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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
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BaronVonOwn
299 Posts
On November 14 2014 00:29 DinoMight wrote: ... early game. This was a serious question, I'm not talking about monobattles here. No one has 8 queens and 3 bases in the "early game." The counter to that strategy is reporting them for mineral hacking. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On November 14 2014 00:46 BaronVonOwn wrote: No one has 8 queens and 3 bases in the "early game." The counter to that strategy is reporting them for mineral hacking. Mineral hacks? Really? Can someone who actually knows what they're talking about help please? | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On November 13 2014 23:30 DinoMight wrote: And die to Hydras. Also, what do you guys do about mass Queen openings in PvZ? Like 8 queens on 3 bases... there's basically no amount of early pressure or harass that can hurt them and they can drone to their heart's content... Yes, queens+speedlings it's definitely one of the most annoying openings to deal with. As you said, queens are really good at defending because of high range (also anti air which is great vs phoenixes) and transfusions. They also make a shit ton of creep which you need to stop in some way or you will have creep by your forth base at 16:00. Additionally, queens and speedlings are mineral only units which lets the zerg player have very strong tech options (typically mutalisks, ultralisks or swarmhosts) Right now against this I just play passive/greedy and scout very carefully. But also pay attention to a ton of 1-1 lings sniping your third base. Edit : oh and by the way, gate expo into 4 gate is build countered by a 3 hatch before pool IMO. They should hold comfortably with Queens+lings and put you incredibly behind thanks to the early 3 hatchs. | ||
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BaronVonOwn
299 Posts
On November 14 2014 01:49 SatedSC2 wrote: San delayed his 4 Gate massively due to the Zergling counter attack/trying to build up a lot of Zealots before attacking. He also lost his MSC for free and charged up a well-defended ramp instead of to a 3rd that wasn't creep connected for a long time. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On November 13 2014 23:30 DinoMight wrote: And die to Hydras. Also, what do you guys do about mass Queen openings in PvZ? Like 8 queens on 3 bases... there's basically no amount of early pressure or harass that can hurt them and they can drone to their heart's content... On November 13 2014 23:59 DinoMight wrote: Life vs. San Blizzcon.... Speedlings and queens into #whateverthefuckhewants. Look, if you shouldn't complain if you aren't doing the build properly. First off, I didn't mean a San gate. I actually just meant 3 gate light zealot pressure to force some units and mess with the zerg while you set up the all-in behind it. These zealots aren't that expendable, so you should recall if the situation turns sour. You'll only kill their third if you're not diligent enough in scouting or don't know how to defend, which isn't that uncommon at your level of play. The real push hits at 9:30-10:00 iirc, and no, hydras aren't unbeatable either. The reason I said this strategy was good is because it gives you a reasonable win rate to say the least, while most importantly allowing you to avoid swarm hosts. I was rank 1 diamond with this build - which currently you aren't - and even beat master zergs with it, so I do think it's worth a shot. And like I said before, I was almost always rank 1 at my peak, but I never played enough to get promoted - that is to say, I was arguably master league material but too lazy to get there. And keep in mind a lot of people tend to forget how to deal with certain builds that aren't that common anymore. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On November 14 2014 02:18 vhapter wrote: I was rank 1 diamond with this build - which currently you aren't - and even beat master zergs with it, so I do think it's worth a shot. And like I said before, I was almost always rank 1 at my peak, but I never played enough to get promoted - that is to say, I was arguably master league material but too lazy to get there. Are you really going to tell me that my opinion on a build is invalid because I'm not currently rank 1 Diamond? Or because "you could be Masters if you weren't lazy? Can you please just stop talking and let someone who understands the game give a reasonable explanation? FYI it's not relevant at all but I have been Rank 1 Diamond many times and I actually have been Masters before too. But then I got lazy and now I'm just a trash sub-Rank 1 Diamond player  | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On November 14 2014 01:55 KingAlphard wrote: Yes, queens+speedlings it's definitely one of the most annoying openings to deal with. As you said, queens are really good at defending because of high range (also anti air which is great vs phoenixes) and transfusions. They also make a shit ton of creep which you need to stop in some way