EPTOn March 02 2015 07:35 KelsierSC wrote:
i'm surprised this thread is necessary
i'm surprised this thread is necessary
Woah woah woah. What are u trying to say?
The HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 329
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
Woah woah woah. What are u trying to say? | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
Obviously he wants to balance whine. Now to the point, is there any decent source for learning, e.g. replays/VODs/streams? I originally wanted to learn from HuK but I can't notice him streaming the last few days, maybe it's a timezone issue or he's not streaming indeed. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
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James123
France34 Posts
Zest : The true king of agression and adaptation, really versatile opening most of the time and when he go for agression, he definitely know what he is doing in any match-ups. herO : Personally I love herO style for a lot of reason. But mainly because he got his own very solid macro oriented build with quite easy execution and adaptability. Definitely not the guy to watch if you are looking for cheese in general. All of those 3 top-tier protoss can play various style but that's what I noticed after a lot of personal analysis on players. Might be wrong as this is just my personal statement. There is a lot of good Korean Protoss you can learn from (basically almost all of them) but those are the most popular for some reason. P.S. : I'd recommend Trap for PvP aswell. Myungsik for solid and sometimes innovative PvZ all-in(particulary like his 8-gate mass chargelot all-in that he used in Proleague). | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
I'd also like to add that herO is very well-known for his blink. | ||
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Motlu
Australia884 Posts
As for good players to learn builds from, I agree that Trap is a great player to learn PvP from and in general a good player to study. He tends to have a smaller variety of builds in his arsenal, which would be considered a disadvantage for most protosses, but he has regardless maintained a 80% winrate in recent times. (He 4-0'ed sOs at RBBG DC using essentially the same opener every game, pretty impressive given PvP's reputation as the build order coinflip matchup). Likewise his games vs Impact in the most recent Olimoleague show a solid PvZ oracle into +2 blink with a fast third which he uses every game irrc. A lot of people use this build in the current PvZ meta, but not many persist in using it so many times in a series like Trap does. Its convenient in that you get to study the different reactions of the build in a multitude of scenarios. TL;DR: Traps awesome, study his games! (I am not biased in any way  ) | ||
Olli
Austria24417 Posts
TL,DR: Zest does only tried and proven builds that he deems good. No experiments, no on the fly crazyness. | ||
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Icekin
88 Posts
I'm pretty sick lately for mines play in PvT In every single PvT I have to deal with mines, in early, in mid and in late game. Proxy mines are easy win to terran: no way you can gain macro advantage vs a terran. Even if he does no damage at all, it will slow your eco and tech and will win with a timing attack. You have just to be lucky with scouting. Mines drop: I can counter them, yea, still they do lots of damage, expecially with 2 mines+4 marines drop, or 2 mines plus 2 hellion in natural. In mid game: mines shut down every kind of aggression or all in. If only 1 units trigs a mine, they do their full splash to your army. U need to be careful, but this give huge time to terran to prepare for defense. In late game, they are anti mass unit. They place under their feets, pull the engage, and boom, 20 zealots die and I have no meat shield for next engage. And they do something like 6-7 mines each time. And this, just in the last month. My PvT was around 55%, as soon as terrans started abuse mines, it fell to 40%. And these maps doenst help: everty time i loose 100 army supply thanks to mines on that ramps. My obs are "main target" for terran, because they know they can abuse mines. So my questions are: Ho to deal with proxy mine and multiple attacks with just msc 3 stalkers and a sentry (this is what i have when terrans hit) I have to kill 2 mines and 4 rines, or 2 mines and 2 hellion with few units. How to all-in hard the terran. Really. Sick of terran abuse these units, I want to punish it hard. Is 12/12 alicia colossus all in viable? What is the fastest 2 base blink all in build? Any other all in good vs mines play? | ||
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AkashSky
United States257 Posts
