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On April 01 2013 22:02 SSVnormandy wrote:
and you can apply so much pression on weak time of this build applying constant pressure until you see the 7:00 mark coming when you back then your reapers defend just well and you were so annoying at the beginin that your opponent is completely behind you usually have 3 cc when ur hellbating opponent is only finishing his second cc and you control game with classic marine tank following abusing superior power of marine drop vs hellbat drop
What league are you guys playing in? Reaper heavy/marauders @ 7:30 play vs a build like this? Don't mean to be insulting but I have played this build vs reaper openings and I actually prefer it to pretty much any other opening because everything else will be later then a factory opening; reapers may outrange hellbats but they don't outspeed medivacs and they don't hit air; so if you have 2-3 reapers, your going to take 30 damage a shot against the hellbats dropping on your reapers, and reaper DPS is so low that it's hard to kill 4 hellbats without your opponent doing massive damage. And while marauders may hold this, no one in diamond/masters/gm is building marauders before the 7:30 mark, because they are too gas expensive for what you get for them(which is safety against a build you really have no way of knowing is coming). Also as long as you prepare adequately for reapers and don't get completely caught out by the first two, your mines should be out in time to be able to defend your base and deny the reapers spotting the armory(assuming you dont just stick it next to the cliff).
For those of you who say this build is easy to scout, try hiding your armory better. Most people I speak to after I crush their bones into the dirt with this build will be like "WTF I thought it was widows", because the build looks like a widow mine drop if they do end up hitting a money scan. You can make the illusion worse by setting up your units/mines at your natural ramp so that they can't just stroll in to see you haven't expanded. Also hiding your production at the periphery of your base is highly recommended.
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On April 01 2013 19:07 LardMaster wrote:
Anyone tried this with success against protoss?
It worked a few times but I wouldn't recommend it as a "go-to" as 1-2 stalkers, a zealot and the nexus cannon will make it very hard to outright kill a Protoss in the same way that you can a Terran. I would recommend doing this build if you were doing a gas build and you see your opponent only taking 1 gas then nexus. you are very open to oracle openings/early gateway timings, especially with an oracle because your base defence is 2 marines and 2 widow mines, and in order to get a CC you probably won't have an ebay in time. Although I have tried rallying those first two vikings over my mineral line so that if the reaper comes in i have atleast 1 widow and 2 flying units to shut it down with minimal losses.
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doing 3 rax reaper opening in master league never loose vs hellbat drop ever and at 7:30 if you got 2-3 reaper you basically openend 1 rax reaper which is not what i call a "heavy" reaper opening at that time i usually have more than 9 reapers and you dont have 4 hellbat as you have to defend first. and with hellbat opening u will definitively trade not cost efficient early on vs heavy reaper opening
i would be glad you precise what you called reaper opening to be sure we are on the same foot here . because you can open reaper from 1 ,2 ,3 or even 5 rax / reactored rax and this number of production facility will change everything because reaper will evolve from scouting / map control to early damage to early allin
Note : on one base you can produce 4 /5 reaper at the same time with two gas
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On April 02 2013 00:10 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2013 19:07 LardMaster wrote:
Anyone tried this with success against protoss? It worked a few times but I wouldn't recommend it as a "go-to" as 1-2 stalkers, a zealot and the nexus cannon will make it very hard to outright kill a Protoss in the same way that you can a Terran. I would recommend doing this build if you were doing a gas build and you see your opponent only taking 1 gas then nexus. you are very open to oracle openings/early gateway timings, especially with an oracle because your base defence is 2 marines and 2 widow mines, and in order to get a CC you probably won't have an ebay in time. Although I have tried rallying those first two vikings over my mineral line so that if the reaper comes in i have atleast 1 widow and 2 flying units to shut it down with minimal losses.
I did that exactly earlier. On Whirlwind I saw a one gate expo with scout and did this build. I lost due to terrible control and they saw it coming because they went ungodly fast robo, but it defo could have caused a lot of damage, especially dropping one in each mineral line, which I think may be more effective.