or you will have creep by your forth base at 16:00. Additionally, queens and speedlings are mineral only units which lets the zerg player have very strong tech options (typically mutalisks, ultralisks or swarmhosts) Right now against this I just play passive/greedy and scout very carefully. But also pay attention to a ton of 1-1 lings sniping your third base. Edit : oh and by the way, gate expo into 4 gate is build countered by a 3 hatch before pool IMO. They should hold comfortably with Queens+lings and put you incredibly behind thanks to the early 3 hatchs. I've been going gate expand into Phoenix and then Colossus with some Warp Prism harass and just taking my 3rd when I feel comfortable. But mass Queens/Lings into Swarm Host is really hard to deal with on some of these maps. | ||
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BaronVonOwn
299 Posts
On November 14 2014 02:08 KingAlphard wrote: I'll explain better why I think 4 gate is bad against 3 hatch before pool. There's a very short timing window in which you can really punish that opening, and it ends, in my opinion, at around 6:00. I say this because it's been proven in the past that a reactive 1 base 4 gate, which will hit at around 5:50(since it's reactive), does not break that opening. Only real counter to 3 hatch before pool, IMO, is a non scouted double proxy gate. So if a 1 base 4 gate doesn't work, why would a 2 base 4 gate which hits later with the same amount of units? And don't say 'well you can build probes from 2 nexus if you fail' , because you have no tech and he has 3 hatch production. Obviously you can still win if the zerg player fails to scout, but I think that a 4 gate is one of the easiest all ins to scout, since as a protoss you have to wall off with the gateways. So pretty much all the zerg player needs to do is not overdrone and spam lings/queens from 3 hatchs. Agreed 100%, if you want to hit some kind of early timing against Zerg listen to this guy. If you weren't going gateway first then there's no way you'll hit the needed 4gate timing so don't even bother. Zerg players have 3-4 years of practice defending 4gates now so they are only scary to a zerg when their timing, macro, and unit mix is bang-on. If zerg is playing safe, 4gate is a build order loss. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
By the way, what's up with all the whining? I sent you a pm offering ingame help in PvT a while ago - when you made a thread whining about the matchup - and you ignored it. Now you're complaining about it again. Do you actually want to get better or are you complaining just for the hell of it? | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On November 14 2014 02:27 DinoMight wrote: I've been going gate expand into Phoenix and then Colossus with some Warp Prism harass and just taking my 3rd when I feel comfortable. But mass Queens/Lings into Swarm Host is really hard to deal with on some of these maps. I doubt you can prism harass against speedlings and queens. A good way to waste 1000 minerals (in a phase of the game where minerals are still important) warping in zealots which get surrounded by lings instantly. Phoenixes are also bad. You can't do damage against so many queens, they are basically moving spores. They can't attack lings (well... I've been lifting them one by one in desperate situations but it's not very successful) and they can't delay creepspread. I'd rather go oracle into void ray against such a style. But obviously it's hard to know beforehand. And your build looks like you take a late third. Taking it earlier is better because the zerg player will have to commit if he wants to kill it, if you take it at 10:00 they just flood you with lings on 70 drones, and then you die because you have a terrible economy. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On November 14 2014 05:53 KingAlphard wrote: I doubt you can prism harass against speedlings and queens. A good way to waste 1000 minerals (in a phase of the game where minerals are still important) warping in zealots which get surrounded by lings instantly. Phoenixes are also bad. You can't do damage against so many queens, they are basically moving spores. They can't attack lings (well... I've been lifting them one by one in desperate situations but it's not very successful) and they can't delay creepspread. I'd rather go oracle into void ray against such a style. But obviously it's hard to know beforehand. And your build looks like you take a late third. Taking it earlier is better because the zerg player will have to commit if he wants to kill it, if you take it at 10:00 they just flood you with lings on 70 drones, and then you die because you have a terrible economy. I like to open Phoenixes because it deters Muta. Believe it or not I'd rather play against Swarm Host than Muta.... Having the Warp Prism out early is nice because if he does try to cancel my third I can just warp in a bunch in his base and do some counter damage. So I go up to 4 Phoenixes to hunt overlords and clear the way for my Warp prism and I throw down my robo pretty soon after my Stargate to get Colossus. I'm usually chilling on like 