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Italy12246 Posts
Disclaimer: while this guide isn't very serious, this build is actually a very strong push, especially in Bo1 ladder format. It just so happens that i also find this build awesome and fucking hilarious.
Intro
Oh PvZ all-ins, how we love thee. Since, well, forever, Protoss players have had a plethora of strong, annoying and abusive 2 base pushes that caused Z's to ragequit, whine and bm over and over again until it stopped being funny, and let's face it, to this day it's still funny. See my signature.
The famous SoulTrain, or Immortal all-in was the strongest and most popular among these builds, but with HotS and the so very, very sad removal of Ohana from map pools it doesn't see as much use as during the final months of WoL. I personally just LOVE the sound of roaches dieing to Immortal fire and the following ragequits, so i decided to find similar ways to kill Zergs.
Thankfully, Naniwa gave us all the answer during this last Dreamhack, coming up with arguably the manliest build PvZ all-in yet. Cut (almost) every corner imaginable early game, cut out that forcefield micro crap and just do it the MANLY way: kill him with freakin zealots, dudes so manly they can blow tanks up and cut armor open and shit by using blades made with their freaking minds. And Immortals of course, can't forget the Immortals.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/I1bhmEu.jpg) Oh Reach. I hope i'm making you proud.
Build Order
Here's the build order. Note that this is pretty risky and map dependant: you want to use this build only on maps with a natural that can be partially walled by two large buildings and an (eventual) extra pylon like on Planet S. Finally, don't bother scouting with this build on a 2 player map; core scout on a 4 player map. Scouting is for pussies anyway, plus you are 2base allining off one gas. So fuck safety (i told you this buid is manly!).
- 9 Pylon
- 13 Gate
- 14 Gas
- 16 Pylon
- 18 Core
- 21 Zealot. Make this in case of an early pool and cancel it right before it completes if no zerglings run for your base
- 21 Nexus
- 22 Warpgate
- 22 Mothership Core
- 24 Pylon at natural to start your wall off.
- 27 Robo in the main
- 27 Forge to start your wall
- 28 Gateway
- 28 Zealot
- 37 Cannon for safety
- @100% Forge: +1 Weapons
- @100% Robo: Warp Prism, then 2x Immortals (you don't have the gas to get the immortals faster)
- As the second immortal is started (around 50 food): 5 extra gates
- Cut probes at 36
- Chrono usage: first 5 on the Nexus, rest on the robo.
The cannon at the front is quite useful seeing as you have no (almost) units, and it doesn't really delay or weaken your push so might as well get it; additionally it defends against eventual counters. Note how you are doing all of this off a single gas, which means you can't afford many gas units outside of the msc and immortals for a long time.
As soon as your second immortal finishes pick both up in the warp prism, fully wall your natural and move out with the zealot, warp prism and msc. One nice thing is that it's impossible for the zerg to delay your push, as all your units will be flying at this point.
It's vital to delay scouting, and against both TLO and Leenock Naniwa used a nexus cannon to deny the spotting of the extra gates. If you can, try to build them in a hidden location in your main as usual.
The Push
You should be doing your first round of extra zealots right before 9 minutes and pushing immediately. Your priorities while microing are, in order:
1) Keep your warp prism alive away from queens and spores, it's your only way to reinforce.
2) Land a timewarp or your zealots will just get kited to death.
3) Focus immortals on spines/roaches, don't waste shots on lings.
4) Warp prism micro as necessary.
5) Keep warping in manlots until he dies (you wont because Protoss is bullshit).
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fLvkivq.jpg) We call this "zealoting your opponent". Terrans know what i'm talking about
The difference between this build and it's older brother, the Soultrain, is obviously trading sentries and forcefields for a much faster push. Note that since you won't have any probes with you, it's mandatory to keep your warp prism alive. Other than that it's a fairly straightforward strategy: hit your timing well, warp things in and amove all over him. Happy ManTraining!
Vods and FAQ
1) What if the Zerg is doing all-in X?
