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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On July 17 2013 23:25 LeftY_ wrote:
So with the new cheaper cloak think the good ol 1-1-1 tank banshee all in would be stronger now? 200 gas less required to pull it off than in wol and tanks out range nexus cannon, could be tough getting up bunkers in good positions on certain maps though.
Nexus cannon is 13 range just like siege mode, according to liquipedia. Protoss defense is hard. 
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On July 17 2013 23:16 Whatson wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 21:07 govie wrote:On July 17 2013 20:39 Marathi wrote:On July 17 2013 10:21 halpimcat wrote:On July 16 2013 14:19 halpimcat wrote:
Are there any popular bio-mech TvT builds that aren't more than a few months old? I've been playing with mech around 70% for all matchups but have gotten the itch for good ol' marine-tank again. Timing also couldn't be any better with the hellbat nerf. Preferably something macro-oriented, but not required. Re-iterating my question for visibility and because my next question is related. Is marine-tank really viable anymore in TvT? On every forum I see people talk about the hellbat - even post-nerf - making marine-tank unreliable as they break siege lines so much easier. That you basically have to be much better than a meching opponent to win. I'm not convinced but haven't tried it in a while, is there any truth to this? Generally in TvT you can only play marine/tank vs marine/tank or bio. Vs mech its better to play as mech or pure bio with a handful of tanks defending your bases. Though I think there will be a resurgence in the marine/tank style as more Terran switch back to bio following hellbat need. Though I think the number of mech players will be strong. Mech still better then bio. Buildorders changed thx to patch, so less hellbatdrops in the start and more other harras, but in general it will be mech eventually. Ryung vs major yesterday WCS NA was nice example. Ruyng going biotank against majors mech in first series, loses 2-0. Last series ruyng goes mech aswell and wins 2-0 and qualifies for ro16 wcs na. LOL you mean "perfectly played mech beats perfectly played bio" which has been the same since WoL.
Also bio tank and maybe even airterran is no problem anymore since widowmines+viking. Mech is best in tvt, i have no doubt about it.
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How the hell can i defend such a push with around 20-30 roaches? I really dont get it guys -.- Im pretty much lost in TvZ ...
http://drop.sc/349357
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Well you are obviously at a higher level than me so take what I say with a grain of salt, but by 9:30 he still had no 3rd so it was pretty safe to assume some type of aggression was coming. Scan to see if there is a spire, if no spire than something is coming at the front whether that's banes and / or roaches. If you put 1 scan in main and 1 in natural you would have seen no spire and a bunch of roaches. Either case, bunkers. I wouldn't even bother trying to put down my 3rd until I see the zerg getting his 3rd.
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On July 18 2013 01:11 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 23:16 Whatson wrote:On July 17 2013 21:07 govie wrote:On July 17 2013 20:39 Marathi wrote:On July 17 2013 10:21 halpimcat wrote:On July 16 2013 14:19 halpimcat wrote:
Are there any popular bio-mech TvT builds that aren't more than a few months old? I've been playing with mech around 70% for all matchups but have gotten the itch for good ol' marine-tank again. Timing also couldn't be any better with the hellbat nerf. Preferably something macro-oriented, but not required. Re-iterating my question for visibility and because my next question is related. Is marine-tank really viable anymore in TvT? On every forum I see people talk about the hellbat - even post-nerf - making marine-tank unreliable as they break siege lines so much easier. That you basically have to be much better than a meching opponent to win. I'm not convinced but haven't tried it in a while, is there any truth to this? Generally in TvT you can only play marine/tank vs marine/tank or bio. Vs mech its better to play as mech or pure bio with a handful of tanks defending your bases. Though I think there will be a resurgence in the marine/tank style as more Terran switch back to bio following hellbat need. Though I think the number of mech players will be strong. Mech still better then bio. Buildorders changed thx to patch, so less hellbatdrops in the start and more other harras, but in general it will be mech eventually. Ryung vs major yesterday WCS NA was nice example. Ruyng going biotank against majors mech in first series, loses 2-0. Last series ruyng goes mech aswell and wins 2-0 and qualifies for ro16 wcs na. LOL you mean "perfectly played mech beats perfectly played bio" which has been the same since WoL. Also bio tank and maybe even airterran is no problem anymore since widowmines+viking. Mech is best in tvt, i have no doubt about it.
Maybe it is, but why is mech so much stronger? Does the introduction of the hellbat really make that much of a difference? Pre-patch, before I switched to mech, the only reason hellbats seemed so strong was because their drops to hit your econ came so fast; but if I sustained a good economy I didn't think they were that ridiculous. In WoL I played bio/mech 90% of the time, and mech never bothered me; TvT was my best matchup.
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Hellbats can tank tank shots better than hellions ever could in WoL.
If you are sieged up you can actually hold a position with less tanks (something a bio / mech player usually has compared to the mech player). Now tanks and hellbats can push in on positions where the bio / mech player is weak.
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Hellbats have quite a bit of HP, and they are light -> they tank a ton of hellbat shots.
They also have quite high short range splash damage. Drop them on top of the enemies army, and they tank quite some tank damage, which do friendly splash, and they deal alot of damage. Also since only 2 hellbats fit in a medivac they are unloaded quickly.
