|
On April 21 2013 14:40 ManiacTheZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 13:05 AlexanderDebois wrote: As a terran player I would simply stim my 2-2, or worse 3-3, maruaders with a medivac or two up to the spines. They then die in about .5 seconds. I don't really know how you would stop this..if there are mines right behind the marauders good luck getting close to them and they would probably kill the spines before you could react anyway. Interesting theory crafting but I do no think it could work. Do you know what else also dies in .5 seconds? All your marines and marauders while they try to kill off the spines. Why would the zerg let you walk up to his spines and kill them all for free? This sounds like a mistake from the zerg, not a good play by the terran. nothing kills maunders within .5 seconds unless you kill them with pure banelings or a whole pack of muta...not even with ultras
|
On April 21 2013 13:05 Qwyn wrote: For a zerg to compete, he needs to be up a base or more. If terran is on an equal number of bases (4+ is the rage inducing number), which they CAN take with bio/mine, then mules enable them to have a severe macro advantage and snowball out of control.
This seems to be a commonly held opinion of zergs who stay on lair tech to long. As you can see in the video simply trying to out produce terran at teir 2 is no longer possible. I'm pretty sure that nobody thinks flash and bboongs macro was lacking. IMO faster hive could solve this problem.
|
On April 21 2013 14:48 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 14:40 ManiacTheZealot wrote:On April 21 2013 13:05 AlexanderDebois wrote: As a terran player I would simply stim my 2-2, or worse 3-3, maruaders with a medivac or two up to the spines. They then die in about .5 seconds. I don't really know how you would stop this..if there are mines right behind the marauders good luck getting close to them and they would probably kill the spines before you could react anyway. Interesting theory crafting but I do no think it could work. Do you know what else also dies in .5 seconds? All your marines and marauders while they try to kill off the spines. Why would the zerg let you walk up to his spines and kill them all for free? This sounds like a mistake from the zerg, not a good play by the terran. nothing kills maunders within .5 seconds unless you kill them with pure banelings or a whole pack of muta...not even with ultras
By .5 seconds I meant "fast" which I'm sure is what you meant as well considering I've never seen all my spines die in .5 seconds either.
|
On April 21 2013 14:58 ManiacTheZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 14:48 ETisME wrote:On April 21 2013 14:40 ManiacTheZealot wrote:On April 21 2013 13:05 AlexanderDebois wrote: As a terran player I would simply stim my 2-2, or worse 3-3, maruaders with a medivac or two up to the spines. They then die in about .5 seconds. I don't really know how you would stop this..if there are mines right behind the marauders good luck getting close to them and they would probably kill the spines before you could react anyway. Interesting theory crafting but I do no think it could work. Do you know what else also dies in .5 seconds? All your marines and marauders while they try to kill off the spines. Why would the zerg let you walk up to his spines and kill them all for free? This sounds like a mistake from the zerg, not a good play by the terran. nothing kills maunders within .5 seconds unless you kill them with pure banelings or a whole pack of muta...not even with ultras By .5 seconds I meant "fast" which I'm sure is what you meant as well considering I've never seen all my spines die in .5 seconds either. you can snipe spine crawlers with marauders, I think it get one shoted by around 5 or 6 upgraded marauders I am sure you have experience with it if you ever played against a marauder hellion push
|
United States4883 Posts
On April 21 2013 14:40 ManiacTheZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 13:05 AlexanderDebois wrote: As a terran player I would simply stim my 2-2, or worse 3-3, maruaders with a medivac or two up to the spines. They then die in about .5 seconds. I don't really know how you would stop this..if there are mines right behind the marauders good luck getting close to them and they would probably kill the spines before you could react anyway. Interesting theory crafting but I do no think it could work. Do you know what else also dies in .5 seconds? All your marines and marauders while they try to kill off the spines. Why would the zerg let you walk up to his spines and kill them all for free? This sounds like a mistake from the zerg, not a good play by the terran.
This is a bad point, please stop talking. MMMM > spines/ling/bling with no infestors. Zerglings have an attack range of ZERO. Again, you have yet to make a solid point in this thread aside from the vague indication that spines might be good at stopping mines.
On April 21 2013 13:05 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 12:37 ETisME wrote: I will expand on my points earlier on. The problem is not your plat/diamond league, I am not having a too big big trouble against terran at diamond league either with just ling micro and good defense against drop and I am playing a ling baneling hydra combo into ultra viper.
The main issue is the lower league who doesn't try to donate the mine before entering first AND the GM/Pro level where the balance issue really shines.