Well tough shit you have almost no units. You should treat this situation like you would with FFE: add cannons, stay walled off, defend with nexus cannon. You won't have enough gas to warp in many sentries, so get your wall and cannons up asap.
2) What if the Zerg is teching to whatever?
If he's teching your push should do critical damage, because he won't have the unit count to hold off your attack. Just warp in stalkers to clean up the (eventual) mutas and add a few cannons back home. He won't get swarm hosts in time. If he has a spine wall, just elevator in his main.
3) But Roaches destroy zealots!
Between time warp, immortals and overwhelming numbers, manlots actually kill roaches, which is nice. And very painful when you are on the receiving end of it.
4) What about banelings?
Channel your inner MKP (actually MC, MKP plays that other bad race) and split your shit. If you can, try to have the immortals tanking, it takes like 15 (i think) banes to kill a single immortal. Besides, who the hell goes ling baneling anyway?
Vods:
http://www.twitch.tv/dreamhacktv/b/396294648?t=2h02m00s vs TLO
http://www.twitch.tv/dreamhacktv/b/396294648?t=12h40m00s vs Leenock
edit: replays!Naniwa vs Hyun http://drop.sc/336162 Naniwa vs Yugioh http://drop.sc/344420
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Canada13389 Posts
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I'm gonna go spread my manliness all over the ladder now.
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Haha I love this guide. But as a zerg, I never felt that this push was very strong against any kind of roach defense. It's more of a timing to kill your opponent while he is teching.
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As a zerg, how do I know this is coming, and what is a good response to it?
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I will use this one a lot. Time to bring some zerg tears!
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Italy12246 Posts
On May 26 2013 05:47 Zheryn wrote:
As a zerg, how do I know this is coming, and what is a good response to it?
Make tons of shit more than anything. You can see it coming because the p has an insanely fast robo and only one gas.
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Only did this to two zergs so far, executed sloppy as fuck both times and still ripped shit. Thanks. Ill make this a staple <3
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Teoita is all hopped up on testosterone... I dig it. Good guide.
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this build made my day rofl
Edit#2: nvm i can't read
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One problem I have with the Nexus cannon to deny scouting is that this is the only build I've ever seen do it. So, wouldn't me using the Nexus cannon on their overlord already tell a skilled Zerg everything they need to know?
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I dont understand why naniwa doesnt just warp in in the opponent's main, I've been doing this for quite a while it's pretty good, but if zergs read it it's very easy to counter, sometimes i get there and zergs just have sooooooo many roaches i cant win
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United Kingdom20286 Posts
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United States7483 Posts
Now if only I can figure out a way to work +1 armor into the push too, without really delaying it. Then I can really have MANLOTS.
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United States7483 Posts
On May 26 2013 10:09 Salivanth wrote:
One problem I have with the Nexus cannon to deny scouting is that this is the only build I've ever seen do it. So, wouldn't me using the Nexus cannon on their overlord already tell a skilled Zerg everything they need to know?
Not necessarily, he doesn't really have any way of knowing that you aren't hiding something else entirely. I've popped the cannon to hide DT's before.
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haha i love the way this guide is written another pvz all in to the arsenal
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Also, this one was much more entertaining...
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True. Also, considering that Immortals are returned Zealots, it really is the Manlot all-in!
Zealots: cutting up stuff in your face style since 1998.
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I did this a couple of times on ladder, executing it as bad as possible, not even following a BO, (remembered a caster saying +1 zealot immortal with 1 gas) and im something like 5/1 with it. And wow, this build makes people rage :D.
Only time i lost my robo got scouted really really early (neo planet s) and the Zerg gibbed me with ling hydra.
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On May 26 2013 05:18 Kommatiazo wrote:
I'm gonna go spread my manliness all over the ladder now.
That sounded so wrong in so many ways :/
How does this fare against leenock mode that scouts this incoming? Wont you be crushed?
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Italy12246 Posts
What do you mean by leenock mode?