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On April 02 2013 00:39 SSVnormandy wrote:
doing 3 rax reaper opening in master league never loose vs hellbat drop ever and at 7:30 if you got 2-3 reaper you basically openend 1 rax reaper which is not what i call a "heavy" reaper opening at that time i usually have more than 9 reapers and you dont have 4 hellbat as you have to defend first. and with hellbat opening u will definitively trade not cost efficient early on vs heavy reaper opening
i would be glad you precise what you called reaper opening to be sure we are on the same foot here . because you can open reaper from 1 ,2 ,3 or even 5 rax / reactored rax and this number of production facility will change everything because reaper will evolve from scouting / map control to early damage to early allin
Note : on one base you can produce 4 /5 reaper at the same time with two gas
People do that many reapers at this level? Never seen it myself, obviously going to change my build if I see such a fat all in strategy coming at me..probably would just produce straight widow mines + a cloakshee and laugh straight to the bank.
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What do you do when playing this build and your opponent does a 1-1-1 marine tank viking (or banshee) push?
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On April 02 2013 08:00 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
What do you do when playing this build and your opponent does a 1-1-1 marine tank viking (or banshee) push?
Haven't played anyone who did the old school 1-1-1 but mines Marines and Vikings would work ok, obv hellbats would be an epic fail.
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People. You boost the medivac around and drop on top of the accompanying units. Roast the marines and get out. What's a marine tank banshee or viking push with little to no marines? Uh, pull a few SCVs, split, and focus fire and bounce around, and clear his high investment and you're ahead or on even ground. When I do it, and I suspect air play coming, I get a viking or two of my own to zone out some counter drops or banshee harass.
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i have been coming unstuck with this build a few times but i think its my execution rather than a problem with the build, not utilising boost to drop onto units enough and getting kited.
do you guys after the initial 4 hellbats and 2 medivacs what do you make next, do you make as well as 2 more hellbats 1 medivac and 1 viking, 2 medivacs or 2 vikings?
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On April 02 2013 16:34 ThePianoDentist wrote:
i have been coming unstuck with this build a few times but i think its my execution rather than a problem with the build, not utilising boost to drop onto units enough and getting kited.
do you guys after the initial 4 hellbats and 2 medivacs what do you make next, do you make as well as 2 more hellbats 1 medivac and 1 viking, 2 medivacs or 2 vikings?
I'm just watching Nathanias' stream and he just kept making medivacs and hellbats and dropping over and over again. He made CCs when he got the minerals and then just threw down more factories once he was finally done with the harass.
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On April 01 2013 02:23 iEchoic wrote:
The pre-medivac-storage-hellbat-nerf hellbats weren't in the game long enough for people to learn how to counter them. This build is hard-countered (using a gasless expand such as 1rax FE or 14CC) by stacking a ball of marines directly in your mineral line and stutter-stepping the ball out of hellbat range as the drop comes. This even countered the stronger drop in the beta. Grab a friend and try it.
This build won't be as devastating once this counter becomes common, although I do agree that it obliterates gasless epxands when this preparation isn't already made.
Eh, they were in the game for too long i'd say. 4 hell bat drops were OP as hell. Just looking back at 4 hellbats in a medivac...every TvT was whoever hellbat dropped the most. It didn't matter if you were up a base, just hellbat drop, kill 20 workers, you're back in the game or just won it. And no marines did not counter it like you are saying, you'd just boost on top of them and get your freewin.
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One guy that I faced held it pretty well with a ton of marines that he split so I could only hit one at a time, he eventually finished stim and ended the push. This was even after I landed on his marineball killing most of his army. Didn't look easy though.
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Eh, they were in the game for too long i'd say. 4 hell bat drops were OP as hell. Just looking back at 4 hellbats in a medivac...every TvT was whoever hellbat dropped the most. It didn't matter if you were up a base, just hellbat drop, kill 20 workers, you're back in the game or just won it. And no marines did not counter it like you are saying, you'd just boost on top of them and get your freewin.
agreed, the 2 hellbat medivac allow terran to counter it with some composition because the difference between having two hellbat and 4 is pretty huge. You can deal with smaller defend troop and you can actually save SCV and defend effectively 2 base whereas with 4 hellbats it was a true nightmare.