On March 02 2015 19:33 Icekin wrote: Hello guys I'm pretty sick lately for mines play in PvT In every single PvT I have to deal with mines, in early, in mid and in late game. Proxy mines are easy win to terran: no way you can gain macro advantage vs a terran. Even if he does no damage at all, it will slow your eco and tech and will win with a timing attack. You have just to be lucky with scouting. Mines drop: I can counter them, yea, still they do lots of damage, expecially with 2 mines+4 marines drop, or 2 mines plus 2 hellion in natural. In mid game: mines shut down every kind of aggression or all in. If only 1 units trigs a mine, they do their full splash to your army. U need to be careful, but this give huge time to terran to prepare for defense. In late game, they are anti mass unit. They place under their feets, pull the engage, and boom, 20 zealots die and I have no meat shield for next engage. And they do something like 6-7 mines each time. And this, just in the last month. My PvT was around 55%, as soon as terrans started abuse mines, it fell to 40%. And these maps doenst help: everty time i loose 100 army supply thanks to mines on that ramps. My obs are "main target" for terran, because they know they can abuse mines. So my questions are: Ho to deal with proxy mine and multiple attacks with just msc 3 stalkers and a sentry (this is what i have when terrans hit) I have to kill 2 mines and 4 rines, or 2 mines and 2 hellion with few units. How to all-in hard the terran. Really. Sick of terran abuse these units, I want to punish it hard. Is 12/12 alicia colossus all in viable? What is the fastest 2 base blink all in build? Any other all in good vs mines play? First of all, I need to correct you on your fallacy that proxy widow mines w/ proxy factory are easy wins for T. You need to realize that if you spot the factory landing into your base, and you pull all your probes, YOU CAN KILL THE FACTORY BEFORE A WIDOW MINE GETS OUT. The key to defend this is to place your first 3 pylons in a manner which grants you complete vision of your main base. If you don't wanna pull all your probes, then react quickly and send a probe to follow underneath the factory so it can't land in your main base. Is it not proxied in your main base? well guess what you should see it coming well before it hits your mineral line because in this case it needs to walk up your ramp to get to your mineral line. (One of your 3 pylons should be granting vision here) PULL YOUR EFFING PROBES TO ATTACK THE WIDOW MINE and don't let it burrow in your mineral line. You will force it to burrow away from your mineral line and you can pull probes back and not lose anything (if you retreat as soon as it starts to burrow). Also, you should note that you have a decisive lead if you defend any of these without taking worker loses, even if probes were pulled for an extensive amount of time because now the terran is forced to be on 1 rax and 1 starport, (not alot of unit production for actual attacking) or multi-rax with 0 hope of getting medivacs out any time soon. Just scout the follow up and defend the next wave of aggression and you can win in mid game. Mine drops are personally really hard to defend for me. It all depends on if you are paying attention to the right place at the right time, and your reaction time. Mine is slow, so sometimes i take damage and sometimes i don't depending if i was looking or not. What I like to do, however, is to punish any greedy mine drop plays. If you are playing on a 2 player map, you can use MC's 2 stalker MSC opening and punish any player who doesn't build a bunker. If you want my specific variation on the build ask and ill give it to you, but imba builds does a good write up of it, just google MC 2 stalker msc opener. If there is no bunker, you can kill marines/supply depots for free delaying their mine drop. If they have a mine at front and no bunker, you can have msc tank mine shot and then quickly return home (so marines don't snipe it) and then proceed to snipe off marines/ scvs for 40 seconds (widow mine cool down) and then return home. The point is, you can do damage if the terran is being greedy. Also, if you ever tried to do a widow mine drop build, its not easy to fit in a bunker like it is with a barracks opener. The focus on gas decreases the minerals you have and you have so many less resources to devote to something additional like a bunker, especially if you are planning on following up with a command center. The downside is if the T opens regular expand with bunker, you are slightly behind. In this case you should at least try to fly the msc in to get scouting information and recall out if need be. As for your question about all ins, my personal favorite is pig baby's 3/3 collosus zealot timing attack/ all in. You camp on 2 base with 7 obs defending all drops while cronoboosting forges. Then you max out and all in the T. | ||
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Icekin
88 Posts