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On May 26 2013 19:09 Teoita wrote:
What do you mean by leenock mode?
Leenock sometimes get overlord speed very fast in PvZ, in order to get good scouting.
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Italy12246 Posts
Ah, i have no idea about that. I dont think it would be too useful though, since you move out at around 7:30 with this push. I don't think OL speed would allow the Z to get a scout off much faster than that.
In general you are right, if Z sees this coming and makes an appropriate amount of drones (in the low 40's is my guess) before pumping units, he can crush your push if he executes correctly.
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Good guide. Had used it before based off the daily day9 did of when Naniwa used it, but this re-affirmed my knowledge of it and provided a very crisp, and instructional guide. Very good!
I am having good success with it since reading this.
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After re-reading the whole thread, I had to laugh so hard. Damn, this one is so well written.
By the way: Can you do this push on every map? Or do you recommend it on smaller maps?
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Italy12246 Posts
I recommend doing it on naturals that are easily walled. Rush distances aren't as big of a deal since when you push all you have is flying units.
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On May 26 2013 22:30 Teoita wrote:
I recommend doing it on naturals that are easily walled. Rush distances aren't as big of a deal since when you push all you have is flying units.
Nice, thanks a lot. Time to crush some Zergs with hardcore manly all-ins! HA!
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I got so damn mad last night because every Protoss did this and I had 0% win rate in ZvP. So yes, I can confirm the lethality of this build with rage meter in the upwards of 8/10.
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All the rage this build induces
It sustains me.
Thanks for this :D
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sigh been mixing this in for like 2-3 weeks lol. nooo now its gonna be more known T_T haha but good job on guide
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hah! another variation to my non stop zealot spree. I've been using the other one with only zealots in 8-9 gates. Also I would have +1/+1 eventually. From a 4 gate warp prism to a 8-9 gate (props to some master poster weeks ago). Also I make gradually up to 2-3 prisms. in a prism you can also add a probe inside so you would be dropping him inside making a pylon somewhere hidden as well.
Panic trick: after warping a round of zealots move the prism to another location shift E and warp in to the nat/main depends who's hit first. To add to the hysteria, incoming prisms.
What joy! I never felt happiness in a trolling way. Banana smiles always.
Here's what I have as a rage sampler fresh from the oven!
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7oyJ9EO.jpg)
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On May 28 2013 03:18 woreyour wrote:hah! another variation to my non stop zealot spree. I've been using the other one with only zealots in 8-9 gates. Also I would have +1/+1 eventually. From a 4 gate warp prism to a 8-9 gate (props to some master poster weeks ago). Also I make gradually up to 2-3 prisms. in a prism you can also add a probe inside so you would be dropping him inside making a pylon somewhere hidden as well. Panic trick: after warping a round of zealots move the prism to another location shift E and warp in to the nat/main depends who's hit first. To add to the hysteria, incoming prisms. What joy! I never felt happiness in a trolling way. Banana smiles always. Here's what I have as a rage sampler fresh from the oven!
Is the other one you were talking about some kind of weird dance party variation?
I wonder how much more effective the old Zealot Dance Party from WoL after an FE would be just by adding MSC. MSC slows roaches and stops them from kiting endlessly by using its ranged attacked. You'd have to harvest 100 more gas, but small price to pay for what it offers to the rush.
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On May 28 2013 03:30 SteveNick wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 03:18 woreyour wrote:hah! another variation to my non stop zealot spree. I've been using the other one with only zealots in 8-9 gates. Also I would have +1/+1 eventually. From a 4 gate warp prism to a 8-9 gate (props to some master poster weeks ago). Also I make gradually up to 2-3 prisms. in a prism you can also add a probe inside so you would be dropping him inside making a pylon somewhere hidden as well. Panic trick: after warping a round of zealots move the prism to another location shift E and warp in to the nat/main depends who's hit first. To add to the hysteria, incoming prisms. What joy! I never felt happiness in a trolling way. Banana smiles always. Here's what I have as a rage sampler fresh from the oven! Is the other one you were talking about some kind of weird dance party variation? I wonder how much more effective the old Zealot Dance Party from WoL after an FE would be just by adding MSC. MSC slows roaches and stops them from kiting endlessly by using its ranged attacked. You'd have to harvest 100 more gas, but small price to pay for what it offers to the rush.
