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On March 27 2013 04:45 awakenx wrote:
Honestly, I'm so lost in TvT right now. I just seem to lose vs anything, mech, bio or marine/tank. The problem is... I really can't find a safe BO for TvT. Yeah, there's reaper FE but that loses to proxy marauder, since there are a lot of 2 player maps in this map pool. I always seem to get cheesed before I can do anything...
Can anyone really recommend a safe TvT build?
I usually go 1 rax fe and bunker up if i see any sort of pressure, or reaper expand both seem pretty safe since you can pull scvs if the bunker isn't enough to hold the marauder proxy. But you should really see a proxy coming with an scv scout and/or reaper scout.
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The thing is, I really don't know how to transition out of the reaper FE opening because I'm much more familiar with mech openings, although the HotS meta seems to be shifting to marine tank, which was something I was never really good at in TvT.
I also seem not be able to hold off many all-ins.  I have a few replays: (I am WorstMicroNA)
http://ggtracker.com/matches/2085915
http://ggtracker.com/matches/2086610
http://ggtracker.com/matches/2159077
http://ggtracker.com/matches/2159078
The first thing I do notice is that my macro is incredibly bad... mostly because I'm doing new builds that I'm constantly alt-tabbing to read, and then I'm sort of caught with my money floating, wondering what to build next.
Other than that, I can't really seem to find a build that works for me. :/
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i think the safest build is factory reactor mine
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On March 27 2013 06:10 Garmer wrote:
i think the safest build is factory reactor mine
Depends on the matchup:
TvZ still has super strong CC-first openings with early Hellions into Widow Mine defenses to get up the bio/mine midgame you want. Generally, you want either that or a Reaper opening.
TvP has the standard of Reactor into Factory for Mines and drop harass, or again the Reaper expand with quick stim.
TvT can have literally any opening. You can range from CC-first 3-rax to proxy Marauder to Marine/Hellion elevator to cloak Banshee harass... it's wide open.
It also depends on whether you're talking about Reactor on Factory for double Mine production or Reactor Barracks PLUS Factory for double Marine/single Mine production. Double Mine production should only be used once you have got some sort of map control or confirmed strategic outline for your opponent. If your opponent is going super greedy, then the gas spent on reactored Mines is better spent on upgrades or units that can actually help a frontal assault; if they're all-inning you, then of course double Mines are awesome. This is why you still generally go Hellion-first in TvZ, because you need to find out what's going on and deny Zergling map control; similarly, this is why you only go naked Factory Mines in TvP - the Protoss is teching, and if you're cranking 150/50 per minute on mines, that's a whole set of upgrades and production of units that you're short-shifting while NOT harassing him via air (early attacks at the front are of course dead due to the Photon Overcharge ability). You have to be smart with your trade-offs.
Mines are very powerful defense, but require additional resources and support for offensive deployment. If you're spending that much on Mines, be sure that you are getting an adequate payoff (i.e. super-fast third, delaying his third, getting up more production, killing workers, etc.).
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In TvZ:
What is the benefit in specific terms of going cc-first vs 1rax expo. I have been using 1 rax expo into double gas, into reactored hellions into banshee. I make ~4-6 hellions and 1 banshee before going into mines. Sometimes drop 3rd oc if zerg goes fast third, otherwise go 2 more rax and 1 more fact for tanks and marines.
So what's the benefit of going cc-first in terms of timings and decision tree possibilities compared to 1 rax expo? What maps should you not do cc-first on? Are there any recommended games where cc-first faces 10 pool or roach rush and holds it well? What're a few recommended games where cc-first goes into marine-tank?
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With TvT going mech besides putting up sensor towers everywhere around your base how can you combat drops easily? If you see it coming what is the best way to respond, especially if your army is defending your third from your opponent?
Also is the meta still either mech or bio or is it moving towards one or the other? Im finding hellbat/tank/viking pretty solid atm, destroys any marine/tank is a straight up fight. Heck, hellbats alone (well with medivac support) can kill entire tank lines if theres enough of them.
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On March 27 2013 12:06 EZR-Aeron wrote:
With TvT going mech besides putting up sensor towers everywhere around your base how can you combat drops easily? If you see it coming what is the best way to respond, especially if your army is defending your third from your opponent?
