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Hi Guys,
My question is do you think random pays off in SC2 in terms of in game advantage since the opponent doesn't know what race you are from the beginning? I mean lets exclude the fun part of playing random, does random helps you to win a game?
Why I am asking this? I came from broodwar (main Terran in both games) and remember how much I was freaking out when I played against random there, should I go gas, should I go 1 barrack or 2 barracks, should I close my entrance etc., if you did not manage to scout him early enough each of the early decisions you take might cost you the game.
However, in SC2 I feel no pressure at all when I see random, sometimes I can even late scout after barrack and I don't have the feeling that I am behind at all. No matter if I decide to go 1 gas, 2 gas builds, fast expands it works pretty much exactly the same, regardless of what race the other guy is playing. I mean late scout can cost me the game coz of some kind of cheese, but this is not related to the fact that he is random.
Going deeper I am pretty sure that for Protoss players also don't matter if the enemy is random, you will surely find out what is his race before the cybernetic is done, so this leaves to only Zerg players fearing random eventually, I am not sure how this is working there at all, but it looks that maybe it matters if you have to ZvZ or ZvT/P.
So? Does Random values at all, besides the fun of playing it? What do you think?
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when you're equally good with all races, random will probably of advantage. but you're most likely not. and it might hinder your progression cause you'll have 3 races to master.
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i think that if you said that playing random is better because your opponent doesn't know your race is not accurate because you split your time into all 3 races. if you heavily analyzed your replays then maybe
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Certain cheeses are really strong against certain races when one player doesn't know what race the other person is. That's pretty much the only advantage that random gives you in ladder games.
As a Terran, you should be scared of 8-rax-reaper cheese if your opponent rolls T. Also, in some matchups, you don't want to wall in, while in others, you do. If you don't wall and your opponent is Z, early pools can be really effective. If you wall, and your opponent is Terran, there are some early pressures that are very effective.
As a Protoss, it's better than it was in WoL, since FFE isn't the only build that you can do against Z. That said, expansion builds are still very different depending on which race you're facing, so Protoss players have a harder time.
As a Zerg player, it's frustrating not knowing whether or not you should go hatch first. You can pretty easily be 6-10 pooled by a Z, cannon rushed by a P, or even 2-raxed from a T.
In tournaments, playing random can make preparing for you very difficult, though that's really only applicable for high-level games. It's so difficult to get to "high-level" with all 3 races that we still haven't really seen any random players perform really well. Gumiho used to play random, but now he sticks to T. I think that Super (used to be known as Vampire) played Random in some GSTL match as well, but those are the only Korean random players that I can think of.
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All other things being equal, yes. A ZvR means the Z cannot safely hatch first, which is a big advantage if you roll T. Same for CC first for T, wasted effort on walling the main, etc.
The problem is that all other things will never likely be equal.
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No guys, I think you did not understand me, I know what are the disadvantages of playing random and I don't plan to do it anyway. I just noticed that playing random in SC2 does not give you any advantage at all, my opinion at least and I wanted to check if I am right.
For example in broodwar if you play protoss vs random its a fukin huge deal if the other guy is zerg or protoss/terran so you fear random and it gives early advantage to the randomer. if you are zerg its completely different how to open vs another zerg or protoss and even terran, so facing random is scary if you cannot scout him fast enough. Same goes if you play terran. However, in SC2 (As i described in the topic question) I dont think it is scary at all what the randomer player race really is. Even if you find it a bit late it doesn't affect your builds too much and doesn't put in you in disadvantage, so random in SC2 does not pay in terms of providing any advantage. But again this is my opinion and I wanna discuss it and check it here.
edit. TheSambassador kind of answered my question. but he still talks about cheeses which can happen even if you know your opponent race, so I am not sure it is fully relevant to the question
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I have 1 build for each match-up and all builds have different gas opening. So basically when i am getting to play vs random who doesn't like to tell me his race... i get quite mad, it probably my fault for being such inflexible, but hell i am doing same builds since hots out and i am still screwing them up frequently. and learning new builds/opening just for the sake of meeting a random player feels weak and a waste of time.
nowadays i m just sending 8 scv scout, if i still not catching his race in time i am just doing reaper expand. and more or like freestyling into failure my loss.
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hmmm I think you are kinda right.
playing random doesn't really give you any advantage, you can try to skip scouting to play a bit more risky and put more pressure onto him to do an earlier scout, but that's about it I guess.
I pretty much play my standard opening for all my matchups against random:
If i am T, I go reaper expand
If i am Z, I go 15 hatch 15 pool and scout around 16 drone
If i am P, I go Msc expand but only after my probe scout confirm I can safely expand
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United States4883 Posts
On September 17 2013 23:48 fdsdfg wrote:
All other things being equal, yes. A ZvR means the Z cannot safely hatch first, which is a big advantage if you roll T. Same for CC first for T, wasted effort on walling the main, etc.
The problem is that all other things will never likely be equal.