I was talking about this:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=412284
i tried this too and it is very effective, like smaller margin of losing but I think the all zealots one is faster. With this one I had an opponent having hydras and roaches and +1/+1 but still he lost. I think the zealot one would depend on the money time warp of roaches and this one just down right kills him + time warp = WIN! I am not sure if mutas could stop this thou.. maybe but you can still damage him hard and you just make 2 cannons in each expo.
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I just got Man-Trained >_<
Almost held it, but eventually it was just too manly to hold and zealots just did a hard train on me....
Even killed the immortals...but then in came beastly stalker warpins !
I feel so abused
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Very creepy photomontage :D
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I think to beat this you need :
- 2 queens ready to focus fire the Warpprism
- Banelings to bust the zealot wall
- Tons of roaches
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On May 28 2013 05:37 Insoleet wrote:
I think to beat this you need :
- 2 queens ready to focus fire the Warpprism
- Banelings to bust the zealot wall
- Tons of roaches
I think if you actually make banes roaches really arn't necessery? ling bane probably work better then roach bane
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On May 28 2013 05:26 Nayman wrote:
I just got Man-Trained >_<
Almost held it, but eventually it was just too manly to hold and zealots just did a hard train on me....
Even killed the immortals...but then in came beastly stalker warpins !
I feel so abused
Ur opponents name wasnt "Opmc HighEX" by any chance?
Cause while doing this build today i lost my 2 immortals really early and thaught the game was lost, warped in couple of stalkers and the Zealots still did the trick.
Even with loosing the immortals, this is still some brutal timing...
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I do not see this working at all against muta builds. Zergs can go greedy mutas on 2-base and squeeze out 6 - 8 mutas by 9 minutes, which is roughly when the first warp-in of zealots hit the zerg. If you don't see the mutas and you warp-in all zealots, well tough luck as he can just snipe the prism and then the immortals to clean-up.
I feel this hits only about 1 min earlier than the PartinG 3-immortal all in with a bunch of sentries, which is more powerful and more flexible.
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i guess this guide is the reason some zergs blind counters my 3 gate robo push ( 2x immortal 6x zealot ) into 7 gate robo allin .wich is somehow the same just i do a timing before allining that sometimes it wins the game or force some zerlings . the hardest counter i found so far was a guy who sit on 2 base with like 15 spines and teched to mutas . ( i'm high master europe )  nice guide btw !
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Italy12246 Posts
On May 28 2013 07:52 LOLZEY wrote:
I do not see this working at all against muta builds. Zergs can go greedy mutas on 2-base and squeeze out 6 - 8 mutas by 9 minutes, which is roughly when the first warp-in of zealots hit the zerg. If you don't see the mutas and you warp-in all zealots, well tough luck as he can just snipe the prism and then the immortals to clean-up.
I feel this hits only about 1 min earlier than the PartinG 3-immortal all in with a bunch of sentries, which is more powerful and more flexible.
In both of the vods, Naniwa kills 2base muta.
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Austria24417 Posts
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2 base all ins off of 1 gas are the manliest thing out there. Good job Teoita.
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i love being a man. muscle fucking build. this should hopefully boost my 30% win rate in PvZ
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Can someone post some replays of this?
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wow I can't believe how hilarious this guide and equally so insightful. You must make more of these, please? Non of those boring stuff.
I read it twice and it still makes me chuckle all by myself here at the office.
Btw with no scouting as scouting are for pussies, how would you deal with delayed 4-6 lings if you cancel the 1st zealot or 2?
