died.
Thinking about the game in that way is just not useful. If that's the way you think then reading game analysis is not for you.
How retarted that people think Hero got lucky. Taeja did a two base all in and failed because Hero scouted well like you're supposed to. And MtlGuitarist, just from reading your analysis it's enough to notice your level of understanding of the game. I wouldn't say you are gold level player, but I'm sure you're not masters or gm.
EPT
HerO 
Replay
VOD
