Been a while since I've posted here, but I've been working pretty hard on a Protoss Build Order video.
Today we are going to take a look at NaNiwa, one of the best Protoss players in StarCraft 2: Heart of the Swarm. We are taking a look at a game he played recently versus HyuN, one of the best Zergs in the world.
The goal for the build order is to push out with 2 Immortals, and a whole lot of Zealots with +1 attack. The push hits right when Zerg is vulnerable and is meant to kill them. You could however fall back, after doing sufficient damage.
The reason why this is so strong is because when this push hits, the Zerg is usually droning up and has very little army. The army that they do have will be mostly Zerglings (which get eaten by the Zealots) and all in all Zerg is very weak at this point when they open up 3 Hatch. There is really no way there is a big ball of Roach Hydra waiting for you. Since we are pushing with a lot of Zealots, gas will not very much important. Only 1 gas is needed for this Protoss build order.
NaNiwa decides to not scout at all, however, he does play it very very save. I do go over this in the video above.
The Build Order: Standard Gateway expand with 1 gas: 9 Pylon 13 Gateway 14 Gas 16 Pylon @Gateway: Cybernetics Core 19 Start a Zealot, but cancel it if there is no early pool coming @200 Minerals (23 supply): Probe to the low ground, cancel Zealot, start a Nexus @Cybernetics Core: Warpgate
Teching up @100 Gas: Mothership Core 24 Lowground Pylon @100 Gas: Robotics Facility On the low ground: Forge + Gateway (make a wall) @Nexus: Transfer Probes to the Natural Nexus @Forge: +1 Attack @Robotics: Warpprism @Warprism: Immortal x2 When the first immortal pops out: 5 Gateways
Pushing out Load the Immortals in the Warp Prism Warp in as many Zealot as possible If you see potential, move out a Probe early to throw down a Proxy pylon.
Sick guide Lowko, this build is ultra strong against quick three base and roach ling midgame. It feels like it hits pretty consistently before mutalisks (like we saw in the Naniwa v TLO on Neo Planet during DH).
I've really begun to exclusively follow the Leenock/JD/general zerg korean response to gate expand with basically 2 base 1/1 flood of lings ultimately leading to fast ultra off three base low eco. It seems to really roll this build because the flood of lings is ready by the time the warpins start. nevertheless, until this zerg response becomes the new 3hatchbeforegas standard I think there will be a serious place for this particular immortal allin.
especially on maps like this where the gas geysers are hidden
On May 22 2013 00:36 aznheat80 wrote: how do you deal with banelings doing splash damage against the zealots? If the zealots are gone, mass lings will overun the the rest of the army.
Zergs at prolevel very rarely go for banelings since it simply won't work versus the Forcefields of high level players. However, banelings would counter this build order very sincely indeed.
On May 22 2013 00:41 SteveNick wrote: I don't mean to downplay what you've done here, but didn't Day9 do a 60 minute daily on this build?
I'm 95% sure he even covered the same game vs. Hyun. Nice guide regardless, though.
Man, no, please no. This is so annoying, I hope master protoss on EU aren't going to pick up this build.
What exactly do I do against this, how do I counter/scout it? If I don't scout gases at 6:30 at the natural I throw down a roach warren and start making roach/ling, but would that be enough to counter this?
On May 22 2013 01:28 Henk wrote: Man, no, please no. This is so annoying, I hope master protoss on EU aren't going to pick up this build.
What exactly do I do against this, how do I counter/scout it? If I don't scout gases at 6:30 at the natural I throw down a roach warren and start making roach/ling, but would that be enough to counter this?
If you can successfully zone out and kill the immo's, then sure. Nice guide mate.
On May 22 2013 00:33 TemujinGK wrote: Sick guide Lowko, this build is ultra strong against quick three base and roach ling midgame. It feels like it hits pretty consistently before mutalisks (like we saw in the Naniwa v TLO on Neo Planet during DH).
I've really begun to exclusively follow the Leenock/JD/general zerg korean response to gate expand with basically 2 base 1/1 flood of lings ultimately leading to fast ultra off three base low eco. It seems to really roll this build because the flood of lings is ready by the time the warpins start. nevertheless, until this zerg response becomes the new 3hatchbeforegas standard I think there will be a serious place for this particular immortal allin.
especially on maps like this where the gas geysers are hidden
I'm interested in learning this style... do you have a rough build order or a replay to post?
I think the best thing about your videos is that you're not doing a lot of excessive fluff. It's a good video that just quickly overviews the build with a graphical aid. Would like to see more videos like this.
I've been using this a good bit and the real big issue I've run into is people just float an overlord in to scout and you have to either delay the immortals (and thus the push) for something that can shoot up or hang out in your birthday suit for a few mins.
So for those of you wondering how to scout it, a standard ovie floating in to look does it. Note that your ovie might get photon overcharged if it goes too near a nexus.
Lots of different things seem to work just fine to repel it, the most important part is having lots of units in time.
On May 22 2013 06:05 Gimpb wrote: I've been using this a good bit and the real big issue I've run into is people just float an overlord in to scout and you have to either delay the immortals (and thus the push) for something that can shoot up or hang out in your birthday suit for a few mins.
