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On July 21 2013 03:18 TheBaLinOne wrote: Is there any alternative to a fast 3rd CC in TvZ? An aggressive build with a delayed 3rd or something in that direction.
yes. In recent games both Flash and Innovation did open with CC first into Hellions and adding 2nd and 3rd Rax before 2nd Depot with a single E-Bay, starting the aggression with the first two Medivacs and then constantly pressuring with marine-medivac-mine reinforcements.
It's also a very good opening against most all-ins because your first 2 Hellions will scout early ling-bane busts, giving you enough time to get Bunkers and if you scout them going for Roaches you can start producing Tanks with your Factory right away instead of Mines so that you are able to defend any later Roach-Bane timings.
Innovation lost against Jaedong in this game, but it shows the basic opening:
Does anyone have a basic build order for proxy widow mines in tvp? Like gas timings, reapers yes/no, factory timing, etc. Or any vods of proxy widow mines would be just as good! Thanks!
On July 22 2013 02:50 9-BiT wrote: Does anyone have a basic build order for proxy widow mines in tvp? Like gas timings, reapers yes/no, factory timing, etc. Or any vods of proxy widow mines would be just as good! Thanks!
I've been doing proxy widow mines in TvP since last season with a 70% win rate in TvP. This is the roughly the build order that I use:
10 supply 11 gas 13 rax 14 - send worker for proxy. 16 - OC - Factory Supply count discontinues from here.
After Factory, I usually go Reaper, then get a reactor on the Rax for double marine production. Rally reaper to scout usual proxy stargate locations, then send to harass. If they have yet to drop an expo down, I use my scv that built the factory to drop an engi bay in his natural. Pump out widow mines and marines, get another supply depot. Rally mines to his mineral line. DON'T LOSE YOUR MINES.
Then you can expo, drop 2 more rax and get stim and shield. I then get my 2nd gas, starport then reactor on port.
You can usually follow up with an 11-12 min push with stim, shield and medis, and sometimes end the game there. All that is really dependent on the amount of damage you were able to do with your mines.
Remember, if he thwarts your proxy mines without losing too much probes. He can counter and outright kill you if you're not properly defended and haven't gotten the supporting production facilities to hold.
Also, 1base immortal all-in follow-up/counter is very strong against this build, since they already have the Robo. Be wary of this reaction if you killed some probes, but not enough to fully end the game.
On July 22 2013 02:50 9-BiT wrote: Does anyone have a basic build order for proxy widow mines in tvp? Like gas timings, reapers yes/no, factory timing, etc. Or any vods of proxy widow mines would be just as good! Thanks!
I've been doing proxy widow mines in TvP since last season with a 70% win rate in TvP. This is the roughly the build order that I use:
10 supply 11 gas 13 rax 14 - send worker for proxy. 16 - OC - Factory Supply count discontinues from here.
After Factory, I usually go Reaper, then get a reactor on the Rax for double marine production. Rally reaper to scout usual proxy stargate locations, then send to harass. If they have yet to drop an expo down, I use my scv that built the factory to drop an engi bay in his natural. Pump out widow mines and marines, get another supply depot. Rally mines to his mineral line. DON'T LOSE YOUR MINES.
Then you can expo, drop 2 more rax and get stim and shield. I then get my 2nd gas, starport then reactor on port.
You can usually follow up with an 11-12 min push with stim, shield and medis, and sometimes end the game there. All that is really dependent on the amount of damage you were able to do with your mines.
Remember, if he thwarts your proxy mines without losing too much probes. He can counter and outright kill you if you're not properly defended and haven't gotten the supporting production facilities to hold.
Also, 1base immortal all-in follow-up/counter is very strong against this build, since they already have the Robo. Be wary of this reaction if you killed some probes, but not enough to fully end the game.
Thanks! Do you have a vod of a pro player doing it? I just want to see a game of it played out.
On July 22 2013 02:50 9-BiT wrote: Does anyone have a basic build order for proxy widow mines in tvp? Like gas timings, reapers yes/no, factory timing, etc. Or any vods of proxy widow mines would be just as good! Thanks!
I've been doing proxy widow mines in TvP since last season with a 70% win rate in TvP. This is the roughly the build order that I use:
10 supply 11 gas 13 rax 14 - send worker for proxy. 16 - OC - Factory Supply count discontinues from here.