What I usually do in 2 player maps is to scout with the gateway probe and see the path if no lings I cancel the 1st manlot. This is just to get a faster nexus @ 23 probably. Do I cut probes on 21? and usually I make 2 manlot guards just in case he makes 6-8 lings while I churn the msc
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Italy12246 Posts
Against 10pool you are fucked (learnt this the hard way in a cw lol), especially if he goes speed. Against 14 pool your msc pops in time and you should be fine with some probe micro.
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On May 28 2013 17:30 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 07:52 LOLZEY wrote:
I do not see this working at all against muta builds. Zergs can go greedy mutas on 2-base and squeeze out 6 - 8 mutas by 9 minutes, which is roughly when the first warp-in of zealots hit the zerg. If you don't see the mutas and you warp-in all zealots, well tough luck as he can just snipe the prism and then the immortals to clean-up.
I feel this hits only about 1 min earlier than the PartinG 3-immortal all in with a bunch of sentries, which is more powerful and more flexible.
In both of the vods, Naniwa kills 2base muta.
In TLO vs Naniwa, TLO goes for a baneling nest early on which delays his spire significantly. His mutas pop out at 9:30 and he also took a 3rd base, which limited his muta count. If TLO went straight greedy mutas with 3 spines at his natural, he would have at least 5 out by 9 min if not earlier and be able to snipe the prism.
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On May 28 2013 21:43 Tuczniak wrote:
Can someone post some replays of this?
Here is moi being sloppy against a master player (i'm just freaking plat) but still managed to "manhandle" with manlots all over his creep realm. I was fucking horrible with my micro as I was about to pee, i just swarmed him my dudes.
The big mistake was not having to wall off with my 3 buildings and my fucking rally was so bad I rallied 10 probes to my geyser. This is so manly even with my mistakes it still raped.
http://drop.sc/338578
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I scouted it and was like: "meh, spam spines, get some roaches, easy"...nope. Seems like the proper way to stop this is to 6-10pool, lol
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Number of times used: 5
Number of times opponent rage quits: 5 
Ty sir!
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So in comparison to Parting's immortal/sentry all-in:
15 second earlier push out
+1 armor not finished
1 less immortal
Fewer probes
How is this build better exactly? PartinG's build could probably match his move out time by simply cutting an immortal while still having everything else be better than Naniwa's build.
I was thinking about this ever since JayPower's +1 warp prism 5gate came out. A gate-core build should be able to give you a faster time, so why are the results from builds like this one so poor? When you go for such an early mothership core, you kill the initiative from the early money boost and faster core. If you want to take advantage of a gate-core expand while doing any build other than a 4-gate follow-up or a pre-warp gate push, you have to get rid of that early mothership core, so you can keep up probe production. Problem is, I think that Mothership Core is critical for defending 13/14 pool pushes that hit before your wall finishes, so it seems like lose-lose. You might be okay by getting a sentry or stalker instead but might not.
And against a 10 pool, you should come out roughly even by switching to a 2/3-gate expand if you either scout it and don't cancel the zealot, or just always make the zealot every time. I think Naniwa only does this build as an alternative to his main when his opponents are expecting his 4-gate.
I've been playing around with gate-core expand a bit, and I really want to like it, but I'm just not sold. I feel like I either have to leave holes in my build for my opponent to exploit or play from behind.
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Can i ask how many gate in natural? 2?
@24 Pylon at natural to start your wall off with 2 Gate?
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if this comes to be patched:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=414801
I wonder how big this would affect this whole strat. How many zergs will start crying for nerf?
The day9 daily 858 also explained the timings very well.
This 1 gate expand is pretty much a good standard opener against zerg which could lead to many strats(4gate / prism zealot / 2base colo).
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Funny that using build from 1st post i won with master level toss while im gold.
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How close to the nexus the scouting overlord must get to be 100% sure nexus cannon kills it?
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For fun I tried this against a diamond terran on ladder, and actually won :p. Fun build!
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When doing this vs terran isnt better to warpin as many as possible stalers and rest fill with lots? In time put 2nd gas and try to warpin more stalers?