This is what I heard from Ret when I was watching from his stream, something along this line: you can get dropped to death and zerg can't put on aggression back onto the terran because they have total map control with the new medivac. They also have a great defensive capability because of the mines. Korean Zerg basically beat mines by having really good ling control and drop defense.
Spines will do nothing against marauder drops/run by which can snipe a hatch within around 10 seconds. Every spine you lose is losing one more drone and one less larva that needed for something else.
What he means is that in order to shut down drops and have some form of map control, you can only rely on muta but even with muta, it is much harder to kill medivac, making the eventually bio mine push much more powerful because a high medivac, mine and upgraded bio can *only* be beaten but a strong hive tech army backed with infestors.
Not to mention nowadays terrans are relatively safe to do a quick in base 3rd CC. With no ability to put back pressure onto the terran due to reaper, hellions, big maps and eventually the mines and drops, zerg will be at a macro disadvantage. This is exactly how I feel. Muta/ling/bling for me is completely lacking in sustainability and if you don't open up a window for you to secure your 7/8th gas and transition into ultralisk it's going to be very difficult for you to win. What is the most aggravating about the new medivac is that if terran controls well then the drop cannot be punished. They can simply pick up and fly away! Even if you have mutas chasing the drop down - the medivac will manage to get more than halfway across the map before the mutas can even BEGIN to catch up with it at normal move speed (which opens up your ling/bling to a push from bio/mine). This, in combination with bio/mine allowing terran to take map control against your much more fragile composition, means that terran can easily expand on par with the zerg player. This is where it gets frustrating. For a zerg to compete, he needs to be up a base or more. If terran is on an equal number of bases (4+ is the rage inducing number), which they CAN take with bio/mine, then mules enable them to have a severe macro advantage and snowball out of control.
For those of you that feel like muta/ling/bling is lacking, I'd like to suggest a few ideas that I've been using in my muta/ling/bling play:
1) Less mutas. In WoL, it was all about making a big muta pack and cutting off reinforcements, etc., etc. In HotS, you want to make 8-12 mutas and STOP. Use the remaining gas to get infestors, upgrades, and hive tech up faster.
2) Be more aggressive with lings. Mass counterattacks will do well as long as you're continually sweeping for mines. Getting up overlord speed and burrow early means that you can do double blocks on terran and stress their multi-tasking to do double drops, clear creep, clear expansions, deal with runbys, etc.
3) Invest in more static defense and play defensively with a pack of lings. You should have 2 spores and spines at pretty much every base; this shuts down drops pretty hard or at least gives you plenty of time to catch up to it with your lings/mutas. In addition, it's become more and more obvious to me that you need to have 2 control groups of ling/bling. Having 2 control groups allows you to deal with drops in multiple locations, defend frontal pushes easier, set up flanks, etc., etc.
Basically: There's more actual multi-tasking involved with muta/ling now, but it's quite effective in the early parts of the midgame. It's always been the same way with muta/ling: you eventually have to switch to infestors to survive against terran pushes anyway. The only difference in HotS is that you need to switch a little faster. Also, ultras are stupid good now, as long as you can survive the midgame.
I believe that, as good as mutas are now, there's pretty much no reason not to make them now. I don't think there's any midgame solution as viable except perhaps crazy roach aggression.
|
I feel like Im the only terran who doesnt use mines at all in this world Fuck
|
On April 21 2013 15:11 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 14:40 ManiacTheZealot wrote:On April 21 2013 13:05 AlexanderDebois wrote: As a terran player I would simply stim my 2-2, or worse 3-3, maruaders with a medivac or two up to the spines. They then die in about .5 seconds. I don't really know how you would stop this..if there are mines right behind the marauders good luck getting close to them and they would probably kill the spines before you could react anyway. Interesting theory crafting but I do no think it could work. Do you know what else also dies in .5 seconds? All your marines and marauders while they try to kill off the spines. Why would the zerg let you walk up to his spines and kill them all for free? This sounds like a mistake from the zerg, not a good play by the terran. This is a bad point, please stop talking. MMMM > spines/ling/bling with no infestors. Zerglings have an attack range of ZERO. Again, you have yet to make a solid point in this thread aside from the vague indication that spines might be good at stopping mines.
Sorry to have wasted your time. I'll leave you to whatever it was you were doing before my post got in the way of your cursor. I tried to explain myself clearly. I offered examples and replays if there's anything else I can do for you let me know. I wanted to offer my ideas but also to get yours.
|
Russian Federation216 Posts
i've seen the game, and seen how casters noticed (several times) taht zerg doesnt inject larvae. why u blame mechanics while terran just outmacroed zerg? :O
|
On April 21 2013 14:56 ManiacTheZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 13:05 Qwyn wrote: For a zerg to compete, he needs to be up a base or more. If terran is on an equal number of bases (4+ is the rage inducing number), which they CAN take with bio/mine, then mules enable them to have a severe macro advantage and snowball out of control.
