EPT[D] "Mech it happens", Lyyna mech thread 2.0 - Page 4
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woopr
United States110 Posts
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Inty
United States99 Posts
For the engagements with the push I feel that it is strong against most compositions a protoss would have at that time. Hellbats kill all the zealots and keep immortals and archons away giving the tanks to deal a lot of damage. The closest someone has been to stopping this push has been with zealot flanks but I feel that can be dealt with by leaving a few hellbats in the rear. Thoughts? | ||
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
Why so small? well, because i forgot to save a tons of high quality games (T_T) which quit pissed me and made me delayed it until i got enough games . . but i wasn't even able to do so. But well, since i now have my 'definitive' builds i'll release this little pack so people can see how my builds evolved since the release of the game and look at the most recent ones to see what i currently use On May 11 2013 19:20 BhostGuster wrote: Most zergs will have a few hydras and an overseer with their SHs, or sometimes they'll even put up spores up near the SHs if the creep spread allows it. I guess I'll try increasing the Tank count. That's why i'll prefer raven, their range is insane and you can 'tank' some spore/hydra fire if needed once you get enough On May 11 2013 20:09 chuky500 wrote: I'm a platinum protoss and I had a game last week where the terran only made thors and mines, like 50% thors 50% mines or something like that. I didn't scout well so I didn't really know what to expect and went for a wierd mix of HTs and Immortals and lost my army to his push, then I played from behind and his repop was big. He was scanning to kill the obs and i was trying to storm his mines. Macro wise I was good before that push in my opinion. He made his push with 3 factories when I watched the replay, then made more. The push was at a standard medivac timing push. What do you think of this thors mines mix ? Is is something that only works because it's not usual and platinum don't scout well, and that would get destroyed to immortals out of 2 robos, or something that has inner power that should be explorated more ? Hmm, i guess the best thing when scouting this when be to go for something like immortal/VR/chargelot, using your zealots to drag mines in his thors while going for a zealot/immortal/tempest composition A replay would help to see what happens exactly On May 11 2013 23:33 woopr wrote: what do you think about changing tanks to 2 supply? It would be good imo. 2 supply tanks with same cost wouldn't impact early that much but would make tanks massing lategame way better On May 12 2013 01:29 Inty wrote: What do you think of a 2 base timing with 4 facts against protoss as shown by kop in SPL against oz. I don't think I have played enough games with it to truly tell if its good/ bad reactions from opponents but it seems pretty strong. If the toss is being greedy it is very difficult for them to stop it. I have not played against enough two base all ins to tell how well it would fare but it seems like it would be good since you have a lot of units. Against 1 base all ins its a 1-1-1 opening so defend like normal and scout. For the engagements with the push I feel that it is strong against most compositions a protoss would have at that time. Hellbats kill all the zealots and keep immortals and archons away giving the tanks to deal a lot of damage. The closest someone has been to stopping this push has been with zealot flanks but I feel that can be dealt with by leaving a few hellbats in the rear. Thoughts? Hm, can't watch right now, i'll watch tomorrow and edit this answer But from what i used to do in WoL, 2 base timings can be good : people may remember i used to some 2 bases push with 1 reactored rax, 3 / 4 fact (1 react 2/3 TL) and 1 TL port , using marines/hellions/tanks/banshees in order to break the protoss army at a timing where he can't have any mass air or too much AOE units to fight your tons of hellions/marines if he went for a fast 3rd I'll do a more accurate answer after sseing the game | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
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puissance
97 Posts
- Gas allocation: I think you try to much at once and are left with little actual army. You go for a very fast starport, Banshees, Raven and Ghosts all on two base. This is too "cute" / techy for my taste, a build gets stronger with less different stuff and more of the solid core units, which are lots of Hellbats and Tanks, with a couple of Medivacs / Vikings. This way you end up with a much bigger army faster, which makes you saver against an early Gateway / Immortal push, while giving you the option to get aggressive on (two base) if he gets too greedy. - Too passive: You dont harass in any way and dont use good push timings. There quite a few missed opportunites where you could have tried to at least pressure your opponent. Early Mine / Marine attacks are strong, possibly two pronged with a Medivac and Hellbat drops throughout the game. Also you build your second Armory quite late, I prefer two build my second army when +1 Weapon is around 75% done, this gives you a strong +2+1 timing. You dont need to sit for the whole game and wait that he attacks into you, with HOTS mech is much more aggresive, with lots of options, you should use this advantage! | ||
