On March 31 2013 14:18 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: Nice video, perfectly details this build! BTW it's tried and tested in TvP too
Likewise. It's working for me, for some reason, so far. I just poke with hellions, marine, scv, and hellbat/medic and drop an expo and go into 3 rax stim hell bat timing.
Of course it's vs bad protoss players. I'm still new to hots, about 70 games so far at ~640 pts masters ATM
Isn't it kind of coin flippy vs toss? Do you alter it vP or are you sticking to it?
How do you account for the MsC+stalker poke?
How do you respond to double gas before nexus when you don't scout the tech (proxy oracle is still pretty popular)?
I've had moderate success with this build TvT and TvZ too. Held two different games vs hatch gas pool baneling busts, and one game vs a proxy 2 rax reaper on Neo Planet.
I can say that when I do this versus Protoss(not my fav), if I scout 2x gas before tech my first two widows go to the left and right of my mineral line to snipe any oracles and proceed as planned. Also I automatically build a bunk so that zealot/stalker dont kill my 2 marines and end me.
ah ok; so you make mines instead of the first 2 hellions vs Toss and get a bunker at your ramp? I was wondering what changes you needed to make vs toss for this to work~
if you read the BO, it calls for 2 widow mines while your armory is building as a standard. Thus why I don't feel as threatened by the offensive options so much because between a bunker and mines either on the ramp or mineral line based on what you scout, it should be hard for really anything to properly damage you in TvT or TvP as bad as you are going to damage THEM.
Usually what happens wheen I get oracled is i love 2-3 SCVS then use my scvs to lure the oracle into one of the mines. Move the mine slightly next time and do the same trap if they come back.
On April 01 2013 02:23 iEchoic wrote: The pre-medivac-storage-hellbat-nerf hellbats weren't in the game long enough for people to learn how to counter them. This build is hard-countered (using a gasless expand such as 1rax FE or 14CC) by stacking a ball of marines directly in your mineral line and stutter-stepping the ball out of hellbat range as the drop comes. This even countered the stronger drop in the beta. Grab a friend and try it.
This build won't be as devastating once this counter becomes common, although I do agree that it obliterates gasless epxands when this preparation isn't already made.
Eh, they were in the game for too long i'd say. 4 hell bat drops were OP as hell. Just looking back at 4 hellbats in a medivac...every TvT was whoever hellbat dropped the most. It didn't matter if you were up a base, just hellbat drop, kill 20 workers, you're back in the game or just won it. And no marines did not counter it like you are saying, you'd just boost on top of them and get your freewin.
To be specific, we're talking about the 4 medivac hellbat rush build back in beta - I'm not debating the strength of 4 hellbats in a medivac in general.
That's what I thought too, and I said and tried the same thing, but it doesn't work. If you haven't tried the exact counter yourself, you won't understand. You have to have perfect marine production and have to have all of your marines sitting in the center of your mineral line when the attack comes. The amount of marines you can have by time the attack hits off a FE kills a medivac before you can unload hellbats within range to attack them, and any that are dropped out of range just get kited to death.
I ran hellbat drop in TvT throughout beta until I discovered this counter, and then I collected free wins from everyone who did it against me afterwards at GM level. That's not to say 4 hellbats in a medivac shouldn't have been nerfed (hellbat drops in the midgame were still stupid strong), but the hellbat rush was very counterable.
On March 31 2013 14:18 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: Nice video, perfectly details this build! BTW it's tried and tested in TvP too
Likewise. It's working for me, for some reason, so far. I just poke with hellions, marine, scv, and hellbat/medic and drop an expo and go into 3 rax stim hell bat timing.
Of course it's vs bad protoss players. I'm still new to hots, about 70 games so far at ~640 pts masters ATM
Isn't it kind of coin flippy vs toss? Do you alter it vP or are you sticking to it?
How do you account for the MsC+stalker poke?
How do you respond to double gas before nexus when you don't scout the tech (proxy oracle is still pretty popular)?
I've had moderate success with this build TvT and TvZ too. Held two different games vs hatch gas pool baneling busts, and one game vs a proxy 2 rax reaper on Neo Planet.
I can say that when I do this versus Protoss(not my fav), if I scout 2x gas before tech my first two widows go to the left and right of my mineral line to snipe any oracles and proceed as planned. Also I automatically build a bunk so that zealot/stalker dont kill my 2 marines and end me.
ah ok; so you make mines instead of the first 2 hellions vs Toss and get a bunker at your ramp? I was wondering what changes you needed to make vs toss for this to work~
if you read the BO, it calls for 2 widow mines while your armory is building as a standard. Thus why I don't feel as threatened by the offensive options so much because between a bunker and mines either on the ramp or mineral line based on what you scout, it should be hard for really anything to properly damage you in TvT or TvP as bad as you are going to damage THEM.
Usually what happens wheen I get oracled is i love 2-3 SCVS then use my scvs to lure the oracle into one of the mines. Move the mine slightly next time and do the same trap if they come back.