This seems to be a commonly held opinion of zergs who stay on lair tech to long. As you can see in the video simply trying to out produce terran at teir 2 is no longer possible. I'm pretty sure that nobody thinks flash and bboongs macro was lacking. IMO faster hive could solve this problem.
Faster hive without a 4th base solves nothing. You can't mass produce ultras off of 6 gas - you have to get that 7/8th gas in order to begin producing hive tech without being completely drained of gas for upgrades. If you start dumping all your money into ultras on 3 bases you're setting yourself up to get steamrolled. If you dump all your gas into hive tech upgrades you do not have enough gas to hold off constant terran aggression that occurs from the 11-14 minute mark and beyond. Your sole goal needs to be to secure the 4th so that you have enough gas to get hive tech upgrade dump and be producing the units you need to survive.
Staying on lair tech on three bases lends itself to the same problem - you are gas starved and get cut off on 2-2 while the mineral heavy terran is free to dump all his gas into upgrades.
|
United States4883 Posts
On April 22 2013 07:19 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 14:56 ManiacTheZealot wrote:On April 21 2013 13:05 Qwyn wrote: For a zerg to compete, he needs to be up a base or more. If terran is on an equal number of bases (4+ is the rage inducing number), which they CAN take with bio/mine, then mules enable them to have a severe macro advantage and snowball out of control.
This seems to be a commonly held opinion of zergs who stay on lair tech to long. As you can see in the video simply trying to out produce terran at teir 2 is no longer possible. I'm pretty sure that nobody thinks flash and bboongs macro was lacking. IMO faster hive could solve this problem. Faster hive without a 4th base solves nothing. You can't mass produce ultras off of 6 gas - you have to get that 7/8th gas in order to begin producing hive tech without being completely drained of gas for upgrades. If you start dumping all your money into ultras on 3 bases you're setting yourself up to get steamrolled. If you dump all your gas into hive tech upgrades you do not have enough gas to hold off constant terran aggression that occurs from the 11-14 minute mark and beyond. Your sole goal needs to be to secure the 4th so that you have enough gas to get hive tech upgrade dump and be producing the units you need to survive. Staying on lair tech on three bases lends itself to the same problem - you are gas starved and get cut off on 2-2 while the mineral heavy terran is free to dump all his gas into upgrades.
Perhaps I can lend an explanation. Maniac actually has a good point in that zerg eventually gets run over trading on 3 bases with terran. Part of this is due to how good and cost efficient mines can be coupled with the ease of constantly producing 4M and doing drops and pushes, etc.
I think you're right that a faster hive without a 4th base is weak. There's no way in hell you can afford to stay on 3 base against terran on 3 base with muta/ling, or you'll just eventually starve. However, spending more on other upgrades to make muta/ling better and getting a few infestors (tier 2) will allow you to stay on muta/ling for a bit longer and stay safe. Basically this means that you should be cutting a few mutas in favor of +2/+2 flyer upgrades, burrow, and overlord speed as well as getting 3-4 infestors.
In HotS, you don't need many mutas anymore because of how good their survivability is now. Generally, you should be making 8-12 and STOPPING, spending the rest of your gas on additional upgrades and faster infestors. Faster infestors allow you to deal with frontal assaults better while your mutas allow you to continue controlling drops. Muta upgrades allow a small flock of mutas to take on drops better. Burrow and overlord speed allow you to block terran expansions, do baneling landmines, force scans, and stress the multi-tasking of the terran player.
Also, sidenote: as Maniac kind of vaguely hinted at in the OP, try to replace a few lings with static defense at each base to prevent or delay drops. (Also, replace mutas if you lose them, but don't exceed ~16 at any point; I feel as if this is implied).
|
I forsee mines being a huge b:tch for Blizzard to balance.
Zerg at the top, top level can micro to somewhat neutralize them but casual players will never be able to accomplish that..
Hell, even mid-level pros can't.
|
On April 22 2013 11:43 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 07:19 Qwyn wrote:On April 21 2013 14:56 ManiacTheZealot wrote:On April 21 2013 13:05 Qwyn wrote: For a zerg to compete, he needs to be up a base or more. If terran is on an equal number of bases (4+ is the rage inducing number), which they CAN take with bio/mine, then mules enable them to have a severe macro advantage and snowball out of control.