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
On May 13 2013 07:20 puissance wrote: Hey I want to give constructive criticism regarding your build playstyle in TvP: - Gas allocation: I think you try to much at once and are left with little actual army. You go for a very fast starport, Banshees, Raven and Ghosts all on two base. This is too "cute" / techy for my taste, a build gets stronger with less different stuff and more of the solid core units, which are lots of Hellbats and Tanks, with a couple of Medivacs / Vikings. This way you end up with a much bigger army faster, which makes you saver against an early Gateway / Immortal push, while giving you the option to get aggressive on (two base) if he gets too greedy. - Too passive: You dont harass in any way and dont use good push timings. There quite a few missed opportunites where you could have tried to at least pressure your opponent. Early Mine / Marine attacks are strong, possibly two pronged with a Medivac and Hellbat drops throughout the game. Also you build your second Armory quite late, I prefer two build my second army when +1 Weapon is around 75% done, this gives you a strong +2+1 timing. You dont need to sit for the whole game and wait that he attacks into you, with HOTS mech is much more aggresive, with lots of options, you should use this advantage! About the gas allocation : Well, i can (barely, but i can) support the ghost/thor/banshee production on 2 bases (assuming my 'ideal' plan where i was able to bank gas early game and taking my 3rd when i start more fact and mass tanks) : i discovered it helped me a lot to fight some hardcore 2 bases timings in WoL, using a relatively low number of super-effective units. Tanks aren't good before you get a critical mass, which is basically why i prefer to go for thors with an early +1 armor in order to fight heavy gateway agressions, with the support of hellbats in order to start massing my 'buffer' units and protect my few first gas units, and the ghost/banshee helps me to fight some units he might mass early in order to try a 2 base timing (like immortal and colossus) About being too passive : well, that's something i do in every MU. I prefer to miss an attack opportunity in order to consolidate my own position, as i know my lategame is very solid, i don't like to use agressive play or to "waste" units on an harass that will not work if my opponent reacts well (and for me,a play relying on the opponent playing bad is a bad play). This late second armory is because i don't need double uppgrade before my air switch : i don't need to hit any important timings, and until i switch towards air, i can focus on 1 uppgrade at a time, starting early enough to make sure i still have decent ones, but without spending too much gas on it | ||
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tallon777
Spain4 Posts
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zyberjunior
17 Posts
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
On May 27 2013 21:47 zyberjunior wrote: What do you think about doing the marine/hellion expand into mech for TVT? Which version ? 1 1 - Expand ? A drop version or something? | ||
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
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ADSRelease
United States37 Posts
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
On June 14 2013 02:19 ADSRelease wrote: I'm not sure why you say you have a god awful accent. Your accent is prettier than so many native English speakers. Because i feel it's true :p even if french, i have difficulties to speak, i have the same in english + lack of practice that affects my accent. Also, i prefer to warn i have a bad accent in case anyone doesnt understand instead of saying i have a good one and get taunted :D Anyway, now back into sc2 ! updating op with my bo's | ||
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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
On May 11 2013 23:33 woopr wrote: what do you think about changing tanks to 2 supply? that you should make roaches and stalkers 1 supply. | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On June 19 2013 21:33 Karpfen wrote: that you should make roaches and stalkers 1 supply. That would be relevant if dragoons had had 1 supply in Brood War. | ||
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
Added a new replays pack, and a poll for the next VoD. This VOD will be the last one to be made in both english and french 'by default' , after that i'll take the result of the poll (In the vod's poll, if you chose the last option, just send any question you might have by pm on tl, in order to avoid flooding the thread) also starting to right the 3 big guides for mech MUs  | ||
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bypLy
757 Posts
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larse
1611 Posts