On March 03 2015 03:25 AkashSky wrote: First of all, I need to correct you on your fallacy that proxy widow mines w/ proxy factory are easy wins for T. You need to realize that if you spot the factory landing into your base, and you pull all your probes, YOU CAN KILL THE FACTORY BEFORE A WIDOW MINE GETS OUT. The key to defend this is to place your first 3 pylons in a manner which grants you complete vision of your main base. If you don't wanna pull all your probes, then react quickly and send a probe to follow underneath the factory so it can't land in your main base. Is it not proxied in your main base? well guess what you should see it coming well before it hits your mineral line because in this case it needs to walk up your ramp to get to your mineral line. (One of your 3 pylons should be granting vision here) PULL YOUR EFFING PROBES TO ATTACK THE WIDOW MINE and don't let it burrow in your mineral line. You will force it to burrow away from your mineral line and you can pull probes back and not lose anything (if you retreat as soon as it starts to burrow). Also, you should note that you have a decisive lead if you defend any of these without taking worker loses, even if probes were pulled for an extensive amount of time because now the terran is forced to be on 1 rax and 1 starport, (not alot of unit production for actual attacking) or multi-rax with 0 hope of getting medivacs out any time soon. Just scout the follow up and defend the next wave of aggression and you can win in mid game. Mine drops are personally really hard to defend for me. It all depends on if you are paying attention to the right place at the right time, and your reaction time. Mine is slow, so sometimes i take damage and sometimes i don't depending if i was looking or not. What I like to do, however, is to punish any greedy mine drop plays. If you are playing on a 2 player map, you can use MC's 2 stalker MSC opening and punish any player who doesn't build a bunker. If you want my specific variation on the build ask and ill give it to you, but imba builds does a good write up of it, just google MC 2 stalker msc opener. If there is no bunker, you can kill marines/supply depots for free delaying their mine drop. If they have a mine at front and no bunker, you can have msc tank mine shot and then quickly return home (so marines don't snipe it) and then proceed to snipe off marines/ scvs for 40 seconds (widow mine cool down) and then return home. The point is, you can do damage if the terran is being greedy. Also, if you ever tried to do a widow mine drop build, its not easy to fit in a bunker like it is with a barracks opener. The focus on gas decreases the minerals you have and you have so many less resources to devote to something additional like a bunker, especially if you are planning on following up with a command center. The downside is if the T opens regular expand with bunker, you are slightly behind. In this case you should at least try to fly the msc in to get scouting information and recall out if need be. As for your question about all ins, my personal favorite is pig baby's 3/3 collosus zealot timing attack/ all in. You camp on 2 base with 7 obs defending all drops while cronoboosting forges. Then you max out and all in the T. Thanks for the deep answer. The main difficult I have with proxy mines, is the delay I get in tech/eco. Maybe I'm too afraid. Sometimes they put factory near edges so I can't kill scv. When I see proxy factory i Don't expand, i put 2 more gates instead. Shall I expand? How many probes do I have to pull to kill factory? Also, I'm not sure that probes can actually kill a mine before it burrows..maybe u mean probes+ units? Another question: sometimes with 2 stalker+msc push the terran just drop a mine anyway in my mineral line. So i'm afraid pushing with msc stalker and leave no units behind. Thanks for the infos anyway! | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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Motlu
Australia884 Posts
On March 03 2015 05:53 darkness wrote: Weird how I lose only to 60-70 apm (2x less than me) players if it is PvP. Cool game. How do you lose? What mistakes do you make? What did he do better than you. These are questions you should be asking yourself. Whining will get you no where. | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
On March 03 2015 05:53 darkness wrote: Weird how I lose only to 60-70 apm (2x less than me) players if it is PvP. Cool game. Apm is kind of meaningless compared to bw, it's much more about builds and decision making in starcraft 2 | ||
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AkashSky
United States257 Posts