This seems to be a commonly held opinion of zergs who stay on lair tech to long. As you can see in the video simply trying to out produce terran at teir 2 is no longer possible. I'm pretty sure that nobody thinks flash and bboongs macro was lacking. IMO faster hive could solve this problem. Faster hive without a 4th base solves nothing. You can't mass produce ultras off of 6 gas - you have to get that 7/8th gas in order to begin producing hive tech without being completely drained of gas for upgrades. If you start dumping all your money into ultras on 3 bases you're setting yourself up to get steamrolled. If you dump all your gas into hive tech upgrades you do not have enough gas to hold off constant terran aggression that occurs from the 11-14 minute mark and beyond. Your sole goal needs to be to secure the 4th so that you have enough gas to get hive tech upgrade dump and be producing the units you need to survive. Staying on lair tech on three bases lends itself to the same problem - you are gas starved and get cut off on 2-2 while the mineral heavy terran is free to dump all his gas into upgrades. Perhaps I can lend an explanation. Maniac actually has a good point in that zerg eventually gets run over trading on 3 bases with terran. Part of this is due to how good and cost efficient mines can be coupled with the ease of constantly producing 4M and doing drops and pushes, etc. I think you're right that a faster hive without a 4th base is weak. There's no way in hell you can afford to stay on 3 base against terran on 3 base with muta/ling, or you'll just eventually starve. However, spending more on other upgrades to make muta/ling better and getting a few infestors (tier 2) will allow you to stay on muta/ling for a bit longer and stay safe. Basically this means that you should be cutting a few mutas in favor of +2/+2 flyer upgrades, burrow, and overlord speed as well as getting 3-4 infestors. In HotS, you don't need many mutas anymore because of how good their survivability is now. Generally, you should be making 8-12 and STOPPING, spending the rest of your gas on additional upgrades and faster infestors. Faster infestors allow you to deal with frontal assaults better while your mutas allow you to continue controlling drops. Muta upgrades allow a small flock of mutas to take on drops better. Burrow and overlord speed allow you to block terran expansions, do baneling landmines, force scans, and stress the multi-tasking of the terran player. Also, sidenote: as Maniac kind of vaguely hinted at in the OP, try to replace a few lings with static defense at each base to prevent or delay drops. (Also, replace mutas if you lose them, but don't exceed ~16 at any point; I feel as if this is implied).
A couple things that I've been doing:
1. Taking a much earlier 4th and macro hatch. The gambit with an earlier 4th is that you have to be confident in your ability to defend terran aggression. 2. Sprinkling in roaches to inflate my supply in the midgame. I stop producing them around when my spire pops, as they're shitty against mass bio. But it greatly helps to offset the fragility of a ling/bane composition (especially since earlier terran aggression will consist mainly of mines and marines). 3. Since I'm getting the spire, I will go early hive straight into greater spire. I find broodlords to be far more powerful at dealing with bio/mine than ultras (which eat all the mine shots and then get focused down by marauders, as well as being poor to engage off creep). 4. Spreading creep to the edge of my main/borders of bases and sticking a few spores at the outer extremities (I'm not talking right by the hatch, I'm talking at the very edge of a terrain level). Far more effective at zoning drops. 5, I prefer to use a small pack of ling/bane with minimum crawlers. Reason being that two well placed spores and a queen will snipe the turbovac on the way out. Issue with mutas denying turbovacs is that you need them to hold off 10 minute aggression (I use roaches to pad against this first push, works well), not to mention the fact that they cannot close until after turbo-boost is out, leaving them out of position. 6. Burrowed ling and creep drop deny is also a very good practice, I have made a habit of getting an earlier burrow as well. 7. As for baneling landmines, yes, I use them, but I still cannot help but feel they are still somewhat of a gimmick. Mines lend themselves to a completely different dynamic since the entire 4M army is ranged.
|
I saw jeadong and other zergs do heavy zergling/roach which worked pretty well today. he kept a couple of roaches+overseer as a hit squad to assist at his base. I dunno if he made alot of static defence. If they ever release vods/replays u could try if it suits your playstyles. He didnt seem to have any trouble with 4m.
|
Hi,
I'm more of a warcraft 3 player (top 8 on na ladder) but I watch the starcraft 2 games and have a pretty good understanding of rts so perhaps i can contribute. (don't judge me too harshly QQ)
The biggest change from WoL to HoTS in TvZ is that terrans now go bio-widow mine instead of marine tank. The widow mine is a lot more flexible than siege tanks and terran can't really go tanks vs zerg anymore due to vipers. Bio-widow mine is stronger against zerglings, banelings and mutalisks than marine tank, but weaker against roaches, hydras, infestors, spine crawlers and queens. Yet most zergs insist on going zergling-baneling-mutalisk vs bio-widow mine, this seems to be the root of the problem.