People do that many reapers at this level? Never seen it myself, obviously going to change my build if I see such a fat all in strategy coming at me..probably would just produce straight widow mines + a cloakshee and laugh straight to the bank.
Love theorycrafting but you should experiment vs a strategy before talking about it. First, going 3 rax reaper before CC is not allin and you have plenty minerals to expand sooner that any 1/1/1 build. And second reapers are pretty effective for scouting purpose so it's actually quiet easy to see banshee/otherstuff coming. Not saying you are ahead vs banshee but you can defend it with proper reaction/scouting. I wouldn't be so arrogant using theroycrafting as the metagame is not figured out yet.
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On April 02 2013 18:48 MHT wrote:
One guy that I faced held it pretty well with a ton of marines that he split so I could only hit one at a time, he eventually finished stim and ended the push. This was even after I landed on his marineball killing most of his army. Didn't look easy though.
You mind if I see that replay please?
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On April 02 2013 18:57 LardMaster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2013 18:48 MHT wrote:
One guy that I faced held it pretty well with a ton of marines that he split so I could only hit one at a time, he eventually finished stim and ended the push. This was even after I landed on his marineball killing most of his army. Didn't look easy though. You mind if I see that replay please?
Can post it later at work now.
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On April 02 2013 18:52 SSVnormandy wrote:Show nested quote +Eh, they were in the game for too long i'd say. 4 hell bat drops were OP as hell. Just looking back at 4 hellbats in a medivac...every TvT was whoever hellbat dropped the most. It didn't matter if you were up a base, just hellbat drop, kill 20 workers, you're back in the game or just won it. And no marines did not counter it like you are saying, you'd just boost on top of them and get your freewin. agreed, the 2 hellbat medivac allow terran to counter it with some composition because the difference between having two hellbat and 4 is pretty huge. You can deal with smaller defend troop and you can actually save SCV and defend effectively 2 base whereas with 4 hellbats it was a true nightmare. Show nested quote +People do that many reapers at this level? Never seen it myself, obviously going to change my build if I see such a fat all in strategy coming at me..probably would just produce straight widow mines + a cloakshee and laugh straight to the bank. Love theorycrafting but you should experiment vs a strategy before talking about it. First, going 3 rax reaper before CC is not allin and you have plenty minerals to expand sooner that any 1/1/1 build. And second reapers are pretty effective for scouting purpose so it's actually quiet easy to see banshee/otherstuff coming. Not saying you are ahead vs banshee but you can defend it with proper reaction/scouting. I wouldn't be so arrogant using theroycrafting as the metagame is not figured out yet.
I'm not being arrogant I'm just saying I stopped seeing stats like this once I finished my placement matches. I also fail to see how spending 200+ gas and 600 minerals on a tier1 scout unit is not all in. Unless you kill or seriously disable someone doing a 1/1/1 expand the tech advantage is enormous...
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On April 02 2013 08:00 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
What do you do when playing this build and your opponent does a 1-1-1 marine tank viking (or banshee) push?
I had something similar happen to me, was either diamond or a masters terran, cant remember off the top of my head. He went Rax, fact, rax, like the old school marine/tank push super early. Assuming he doesn't push until he has his second tank, with his third rally'd, you should be able to drop anyways, do significant damage, and pull his army back to try to defend... unless he doesn't i guess and just goes for it as all-in. Basically if you scout it, swap the barracks back onto the reactor and build a tech lab on your factory and start seige tanks, map dependent you should be able to get at least one out before he hits your base. Or even make 2 widow mines as your barracks makes a tech lab for your factory. It's a very flexible build considering you're also 1/1/1. I had scouted his build, and right as he started to move out I dropped his scv line. After killing as many scv's as I could quickly, I boosted back to my base with my 4 hellbats, right as my first tank completed he got to my ramp, walked into 2 widow mines, and between my scv pull, and my marines, combined with dropping my hellbats right onto his army as well, it was a pretty easy hold. After that, boost away and drop him again while you get your economy going again. If there's a banshee, having those extra widow mines, and a viking right after your medevac should be able to deal with it easily as well.