Yeah; the BO in the OP does call for 2 widow mines. I missed that because everyone else's analysis of the build has it getting 2 hellions, not widow mines. Although, imo, it does make more sense to get the mines vs Protoss.
On April 01 2013 02:23 iEchoic wrote: The pre-medivac-storage-hellbat-nerf hellbats weren't in the game long enough for people to learn how to counter them. This build is hard-countered (using a gasless expand such as 1rax FE or 14CC) by stacking a ball of marines directly in your mineral line and stutter-stepping the ball out of hellbat range as the drop comes. This even countered the stronger drop in the beta. Grab a friend and try it.
This build won't be as devastating once this counter becomes common, although I do agree that it obliterates gasless epxands when this preparation isn't already made.
Eh, they were in the game for too long i'd say. 4 hell bat drops were OP as hell. Just looking back at 4 hellbats in a medivac...every TvT was whoever hellbat dropped the most. It didn't matter if you were up a base, just hellbat drop, kill 20 workers, you're back in the game or just won it. And no marines did not counter it like you are saying, you'd just boost on top of them and get your freewin.
To be specific, we're talking about the 4 medivac hellbat rush build back in beta - I'm not debating the strength of 4 hellbats in a medivac in general.
That's what I thought too, and I said and tried the same thing, but it doesn't work. If you haven't tried the exact counter yourself, you won't understand. You have to have perfect marine production and have to have all of your marines sitting in the center of your mineral line when the attack comes. The amount of marines you can have by time the attack hits off a FE kills a medivac before you can unload hellbats within range to attack them, and any that are dropped out of range just get kited to death.
I ran hellbat drop in TvT throughout beta until I discovered this counter, and then I collected free wins from everyone who did it against me afterwards at GM level. That's not to say 4 hellbats in a medivac shouldn't have been nerfed (hellbat drops in the midgame were still stupid strong), but the hellbat rush was very counterable.
Wrong. It was not very counterable because the entire metagame was 100% based off of doing this drop or miracle defending it with a widow mine or hoping the person didn't know where the booster hotkey was on their keyboard.
You could boost into marines and kill them because the medivac could go from any angle. I suggest you try the unit tester or make your own map vs a GRANDMASTER/PRO player if you want to see your "marine counter" fail terribly.
Blizzard nerfed it because it was too powerful, it was too powerful TvP/TvZ, but it basically broke TvT, whether it was the "rush to hellbat drop" or mid-game hellbat drops. It was broken, hence why blizzard balanced it out by making hellbats take up more cargo room.
You may have had a magical counter on the NA server that worked against low masters Terrans, but everywhere above that level it was ridiculously broken and when the entire game is revolved around doing one thing, that is when you know it's "imbalanced." It's a moot point, they fixed it already.
On March 31 2013 14:18 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: Nice video, perfectly details this build! BTW it's tried and tested in TvP too
Likewise. It's working for me, for some reason, so far. I just poke with hellions, marine, scv, and hellbat/medic and drop an expo and go into 3 rax stim hell bat timing.
Of course it's vs bad protoss players. I'm still new to hots, about 70 games so far at ~640 pts masters ATM
Isn't it kind of coin flippy vs toss? Do you alter it vP or are you sticking to it?
How do you account for the MsC+stalker poke?
How do you respond to double gas before nexus when you don't scout the tech (proxy oracle is still pretty popular)?
I've had moderate success with this build TvT and TvZ too. Held two different games vs hatch gas pool baneling busts, and one game vs a proxy 2 rax reaper on Neo Planet.
I can say that when I do this versus Protoss(not my fav), if I scout 2x gas before tech my first two widows go to the left and right of my mineral line to snipe any oracles and proceed as planned. Also I automatically build a bunk so that zealot/stalker dont kill my 2 marines and end me.
ah ok; so you make mines instead of the first 2 hellions vs Toss and get a bunker at your ramp? I was wondering what changes you needed to make vs toss for this to work~
if you read the BO, it calls for 2 widow mines while your armory is building as a standard. Thus why I don't feel as threatened by the offensive options so much because between a bunker and mines either on the ramp or mineral line based on what you scout, it should be hard for really anything to properly damage you in TvT or TvP as bad as you are going to damage THEM.
Usually what happens wheen I get oracled is i love 2-3 SCVS then use my scvs to lure the oracle into one of the mines. Move the mine slightly next time and do the same trap if they come back.
Yeah; the BO in the OP does call for 2 widow mines. I missed that because everyone else's analysis of the build has it getting 2 hellions, not widow mines. Although, imo, it does make more sense to get the mines vs Protoss.
My mistake in not seeing how the BO in the OP is slightly different~ Personally, I would advocate the hellions over the widow mines in TvT.
