On March 21 2013 19:54 Veriol wrote: All the stupid hate on OP "Life knew nothing about this" etc.. Wtf?! He probably went like "hmm if I run fast from mines they wont explode" and used it. Ofcourse he didnt use math - he doesnt care, if it works it works. The fact someone just explained us exactly how it works should be praised not damned.
And for the title of the thread .. quite simple if it wasnt for "how ST_life dodged the shots" most of you wouldnt even open the thread nor read it
The thing is Life never did at all what he is indicating, he just kept blowing them up with 1-few lings at a time, that is atleast why I dislike the title of the thread. It's like saying "Flash won MLG winter", it has the same amount of truth to it.
I'm not dissing on the math that the OP did, it's quite interesting actually, but to draw people in with a lie I don't like.
Would this also be useful for blink stalkers? You could queue up a blink train like you do to go up/down cliffs between your bases. Of course, you better make sure there aren't any other terran units on the other side.
On March 21 2013 22:38 KillingVector wrote: Would this also be useful for blink stalkers? You could queue up a blink train like you do to go up/down cliffs between your bases. Of course, you better make sure there aren't any other terran units on the other side.
You can just run there with a stalker, trigger the mine, blink out. You dodge the damage.
It might be fine if you had to do something very specific to trigger it, but you don't. If Life managed to trigger this behaviour it wasn't likely on purpose. It's the exact type of thing that you do by accident trying to do something else:
You box one cheap fast unit, and click on the other side of the mine field by itself. Then wait 1 second and send your massive ball over them. The logic is that your one unit will trigger the mines and put them all on cooldown. However, lo-and-behold that because the pathing worked out in a certain way, and the first zergling clips the side of all the mines range, all the zerglings make it over the mines without any of them detonating.
It's something that even a bronze player might do by complete accident without knowing that they are even pulling off a trick. It's even technically possible that it happens 100% by chance just because of the formation the units were in when they were selected.
People seem to be making the argument that the solution to this is staggering the mines that it's harder to move over them. However, that isn't a viable solution because the units have a cost. The moment you need to stagger them you are spending at least twice as many resources to secure the same amount of area. I don't have time to make pretty pictures right now to show that, but you should be able to figure it out. This makes them WAY less useful at their initial intended goal of area denial. Especially early game when production/resources/supply is at a premium.
The argument that it's a micro war doesn't hold too much weight in my mind because of how lopsided the effort it is. Someone can exploit mines all over the map, by accident or not, easily simply by repositioning troops and then a-moving while they micro other things. However, a Terran needs to pick ONE mine on the entire map, and spend multiple seconds spending all their attention clicking with it. Hoping that they picked the right mine the whole time.
I could be wrong, but it's not something I expect blizzard to keep around. They don't like mechanics that aren't immediately obvious, and don't make sense to someone who doesn't follow the game closely. They've removed things that were much less broken looking because of this fact.
Also with widow mines, more and more Zerg players will begin to make them useless by blowing banelings up over them. I think this spat of everyone using them should be over, but the meta will calm down, and it will be back to bio tank. The only thing wrong with bio tank is the vipers. Bye bye tanks. It's fine though, us Terrans will figure it out.
for life to be deliberately and constantly using his lings in this way for an entire series during the intensity of the whole situation makes him a fucking genius o.o
On March 21 2013 22:38 KillingVector wrote: Would this also be useful for blink stalkers? You could queue up a blink train like you do to go up/down cliffs between your bases. Of course, you better make sure there aren't any other terran units on the other side.
You can just run there with a stalker, trigger the mine, blink out. You dodge the damage.
True. However, if you find yourself in a situation where you are retreating across a line of mines (don't ask me why), then maybe a stalker blink train is faster. The effective radius of the mines should be about 5 - (2.9531)(1.5) = 0.57.
On March 21 2013 22:38 KillingVector wrote: Would this also be useful for blink stalkers? You could queue up a blink train like you do to go up/down cliffs between your bases. Of course, you better make sure there aren't any other terran units on the other side.
You can just run there with a stalker, trigger the mine, blink out. You dodge the damage.
True. However, if you find yourself in a situation where you are retreating across a line of mines (don't ask me why), then maybe a stalker blink train is faster. The effective radius of the mines should be about 5 - (2.9531)(1.5) = 0.57.