After Factory, I usually go Reaper, then get a reactor on the Rax for double marine production. Rally reaper to scout usual proxy stargate locations, then send to harass. If they have yet to drop an expo down, I use my scv that built the factory to drop an engi bay in his natural. Pump out widow mines and marines, get another supply depot. Rally mines to his mineral line. DON'T LOSE YOUR MINES.
Then you can expo, drop 2 more rax and get stim and shield. I then get my 2nd gas, starport then reactor on port.
You can usually follow up with an 11-12 min push with stim, shield and medis, and sometimes end the game there. All that is really dependent on the amount of damage you were able to do with your mines.
Remember, if he thwarts your proxy mines without losing too much probes. He can counter and outright kill you if you're not properly defended and haven't gotten the supporting production facilities to hold.
Also, 1base immortal all-in follow-up/counter is very strong against this build, since they already have the Robo. Be wary of this reaction if you killed some probes, but not enough to fully end the game.
Thanks! Do you have a vod of a pro player doing it? I just want to see a game of it played out.
You'll have to look around. I remember Heart doing it in GSTL once, not sure how recent though. I actually got the build order from IM.Fenix last replay pack.
Thanks! Do you have a vod of a pro player doing it? I just want to see a game of it played out.
You'll have to look around. I remember Heart doing it in GSTL once, not sure how recent though. I actually got the build order from IM.Fenix last replay pack.
day9 has a daily up of supernova doing this in 2 games.
Hey there folks! Got a question about something im not sure how to handle: Aince im low diamond/ high plat, my macro is decent but not the best. In the "macro phase" of the game i am doing quite good, building depots on time, buildings units/workers and not queing up like 3 marines or so. Problem is when i have a battle, my macro can slip. Since i got a lot leftover ressources i often build 2 or 3 extra rax, which i normally cant afford to produce units with, but are helpful in spending my ressources after battle. Is that a good idea? Or will that lead to me never fixing my macro erros because i can use a the ressources AFTER the battle?
On July 22 2013 06:20 BlackCompany wrote: Hey there folks! Got a question about something im not sure how to handle: Aince im low diamond/ high plat, my macro is decent but not the best. In the "macro phase" of the game i am doing quite good, building depots on time, buildings units/workers and not queing up like 3 marines or so. Problem is when i have a battle, my macro can slip. Since i got a lot leftover ressources i often build 2 or 3 extra rax, which i normally cant afford to produce units with, but are helpful in spending my ressources after battle. Is that a good idea? Or will that lead to me never fixing my macro erros because i can use a the ressources AFTER the battle?
i think its a good idea. even pros let their macro slip in situations like this and having a way to spend your money /having more production doesnt seem to be bad.
1. What's everyone's hotkey setup in TvP against late game protoss army? I keep my vikings and the rest of my army in a separate group. But it seems I need to split out my ghosts as well not sure if it's strictly required though.
2. What's a good defensive set up for holding/discouraging a protoss from moving on your third? Context: the late protoss army is most effective close together for the archon/stalkers to protect vikings from the colossi. Even with a supply lead, I would need vastly better control to beat colossi/archon/storm/zealot/stalker in a straight up fight. So the best way to engage, I find, is to be more drop heavy. I'm finding that even with a planetary and scvs repairing, I can't fend off an army of similar supply count (my addition supply goes to the drop) and I end up losing the base race. Better building positioning and tweaking my army composition may be need I think.
On July 22 2013 06:20 BlackCompany wrote: Hey there folks! Got a question about something im not sure how to handle: Aince im low diamond/ high plat, my macro is decent but not the best. In the "macro phase" of the game i am doing quite good, building depots on time, buildings units/workers and not queing up like 3 marines or so. Problem is when i have a battle, my macro can slip. Since i got a lot leftover ressources i often build 2 or 3 extra rax, which i normally cant afford to produce units with, but are helpful in spending my ressources after battle. Is that a good idea? Or will that lead to me never fixing my macro erros because i can use a the ressources AFTER the battle?
The guideline is actually to base your production capacity on your near term income. So I would advise checking out pro-play as a basis for planning out how many production facilities you need based on how much mining you have.
On July 19 2013 10:08 Requiem- wrote: Is there a TvX cheese, to kill the other guy fast?
vs Protoss, consensus seems to be, not really. I think there are some vs zerg but I have never done it. For vs Terran there are a lot. I have had great success with the proxy thor drop:
I also like widow mine / marines into cloakshees, obviously straight cloakshee openings are popular now with the recent buff.
And reaper / proxy reaper openings or all-ins always kill me all the time.