False. Zerg can go hatch first in ZvP as long as they leave an overlord and a drone at the expansion to protect it (in case of a cannon rush). Likewise, hatch first is totally viable in ZvZ. T can go CC first in every matchup (it's actually the standard in 2/3 matchups)...the only thing CC first has a really hard time defending is 2-rax reaper or some cheeses.
Like Sambassador said, it's really only cheeses that are bothersome, most of which can be avoided by good scouting and good responses. So yeah, Random in SC2 is not really an advantage unless you want to go troll people with cheeses. When I play random, I just tell my opponent my race because it just doesn't matter and I'd rather they played a normal game.
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I don't think people actually get what you're talking about here.
Like you, I also played Terran in BW and I was also scared shitless of playing against random because of the reasons you mentioned. The openings were vastly different, and if you happened to open with an early gas against r-Zerg for example you'd be very far behind, or not walling off against r-Protoss could mean instant death vs a single Dragoon.
Anyway, as far as being Terran (don't know about the other races) in SC2 I'm not scared of Random either. In 4 player maps what I usually do is open with a 12rax/12gas into Reaper to scout for cheese and proceed as normal, my opening changes a little bit (ie 12/12 instead of 15cc TvZ), but it isn't much of a problem. Against Random on 2 player maps I do proxy 2 rax and I don't remember ever losing like this.
So no, at least vs Terran, being random won't bring you any big advantage. Expect to be cheesed and play cautiously (or cheese back) and you're fine.
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ZvX isn't a big deal. I hatch first against random, and drone scout to know when I should take my gas. I don't normally drone scout except vT, and I don't normally hatch first vP, but I prefer a cannon rush to having to pool first in the other match-ups. Plus, on two player maps, my drone often runs into a scouting probe off an FFE before I throw down the hatch.
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if you cheese every game then yes. 
i actually dont see the reason for playing random and not telling the oponent your race.
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It's no advantage really. You can 15 hatch against P if you look for a cannon rush, also 14 pool does't harm you (see Tefel). Walling vs T is no disadventage at all, pros do it often in TvT. As P you will see the oponents race before your core finishes. Unfortunetely people dont understand this and cheese randoms a lot (which dies miserably) cause "they can't play their standard build". And btw - plaese, for the love of God - stop scouting at 6 supply! xD
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On September 17 2013 23:48 fdsdfg wrote:
All other things being equal, yes. A ZvR means the Z cannot safely hatch first, which is a big advantage if you roll T. Same for CC first for T, wasted effort on walling the main, etc.
The problem is that all other things will never likely be equal.
A ZvR doesn't matter at all, as you should 10scout anyway, and scouting on 10 on 2player maps (4players should be vetoed anyway, especially because early scouting issues) means you will arrive in time to either throw down a hatch or a pool on exactly 15 supply depending on what you see.
Seeing said Terran, you can even 3 hatch before pool and take or not take a gas depending on his build.
Not scouting on 10 is ONLY excusable in GM league where you have to edge out even those lost minerals and play halfway gambling to even stand a chance. And even they scout on 10 on a regular basis.
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Honestly I've seen a couple good random players but my thoughts are as this. Random is difficult in any league and Most People that play a single race usually have a hard time in one or match up than others.... why may you ask? Simply because timings reactions and how you play in each match up changes. MOST, I say MOST because I'm sure there are like 1 or 2 random pro players, pro players play 1 race because its very hard to master every match up. Even if you are decent in every match up think about the time spent learning all the match ups that could have been spent learning 3 match ups instead of 9.
That being said there are advantages in-game on certain levels that give you an advantage when going random if you do not call out your race. IMO these advantages do not outweigh the advantage of Picking one race and learning it and practicing it as much as you can.
Things that can take a while to learn is Marine Shoot timing stimmed and unstimmed to studder step correctly... How to make correct judgment calls when looking at your army and seeing their army and deciding whether to engage or WHAT the best way to engage is. The speed of your army vses your opponent's army and where you can take advantages on certain maps with your army over theirs.
How to scout and what you are looking for in each match up..... I mean the list goes on and on so my straight opinion is I would go random if you are vsing someone that you know isn't as good as you to level the playing field helping a friend. For a serious contender pick a race you feel suits you and learn it
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Random eventually gives you a deeper understanding of all the matchups.
I had to switch to Terran for a little because my pvt was so bad, and once i got a feel for Terran limitations, i switched back and my pvt was way way better.
Playing all races allows you to know your opponent better because you've been in their position before, you know what they can and cannot have at x time
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your opponent not knowing or supposedly not knowing what race you are playing is advantageous. playing poorly with that race is disadvantageous.
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basically the econ opening is total fucking ass 1/3rd of the time for every race. it's not difficult to understand. do you want a nexus first vs protoss?
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it's also, like, bad to be predictable.
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scouting is easy, that 2minute advantage of your opponent not knowing what your race is, is mostly irrelevant.
however playing random for a while will obviously help you understand the other races and helps you once you've made back your switch to a main race.
staying random however won't help you much as you will need to put in 3x the effort any player can put in a single race.
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EPT