3-4 gateways a Stargate and a Robo until I take my 3rd around 9? If it's too greedy I just cancel and keep building up an army and if he wastes too much trying to kill it I just allin. In the end it's either gateway/robo pressure early and avoid SH but be exposed to Muta or open Phoenix and deflect Muta but play a longer game possibly vs Swarm Hosts... I prefer the latter. My PvZ is actually pretty good lately, winning nearly 60%. I just find ling/queen annoying to play against because it forces Colos... | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On November 14 2014 02:08 KingAlphard wrote: I'll explain better why I think 4 gate is bad against 3 hatch before pool. There's a very short timing window in which you can really punish that opening, and it ends, in my opinion, at around 6:00. I say this because it's been proven in the past that a reactive 1 base 4 gate, which will hit at around 5:50(since it's reactive), does not break that opening. Only real counter to 3 hatch before pool, IMO, is a non scouted double proxy gate. So if a 1 base 4 gate doesn't work, why would a 2 base 4 gate which hits later with the same amount of units? And don't say 'well you can build probes from 2 nexus if you fail' , because you have no tech and he has 3 hatch production. Obviously you can still win if the zerg player fails to scout, but I think that a 4 gate is one of the easiest all ins to scout, since as a protoss you have to wall off with the gateways. So pretty much all the zerg player needs to do is not overdrone and spam lings/queens from 3 hatchs. Forge first openings have become popular again because one of the safest responses is a well executed cannon rush. You can cannon rush if he goes hatch first, and if he doesn't, you just take a nexus at 17 supply. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On November 14 2014 06:17 Whitewing wrote: Against super heavy queen openers, the best thing you can do is take a fast third and carefully defend it. There will be large numbers of lings, but you should be able to hold against that: those queens aren't free and won't be able to help attack. Good building placement and careful forcefields should hold against the ling pressure that will come. Forge first openings have become popular again because one of the safest responses is a well executed cannon rush. You can cannon rush if he goes hatch first, and if he doesn't, you just take a nexus at 17 supply. Believe it or not, I open forge most of the time and some people beat me with 3 hatch before pool. Sure, they can't defend the cannon rush. I usually place them in a way that I can take control of the main ramp too. Still, I can't just cannon the natural and switch to a normal game because they have another hatch halfway done in the third base while my nexus isn't started yet. So I have to cannon rush his third base too, but meanwhile he can expand with the drone that was building the hatch in the natural, and so on. At the same time (he is just spending 75 minerals each time to cancel the hatcheries) he can be teching to roaches and threaten with a counterattack while I'm so much behind because I spent tons of minerals building cannons and pylons. It's actually pretty awkward. Against hatch-pool you don't have this problem, you just cannon the natural and then expand immediately after. Maybe I should build more probes and expand and then cannon rush, it should still work since the pool is so late but I'm not that behind in economy. I like to open Phoenixes because it deters Muta. Believe it or not I'd rather play against Swarm Host than Muta.... Having the Warp Prism out early is nice because if he does try to cancel my third I can just warp in a bunch in his base and do some counter damage. So I go up to 4 Phoenixes to hunt overlords and clear the way for my Warp prism and I throw down my robo pretty soon after my Stargate to get Colossus. I'm usually chilling on like 3-4 gateways a Stargate and a Robo until I take my 3rd around 9? If it's too greedy I just cancel and keep building up an army and if he wastes too much trying to kill it I just allin. In the end it's either gateway/robo pressure early and avoid SH but be exposed to Muta or open Phoenix and deflect Muta but play a longer game possibly vs Swarm Hosts... I prefer the latter. My PvZ is actually pretty good lately, winning nearly 60%. I just find ling/queen annoying to play against because it forces Colos... If you think everything you do is right then I don't understand why you were asking for help in the first place. | ||
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