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Isnt advantage to warp in inside base and skip bunkers? Just asking. You skip all static defense/wall line.
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Italy12246 Posts
It's not just you, any allin vs Terran except blink does.
Also this is a PvZ build, don't try this in PvT.
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I heard Artosis talking about a variation of this build on Meta episode 5(very recent) where you do the standard 21 expo with 1 gas, then you get MSC, warpgate, then wall off your nat with robo/gateway. Add 1 more gateway, then attack with 2 immortals/whatever you can get off your 3 gateways(like 6 zealots when you move out, 9 if you warp in off a proxy pylon when you get to their base).
I just did this build and won pretty easily against a 2 base Zerg trying to defend with speedlings while going muta. I added in more gates while pushing out at 7 minutes. Super early push where you get to their base with 6 zealots and 2 immortals, and I rallied a warp prism to support(already had proxy pylons warping in units also) I rolled over him pretty easy.
Difference of the build is it hits earlier, focusing on getting 2 immortals and moving out asap. You skip the forge and the +1 in favour of using that 250/100 for an earlier push. I'm thinking that the robo wall off could be too obvious of a tell if this build gains popularity though. You have to get it with your first 100 gas after warpgate/MSC so it's super early. So when the Zerg sees you going 1gate with a super fast robo off 1 gas it's a pretty clear all in.
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Haven't lost to this once - When I scout protoss has a single gas I throw down my baneling nest and shit banelings all over the zealots. Toss has no way to clean creep either so my banelings will actually be quite fast. Just gotta make sure you don't waste them on the immortals.
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On May 29 2013 14:03 FlyingBeer wrote:
So in comparison to Parting's immortal/sentry all-in:
15 second earlier push out
Fewer probes
Nani's build pushes out at ~8:10, Parting's pushes out at around 9:30... That's 80 seconds earlier. And you should have 32 probes on minerals (16 per mineral line), which is the same as the soul train, except the soul train has 9 more probes on gas (4 gas, to get sentries).
On May 29 2013 14:03 FlyingBeer wrote:
How is this build better exactly? PartinG's build could probably match his move out time by simply cutting an immortal while still having everything else be better than Naniwa's build.
Because at ~8:30-8:50 when the build hits (depending on map distance), the Zerg really shouldn't have too much to defend.
On May 29 2013 14:03 FlyingBeer wrote:
I was thinking about this ever since JayPower's +1 warp prism 5gate came out. A gate-core build should be able to give you a faster time, so why are the results from builds like this one so poor? When you go for such an early mothership core, you kill the initiative from the early money boost and faster core. If you want to take advantage of a gate-core expand while doing any build other than a 4-gate follow-up or a pre-warp gate push, you have to get rid of that early mothership core, so you can keep up probe production. Problem is, I think that Mothership Core is critical for defending 13/14 pool pushes that hit before your wall finishes, so it seems like lose-lose. You might be okay by getting a sentry or stalker instead but might not.
Early MSC --> photon overcharge
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Can't wait to try this out and play toss the right way the manly way.
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ITT: No skill terribad protoss's that refuse to say anything about counters to this scrub build.
Protoss players = bad as fvck at this game and have to resort to playing an ezmode no skill race. Quit life plz.
Zerg > You
User was banned for this post.
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On May 30 2013 09:11 iratelivid wrote:
ITT: No skill terribad protoss's that refuse to say anything about counters to this scrub build.
Protoss players = bad as fvck at this game and have to resort to playing an ezmode no skill race. Quit life plz.
Zerg > You
lel
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What is your people's hall of fame for number of immortal kills so far? I've reached over 20 with both immortals in a few games now. It is pretty funny.
The idea behind build is so much fun. I've been having trouble in PvZ so I've been doing this and even if I lose I still have fun. Immortal/warp prism micro is really fun to do.
Also, as seen above, it makes Zergs rage really hard so that is a definite bonus.
