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Math on Widow Mines -- How STLife Dodged the Shots - Page 2

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 11 12 13 Next All
W0L0L0
Profile Joined January 2012
France23 Posts
March 19 2013 15:56 GMT
#21
Awesome job !
I had a similar feelings without being able to explaining it, thanks to you i know.
Wonder if top players, other than life, will start using this information in their gameplay.
skyafterrain
Profile Joined November 2010
Thailand22 Posts
March 19 2013 16:02 GMT
#22
Hope Blizzard will change the mine mechanics soon, I would suggest the mine will always shoot the locked target although it runs out of radius.
There is nothing either right or wrong but thinking makes it so
xaeravoq
Profile Joined October 2012
50 Posts
March 19 2013 16:08 GMT
#23
this is not hard to figure out if you play the game...
StagaDish
Profile Joined February 2013
United States9 Posts
March 19 2013 16:12 GMT
#24
On March 20 2013 01:02 skyafterrain wrote:
Hope Blizzard will change the mine mechanics soon, I would suggest the mine will always shoot the locked target although it runs out of radius.


Why won't we suggest blizzard that hellbats should fly while we're at it?
Practice Makes Perfect
TiTanIum_
Profile Joined August 2011
Brazil1335 Posts
March 19 2013 16:22 GMT
#25
On March 20 2013 01:12 StagaDish wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 01:02 skyafterrain wrote:
Hope Blizzard will change the mine mechanics soon, I would suggest the mine will always shoot the locked target although it runs out of radius.


Why won't we suggest blizzard that hellbats should fly while we're at it?


Both suggestions are bad, but something must be done taking these calculations. Mines were designed to stop zerglings, and making it so easy to disable them should not be possible. But then again, terrans will figure out way to stop what zergs are doing, either through positioning, composition or micro, and that's why this game is so beautiful.
TheDougler
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada8304 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-19 16:28:37
March 19 2013 16:25 GMT
#26
On March 20 2013 00:51 StagaDish wrote:
Lone, we might have to call you "The DeWidower" from now on...


Widow Un-maker.

Edit:

Also fuck me this is awesome. I love that people have to learn speed - widow mine range benchmarks to reach a higher level of play. It was shitty as a Flash fan to see, but I'm glad somebody has been able to figure out so precisely what happened.
I root for Euro Zergs, NA Protoss* and Korean Terrans. (Any North American who has beat a Korean Pro as Protoss counts as NA Toss)
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
March 19 2013 16:29 GMT
#27
On March 20 2013 01:22 TiTanIum_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 01:12 StagaDish wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:02 skyafterrain wrote:
Hope Blizzard will change the mine mechanics soon, I would suggest the mine will always shoot the locked target although it runs out of radius.


Why won't we suggest blizzard that hellbats should fly while we're at it?


Both suggestions are bad, but something must be done taking these calculations. Mines were designed to stop zerglings, and making it so easy to disable them should not be possible. But then again, terrans will figure out way to stop what zergs are doing, either through positioning, composition or micro, and that's why this game is so beautiful.


Maybe drilling claws should make the mines acquire targets just a bit quicker to avoid this issue?
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
March 19 2013 16:30 GMT
#28
Great job on actually calculating this. Though I'm a little confused about the reactions. I thought it was common knowledge that you can pass mines like this...
TigerKarl
Profile Joined November 2010
1757 Posts
March 19 2013 16:32 GMT
#29
quality post. thank you!
StagaDish
Profile Joined February 2013
United States9 Posts
March 19 2013 16:37 GMT
#30
On March 20 2013 01:22 TiTanIum_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 01:12 StagaDish wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:02 skyafterrain wrote:
Hope Blizzard will change the mine mechanics soon, I would suggest the mine will always shoot the locked target although it runs out of radius.


Why won't we suggest blizzard that hellbats should fly while we're at it?


Both suggestions are bad, but something must be done taking these calculations. Mines were designed to stop zerglings, and making it so easy to disable them should not be possible. But then again, terrans will figure out way to stop what zergs are doing, either through positioning, composition or micro, and that's why this game is so beautiful.


I was being cynical. The widow-mine is a very strong and almost imba unit (almost, because now it seem like we got a semi-solution that, as always, requires extreme skills out of zergs players).
If anything, this unit should be nerffed, not buffed.
HotS is no longer a game of a-move. Stop looking for self-microing units.
Practice Makes Perfect
Afterhours
Profile Joined March 2010
United States125 Posts
March 19 2013 16:45 GMT
#31
Awesome post. Awesome insight on Life's play vs WM's. =)
http://i.imgur.com/pHvpBxx.gif
People_0f_Color
Profile Joined August 2010
177 Posts
March 19 2013 16:48 GMT
#32
All terran has to do agains this is keep a zerg in the path a bit longer. I think we will see really unique play to do this. People will sac a marine or marauder in a widowmine field to keep enemy units there for longer.
nottapro
Profile Joined August 2012
202 Posts
March 19 2013 17:13 GMT
#33
On March 20 2013 00:09 Ahli wrote:
I made an Example image with Speedlings on creep not activating mine.

The ling in the south enters the range first, but leaves it. This allows the rest of the speedlings to directly travel over the mine.