God this is so true and I hate it so much. The onus is completely on the terran to scout the protoss opening in the early game. Protoss is now immune to any early game pressure with just a MSC. On the other hand, terrans is even more susceptible to early game shenanigans in HotS thanks to oracles.
On July 22 2013 12:04 c0ldfusion wrote: I have a couple of questions:
1. What's everyone's hotkey setup in TvP against late game protoss army? I keep my vikings and the rest of my army in a separate group. But it seems I need to split out my ghosts as well not sure if it's strictly required though.
2. What's a good defensive set up for holding/discouraging a protoss from moving on your third? Context: the late protoss army is most effective close together for the archon/stalkers to protect vikings from the colossi. Even with a supply lead, I would need vastly better control to beat colossi/archon/storm/zealot/stalker in a straight up fight. So the best way to engage, I find, is to be more drop heavy. I'm finding that even with a planetary and scvs repairing, I can't fend off an army of similar supply count (my addition supply goes to the drop) and I end up losing the base race. Better building positioning and tweaking my army composition may be need I think.
I use 3 control groups for my army, 1 for the main army (marine-marauder-medivac-ghosts), 2 for vikings and 3 for Ghosts. So if I move my army using control group 1 and 2, during that movement the ghosts will spread out a little in the bio-army. In the engagement I try to snipe observers with scan+Vikings and then go in with cloaked ghosts to snipe Templars. It's the most comfortable setup for me as I only use 2 control groups to move all of my army but still have my Ghosts ready for separate control against Templar when I'm getting close to my opponent.
In lategame TvP static defense is not helping much at all, you need to be in position with your army to defend. The only thing I can think off which could help is using Depots in front of your army to funnel Zealots so that they can't all engage at the same time. But I don't think buildings help much at defending in lategame TvP. I only use drops in midgame TvP when the Protoss is spread out on 3 or 4 bases and has not enough gateways/resources to warp-in mass Zealots for defense. I think using drops in lategame TvP is not nearly as useful because of cannons and mass gateways being able to defend any smaller drop and if I spread my army into two big chunks I almost always lose because of not being able to micro against Storm in two different places at once. The way to beat Protoss in lategame TvP is not with multitasking but with big army engagements, sniping Templar with Ghosts, sniping Colossi with Vikings, EMP on everything. I think the lategame Terran army is even with the Toss army and it depends entirely on the micro which player wins. The army composition should be at ~ 8 Medivacs, maximum of 14 Vikings (14 Vikings one-shot a colossus), lots of Ghosts (as many as you can afford), and the rest Marine-Marauder. It also helps a lot to mix in ~8 Hellbats with Blue-Flame if you have the time and resources to afford them.
Cheeses/All-ins vs Toss: the only thing I found working so far is proxy 2 rax on 11 supply. Somehow I'm always able to get a Bunker up in their main ^.^
In principle, do you believe that conservative play in the absence of certainty on the opponents next moves is a winning mentality long term?
There are some clearly obvious situations, like dropping a turret when you scout a twilight and nothing else, but my goal is to create a mental framework for the much more complicated scenarios.
TvZ comes to mind, in that dark period when zerg is not quite on 3 base and has decided to saturate. Assuming I don't scout the roach warren after a scan and frontal poke, is it justifiable to drop 3 bunkers in addition to my original?(1 high ground 2 horizontal and behind the depot wall.)
From experience alone I have been obliterated many times after thinking I was safe(innovations tank before reac/tech swap is not quite enough if he allins)
Another absolute killer I've been dying to ask you is the following:
Protoss executes a 1 base blink play, either with or without observers, and I fortify on highground and take minimal to moderate damage.
1.) Do I burn scans to identify his expansion timing? 2.) Do I risk moving down under any circumstance without medivacs? 3.) Do I use my first medivacs for offense?
I absolutely understand that these questions are situational, however I often lose my edge by not understanding the exact advantages I possess with my build v his, my subsequent timings on the way out of containment, my general game plan if he is able to eek an economic lead based on me scouting his nexus too late and remaining turtled.
Thanks so much, and thanks for your contribution thus far I am willing to help in any way if I can.
On July 22 2013 12:04 c0ldfusion wrote: I have a couple of questions:
1. What's everyone's hotkey setup in TvP against late game protoss army? I keep my vikings and the rest of my army in a separate group. But it seems I need to split out my ghosts as well not sure if it's strictly required though.