Here's a replay from when I was just experimenting with the idea a bit so I didn't follow the build but kept to the idea of ferrying immortals around in a warp prism. I didn't follow the standard build even close (I just did the immortal sentry build but cut more corners. Went nexus first) but the rage quit from the Zerg is well worth it. You will see why he did (hint: immortals kill buildings really fast).
http://drop.sc/339046
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Teo thank you, this is the perfect answer for the flood of kittens photos in the net, manly protosses are rising.
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With the free prism speed upgrade, I'm wondering if it'll become possible to swap the order of immortals and prism construction ( prism last, catching up with the army ), and attack 30s earlier ? Just an idea.
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Italy12246 Posts
No, you don't have enough gas when the robo completes to make an immortal instead of a prism.
Also when you move out you have a grand total of one zealot and two immortals. That's not an army that should be walking around the map, you need the prism to carry and protect the immortals.
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Hey do you think its worth it to get out 1-2 stalkers to deny overlord scouting? This build seems kinda easy to defend against (just make more lings and spines than your zealots) and I think it will be worth it to trade 30-50 second delay for denying that overlord.
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Getting any stalkers would delay the push by a great deal, either by having to take a 2nd gas or just outright limiting your gas income too much.
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On May 30 2013 09:11 iratelivid wrote:
ITT: No skill terribad protoss's that refuse to say anything about counters to this scrub build.
Protoss players = bad as fvck at this game and have to resort to playing an ezmode no skill race. Quit life plz.
Zerg > You
User was banned for this post.
Haha, someone was rolled by a man train, I guess.
I also fear that denying overlord scouts is the greatest weakness of this build. Usually, you don't want to use photon overcharges to kill overlords. And as said before: You cannot afford stalkers, they delay the push to hard.
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So far out of 6 won games doing this, 4 have had the Zerg raging at the end. It's so amazing! The best part is how badly it demolishes Zergs cutting corners or doing risky builds(going for super fast spire or infestation pit).
Haven't had this much fun in PvZ in a long time. It's fun to have a micro-heavy style rather than my usual macro style.
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So I've tried this four times on ladder yesterday and out of those four times the zerg used early speedling attacks or a bling bust to kill me before my push. In other vZ games where I didn't go for this build and normal scouting I didn't meet a single zerg trying a ling all in. Just bad luck on my side that I met guys who blindly all in'd? Or might zerg be reacting to my negletance to scout when I do this man train build?.. Note I'm only high gold/low plat so all ins are common
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So I've tried this four times on ladder yesterday and out of those four times the zerg used early speedling attacks or a bling bust to kill me before my push. In other vZ games where I didn't go for this build and normal scouting I didn't meet a single zerg trying a ling all in. Just bad luck on my side that I met guys who blindly all in'd? Or might zerg be reacting to my negletance to scout when I do this man train build?.. Note I'm only high gold/low plat so all ins are common
Scout more agressivly with your probe, when his pool is nearly done, run your probe out and then come back in 30-40 seconds, if there is more lings cut everything, get your cannon and wall up, fight with your probes + msc + zelaot if they flood a lot of lings to get your wall up.
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Italy12246 Posts
On May 31 2013 22:11 RobinVervuren wrote:
So I've tried this four times on ladder yesterday and out of those four times the zerg used early speedling attacks or a bling bust to kill me before my push. In other vZ games where I didn't go for this build and normal scouting I didn't meet a single zerg trying a ling all in. Just bad luck on my side that I met guys who blindly all in'd? Or might zerg be reacting to my negletance to scout when I do this man train build?.. Note I'm only high gold/low plat so all ins are common
The build itself isn't very safe, but you can still hold allins if you just get your wall up and get cannons as necessary imo. The zergs you are playing are not allining reactively, scout vs no scout has nothing to do with wether a build can hold off an allin or not.
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On May 26 2013 05:47 Zheryn wrote:
As a zerg, how do I know this is coming, and what is a good response to it?
You can tell from the enormous oncoming erection visible from about halfway across the map.