Now i know that pro-zergs can make zergling-baneling-mutalisk-overseer work up to a very high level but even they seem to be struggling and it takes far more multitasking from the zerg player to deal with the widow mines than it does from the terran player to place them. Perhaps widow mines are slightly overpowered, but that is more for a balance issue and this seems to be a discussion about what zerg should do to deal with bio-widowmine.
Some have suggested hydra-roach-infestor, but i feel that this is just not cost effective enough once medivacs are out and has issues with drop play. Not to mention this is a very gas intensive strategy and dies if they have siege tanks (though siege tanks can be countered by vipers).
I feel like another problem is that many people are in this somewhat false mentality that zerg must always have 1 more base than the terran that originated from starcraft 1 (the main reason zerg had to do this in sc1 was because larva were extremely limited so zerg had to concentrate on larva efficient units like hydralisks, mutalisks or lurkers rather than drones or zerglings; a 3 base zerg would often have a lower mineral income and a higher gas income than a 2 base terran or protoss). This mentality is reflected in HoTS where we see zergs insisting that they have to go muta-baneling-zergling and trade cost-ineffectively in order to establisht their 4th base.
Here is my suggestion (please tell me why it won't work):
- Zerg should get the fast 3 bases as they do now (such as the 12 hatch into 4 queen build with zergling speed into 3rd).
- Zerg should get their roach warren to deal with hellion play as they do currently.
- However, instead of transitioning into either zergling-baneling or roach-hydralisk as the mineral dump, the zerg player goes roach-zergling (say at a 1:4 ratio) for the majority of the game to deal with terran upgrades. This also is very easy to transition into as you already have the infrastructure established and you get to avoid spending 450/400 for the hydralisk den + upgrades or 300/200 for the baneling-nest + ugprades. The zerglings allow the composition to be cost effective vs marine/marauder and the roaches will help vs hellbats, hellions or widow mines (the roaches are effective vs the widow mines since their range naturally separates them from the zerglings, they can take a mine hit without dying and their large radius helps them avoid splash).
- Zerg goes triple evolution chamber on 3 base. The ranged upgrades will even make the queens stronger against drops.
- Zerg should get the spire, but only get 8 in order to force some turrets and help deal with drops (as has been said by others in this thread). Zerg then transitions into infestor/roach/zergling, this should be the ideal midgame composition vs bio-widow mine.
- Zerg then stays on 3 bases for a while and instead gets a relatively fast hive for 3/3/3 upgrades, vipers and adrenal glands. (3 base ultras or brood lords wont work as said by others in this thread since you do not have enough gas). Since you do not take an early 4th, you are less spread out so it is much easier to deal with drop play. You can probably stay on 3 base for a while as the terran will mine out their main sooner than you due to mules and the terran can't spend all their gas since they have such a mineral heavy composition.
- Zerg can then get a 4th base after 3/3/3 and adrenal glands are started and then transition into either infestor-broodlord or ultra-ling if they want. However, perhaps it might be better to stay on a 3 base economy (only taking a 4th when the main starts to mine out, 5th when natural starts to mine out 6th when 3rd starts to mine out) and just work on denying the terran's 4th or performing roach/ling drops on the main until the terran player starts to mine out.
- As the original poster has said, spine crawler walls to stop a terran bio-widow mine push might be useful, but they are probably not going to be the ultimate solution and might be very map dependant.
- If you are upgrading ranged attack, then is producing 3/3 queens as a mineral dump in order to help deal with drops a good idea? If the zerg player goes infestor-roach-zergling as a composition, has fast upgrades and produces queens from the hatchery, is it possible to avoid spending the 350 minerals on the macro-hatchery? 3/3 queens with transfuse are fairly cost effective against pretty much anything and might open up the possibility of utilizing some late game nydus play (example: placing a nydus worm in the opponent's main to transport queens to combat while doing a roach/zergling drop in the terran's main).
|
^the reason why zerg has to be one base ahead is because their units will be eventually becomes more cost inefficient as upgrade gets closer. You have to have higher tech units that cost a lot of resources to commit. what zerg struggles the most is the drops. the drops give a lot of map control for the terran, they will have a great macro advantage and contain. Dealing with early mines is not the biggest problem, flanking for a surround can actually make the engagement quite effective for the zerg.