On November 14 2014 02:24 DinoMight wrote: Are you really going to tell me that my opinion on a build is invalid because I'm not currently rank 1 Diamond? Or because "you could be Masters if you weren't lazy? Can you please just stop talking and let someone who understands the game give a reasonable explanation? FYI it's not relevant at all but I have been Rank 1 Diamond many times and I actually have been Masters before too. But then I got lazy and now I'm just a trash sub-Rank 1 Diamond player You have some harsh words there buddy. Should change that. If there is a bunch of queens then there's no need to be aggressive as the zerg can't be aggressive any time soon as well. Mass queens usually indicates some fast hive for ultralisks OR the TRUE ling-corruptor-queen style. You can rule out which one by sending hallucinations to see if he has a fast hive or not. Now to counter this you can just take a third unpunished and try some colossus blink stalker with +2 attack and throw down templar tech when you move out. With good macro and execution you will kill the zerg before he gets ultras and you always have recall if something goes wrong. You are also setup against swarmhosts this way. If there is no fast hive then its probably the ling queen corruptor attack. If you are unsure then you'll still continue colossus production to be safe but get a faster templar archive for HTs and archons to deal with this attack. If you opened phoenix and scouted this then I suggest you stop making phoenix immediately as you'll get no value out of it with so many queens. Edit: I am rank 40 GM if that matters to you lol | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On November 14 2014 06:41 KingAlphard wrote: Believe it or not, I open forge most of the time and some people beat me with 3 hatch before pool. Sure, they can't defend the cannon rush. I usually place them in a way that I can take control of the main ramp too. Still, I can't just cannon the natural and switch to a normal game because they have another hatch halfway done in the third base while my nexus isn't started yet. So I have to cannon rush his third base too, but meanwhile he can expand with the drone that was building the hatch in the natural, and so on. At the same time (he is just spending 75 minerals each time to cancel the hatcheries) he can be teching to roaches and threaten with a counterattack while I'm so much behind because I spent tons of minerals building cannons and pylons. It's actually pretty awkward. Against hatch-pool you don't have this problem, you just cannon the natural and then expand immediately after. Maybe I should build more probes and expand and then cannon rush, it should still work since the pool is so late but I'm not that behind in economy. If you think everything you do is right then I don't understand why you were asking for help in the first place. When you cannon rush the natural against two hatch before pool, don't cannon rush the third, let it go up, and just take your natural. You're still ahead, and he'll have a very hard time connecting his bases and defending: you're forcing a lot of extra defense by virtue of the fact that you can do a warp gate attack off your cannon pylon in the natural, or can go stargate and have an easy time harassing because the bases aren't connected. Forcing a cancel or killing the natural against 3 hatch before pool is just fine (and puts you ahead or even) as long as you don't invest in more than a couple cannons and pylons to do it. You put the zerg way behind because the late pool means late queens, and the lack of that second hatch means less larva. He'll be in a much worse position than if he had just gone hatch into pool. Even though the zerg will have extra money, he'll have nothing to spend money on, because no larva. Drone construction is exponential, so delaying the start of it is very effective. The most likely use of that money is early gas or extra queens. | ||
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
Are there any double gass expand builds for toss? It seems to me like all double gass builds are oracle, dt or blink. And terrans respond fairly well. Can you take 2 gas and just expand, and get ahead to a terran that makes denfense? | ||
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AkashSky
United States257 Posts
On November 17 2014 08:46 Mozdk wrote: PvT: Are there any double gass expand builds for toss? It seems to me like all double gass builds are oracle, dt or blink. And terrans respond fairly well. Can you take 2 gas and just expand, and get ahead to a terran that makes denfense? Yes you can, Simply go double gas @ 15 supply and put 2 probes in each gas. If you really want to scare a terran, proxy your third pylon on the map so you only have 2 in your main. This way they might think you are doing some proxy tech. After, just get out a MSC/Stalker/warpgate and then take an expand off of 1 gate. I prefer 1 gas expands because they are quicker and give you more economy. | ||
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
On November 17 2014 08:46 Mozdk wrote: PvT: Are there any double gass expand builds for toss? It seems to me like all double gass builds are oracle, dt or blink. And terrans respond fairly well. Can you take 2 gas and just expand, and get ahead to a terran that makes denfense? of course you can .2 gas and 1 gas is pretty much the same depending on how you manage your gas. you can just take double gas but put 1 probe in each like cj hero does and rally probes into geysers 1 by 1 when you have 16 mineral saturation. 2 gas is also more unlikely that you'll get ebay blocked too. | ||
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