Also is the meta still either mech or bio or is it moving towards one or the other? Im finding hellbat/tank/viking pretty solid atm, destroys any marine/tank is a straight up fight. Heck, hellbats alone (well with medivac support) can kill entire tank lines if theres enough of them.
Bio seems pretty superior on almost every map in the map pool because the medivac speed boost allows a bio player to clean out your production, even if you have a turret ring in your base, if you try to move out, even with a maxed force on three bases, and then whittle down your main force before winning.
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On March 27 2013 04:15 KamiDaHobo wrote:Hey guys, a total SC2 newbie here, just curious as to if I have the 'right idea' as far as Terran is concerned before hitting up the ladder/placement matches. I've been practicing macro, and here is my latest practice game (versus AI) for reference http://drop.sc/313992I know I need to be smoother about my expansions, and the Engineering Bay goes a while without really doing anything, but I'm slowly getting the hang of things, I think. Any advice would be much appreciated!
not too bad. try to make sure youre constantly producing scvs, no gaps between them. also once the game gets going youll be having to make 3 supply depots at a time, its better to overmake them than to undermake them.
you had at least 5 barracks on 2 bases which is nice, but when you make your third go up to 8 barracks straight away. like depots its better to overmake production than undermake it.
also medivacs go very well with bio so as soon as your factory finishes make a starport that you can put a reactor on to get medivacs out!
when your refineries finish you often forget to fill them up with 2 additional scvs
One thing to note is your hotkey system. while there is no right hotkey system macro and multitasking are infinitely easier with a setup you can use well and are happy with. Most people dont have their cc's on 1 and their army on 3, but if that works for you you can stick with it...its just when you get better you will want to hotkey select units like ghosts, or vikings on hotkeys on their own, and I find it awkward combining attack move with the buttons to the right, therefore most people will have their army on the leftmost hotkeys (1-3 or 1-4 etc) then their ccs, then their production to the right of that
what would be useful for you is to learn a build order as your actions seemed a bit random at times, a build order helps you play with purpose and trying to successfully execute a set build really helps your macro skills, heres an example which you could use in all matchups:
10 depot
12 barracks
13 gas
make orbital command and marines
after orbital make 2nd depot
at 100 gas make a factory
at next 50 gas put reactor on barracks
have 1 scv always building a depot (when he finishes 1 build another)
keep making marines and making widow mines from your factory
at 100 more gas make a starport
when starport finish make medivac
drop widow mines in opponents base and make 2nd command centre
now make 2 more barracks and engineering bay
get 2nd gas
use new 2 barracks to get stim and combat shield
get a turret in each mineral line for detection and antiair
thats just an example, you can use any opening you like, just find something that suits you and you find fun to play
2v2s are a more relaxed way to kind of get into the game and get better at playing your race and learning the game without being quite as stressful as 1v1s.
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on Akilon Flats, where is the best place to take your third in all matchups? and is this different if you're going mech vT?
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On March 27 2013 12:44 SHODAN wrote:
on Akilon Flats, where is the best place to take your third in all matchups? and is this different if you're going mech vT?
1. vs Toss (assuming you're playing bio), it's best to take the one over the cliff from your nat (as opposed to the one through the destructible rocks). This is because this forces the Protoss to attack through a funnel into the wide area outside your natural ramp where you can get an easy surround. Storms and chargelots in the other location are a nightmare, and getting caught defending the third in that little room is basically death. Forcing an engagement prior to that point requires you to be outside the 3rd base entrance, which is far out of position.
2. vs Terran: this one is a bit more discretionary. The third over the cliff from your nat can be sieged from the ramp near the xelnaga tower location. However, the other third through the destructible rocks leaves you more vulnerable to drops ping-ponging between your main and your third. The ledge that juts out between your natural and the base through the destructible rocks is a great siege location to defend both entrances. If I was playing mech, I'd take the third through the rocks, because it's easier to cover both entrances and drop locations when playing mech.
3. vs Zerg: the third through the destructible rocks is easier to defend from runbys, but more difficult to defend against mutas for the same reason as above. I still prefer this expansion, since you can close the entrance with rocks, and the mutalisk threat is easily closed up with well-placed defenses.