2. What's a good defensive set up for holding/discouraging a protoss from moving on your third? Context: the late protoss army is most effective close together for the archon/stalkers to protect vikings from the colossi. Even with a supply lead, I would need vastly better control to beat colossi/archon/storm/zealot/stalker in a straight up fight. So the best way to engage, I find, is to be more drop heavy. I'm finding that even with a planetary and scvs repairing, I can't fend off an army of similar supply count (my addition supply goes to the drop) and I end up losing the base race. Better building positioning and tweaking my army composition may be need I think.
I use 3 control groups for my army, 1 for the main army (marine-marauder-medivac-ghosts), 2 for vikings and 3 for Ghosts. So if I move my army using control group 1 and 2, during that movement the ghosts will spread out a little in the bio-army. In the engagement I try to snipe observers with scan+Vikings and then go in with cloaked ghosts to snipe Templars. It's the most comfortable setup for me as I only use 2 control groups to move all of my army but still have my Ghosts ready for separate control against Templar when I'm getting close to my opponent.
In lategame TvP static defense is not helping much at all, you need to be in position with your army to defend. The only thing I can think off which could help is using Depots in front of your army to funnel Zealots so that they can't all engage at the same time. But I don't think buildings help much at defending in lategame TvP. I only use drops in midgame TvP when the Protoss is spread out on 3 or 4 bases and has not enough gateways/resources to warp-in mass Zealots for defense. I think using drops in lategame TvP is not nearly as useful because of cannons and mass gateways being able to defend any smaller drop and if I spread my army into two big chunks I almost always lose because of not being able to micro against Storm in two different places at once. The way to beat Protoss in lategame TvP is not with multitasking but with big army engagements, sniping Templar with Ghosts, sniping Colossi with Vikings, EMP on everything. I think the lategame Terran army is even with the Toss army and it depends entirely on the micro which player wins. The army composition should be at ~ 8 Medivacs, maximum of 14 Vikings (14 Vikings one-shot a colossus), lots of Ghosts (as many as you can afford), and the rest Marine-Marauder. It also helps a lot to mix in ~8 Hellbats with Blue-Flame if you have the time and resources to afford them.
Cheeses/All-ins vs Toss: the only thing I found working so far is proxy 2 rax on 11 supply. Somehow I'm always able to get a Bunker up in their main ^.^
Thanks for the response. It sounds like I'll need to practice my ghost micro.
Quick follow up question: it's mostly marauders to marines right? How many reactored rax off 3 bases?
On July 21 2013 03:18 TheBaLinOne wrote: Is there any alternative to a fast 3rd CC in TvZ? An aggressive build with a delayed 3rd or something in that direction.
Check out Day9's episode 600. Two replays of flash doing CC first with a very delayed 3rd.
Is walling off by 6 min in TvZ actually beneficial? Besdies Demuslim and Avilo, I don't really see it that often among the top players, definitely not the Koreans. It delays your 3rd CC so much and if they decide to go banelings behind speedlings your supply depot wall doesn't stop anything anyway. But I don't know what the alternative is.
I am talking about maps like Akilon, Newkirk, Whirlwind, Derelict, and Bel'shir of course which requires like 5 supply depots to wall off completely even with the bunker as part of your wall. Neoplanet and Starstation do not require much of a commitment to wall off.
On July 23 2013 07:46 KingofGods wrote: Is walling off by 6 min in TvZ actually beneficial? Besdies Demuslim and Avilo, I don't really see it that often among the top players, definitely not the Koreans. It delays your 3rd CC so much and if they decide to go banelings behind speedlings your supply depot wall doesn't stop anything anyway. But I don't know what the alternative is.
I am talking about maps like Akilon, Newkirk, Whirlwind, Derelict, and Bel'shir of course which requires like 5 supply depots to wall off completely even with the bunker as part of your wall. Neoplanet and Starstation do not require much of a commitment to wall off.
Day9 episode 600, flash does it on either belshir or whirlwind (pretty sure belshir). Swear I've seen others do it, I just can't remember who (forgg perhaps, I've been watching him lately).
Just played 2 TvTs where both opponents went 1 base 2 rax medivacs. I've never seen it before and now I've seen it twice in a row.
Actually no, one was a 1 rax expo into 3 rax starport. When I scanned at the 6:20ish they both looked exactly the same, though I guess I should have recognized the one base had gas and the 1 rax expo had no gas when I scv scouted.