So the main variable is C, may I ask if this is negated when mines are stacked in a certain pattern? Also, is there any change with flying units regardless of speed, I.E. is there any extra distance from the ground-air? Sorry if these are stupid questions.
Nice post OP, this finally helped me understand that game on Daybreak where I thought Life would lose a big part of his army and he didnt, also, after watching some games on Ret's and Kawai's streams I went to bed feeling sick and now i feel like you've given me some hope ^_^ On a serious note, this truly is some sexy material, thx for sharing.
On March 21 2013 22:38 KillingVector wrote: Would this also be useful for blink stalkers? You could queue up a blink train like you do to go up/down cliffs between your bases. Of course, you better make sure there aren't any other terran units on the other side.
You can just run there with a stalker, trigger the mine, blink out. You dodge the damage.
True. However, if you find yourself in a situation where you are retreating across a line of mines (don't ask me why), then maybe a stalker blink train is faster. The effective radius of the mines should be about 5 - (2.9531)(1.5) = 0.57.
OMFG :'( the memories, for some reason my body wasnt rdy and i think im losing it here, i dont even play these races but who gives a tit about that, its freaking Broodwar/OSL/Boxer/Anytime U CANT TOP THAT ^^
On March 21 2013 03:37 UnholyRai wrote: life is calculating this shit in real time during the games? What a genius prodigy
yep he's calculating sines and cosines like a calculator
Oh do stop being silly. It is not hard to calculate stuff like this in your head In fact you can calculate things a hell of a lot more complicated than this, very quickly. The human brain is good like that. If you've ever thrown a ball, you've automatically done a ballistics calculation inside your own head. It is a rough one but it is one none the less.
Ballistics are far more complicated than a bit of trig.
On March 21 2013 22:38 KillingVector wrote: Would this also be useful for blink stalkers? You could queue up a blink train like you do to go up/down cliffs between your bases. Of course, you better make sure there aren't any other terran units on the other side.
You can just run there with a stalker, trigger the mine, blink out. You dodge the damage.
True. However, if you find yourself in a situation where you are retreating across a line of mines (don't ask me why), then maybe a stalker blink train is faster. The effective radius of the mines should be about 5 - (2.9531)(1.5) = 0.57.
I'm not sure why you used stalker base speed to calculate the speed of a blink train, but nonetheless...
d = sqrt(25-(C/2)^2)
sqrt(25-(C/2)^2) != sqrt(25) - sqrt((C/2)^2) ; and you forgot the power of two.
Once Terran players learn to micro their mines it won't be so easy to avoid the bulk of damage like this intentially or otherwise. If a ling is leading for example all the Terran has to do is select the mine and click one of the lings in the pack behind the leading ling. The mine will have its timer reset and fire at the clump instead of at the leading unit.
If the Terran has 6 mines as close together as possible all he has to do is select them all and click one of the Lings in the pack (as above) then unselect 1 mine and just start right clicking lings randomly in the ball (to hold micro the rest if the mines so only the one fires). He can repeat this as many times as he wants by targeting another unit in the pack and deselecting an extra mine. By doing this a Terran can selectively increase the damage output of the mines tenfold.
On March 22 2013 00:34 MilesTeg wrote: ^ I don't think you realize that there is no way to change the AI that wouldn't fuck the Terran a lot more. Or at least none that I can think of.
Sure there is. Start the chargeup when any enemy is in the radius. When it's done, shoot. If the first enemy is gone, shoot at something else. Don't restart the timer unless there's no enemies nearby.
Who to shoot at? Maybe the one that's been in the zone the longest. Maybe just shoot in the direction if the enemy who ran. Maybe whoever's closest. That could be tested. But none if these would fuck the terran over more than NOT firing.
The immediate implication for Terrans who wish to continue going mines against Zergs is that there is a critical density (where the mines are 2 times 'd' apart) where there is no way for zerglings to cross the minefield without crossing within a radius 2 of a mine. Obviously, this is pretty dense, thus expensive. This means that mines can only stop zerglings with 100% efficiency if they are placed in chokes at densities above the critical density.
The response to this from Zergs?... set off the mines with a single zergling and then move in or simply go around (possibly by using Nydus or drops!). It seems that Terrans must begin to use tanks to lock down anything but narrow ramps.
EPT
In fact you can calculate things a hell of a lot more complicated than this, very quickly. The human brain is good like that. If you've ever thrown a ball, you've automatically done a ballistics calculation inside your own head. It is a rough one but it is one none the less.