What is hard is the eventual non stopping drops due to the high economy and once the mines, medivac and bio count hit very high, if you don't have the economy and army, you will just get roll'd with very little opportunity to put pressure back onto the terran (because you have to keep denying drops, small pushes etc)
you can't have both early roach warren and early 3rd because both combined are tonnes of minerals investment and hellions are only used initially after reaper (to scout for all in while they get a macro in base 3rd cc), roach just scales horribly later on. The reason why people go for early roach is exactly to abuse this build order, but then it also means you are sac-ing your economy to do so.
what you are suggesting is almost impossible because you can't have so many upgrades, with muta, a fast hive and ultra, viper. you just won't be able to keep up with the terran advantage
A lot of zerg adds spine crawlers when they can afford it, zerg had always been doing so in wol. The problem is that you can't do it in a tight economy situation. You can only start adding when you have enough drones or else you are putting your macro even more behind.
The other unit composition is recommended by dimaga to Ret, one that I am experimenting a lot with as well, which is ling hydra into fast viper ultra. I personally add banelings in mid game but the gas allocation is proving to be a huge problem.
|
On April 21 2013 00:06 WedRine wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 00:01 KaiserKieran wrote: Well if you invest in stationary defenses, Terren drops will become so much more painful to deal with. Mines are a pain though. Hydra roach seems like the best composition to deal with bio mine. once they switch to tanks it might become a little harder to deal with. Roach/Hydralisk feels so inefficient vs. Bio/Mine, and it is certainly way less mobile. I think Zergling/Baneling/Infestor is good, later on a couple of Vipers are good for Blinding Cloud, you also have the upgrades if you want to go Ultralisks later on. Standard mm with tank is much stronger against roach / hydra than bio+mine (not counting viper) from my experience. Mine one shots lings and blings, barely does 25% damage to a roach.
|
United States4883 Posts
On April 22 2013 14:59 random_user07 wrote: Hi,
I'm more of a warcraft 3 player (top 8 on na ladder) but I watch the starcraft 2 games and have a pretty good understanding of rts so perhaps i can contribute. (don't judge me too harshly QQ)
The biggest change from WoL to HoTS in TvZ is that terrans now go bio-widow mine instead of marine tank. The widow mine is a lot more flexible than siege tanks and terran can't really go tanks vs zerg anymore due to vipers. Bio-widow mine is stronger against zerglings, banelings and mutalisks than marine tank, but weaker against roaches, hydras, infestors, spine crawlers and queens. Yet most zergs insist on going zergling-baneling-mutalisk vs bio-widow mine, this seems to be the root of the problem.
Now i know that pro-zergs can make zergling-baneling-mutalisk-overseer work up to a very high level but even they seem to be struggling and it takes far more multitasking from the zerg player to deal with the widow mines than it does from the terran player to place them. Perhaps widow mines are slightly overpowered, but that is more for a balance issue and this seems to be a discussion about what zerg should do to deal with bio-widowmine.
Some have suggested hydra-roach-infestor, but i feel that this is just not cost effective enough once medivacs are out and has issues with drop play. Not to mention this is a very gas intensive strategy and dies if they have siege tanks (though siege tanks can be countered by vipers).
I feel like another problem is that many people are in this somewhat false mentality that zerg must always have 1 more base than the terran that originated from starcraft 1 (the main reason zerg had to do this in sc1 was because larva were extremely limited so zerg had to concentrate on larva efficient units like hydralisks, mutalisks or lurkers rather than drones or zerglings; a 3 base zerg would often have a lower mineral income and a higher gas income than a 2 base terran or protoss). This mentality is reflected in HoTS where we see zergs insisting that they have to go muta-baneling-zergling and trade cost-ineffectively in order to establisht their 4th base.
Here is my suggestion (please tell me why it won't work):
- Zerg should get the fast 3 bases as they do now (such as the 12 hatch into 4 queen build with zergling speed into 3rd).
- Zerg should get their roach warren to deal with hellion play as they do currently.
- However, instead of transitioning into either zergling-baneling or roach-hydralisk as the mineral dump, the zerg player goes roach-zergling (say at a 1:4 ratio) for the majority of the game to deal with terran upgrades. This also is very easy to transition into as you already have the infrastructure established and you get to avoid spending 450/400 for the hydralisk den + upgrades or 300/200 for the baneling-nest + ugprades. The zerglings allow the composition to be cost effective vs marine/marauder and the roaches will help vs hellbats, hellions or widow mines (the roaches are effective vs the widow mines since their range naturally separates them from the zerglings, they can take a mine hit without dying and their large radius helps them avoid splash).