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It's funny as someone tried to pull this off on me. It was funnier still that after I pressured his wall I realized he had no units so I just made lings and won. ^^
I guess he didn't have good "shit I'm being attacked better wall" reactions. I'm SO glad I didn't lose to this.
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T.T ... good build. It just beat EGMachine!
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How the hell do you defend vs lots of speedlings? I can't get my wall up in time and I have no units :/
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Italy12246 Posts
On most maps you should complete your wall before 6 minutes, so you shoudl be fine if he's playing standard.
You die to silly 14/14 stuff if he commits to lings, but none decent does that blindly (unless you are playing a BoX or whatever) because it's terribad vs any other gateway opening as well as vs FFE.
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Italy12246 Posts
Bump, updated with a couple of Naniwa's replays which i missed in the old Dreamhack replay pack.
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If that wp buff goes through this will be even more phyco lol
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This is so good, it made him hate himself LOLOLOL
Now with new improved shuttles :D
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1Yn8MRy.jpg)
with the new shuttle it knocks a few secs earlier and adds much more annoying warp ins as queens are lifting their skirts as they chase it :D
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The problem with this build as stated is its very easily detected - and the last game I played z went blind spire and gg for me T_T
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How should one modify this build for PvP / PvT?
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Italy12246 Posts
It doesnt work in either matchup. Every viable build out there, save for very very few exceptions, is matchup-specific.
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The problem with this build as stated is its very easily detected - and the last game I played z went blind spire and gg for me T_T
Well I'm a Zerg user and used to have a bit of problem vs. this kind of push but thanks to this article have found myself surprisingly able to counter this build with few problems. I guess that in conjunction with good overlord scouting on gas, which in itself, even in the absence of actually spotting the Toss tech throws up danger signs to start making units earlier.
Very good guide vs the unprepared Zerg though .
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OK so I first saw this build in Naniwa's WCS Europe group when he did it against Uzer. However, I've noticed that the version he did against Uzer is a bit different than what he did in Stockholm. For reference, here is the WCS Europe link:
http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_europe/c/2559284
It seems like the version that hits sooner (A) is a bit more "all-in" than the other variation (B), which gets a forge and even defensive cannons at the natural.
Any thoughts on the different variations?
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Are there any replays out there showing how to properly react to this build as zerg?
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The thing about this build is that its designed to very specifically kill people going for a Ling/Hydra style. The Hydras, if they manage to pop in time, will be too few to deal with the manliness of this push. If he's got but a few roaches to transition into the hydra play, the immortals will wreck his face.
...Holding this off is riddiculusly easy if you've caught wind of it coming though. Simply mass up roach/ling and kill him dead. Meet his manliness head on, with the even more manly roach. Its super hard for the Protoss to afford any sentries at all, so if you pick your engagements and positioning well he'll have a tough time utilising his immortals without the Roaches killing them in one volley.
Likewise, any kind of early Ling/Bling/Muta play will wreck this composition. Even if you scout it late, creating a concave with spines at your natural and waiting for the mutalisks to pop can spell GG. The Banelings are somewhat vital to discourage him from just bumrushing your spines though. The build fulfills its niche extremely well. Its just that against anything else it gets roflstomped hard. It'll never become as staple as the Sentry/Immortal allin of old, and thank the heavens for that.
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Are there any replays out there showing how to properly react to this build as zerg?
I like to use the following build vs a toss that uses a build similar to the Naniwa vs Hyun game (9:10 min attack with 2 Immortals / 12 zealots): http://drop.sc/350459.
Basic timing benchmarks I shoot for when using this build is 44/44 supply by 5:40 and 77- 80 supply by 8:00 with 59-61 drone count. I start making units around 7:55 and by the 9 minute mark typically have 24 roach with additional morphing. After you stop his push you focus on expanding, droning, and upgrades. GG no re.
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My push is like...25 seconds late and it boosted my matchup wins from 53 to 61%
this is amazing
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EPT
