http://drop.sc/333667

http://drop.sc/333672

When I get to scout rax/gas I throw down a 2nd gas, don't cancel zealot, chrono msc and stalker once cyber finishes and delay warpgate until after I start stargate and 2nd stalker. Then I camp his production to keep the marine count low, follow up with an oracle and finish it off with a 2base colossos timing if he hasn't left by then.

This reaction seems completely intuitive to me, but yet the reaper/reactor opening is by far the most popular. I've talked to terrans and they insist that it's just bad execution that makes my opponents loose but I honestly don't see how even the best execution in the world would make you come out ahead there.

Normally I stick around to see 2nd depo to confirm it's not 2rax, but that seems almost like a waste give how rare 2rax is and how popular this is.
Are there variations you can do as a terran that could deny this? - what about pulling out of gas at 50 and throwing down 2 rax instead of going reactor immediately?

Baum

Germany1010 Posts

May 12 2013 09:47 GMT

Reaper into Reactor obviously isn't very safe since it cuts into your early marine production so much. However there is no obligation to skip the SCV scout and if you see a Zealot heading your way obviously you need to start a bunker asap and the reaper should be able to determine the stargate follow up so it's not as autowin as you make it sound but it is definitely difficult to deal with especially on maps with small rush distances.

Veetz

Canada109 Posts

May 12 2013 09:52 GMT

honestly .. the only reason that terrans are doing reaper / reactor / expand .. is because of the threat of fast oracles from ths toss.. with this build, you can a fast engy bay.. and you are able to scout the map looking for a proxy stargate .. then you might as well just get a +1 attack, and build it into your normal medvac timing, with a 1/1 .. instead of 1/0 .. i feel like the best reaction to this build from toss would be:

expand asap .. go double forge robo .. the starport is delayed compared to a standard 1 rax cc .. and so fast collosus into a 3rd base with double ups .. its always a solid build.. getting the reaper early is only to help scout for all ins.. (its so hard to scout toss these days with their double gas always these days)

of course.. there are tons of variations of this build, you can keep guys in gas, build a fast factory.. go into some sort of widow mine drop or something .. or do a siege tank medvac push .. but the most common build right now is to do the one i posted above..

p.s. yes it is standard to pull guys out of gas at 50, so that you can start a cc and then start mining gas again and ebay ..

TheDwf

France19747 Posts

May 12 2013 11:01 GMT

On May 12 2013 18:30 StaraCroft wrote:
http://drop.sc/333667

http://drop.sc/333672

When I get to scout rax/gas I throw down a 2nd gas, don't cancel zealot, chrono msc and stalker once cyber finishes and delay warpgate until after I start stargate and 2nd stalker. Then I camp his production to keep the marine count low, follow up with an oracle and finish it off with a 2base colossos timing if he hasn't left by then.

This reaction seems completely intuitive to me, but yet the reaper/reactor opening is by far the most popular. I've talked to terrans and they insist that it's just bad execution that makes my opponents loose but I honestly don't see how even the best execution in the world would make you come out ahead there.

Normally I stick around to see 2nd depo to confirm it's not 2rax, but that seems almost like a waste give how rare 2rax is and how popular this is.
Are there variations you can do as a terran that could deny this? - what about pulling out of gas at 50 and throwing down 2 rax instead of going reactor immediately?

One Bunker at the front is all it takes to shut your poke. In the first game, your opponent had to waste 5 seconds to make his add-on because he walled on a stupid spawn, and you intercepted his first 2 Marines which is never supposed to happen. In the second game, your opponent again wasted time to make his add-on + made his bunk horribly late. So yes, it's just bad execution that makes them lose.

On May 12 2013 18:47 Baum wrote:
Reaper into Reactor obviously isn't very safe since it cuts into your early marine production so much. However there is no obligation to skip the SCV scout and if you see a Zealot heading your way obviously you need to start a bunker asap and the reaper should be able to determine the stargate follow up so it's not as autowin as you make it sound but it is definitely difficult to deal with especially on maps with small rush distances.

Reaper reactor is safe. It's just a matter of having your Bunker in time against pokes. When your SCV scouts a Zealot moving out on the map, you can just attack him with your Reaper so he can't advance until the Stalker is out.

Nope, it can be built at the same timing.

StaraCroft

Austria292 Posts

May 12 2013 12:23 GMT

I think an early bunker at their main ramp would be good (I can just walk by the bunker at the natural) - if they can identify what I'm doing. I've had one guy cut scv's at 13 to put up an early 2nd depo which makes it look like gasless which I thought was really smart. I skipped stalker and sent msc to scout right away and the reaper really messed me up. It also means I can't do that pressure unless I want to gamble.

Here's a blind all-in version of that build that I'm no longer doing because it's crap against anything gasless, but it shows the follow up
http://drop.sc/327844
He could have probably held with an early bunker, so it doesn't add much to the discussion, but at least you can see where it's going.

RyLai

United States477 Posts

May 13 2013 11:11 GMT

On May 12 2013 18:52 Veetz wrote:
honestly .. the only reason that terrans are doing reaper / reactor / expand .. is because of the threat of fast oracles from ths toss.. with this build, you can a fast engy bay.. and you are able to scout the map looking for a proxy stargate .. then you might as well just get a +1 attack, and build it into your normal medvac timing, with a 1/1 .. instead of 1/0 .. i feel like the best reaction to this build from toss would be:

expand asap .. go double forge robo .. the starport is delayed compared to a standard 1 rax cc .. and so fast collosus into a 3rd base with double ups .. its always a solid build.. getting the reaper early is only to help scout for all ins.. (its so hard to scout toss these days with their double gas always these days)

of course.. there are tons of variations of this build, you can keep guys in gas, build a fast factory.. go into some sort of widow mine drop or something .. or do a siege tank medvac push .. but the most common build right now is to do the one i posted above..

p.s. yes it is standard to pull guys out of gas at 50, so that you can start a cc and then start mining gas again and ebay ..

I don't pull SCVs off gas. I don't mind the slightly delayed CC to get my tech up a bit faster (but I'm still not 100% set on the build being optimal, but at the moment, I just need a starting point, and I really like where I'm at with it).

I get out enough Marines to deny the MSC poke (standard) and I can't imagine a Zealot poke really doing anything... You have a freakin' Reaper, you can make a wall, and there's something called a Bunker. Camping the production? No. Should not happen.

And Stargate followups are easily dealt with. I'll have plenty of Marines and a Widow Mine to defend. After you come in and either die to or get scared off by the Widow Mine, my second one will pop with the Medivac, then I do counter pressure and go into 3 Rax. Reaper Reactor rax is super safe as far as I can tell (you have units and tech at the cost of a slightly delayed expansion compared to a gasless expand). It's just execution and how you follow up after that really defines the game.

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