On March 03 2015 04:35 Icekin wrote: Thanks for the deep answer. The main difficult I have with proxy mines, is the delay I get in tech/eco. Maybe I'm too afraid. Sometimes they put factory near edges so I can't kill scv. When I see proxy factory i Don't expand, i put 2 more gates instead. Shall I expand? How many probes do I have to pull to kill factory? Also, I'm not sure that probes can actually kill a mine before it burrows..maybe u mean probes+ units? Another question: sometimes with 2 stalker+msc push the terran just drop a mine anyway in my mineral line. So i'm afraid pushing with msc stalker and leave no units behind. Thanks for the infos anyway! You don't need to kill the scv building the factory, you just need to make sure to pull probes to kill factory if he flies it into your base. As for proxy mine, you have to remember that a widow mine that isn't burrowed in your mineral line isn't going to kill any units. You simply engage early with your probes when they walk up your ramp to force it to burrow away from your mineral line. If he tries to unburrow and move it into your mineral line you can probably kill it. Remember, you ARE NOT TRYING TO KILL THE WIDOW MINE. You are trying to stop it from burrowing in your mineral line. You just need good probe micro and unwillingness to tolerate terran units anywhere near your nexus. The timing of the 2 stalker MSC push is as follows, be @ his base with 1 stalker and 1 msc at about 5 minutes. If you are really scared of counter pressure (the most he could do is a reaper) you can leave the second stalker back at home. At this point in time, it is impossible for terran to have a medivac out to drop widow mines into your main base. The closest thing to widow mine harassment terran can do at this point is a proxy factory, which I have just told you CAN be dealt with by pulling probes. Of course it helps to start a robo before pulling all your probes. If you are scared of a widow mine drop being sent out as you are pressuring, you gotta realize that you can probably kill him straight up or do alot of damage because the T opponent would have no units. The fastest medivac pops out at around 6 minutes, and the fastest widow mine drop i have seen hit me on ladder is 6:30, (and this was 1 base proxied). Pressuring at 5 minutes will ultimately delay the widow mine drop because you are killing his marines (which he needs to do kill buildings like pylons with his drop). Be assertive with your units, stalkers have a high skill ceiling because of their movement speed. Make the most out of them! | ||
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Dracover
Australia177 Posts
I had 1 of those games yesterday and all you need to do is park a probe under his factory so it can't land. Just start the game with ur 3rd pylon in a location near the edge where they could be floating in. Mine drops in the mid game are a pain. That's why you see many people going blink very early whether it's for a blink all in or not. Being able to catch that first medivac is huge. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On March 02 2015 11:40 James123 wrote: Stats : Personal strategy and have his very own style when agressive, if you wish to put time into really weird but well rounded timing, he is the guy. Zest : The true king of agression and adaptation, really versatile opening most of the time and when he go for agression, he definitely know what he is doing in any match-ups. herO : Personally I love herO style for a lot of reason. But mainly because he got his own very solid macro oriented build with quite easy execution and adaptability. Definitely not the guy to watch if you are looking for cheese in general. All of those 3 top-tier protoss can play various style but that's what I noticed after a lot of personal analysis on players. Might be wrong as this is just my personal statement. There is a lot of good Korean Protoss you can learn from (basically almost all of them) but those are the most popular for some reason. P.S. : I'd recommend Trap for PvP aswell. Myungsik for solid and sometimes innovative PvZ all-in(particulary like his 8-gate mass chargelot all-in that he used in Proleague). Cool, but I can't notice any of them stream when I'm online. Is there a replay website or something? | ||
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Motlu
Australia884 Posts
On March 03 2015 08:59 Dracover wrote: Are we talking about factories being floated in or built directly in your base? I had 1 of those games yesterday and all you need to do is park a probe under his factory so it can't land. Just start the game with ur 3rd pylon in a location near the edge where they could be floating in. Mine drops in the mid game are a pain. That's why you see many people going blink very early whether it's for a blink all in or not. Being able to catch that first medivac is huge. I'm not 100% sure, but aren't blink openers bad in general vs early factory builds from Terran? If he goes gas first mine drops he has a window where you dont have obs or blink and can abuse the crap out of you. If you go all in and he builds mines he can deny mining/ do a tonne of damage. The only time you are ok with a blink build vs a mine drop is if they open reaper expand into mine drop and you go for a 6:30 robo imo. Of course I have only been opening with oracles or early robo's when I decide to play macro PvT so I don't know if I am completely wrong or not  | ||
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Dracover
Australia177 Posts
But against reaper expand -> mines, blink is very good. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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