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yeastiality
Canada374 Posts
Even if fungal is a projectile now, the bio units have to stay in a certain area relative to where the mines are placed. It's not *that* hard to hit a big chunk of them unless you're playing EU-KR with huge lag or something like that. I don't think he's saying "never use mutas" or "make purely infestors with your gas" - just that infestors can answer a lot of the fundamental strengths of bio/mine armies. When terrans start mixing in tanks, we're screwed, though! | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 21 2013 00:34 TheDwf wrote: It's not about what Zerg wants to do, it's about what Zerg is forced to do. Zergs do not morph Banelings out of pleasure, but because otherwise they will simply lose to critical mass of Marines in a tight formation. Your plan to jump straight to Infestors from Mutalisks without conceding any Baneling has major flaws; you will have severe issues defending the first Medivac push (particularly if Terran manages to land his troops behind mineral lines), and you will be in a world of pain if Terran hits you with 40+ Marines in a ball before you have Infestors out. yes. But all Terrans I meet go for mines blindly these days. Basically what I believe is: If Terran goes for a macro game (3CC with double upgrades), any form of marine/mine/medivac push/drop before 12mins can be held without banelings. If he goes for a two base play... just do whatever works to hold it with 3bases. And for drops I go mutas. And then I try to not fuck up and let him drop me too heavily. Else I wouldn't go mutas and just open infestors to begin with. I don't believe in investing heavily into drop denial and then assuming that I need a lot of ground dropdefense as well. | ||
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
On April 21 2013 00:56 Decendos wrote: thats the point. he HAS to make lings or will die. those 4 spines were great yeah....but you cant make 50 spines...you need lings or will just die to everything. if he does 1-2 drops while attacking...hf defending that without lings^^ You don't need 50 spines. Like you said those 4 spines were great. And you don't need to completely stop making zerglings either. So you won't be "defending without lings". Don't take it to extremes look at how it can be cost effective if you place them in the right spots at the right times. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On April 21 2013 01:08 ManiacTheZealot wrote: You don't need 50 spines. Like you said those 4 spines were great. And you don't need to completely stop making zerglings either. So you won't be "defending without lings". Don't take it to extremes look at how it can be cost effective if you place them in the right spots at the right times. 4 spines to block the small attack path to the 4th...another 6 where flash attacked then and 3 or so do fight off drops. thats already 13 for 1 base... | ||
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
On April 21 2013 01:29 Decendos wrote: 4 spines to block the small attack path to the 4th...another 6 where flash attacked then and 3 or so do fight off drops. thats already 13 for 1 base... So let me get this straight you're advocating for no spines at all unless you can build 50 of them and defend everything at once? | ||
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On April 21 2013 01:54 ManiacTheZealot wrote: So let me get this straight you're advocating for no spines at all unless you can build 50 of them and defend everything at once? i am saying 1-2 spines/spores per base vs drops is fine. just like every Z does as standard play. i dont really get what YOU mean. first you say " build spines vs mines instead of lings"...which you would need 30-60 depending on map. then you say, build 4....at 1 base...and basically play like bbong vs flash and build mass lings?! now how many spines would you say do you need in ZvT to stop the 11+ min attack that never stops. how would you balance the spine/ling ratio? how many spines/spores as drop defense? give us some numbers because right now it seems you had an idea "spines are good vs mines" but no practical clue on how to do it. if it is that good please give us a replay of you doing this mass spine style vs MMMM so we get a feeling for the number and positioning of spines you mean. | ||
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
On April 21 2013 02:09 Decendos wrote: i am saying 1-2 spines/spores per base vs drops is fine. just like every Z does as standard play. i dont really get what YOU mean. first you say " build spines vs mines instead of lings"...which you would need 30-60 depending on map. then you say, build 4....at 1 base...and basically play like bbong vs flash and build mass lings?! now how many spines would you say do you need in ZvT to stop the 11+ min attack that never stops. how would you balance the spine/ling ratio? how many spines/spores as drop defense? give us some numbers because right now it seems you had an idea "spines are good vs mines" but no practical clue on how to do it. if it is that good please give us a replay of you doing this mass spine style vs MMMM so we get a feeling for the number and positioning of spines you mean. Please don't quote things that I didn't say. Also note that this is a discussion topic not a strategy guide. It would be pointless to tell you how many to make as that would change from game to game depending on the situation. Telling you where to put them would be map specific. The topic for discussion is how to defend against this slow push use of the mines. And yes you can boil it down to spines can kill mines but that's vastly over-simplified. | ||
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