@iEchoic: I'd kill to have a replay of Avilo (or anyone else) doing this build vs your marine counter off a FE. I'm kind of skeptical myself
Helions would be interesting actually. I usually goes mines because I find the meta usually dictates some type of pressure before just as your first hellbats pop up. I find alot of T doing either widow/mine drop or helion/marine pressure; i guess for the mine pressure the helions would be better as you can kite the mine activation to pick off marines and pull the helions back to repair amonst your pulled SCVS while your are free to send your drop off to test his multitasking. Probably better than trying to defend that with just less marines and no medivac.
watching forggs stream it seems like his opener is safe against this and has such a fast expansion that it offers a really cool macro way to play early hellbat drops that doesnt leave you far behind if you manage to fuck up and not do a good deal of damage.
His tvt looks so so solid anytime Ive seen him you should definitely check out his stream sometime. Its like a "reactor hellion" expo but with 2 hellions then 2 mines and then your armory is done so hellbats....he does hellbat drops like crazy whilst taking a 3rd cc and then adds on extra factories for mech play with a really early +1 attack from the armory
someone tried this build on me. I shut it down pretty hard with gas first banshee. I spotted the armory, double gas and reactors, built bunkers back at home in my mineral line, and went 2 vikings before raven. any kind of medivac opening would also let you see the armory and get vikings out in time. I wonder what cheese terrans will think of next
On April 03 2013 19:13 SHODAN wrote: someone tried this build on me. I shut it down pretty hard with gas first banshee. I spotted the armory, double gas and reactors, built bunkers back at home in my mineral line, and went 2 vikings before raven. any kind of medivac opening would also let you see the armory and get vikings out in time. I wonder what cheese terrans will think of next
Well, it sounds like their build accomplished way more than it should have because 1 bunker + 4 marines + 2 vikings and whatever else you had their equals one command center for the player with the medivacs.
If you can get someone to overbuild defense, then that basically is justifying the effectiveness of this build.
On April 03 2013 19:13 SHODAN wrote: someone tried this build on me. I shut it down pretty hard with gas first banshee. I spotted the armory, double gas and reactors, built bunkers back at home in my mineral line, and went 2 vikings before raven. any kind of medivac opening would also let you see the armory and get vikings out in time. I wonder what cheese terrans will think of next
Well, it sounds like their build accomplished way more than it should have because 1 bunker + 4 marines + 2 vikings and whatever else you had their equals one command center for the player with the medivacs.
If you can get someone to overbuild defense, then that basically is justifying the effectiveness of this build.
did you even watch the fucking replay? yes, I make 2 bunkers. with salvage that's a total of 50 minerals to stop a hardcore all-in. how can you say 50 minerals is an over-investment? and yes, I put them slap bang where they block half my SCVs from mining. It may sound extreme to you, but it's no different than pulling most of your drones to stop an 11/11. Sound's build is a very specific all-in that can only be stopped with a very specific defense. If you don't have a bunker/viking and your opponent has perfect pick-up micro you will lose the game.
I played against this strategy again. I shut it down the same way as before, bunkers in the mineral line then counter-attack with hellions. for what it's worth, my opponent was GM for the past few seasons his execution was good.
Yeah I shouldn't have posted haha. I've started to use this less on ladder as people tend to just blind-counter it with marine tank compositions...actually now i like to go back to banshee builds because a cloakshee owns marine/tank, you can kill so much, waste a ton of scan too.
On April 05 2013 19:49 Garmer wrote: i still think that mines drop is miles ahead of this, much faster and force detector
i think mine drops have really been losing strength against people whove played enough hots, you just have your army in you mineral line.
when doing this build you only have one mineral line to defend so mine drops shouldnt really be a problem, pretty sure you have enough stuff to even kill before burrow (or maybe just some of my opponents have not burrowed quick enough?)
Against mine drops I think you get the advantage that you lock down his mines with your hellions so when you move out with your hellbat drop he won't be hitting you any sooner, and you can always just micro around his mines if he does get them down, activate them with 2 scvs then surround pound.
Below high masters I think you can just keep making hellbats and medivacs off one base. Doing so relies on surprise, but its always fun to watch the enemy army melt under pure hellbat. Without medivac speed hellbat drops wouldn't be that good, but when you can outrun any ground unit it becomes easy to take the fights that you want.
So my one question would be about the 6:30 scan; if they see exactly what you're doing is it too late to stop or not? Also for the other side, if I scan at 6:30 and see this, how am I to deal with it?
I actually played a grandmaster on korean server and he did this exact same build vs me except he skips the 2 widow mines and i got crushed and Im still stump as to stop this build as protoss.
Diamond Terran here, and having the same problems against this build. Even if scouted, I find it very hard to stop unless you get good mine hits on the medivacs.
But will try that bunker in the mineral line though. I'm only Diamond so a solution(somewhat?) that doesn't require me to micro a sh*t ton or change my build drastically will definitely help. I prefer opening 1/1/1 into bio-tank btw.
EPT