- Zerg goes triple evolution chamber on 3 base. The ranged upgrades will even make the queens stronger against drops.
- Zerg should get the spire, but only get 8 in order to force some turrets and help deal with drops (as has been said by others in this thread). Zerg then transitions into infestor/roach/zergling, this should be the ideal midgame composition vs bio-widow mine.
- Zerg then stays on 3 bases for a while and instead gets a relatively fast hive for 3/3/3 upgrades, vipers and adrenal glands. (3 base ultras or brood lords wont work as said by others in this thread since you do not have enough gas). Since you do not take an early 4th, you are less spread out so it is much easier to deal with drop play. You can probably stay on 3 base for a while as the terran will mine out their main sooner than you due to mules and the terran can't spend all their gas since they have such a mineral heavy composition.
- Zerg can then get a 4th base after 3/3/3 and adrenal glands are started and then transition into either infestor-broodlord or ultra-ling if they want. However, perhaps it might be better to stay on a 3 base economy (only taking a 4th when the main starts to mine out, 5th when natural starts to mine out 6th when 3rd starts to mine out) and just work on denying the terran's 4th or performing roach/ling drops on the main until the terran player starts to mine out.
- As the original poster has said, spine crawler walls to stop a terran bio-widow mine push might be useful, but they are probably not going to be the ultimate solution and might be very map dependant.
- If you are upgrading ranged attack, then is producing 3/3 queens as a mineral dump in order to help deal with drops a good idea? If the zerg player goes infestor-roach-zergling as a composition, has fast upgrades and produces queens from the hatchery, is it possible to avoid spending the 350 minerals on the macro-hatchery? 3/3 queens with transfuse are fairly cost effective against pretty much anything and might open up the possibility of utilizing some late game nydus play (example: placing a nydus worm in the opponent's main to transport queens to combat while doing a roach/zergling drop in the terran's main).
I'm just curious why you think roaches are more cost effective than banelings. I mean, yes, they do better against mines, but the biggest issue with mines is hits on banelings. Zerglings have a quick move speed and can avoid a lot of the damage from mines with a little micro; zerglings are actually quite good against mines. Both zerglings and roaches are cost INEFFICIENT against bio, which is why you get banelings and eventually infestors (splash damage). So I'm not quite understanding why roach/ling is better than ling/bling.
As for triple evo chambers, when are you getting these? After you have a sizeable roach/ling army? Or before? How do you afford the roaches then? (How do you afford anything when you're spending so much extra money on upgrades and a roach warren you might be able to skip? That's minerals that could be drones.) Late upgrades mean you'll probably be even or behind on upgrades compared to the terran player (which means you won't be trading very cost-effectively).
You say that after you're on 3 bases for a while, you have 3/3/3 and you get out vipers to secure your 4th while defending the constant pushing of a terran 4M player. Assuming you trade evenly over and over again, you now have vipers which help against 4M by doing...? (Vipers don't add anything to fighting 4M unless you get an incredibly lucky fungal on the entire army followed up by a blinding cloud.) Who is really starving at this point?
I've played some roach/hydra in ZvT some as well. I generally go for a 3-base macro play into a 14-15 minute maxed timing. The key thing is that you need to overwhelm your opponent in numbers EARLY because roach/hydra doesn't trade well against MMM. MMM is MUCH better against roach/hydra than it is against ling/bling. Even against mines, lings do fairly well. The biggest flaw with your theory is that you somehow assume that muta/ling is a bad composition against 4M...but it's actually pretty good as long as you have good control and strong multi-tasking.
The extra base idea in SC2 can be reduced to gas. Simply put, hive tech can't be sustained on only 6 gases. All of zerg's big, gas-heavy units live in hive tech (ultras, broods, vipers, infestors), which can't be sustained on only 8 gases, especially if you aren't able to trade cost efficiently before then. That being said, 3 base terran vs. 3 base zerg CANNOT work unless zerg is using Swarm Hosts to some degree. Terran can just keep pushing with 4M army over and over again until you just starve; if you get an earlier hive tech, terran can just keep trading STILL and slowly starve you out.