http://imgur.com/a/zEjY3 | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On June 28 2013 16:30 larse wrote: So why mech is viable here but not in a real game? http://imgur.com/a/zEjY3 That's usually what happens in real games for me if I have good positioning. The problem I have however is when they warp in a bunch of stuff before I can reinforce :p I need to work on my factory count. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On June 28 2013 16:30 larse wrote: So why mech is viable here but not in a real game? http://imgur.com/a/zEjY3 I think that nicely shows the way mech beat toss: if he goes for the frontal assault in pre-sieged mech without a proper unit composition. Luckily that happens quite a bit, but still it says more about the toss than about mech. Most important, with such a gigantic mobility advantage a toss shouldn't be attacking directly into a sieged up mech army. On a map like Derelict Watcher (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Derelict_Watcher) it is imo extremely hard to defend the normal third location with mech against a toss mid-late game army. With blink stalkers + colossi they can decimate the base easily (even with only blink stalker raids), and your slow army can arrive when the last SCVs are running for their life. But now lets assume your army was already their sieged up. The toss walks around and goes towards your natural. What to do? Well not much choice. Unsiege your tanks, and go after his army. Hellbats are quite strong, but also quite horrible at dodging storms. So your hellbats have to go through the storms. Your vikings are fastest part of your army, but without backup they won't do that much. And your siege tanks are unsieged. So if the toss turns around he can suddenly have a very favorable engagement. Or just force you to siege up, and continue destroying your natural again. Meanwhile toss uses freed up supply to warp in round of zealots and kill the third. Of course it isn't that black and white. You can for example take an alternative third. But a few pictures where a toss army a-moves into pre-sieged terran mech army and also without for example zealot warp-ins really don't say much. Look at TvZ. Why do you think 4M is so popular? Because it will be more effective than a sieged up mech army in a small arena fight? Of course not, mech would be 10 times more effective in such a situation. The answer is mobility. You can get out of unfavourable engagements. You can force your enemy into unfavourable engagements. You can evade his army, he cannot evade yours. You have always the option of retreat. And not to mention rebuild speed. Of course there is more than mobility, a very mobile army that can't kill anything is still useless. But so is such a picture. | ||
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
On June 28 2013 17:28 Sissors wrote: But now lets assume your army was already their sieged up. The toss walks around and goes towards your natural. What to do? Well not much choice. Unsiege your tanks, and go after his army. Hellbats are quite strong, but also quite horrible at dodging storms. So your hellbats have to go through the storms. Your vikings are fastest part of your army, but without backup they won't do that much. And your siege tanks are unsieged. So if the toss turns around he can suddenly have a very favorable engagement. Or just force you to siege up, and continue destroying your natural again. Meanwhile toss uses freed up supply to warp in round of zealots and kill the third. Well, a big mistake people often do vs that is that they often want their army to be a ball - if 1 tank is sieged, NOONE MOVE ZOMG HOLD YOUR GROUND... which is stupid. Your core unit has the longest range available on the ground , you have sensor towers, why not using these ? One of the things most people lack is good tank positionning and sensor tower usage You put a sensor tower near your 3rd ramp, allowing you to see any incoming things on your third AND natural (so you'll need another for the main/4th), you can then start a tank line at the top of your 3rd ramp (allowing you to cover the most vulnerable point : your 3rd external cliff AND the area near your natural) then adding more tanks sieged closer to your natural : wherever the protoss attack, you shoud have like 50% of your tanks firing. But hey, he might come by your 4th and blink into your main! but guess what ? since you know he isn't at your 3rd, your army is in position (remember : the most vulnerable/important position) BUT NOT SIEGED. So all you need, when you see him arriving around your 4th, is to just start moving towards your main, but not too far : you don't need to run into his army or to be right under your main's cliff to prevent a blink in, you just need to have the area where he'll start/finish his blink in range of your tanks, meaning that he may not know you're here : He comes in, hoping to blink, and loose a tons of stalkers to a shitload of tanks fire or is forced to retreat, which you can see thanks to your tower, so you can unsiege your tank line, and then be ready to move the next time he enters a sensor tower radius. also please remember to complete the poll about the subject of the next vod you would like to see | ||
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