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On March 27 2013 12:06 EZR-Aeron wrote:
With TvT going mech besides putting up sensor towers everywhere around your base how can you combat drops easily? If you see it coming what is the best way to respond, especially if your army is defending your third from your opponent?
Also is the meta still either mech or bio or is it moving towards one or the other? Im finding hellbat/tank/viking pretty solid atm, destroys any marine/tank is a straight up fight. Heck, hellbats alone (well with medivac support) can kill entire tank lines if theres enough of them.
you can always make your third a planetary so its a bit easier to defend with fewer units. use marines or floating rax to spot possible doom drops at the earliest possible opportunity, leave a couple of siege tanks in your main base and also try to combine turret rings with widow mines to do splash to medivacs if possible. yes your standing army is a bit weaker but he shouldnt be able to attack into your siege tanks cost effectively anyway.
Ideally if you are on 3 bases you will have some vikings so try and have these in a position where they quickly move to intercept drops. i.e. between your bases.
when you are on 4 bases and have lots of money make sure you have hi-sec, a ridiculous amount of turrets and dont be afraid to even put a planetary in your main, have TWO planetaries at your fourth
If you can make your opponent do a doom drop where you clean it up successfully this can often be gg for the opponent as you just counter and win.
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United States4991 Posts
I'm sort of lost on TvT openings right now . Usually I do OK, and I don't have a problem with TvT after the opening, but I can't figure out what the hell to do about dual proxy rax reaper (8/8/8 for the first rax, then another rax I believe around 11ish).
I'm usually opening up with 12 rax/13 gas, which means my marine comes out around when his reaper is first arriving. Ideally I'm following it up with a reaper / reactor at that point, but basically it's impossible to make the reactor for sure, since that stops my unit production for a while. Even continuing making units off the 1 rax doesn't work very well, since all I can make are reapers/marines, but I'm on a 2 rax to 1 deficit, and if I don't actually kill a reaper, his force continues to grow/heal up.
If I metagame the fact that almost all my TvT opponents do this opening I guess I can stop it, but the problem is that short of scouting incredibly early or getting lucky on scouting the proxy raxes somewhere, a relatively standardish build will already be committed to by then...
e: and some sort of "respond by making a 2nd rax!" is way too late because by the time I realize he's going this build, I basically already have reapers at my base, and it takes way too long to get the 2nd rax to match his production.
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On March 27 2013 04:45 awakenx wrote:
Honestly, I'm so lost in TvT right now. I just seem to lose vs anything, mech, bio or marine/tank. The problem is... I really can't find a safe BO for TvT. Yeah, there's reaper FE but that loses to proxy marauder, since there are a lot of 2 player maps in this map pool. I always seem to get cheesed before I can do anything...
Can anyone really recommend a safe TvT build?
Good old 1/1/1 expand is really descent I see gm's using it on stream.
They go for a couple of reapers, then a couple of widowmines into sometimes hellions to help the reapers. Eventually they can drop the mines in enemies base when they feel save. Once you're building your expo, u can still adapt. But mines do solve alot of problems.
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On March 27 2013 15:17 Insane wrote:I'm sort of lost on TvT openings right now . Usually I do OK, and I don't have a problem with TvT after the opening, but I can't figure out what the hell to do about dual proxy rax reaper (8/8/8 for the first rax, then another rax I believe around 11ish). I'm usually opening up with 12 rax/13 gas, which means my marine comes out around when his reaper is first arriving. Ideally I'm following it up with a reaper / reactor at that point, but basically it's impossible to make the reactor for sure, since that stops my unit production for a while. Even continuing making units off the 1 rax doesn't work very well, since all I can make are reapers/marines, but I'm on a 2 rax to 1 deficit, and if I don't actually kill a reaper, his force continues to grow/heal up. If I metagame the fact that almost all my TvT opponents do this opening I guess I can stop it, but the problem is that short of scouting incredibly early or getting lucky on scouting the proxy raxes somewhere, a relatively standardish build will already be committed to by then... e: and some sort of "respond by making a 2nd rax!" is way too late because by the time I realize he's going this build, I basically already have reapers at my base, and it takes way too long to get the 2nd rax to match his production.
Look in strategysection about defending the 8/8/8. TheDwF posted the answer there howto defend it.