So...yeah. No.
|
the reason why zerg has to be one base ahead is because their units will be eventually becomes more cost inefficient as upgrade gets closer
I merely wanted to point out that by taking the 4th you are giving up some cost effectiveness since you need to stay on a less cost effective unit composition vs bio-widow mine (muta-baneling-zergling), have to engage in less favorable locations/are more spread out and are spending resources on the expansion that could be used on army or tech. I'm not denying that terran has an advantage in cost-efficiency, but it is possible to close the gap somewhat. Perhaps the current zerg metagame is sacrificing too much cost-efficiency for that early fourth and could benefit by delaying that fourth for an infestor/roach/ling composition and 3/3/3 upgrades, rather than staying on 2/2 and trying to keep 4 bases with muta/ling/baneling?
you can't have both early roach warren and early 3rd because both combined are tonnes of minerals investment and hellions are only used initially after reaper (to scout for all in while they get a macro in base 3rd cc),
I guess the term early is relative. I didn't want to suggest any changes to how zergs currently play the early game in order to establish a 3 base economy with speedlings and roaches. Just that because zergs will usually have these techs available, transioning to roach/ling is cheap.
what you are suggesting is almost impossible because you can't have so many upgrades, with muta, a fast hive and ultra, viper.
Maybe i was unclear because i think you misunderstand me. I specifically said that 3 base ultra ling isn't really viable; i was suggesting that zergs should do 3 base infestor/ling/roach with 8 mutalisks and a hive for 3/3/3 and adrenal glads (as well as the possibility of vipers in case of tanks). By going roaches instead of banelings, skipping mutalisk upgrades and skipping baneling tech you have the gas to get the 3/3/3 and adrenal glands (provided you don't over make infestors).
|
United States4883 Posts
On April 22 2013 16:25 random_user07 wrote:
I merely wanted to point out that by taking the 4th you are giving up some cost effectiveness since you need to stay on a less cost effective unit composition vs bio-widow mine (muta-baneling-zergling), have to engage in less favorable locations/are more spread out and are spending resources on the expansion that could be used on army or tech. I'm not denying that terran has an advantage in cost-efficiency, but it is possible to close the gap somewhat. Perhaps the current zerg metagame is sacrificing too much cost-efficiency for that early fourth and could benefit by delaying that fourth for an infestor/roach/ling composition and 3/3/3 upgrades, rather than staying on 2/2 and trying to keep 4 bases with muta/ling/baneling?
The suggestion I've put forward several times in this thread is staying on 8-12 mutas and getting out infestors faster while taking a 4th base, dumping excess minerals into static defense at each base. This solves pretty much all cost-efficiency problems without completely changing the entire way you play the matchup.
|
I'm just curious why you think roaches are more cost effective than banelings. I mean, yes, they do better against mines, but the biggest issue with mines is hits on banelings. Zerglings have a quick move speed and can avoid a lot of the damage from mines with a little micro; zerglings are actually quite good against mines. Both zerglings and roaches are cost INEFFICIENT against bio, which is why you get banelings and eventually infestors (splash damage). So I'm not quite understanding why roach/ling is better than ling/bling.
Well roaches are less gas intensive than banelings and you can skip the baneling nest and speed (allowing for faster infestors). Roaches are also better vs widow mines. While roach/zergling isn't cost effective vs bio, it isn't so cost ineffective that you cannot survive off it until infestors are out (though you will have to give up a fast 4th).
As for triple evo chambers, when are you getting these? After you have a sizeable roach/ling army? Or before? How do you afford the roaches then? (How do you afford anything when you're spending so much extra money on upgrades and a roach warren you might be able to skip? That's minerals that could be drones.) Late upgrades mean you'll probably be even or behind on upgrades compared to the terran player (which means you won't be trading very cost-effectively).
When you get the triple evo chamber depends on what the terran is doing. You don't necessarily have to get all 3 chambers at once (might be better to start with 1 for +1 carapace, add a 2nd for +1 melee and +1 range, then add a 3rd and lair for the 3 +2 upgrades simultaneously). Also you don't need the roach warren until after you have a 3 base economy established (unless the terran is doing some crazy aggression, or you want to put on some aggression to punish the terran) so you don't need to delay drones.
You say that after you're on 3 bases for a while, you have 3/3/3 and you get out vipers to secure your 4th while defending the constant pushing of a terran 4M player. Assuming you trade evenly over and over again, you now have vipers which help against 4M by doing...? (Vipers don't add anything to fighting 4M unless you get an incredibly lucky fungal on the entire army followed up by a blinding cloud.) Who is really starving at this point?
Vipers should only be used if the terran goes tanks since tanks counter roaches and infestors. Primarily you are getting the hive on 3 base economy for 4 upgrades: +3 melee, +3 range, +3 carapace, and adrenal glands.
Edit: sorry if i'm completely wrong about this, as said earlier i'm more of a wc3 player than an sc2 player.
|
|
|
|