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PanzerElite
540 Posts
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
Lately when I see enemies going for heavy mine/bio I have been getting SH/Roaches with spellcaster support and it has worked great so far. Locusts basically make the mines irrelevant, and then you can send Roaches in to take initial aggression and clean up the mines. Locusts are great vs Marines as well, and infestors (or vipers if it goes that late) can nullify the infantry. I honestly don't see what Mutas provide vs this match up that SH compositions don't do better, aside from discouraging drops a bit? (which can be handled with static defenses and roaches) | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
In addition, if you can keep terran pinned back away from the mines, it's no problem to run a handful of lings over the mines, set them off, and then clean them up with mutas. Essentially, it works the same way as a terran clearing creep after distracting zerg with a drop or 2. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On April 21 2013 04:02 Spyridon wrote: Why has noone mentioned Swarm Hosts? Lately when I see enemies going for heavy mine/bio I have been getting SH/Roaches with spellcaster support and it has worked great so far. Locusts basically make the mines irrelevant, and then you can send Roaches in to take initial aggression and clean up the mines. Locusts are great vs Marines as well, and infestors (or vipers if it goes that late) can nullify the infantry. I honestly don't see what Mutas provide vs this match up that SH compositions don't do better, aside from discouraging drops a bit? (which can be handled with static defenses and roaches) so where exactly do you get your gas? do you go roach ling bling into SH and then add infestors and static? or infestor first and then add SH and static? basically you go muta because otherwise T will drop you a lot and worst of all: his medivac count will get out of hand very fast. like in 5 min he will have 10-12 medivacs which means he can outheal fungal at which point you have a problem. especially doomdrops with 4-5 medivacs are insanely hard to deal with if you go SH without muta. you guys need to post replays and not just theorycraft about this. | ||
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
On April 21 2013 04:11 SC2John wrote: In my personal experience, the best way to stop mines from creeping up to your front door is just constant counterattacks with muta/ling. Life has a lot of success with this, and I've been trying to copy a lot from him. Basically, you can defend the first parts of terran aggression with your muta/ling and start putting up static defenses at your base and then just go balls to the wall counterattack aggression which will stop the inevitable widow mine fields in the middle of the map from being dangerous. In addition, if you can keep terran pinned back away from the mines, it's no problem to run a handful of lings over the mines, set them off, and then clean them up with mutas. Essentially, it works the same way as a terran clearing creep after distracting zerg with a drop or 2. I've been experimenting with this as well. However I've been using drops and nydus to do it to avoid the widow mines and wall off. Once my lings get adrenal glands I load up a bunch and drop them in his base while pushing with the rest of my army. The drop itself is very cheap and cost very little supply but can do significant damage with the adrenal glands upgrade. Killing scv's and production facilities will slow him down a lot. Nydus can do this without risk of being out of position and you can take a larger part of your army but it's harder to get down. I think this is definitely the way we need to play to beat MMMM. Putting pressure on the terran without having to attack into his mine field is definitely the way to go. | ||
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
On April 21 2013 04:02 Spyridon wrote: Why has noone mentioned Swarm Hosts? Lately when I see enemies going for heavy mine/bio I have been getting SH/Roaches with spellcaster support and it has worked great so far. Locusts basically make the mines irrelevant, and then you can send Roaches in to take initial aggression and clean up the mines. Locusts are great vs Marines as well, and infestors (or vipers if it goes that late) can nullify the infantry. I honestly don't see what Mutas provide vs this match up that SH compositions don't do better, aside from discouraging drops a bit? (which can be handled with static defenses and roaches) The reason I don't use swarmhosts mid game is because I get melee upgrades first against terran. I feel like the aoe from banelings and ultralisks is something you can't live without against bio. Late game if the terran tries a switch to something like say raven/bc I think swarmhosts can win the game for you with some multi pronged attacks taking advantage of his weaker ground army. I haven't tried the hydra/roach timing attacks against bio yet. Those might synergize with a swarmhost switch more. Someone asked for a replay. Here's the best I can do on short notice. The terran wasn't as aggressive as I would have liked him to be in the example so I didn't make a lot of spines. But the ones I did make paid for themselves. http://drop.sc/325983 Here's another a bit more aggressive, more spines used. http://drop.sc/325988 | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On April 21 2013 01:03 yeastiality wrote: Fungal will reveal and damage mines. Infested terrans will set off mines. Infestors can harass bases that don't have tanks guarding them, whereas mutas can still just die to random mines and stimmed marines. Even if fungal is a projectile now, the bio units have to stay in a certain area relative to where the mines are placed. It's not *that* hard to hit a big chunk of them unless you're playing EU-KR with huge lag or something like that. I don't think he's saying "never use mutas" or "make purely infestors with your gas" - just that infestors can answer a lot of the fundamental strengths of bio/mine armies. When terrans start mixing in tanks, we're screwed, though! 3-5 infestors are good in mid-game onwards mine sweepers role. That makes muta/ling/bling into muta/ling/bling/infestor. Blizzard is really making it hard. Separates the pros from the amateurs. I like it. | ||