On July 23 2013 01:10 PraY wrote: I would specifically like theDwf to address this,
In principle, do you believe that conservative play in the absence of certainty on the opponents next moves is a winning mentality long term?
There are some clearly obvious situations, like dropping a turret when you scout a twilight and nothing else, but my goal is to create a mental framework for the much more complicated scenarios.
TvZ comes to mind, in that dark period when zerg is not quite on 3 base and has decided to saturate. Assuming I don't scout the roach warren after a scan and frontal poke, is it justifiable to drop 3 bunkers in addition to my original?(1 high ground 2 horizontal and behind the depot wall.)
From experience alone I have been obliterated many times after thinking I was safe(innovations tank before reac/tech swap is not quite enough if he allins)
Another absolute killer I've been dying to ask you is the following:
Protoss executes a 1 base blink play, either with or without observers, and I fortify on highground and take minimal to moderate damage.
1.) Do I burn scans to identify his expansion timing? 2.) Do I risk moving down under any circumstance without medivacs? 3.) Do I use my first medivacs for offense?
I absolutely understand that these questions are situational, however I often lose my edge by not understanding the exact advantages I possess with my build v his, my subsequent timings on the way out of containment, my general game plan if he is able to eek an economic lead based on me scouting his nexus too late and remaining turtled.
Thanks so much, and thanks for your contribution thus far I am willing to help in any way if I can.
I'm not TheDwf but I would like to speak on the subject. I believe that conservative play in the face of uncertainty is a winning mentality long run, although in your DT example I would say that is overreacting. I think saving a scan or making an engineering bay is more economic while still "covering your bases".
In your TvZ example I would like to point out that scanning and making the bunkers is strictly worse than making the bunkers while not scanning. If the bunkers will be made there is no need for the scan, and 3 bunkers is cheaper than 1 scan in the long run.
Although answering your examples I understand that what I said didn't really answer your original question. I think it is best to scout well and sometimes make decisions that are conservative while trying to gear your decisions so that they are mostly to defend the likely events, while not putting you too far behind in the case of the unlikely events.
About your blink all-in questions: (Like you said, it is situational)
1) Something really strong to do is to keep the reaper alive. This allows you to know when he expanded without burning scans and putting yourself behind more economically. You are on 2 mules and 2x SCV production so even if he expands pretty early after blink and 1-2 warp ins you are still in very good shape. Pushing down in a timely manner is the most important thing which brings me to point #2.
2) There are two ways to approach the defense typically. Either with tanks if you went for the quick factory or with bio into medivacs if you went quick engi bay or take guys off gas or something. With the tank version I would start slow creeping down pretty fast maybe with my 3rd tank (depending on reaper scout/scan). With the bio version I would definitely not come down before medivacs as they allow you to tank the stalkers much more.
3) 100% yes. Although you may be wary of a counter attack, medivacs are the key to aggression in this matchup and you will want to keep him honest economy/tech wise.
On July 21 2013 18:48 Yello wrote: yes. In recent games both Flash and Innovation did open with CC first into Hellions and adding 2nd and 3rd Rax before 2nd Depot with a single E-Bay, starting the aggression with the first two Medivacs and then constantly pressuring with marine-medivac-mine reinforcements.
I watched the Vod and innovation got the 2nd depot before getting the rax.
On July 23 2013 07:46 KingofGods wrote: Is walling off by 6 min in TvZ actually beneficial? Besdies Demuslim and Avilo, I don't really see it that often among the top players, definitely not the Koreans. It delays your 3rd CC so much and if they decide to go banelings behind speedlings your supply depot wall doesn't stop anything anyway. But I don't know what the alternative is.
I am talking about maps like Akilon, Newkirk, Whirlwind, Derelict, and Bel'shir of course which requires like 5 supply depots to wall off completely even with the bunker as part of your wall. Neoplanet and Starstation do not require much of a commitment to wall off.
There is quite a few things you've got wrong here. The 6:00-6:10 wall off happens after your 3rd CC and your first 2 hellions are already on the way. It doesn't delay either.
This timing is the time that speed is normally done if the zerg opens speed. It will matter a lot if he just has a lot of lings, and it will still matter quite a bit if he baneling busts as it buys a little time and uses up the banelings instead of them being used on your units.
This wall off is necessary if you don't scout. If you don't scout and you don't build it then you are playing unsafe. If you see players not doing the wall off it may be because they are scouting either by opening reapers or sending an SCV. They may also be playing unsafe to get an advantage but this is not a good standard thing to do.
EPT