I'd imagine due to the flexibility of your own 1/1/1 you should be just fine as long as you know what's coming at you.
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On March 31 2013 14:35 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 14:18 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:Nice video, perfectly details this build! BTW it's tried and tested in TvP too  Likewise. It's working for me, for some reason, so far. I just poke with hellions, marine, scv, and hellbat/medic and drop an expo and go into 3 rax stim hell bat timing. Of course it's vs bad protoss players. I'm still new to hots, about 70 games so far at ~640 pts masters ATM
Isn't it kind of coin flippy vs toss? Do you alter it vP or are you sticking to it?
How do you account for the MsC+stalker poke?
How do you respond to double gas before nexus when you don't scout the tech (proxy oracle is still pretty popular)?
I've had moderate success with this build TvT and TvZ too. Held two different games vs hatch gas pool baneling busts, and one game vs a proxy 2 rax reaper on Neo Planet.
Also, gosubuilds.com has a nice write up on this build with some additional info provided. http://www.gosubuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvt/tvt-4-hellbat-drop/
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On April 02 2013 21:01 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 14:35 iAmJeffReY wrote:On March 31 2013 14:18 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:Nice video, perfectly details this build! BTW it's tried and tested in TvP too Likewise. It's working for me, for some reason, so far. I just poke with hellions, marine, scv, and hellbat/medic and drop an expo and go into 3 rax stim hell bat timing. Of course it's vs bad protoss players. I'm still new to hots, about 70 games so far at ~640 pts masters ATM Isn't it kind of coin flippy vs toss? Do you alter it vP or are you sticking to it? How do you account for the MsC+stalker poke? How do you respond to double gas before nexus when you don't scout the tech (proxy oracle is still pretty popular)? I've had moderate success with this build TvT and TvZ too. Held two different games vs hatch gas pool baneling busts, and one game vs a proxy 2 rax reaper on Neo Planet. Also, gosubuilds.com has a nice write up on this build with some additional info provided. http://www.gosubuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvt/tvt-4-hellbat-drop/
I can say that when I do this versus Protoss(not my fav), if I scout 2x gas before tech my first two widows go to the left and right of my mineral line to snipe any oracles and proceed as planned. Also I automatically build a bunk so that zealot/stalker dont kill my 2 marines and end me.
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On April 03 2013 01:19 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2013 21:01 Joedaddy wrote:On March 31 2013 14:35 iAmJeffReY wrote:On March 31 2013 14:18 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:Nice video, perfectly details this build! BTW it's tried and tested in TvP too Likewise. It's working for me, for some reason, so far. I just poke with hellions, marine, scv, and hellbat/medic and drop an expo and go into 3 rax stim hell bat timing. Of course it's vs bad protoss players. I'm still new to hots, about 70 games so far at ~640 pts masters ATM Isn't it kind of coin flippy vs toss? Do you alter it vP or are you sticking to it? How do you account for the MsC+stalker poke? How do you respond to double gas before nexus when you don't scout the tech (proxy oracle is still pretty popular)? I've had moderate success with this build TvT and TvZ too. Held two different games vs hatch gas pool baneling busts, and one game vs a proxy 2 rax reaper on Neo Planet. Also, gosubuilds.com has a nice write up on this build with some additional info provided. http://www.gosubuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvt/tvt-4-hellbat-drop/ I can say that when I do this versus Protoss(not my fav), if I scout 2x gas before tech my first two widows go to the left and right of my mineral line to snipe any oracles and proceed as planned. Also I automatically build a bunk so that zealot/stalker dont kill my 2 marines and end me.
ah ok; so you make mines instead of the first 2 hellions vs Toss and get a bunker at your ramp? I was wondering what changes you needed to make vs toss for this to work~
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EPT