So for those of you wondering how to scout it, a standard ovie floating in to look does it. Note that your ovie might get photon overcharged if it goes too near a nexus.
Lots of different things seem to work just fine to repel it, the most important part is having lots of units in time.
Careful positioning of buildings and a willingness to photon overcharge as soon as the ovi is in range of it, which means keeping an eye on the edge of your base.
Really well made guide, only information that feels relevant presented in a clear way. Editing away the downtime between all the steps in the build order did a lot for the video, keep the good work up! Great build as well of course =)
It's daily #585. I believe part 1 covers the timings and safety of a gateway expand vs zerg. The end of part 1 covers the all-in build and the rest of the daily deals with nani's 4gate pressure build.
On May 22 2013 02:51 TsGBruzze wrote: Can someone make a guide for zergs that shows how too counter it :/
Roach ling is going to be your backbone, but getting an extra queen or two to help with targeting the prism is super helpfull. No prism no win.
Very bad advice, this build is the absolute counter to roach ling. The best counter to this build is to go ling+ bane, use the banes to clear out the zealots, and the lings will overrun everything else.
Very cool simplification of the build. Usually people write them down like 40supply X 44 Y 50 Z but your way of writing it down is great. However timings are vital. Include some
On May 22 2013 02:51 TsGBruzze wrote: Can someone make a guide for zergs that shows how too counter it :/
Roach ling is going to be your backbone, but getting an extra queen or two to help with targeting the prism is super helpfull. No prism no win.
Very bad advice, this build is the absolute counter to roach ling. The best counter to this build is to go ling+ bane, use the banes to clear out the zealots, and the lings will overrun everything else.
Actually this is totally fine versus this, so would Banelings be, it's scouting that's key.
The key to countering this build order is to scout the Protoss gas.
Whenever there is only 1 gas taken from the Protoss you know it's going to be a Zealot heavy 2 base all in.
All Zerg players right now assume that Protoss has those 2 gasses taken in the main, if this build becomes very popular it can't be an assumption anymore.
Thanks for the very helpful tutorial! I just have one question. What happens if a 10 pool shows up after you cancel the zealot? Can you hold okay with just probe micro and the mother ship core? Who is ahead in that situation?
On May 23 2013 00:48 Salient wrote: Thanks for the very helpful tutorial! I just have one question. What happens if a 10 pool shows up after you cancel the zealot? Can you hold okay with just probe micro and the mother ship core? Who is ahead in that situation?
In that situation the Protoss should flat out die.
It is a slight risk that you're taking! Can be neglected by doing a standard scout.
I gotta tell you, this build has made PvZ, which was my worst matchup earlier, a cakewalk (I am in Silver league though ). +1 Zealots are so freakingly strong vs anything the Zerg player have up at that timing. Having this build in my sleeve feels very good. Thanks!
On May 23 2013 00:48 Salient wrote: Thanks for the very helpful tutorial! I just have one question. What happens if a 10 pool shows up after you cancel the zealot? Can you hold okay with just probe micro and the mother ship core? Who is ahead in that situation?
In that situation the Protoss should flat out die.
It is a slight risk that you're taking! Can be neglected by doing a standard scout.
Alternatively, you can adjust the build order slightly to be a little safer. For example, you can send the probe a little early and put it a little further out on the map so that you will see the lings earlier, and/or you can start the mothership core before the nexus.
On May 22 2013 02:51 TsGBruzze wrote: Can someone make a guide for zergs that shows how too counter it :/
Roach ling is going to be your backbone, but getting an extra queen or two to help with targeting the prism is super helpfull. No prism no win.
Very bad advice, this build is the absolute counter to roach ling. The best counter to this build is to go ling+ bane, use the banes to clear out the zealots, and the lings will overrun everything else.
And then the Protoss splits their Zealots and you lose because you waste too many Banelings killing isolated Zealots/small groups of Zealots. Banelings are not really the answer to this if the Protoss controls properly.
Good luck doing that on creep. Even if you do split, its easier for mass lings to overrun your army. It's not as easy as you are making it sound.
Mass ling style is the way to go for zergs against gateway expands imo. Gateway expands often play a zealot heavy style without many sentries and the +1 timings is usually late so you can have +1 carapace by the time +1 hits basically. You want fast speed against gateway openings anyway if you are intent to take a third, because good speedling usage is the only way to secure the third, you don't want roaches against the 4 gate followup for example because you won't be on enough economy away (thus larva is no problem). Speedlings are also great to delay the push from gateway first by just threatening the runby or force them into a cannon anyway. If you have you're evo on time you can easily 'counter' the forge by going +1 carapace.
Isn't this the exact same build as The MAN Train, which was just posted a few days ago?
The tricky thing about these kinds of builds is that they are good because people don't know how to deal with it, and once they get figured out, stopping them is easy. As others have said, 1/1 lings on 2 bases is enough to completely stomp this.
Maybe fast robo builds like this could be used in a non-all-in fashion with the upcoming warp prism speed boost.
EPT