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ETisME
12266 Posts
The main issue is the lower league who doesn't try to donate the mine before entering first AND the GM/Pro level where the balance issue really shines. This is what I heard from Ret when I was watching from his stream, something along this line: you can get dropped to death and zerg can't put on aggression back onto the terran because they have total map control with the new medivac. They also have a great defensive capability because of the mines. Korean Zerg basically beat mines by having really good ling control and drop defense. Spines will do nothing against marauder drops/run by which can snipe a hatch within around 10 seconds. Every spine you lose is losing one more drone and one less larva that needed for something else. What he means is that in order to shut down drops and have some form of map control, you can only rely on muta but even with muta, it is much harder to kill medivac, making the eventually bio mine push much more powerful because a high medivac, mine and upgraded bio can *only* be beaten but a strong hive tech army backed with infestors. Not to mention nowadays terrans are relatively safe to do a quick in base 3rd CC. With no ability to put back pressure onto the terran due to reaper, hellions, big maps and eventually the mines and drops, zerg will be at a macro disadvantage. | ||
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AlexanderDebois
Kyrgyzstan38 Posts
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
On April 21 2013 12:37 ETisME wrote: I will expand on my points earlier on. The problem is not your plat/diamond league, I am not having a too big big trouble against terran at diamond league either with just ling micro and good defense against drop and I am playing a ling baneling hydra combo into ultra viper. The main issue is the lower league who doesn't try to donate the mine before entering first AND the GM/Pro level where the balance issue really shines. This is what I heard from Ret when I was watching from his stream, something along this line: you can get dropped to death and zerg can't put on aggression back onto the terran because they have total map control with the new medivac. They also have a great defensive capability because of the mines. Korean Zerg basically beat mines by having really good ling control and drop defense. Spines will do nothing against marauder drops/run by which can snipe a hatch within around 10 seconds. Every spine you lose is losing one more drone and one less larva that needed for something else. What he means is that in order to shut down drops and have some form of map control, you can only rely on muta but even with muta, it is much harder to kill medivac, making the eventually bio mine push much more powerful because a high medivac, mine and upgraded bio can *only* be beaten but a strong hive tech army backed with infestors. Not to mention nowadays terrans are relatively safe to do a quick in base 3rd CC. With no ability to put back pressure onto the terran due to reaper, hellions, big maps and eventually the mines and drops, zerg will be at a macro disadvantage. This is exactly how I feel. Muta/ling/bling for me is completely lacking in sustainability and if you don't open up a window for you to secure your 7/8th gas and transition into ultralisk it's going to be very difficult for you to win. What is the most aggravating about the new medivac is that if terran controls well then the drop cannot be punished. They can simply pick up and fly away! Even if you have mutas chasing the drop down - the medivac will manage to get more than halfway across the map before the mutas can even BEGIN to catch up with it at normal move speed (which opens up your ling/bling to a push from bio/mine). This, in combination with bio/mine allowing terran to take map control against your much more fragile composition, means that terran can easily expand on par with the zerg player. This is where it gets frustrating. For a zerg to compete, he needs to be up a base or more. If terran is on an equal number of bases (4+ is the rage inducing number), which they CAN take with bio/mine, then mules enable them to have a severe macro advantage and snowball out of control. | ||
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
On April 21 2013 13:05 AlexanderDebois wrote: As a terran player I would simply stim my 2-2, or worse 3-3, maruaders with a medivac or two up to the spines. They then die in about .5 seconds. I don't really know how you would stop this..if there are mines right behind the marauders good luck getting close to them and they would probably kill the spines before you could react anyway. Interesting theory crafting but I do no think it could work. Do you know what else also dies in .5 seconds? All your marines and marauders while they try to kill off the spines. Why would the zerg let you walk up to his spines and kill them all for free? This sounds like a mistake from the zerg, not a good play by the terran. | ||
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