I hope they fix the widow mine so its not so easily countered by speedlings.
Lobotomist
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1541 Posts
March 19 2013 17:13 GMT
#34
wow. and this is why team liquid is the best. This mechanic, whether intentional or not, is kind of cool
Teching to hive too quickly isn't just a risk: it's an ultrarisk
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
March 19 2013 17:17 GMT
#35
Well I'm going to spotlight this thread because its PSA worthy.
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
moQbara
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Romania76 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-19 17:19:44
March 19 2013 17:19 GMT
#36
Very nice job starting this thread. However, I do feel like there are some things not covered. Most importantly, I think you should analyze unit speed more carefully, based on the direction of travel.

SC2 shape theory - it explains how I came up with the picture below. Skip if you don't care about it .
+ Show Spoiler +

As I understand it, the model behind starcraft 2 has a square based hex grid (i.e.: what we see when building new stuff). That is what the game engine uses for distance calculations (1 such square is 1 unit of distance).

Because of this, a radius of 5 will not actually be a circle with a diameter of 10 units. It will actually be a square-cornered shape, defined by the grid units which are covered by an imaginary circle of radius 5+ half of the size of the modeled unit generating it. A widow mine (I think) covers a single grid unit, so it will be a circle of 5+0.5 grid units.

I assume the "rules" are just like with everything else - round up to nearest integers. Therefore, every cell covered more than 50% will be part of the "radius".
Here's an approximation of what I tried to explain:


http://i.imgur.com/CdgfsjV.png

Theoretically, being a "circle" a unit should pass it just as fast in any direction. However, given the actual shape and the addition of the unit hex, we can calculate that for a unit with a speed of 1 it will take:

- 11 seconds to clear the mine field, assuming it moves on the E6-O6 path (11 hexes total)
- ~9.9 seconds, assuming it moves on the F2 -> N10 path (~9.89 hexes total)

Your original formula assumes the unit path through the "minefield" is a chord in a 5-radius circle. However:
- the circle has a radius of 5.5
- the circle is not a circle, but a irregular shape, with square corners

Therefore, the formula is a lot more complex, having to take into account this "real" shape. For example, it the unit travels parallel to the grid sides (either perfectly horizontal or vertical), it will spend exactly the same amout of time in the minefield, regardless if it's passing over the hexes which contain the mine, or over / under it by 1 hex.

Please let me know if this makes sense to you or if I'm badly wrong about it .
I am a noob
KrazyTrumpet
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2520 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-19 17:36:24
March 19 2013 17:23 GMT
#37
On March 20 2013 02:19 moQbara wrote:
Very nice job starting this thread. However, I do feel like there are some things not covered. Most importantly, I think you should analyze unit speed more carefully, based on the direction of travel.

SC2 shape theory - it explains how I came up with the picture below. Skip if you don't care about it .
+ Show Spoiler +

As I understand it, the model behind starcraft 2 has a square based hex grid (i.e.: what we see when building new stuff). That is what the game engine uses for distance calculations (1 such square is 1 unit of distance).

Because of this, a radius of 5 will not actually be a circle with a diameter of 10 units. It will actually be a square-cornered shape, defined by the grid units which are covered by an imaginary circle of radius 5+ half of the size of the modeled unit generating it. A widow mine (I think) covers a single grid unit, so it will be a circle of 5+0.5 grid units.

I assume the "rules" are just like with everything else - round up to nearest integers. Therefore, every cell covered more than 50% will be part of the "radius".
Here's an approximation of what I tried to explain:


http://i.imgur.com/CdgfsjV.png

Theoretically, being a "circle" a unit should pass it just as fast in any direction. However, given the actual shape and the addition of the unit hex, we can calculate that for a unit with a speed of 1 it will take:

- 11 seconds to clear the mine field, assuming it moves on the E6-O6 path (11 hexes total)
- ~9.9 seconds, assuming it moves on the F2 -> N10 path (~9.89 hexes total)

Your original formula assumes the unit path through the "minefield" is a chord in a 5-radius circle. However:
- the circle has a radius of 5.5
- the circle is not a circle, but a irregular shape, with square corners

Therefore, the formula is a lot more complex, having to take into account this "real" shape. For example, it the unit travels parallel to the grid sides (either perfectly horizontal or vertical), it will spend exactly the same amout of time in the minefield, regardless if it's passing over the hexes which contain the mine, or over / under it by 1 hex.

Please let me know if this makes sense to you or if I'm badly wrong about it .


While this is likely spot on, I don't feel the added complexity to get the fully accurate picture is necessary to understand the Widow Mine mechanics and be able to use them to your advantage. OP's method should be more than sufficient for even high level play.
www.twitch.tv/krazy Best Stream Quality NA @KClarkSC2
Ryndika
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1489 Posts
March 19 2013 17:29 GMT
#38
Does the mine take closest target or random target in range?
as useful as teasalt
garlicface
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada4196 Posts
March 19 2013 17:32 GMT
#39
Well if mines ever become too easy to avoid, and Blizzard lets them remain the same forever, then we can still count on map makers to create maps with thinner chokes and more doodads. And although it would be obvious, Terrans can build structures at the edge of the mine's radius to prevent units from running through minefields in straight lines.

It's funny thinking back to game 4 between Life and Flash now and seeing how easy it would have been for Flash to get his mines to trigger. Rather than pulling back entire squads of marines and giving Life a clear path to run through his mines, he could have left his back row (~4 marines) to impede the path of the lings.

This kind of information is really cool, because I can only imagine it increasing the amount/types of micro required in battles where mines are involved.
#TeamBuLba
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
March 19 2013 17:37 GMT
#40
so leading with a unit on the edge of the range and then getting out to create a targeting delay, allowing for a mass of quick units to go through safely - dewidowing.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
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