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United States4991 Posts
On March 27 2013 15:34 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 15:17 Insane wrote:I'm sort of lost on TvT openings right now . Usually I do OK, and I don't have a problem with TvT after the opening, but I can't figure out what the hell to do about dual proxy rax reaper (8/8/8 for the first rax, then another rax I believe around 11ish). I'm usually opening up with 12 rax/13 gas, which means my marine comes out around when his reaper is first arriving. Ideally I'm following it up with a reaper / reactor at that point, but basically it's impossible to make the reactor for sure, since that stops my unit production for a while. Even continuing making units off the 1 rax doesn't work very well, since all I can make are reapers/marines, but I'm on a 2 rax to 1 deficit, and if I don't actually kill a reaper, his force continues to grow/heal up. If I metagame the fact that almost all my TvT opponents do this opening I guess I can stop it, but the problem is that short of scouting incredibly early or getting lucky on scouting the proxy raxes somewhere, a relatively standardish build will already be committed to by then... e: and some sort of "respond by making a 2nd rax!" is way too late because by the time I realize he's going this build, I basically already have reapers at my base, and it takes way too long to get the 2nd rax to match his production. Look in strategysection about defending the 8/8/8. TheDwF posted the answer there howto defend it.
Got it, thanks. Looks like the biggest problem is trying to make a reaper of my own...
For others looking, here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18122960
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On March 27 2013 15:39 Insane wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 15:34 govie wrote:On March 27 2013 15:17 Insane wrote:I'm sort of lost on TvT openings right now . Usually I do OK, and I don't have a problem with TvT after the opening, but I can't figure out what the hell to do about dual proxy rax reaper (8/8/8 for the first rax, then another rax I believe around 11ish). I'm usually opening up with 12 rax/13 gas, which means my marine comes out around when his reaper is first arriving. Ideally I'm following it up with a reaper / reactor at that point, but basically it's impossible to make the reactor for sure, since that stops my unit production for a while. Even continuing making units off the 1 rax doesn't work very well, since all I can make are reapers/marines, but I'm on a 2 rax to 1 deficit, and if I don't actually kill a reaper, his force continues to grow/heal up. If I metagame the fact that almost all my TvT opponents do this opening I guess I can stop it, but the problem is that short of scouting incredibly early or getting lucky on scouting the proxy raxes somewhere, a relatively standardish build will already be committed to by then... e: and some sort of "respond by making a 2nd rax!" is way too late because by the time I realize he's going this build, I basically already have reapers at my base, and it takes way too long to get the 2nd rax to match his production. Look in strategysection about defending the 8/8/8. TheDwF posted the answer there howto defend it. Got it, thanks. Looks like the biggest problem is trying to make a reaper of my own... For others looking, here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18122960
biggest problem is keeping your first marine alive....
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Is CC 1st still viable in any form in TvT and TvP in HotS?
Can I stop 8-8 proxy reaper with CC 1st?
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On March 27 2013 20:19 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:
Is CC 1st still viable in any form in TvT and TvP in HotS?
Can I stop 8-8 proxy reaper with CC 1st?
CC-first is definitely viable TvP. Since most people are delaying a poke across the map until the Mothership Core comes out, you have time to get up the CC and 2 Barracks behind it. Go into normal 3-rax -> Stim play, but scout like a madman, as Oracles are crazy good. If in doubt, overbuild defenses because you already have the eco lead. Scout his third, too, to make sure that if he tries to go 3 Nexus in response, you can just go 3 or 4 CC and power out all your tech quickly.
I haven't faced 8-8-8 proxy yet, so I don't know, but my intuition tells me that low-ground CC-first should be a build-order loss to that early of a Reaper, and even high ground is going to be VERY hard to defend. You'll definitely need to pull 4-5 SCVs and control very well to have a shot at holding it.
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On March 27 2013 20:19 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:
Is CC 1st still viable in any form in TvT and TvP in HotS?
Can I stop 8-8 proxy reaper with CC 1st?
MKP did it a lot vs Seed (Protoss) in their MLG Winter Exhibition series, might be worth checking out.
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On March 27 2013 20:19 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:
Is CC 1st still viable in any form in TvT and TvP in HotS?
Can I stop 8-8 proxy reaper with CC 1st?
At 3:55 rax is done, at 4:15 first marine is out. You will be facing 3 reapers at that timeframe.
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EPT