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Just curious, but has anyone (pro) tried opening cloakshee in tvp and had success with it?
If yes, could you link me to a vod or replay.
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On July 18 2013 09:26 halpimcat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2013 01:11 govie wrote:On July 17 2013 23:16 Whatson wrote:On July 17 2013 21:07 govie wrote:On July 17 2013 20:39 Marathi wrote:On July 17 2013 10:21 halpimcat wrote:On July 16 2013 14:19 halpimcat wrote:
Are there any popular bio-mech TvT builds that aren't more than a few months old? I've been playing with mech around 70% for all matchups but have gotten the itch for good ol' marine-tank again. Timing also couldn't be any better with the hellbat nerf. Preferably something macro-oriented, but not required. Re-iterating my question for visibility and because my next question is related. Is marine-tank really viable anymore in TvT? On every forum I see people talk about the hellbat - even post-nerf - making marine-tank unreliable as they break siege lines so much easier. That you basically have to be much better than a meching opponent to win. I'm not convinced but haven't tried it in a while, is there any truth to this? Generally in TvT you can only play marine/tank vs marine/tank or bio. Vs mech its better to play as mech or pure bio with a handful of tanks defending your bases. Though I think there will be a resurgence in the marine/tank style as more Terran switch back to bio following hellbat need. Though I think the number of mech players will be strong. Mech still better then bio. Buildorders changed thx to patch, so less hellbatdrops in the start and more other harras, but in general it will be mech eventually. Ryung vs major yesterday WCS NA was nice example. Ruyng going biotank against majors mech in first series, loses 2-0. Last series ruyng goes mech aswell and wins 2-0 and qualifies for ro16 wcs na. LOL you mean "perfectly played mech beats perfectly played bio" which has been the same since WoL. Also bio tank and maybe even airterran is no problem anymore since widowmines+viking. Mech is best in tvt, i have no doubt about it. Maybe it is, but why is mech so much stronger? Does the introduction of the hellbat really make that much of a difference? Pre-patch, before I switched to mech, the only reason hellbats seemed so strong was because their drops to hit your econ came so fast; but if I sustained a good economy I didn't think they were that ridiculous. In WoL I played bio/mech 90% of the time, and mech never bothered me; TvT was my best matchup.
To be honest. Blizzard made the choice mech/bio/biotank in tvt for us. Mech midgame is best option in tvt. Reasons :
1. Hellbat is chunky, has nice AOE, doesnt cost gas (which i find strange). Hellions is better with good micro but in late game, the chunkyness of the hellbat is more important;
2. Widowmine is a nice unit, has nice AOE, ca shoot up and doesnt cost much gas;
3. Tank doesnt have siege upgrade anymore, has nice AOE, costs less gas early.
4. Because u play mech u will have aircontrol against any bio or biotank opening. It means your tankrange is better then your opponents tankrange and alot medivacs will die;
5. Drops of your opponent will have less succes.
Im not not saying bio or biotank is undoable against mech. But seeing the pro's going for mech, it says basically everything. When equally skilled mech > bio/biotank and even airterran is stoppable nowadays. That last remark i dont like. Blizzard should give us some easier counter against mech because widowmines can reck airterran if played right.
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On July 18 2013 16:09 ironpiggy wrote:
Just curious, but has anyone (pro) tried opening cloakshee in tvp and had success with it?
If yes, could you link me to a vod or replay.
Avilo does it quite consistently. Dunno if you consider him pro or not though.
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On July 18 2013 17:10 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2013 09:26 halpimcat wrote:On July 18 2013 01:11 govie wrote:On July 17 2013 23:16 Whatson wrote:On July 17 2013 21:07 govie wrote:On July 17 2013 20:39 Marathi wrote:On July 17 2013 10:21 halpimcat wrote:On July 16 2013 14:19 halpimcat wrote:
Are there any popular bio-mech TvT builds that aren't more than a few months old? I've been playing with mech around 70% for all matchups but have gotten the itch for good ol' marine-tank again. Timing also couldn't be any better with the hellbat nerf. Preferably something macro-oriented, but not required. Re-iterating my question for visibility and because my next question is related. Is marine-tank really viable anymore in TvT? On every forum I see people talk about the hellbat - even post-nerf - making marine-tank unreliable as they break siege lines so much easier. That you basically have to be much better than a meching opponent to win. I'm not convinced but haven't tried it in a while, is there any truth to this? Generally in TvT you can only play marine/tank vs marine/tank or bio. Vs mech its better to play as mech or pure bio with a handful of tanks defending your bases. Though I think there will be a resurgence in the marine/tank style as more Terran switch back to bio following hellbat need. Though I think the number of mech players will be strong. Mech still better then bio. Buildorders changed thx to patch, so less hellbatdrops in the start and more other harras, but in general it will be mech eventually. Ryung vs major yesterday WCS NA was nice example. Ruyng going biotank against majors mech in first series, loses 2-0. Last series ruyng goes mech aswell and wins 2-0 and qualifies for ro16 wcs na. LOL you mean "perfectly played mech beats perfectly played bio" which has been the same since WoL. Also bio tank and maybe even airterran is no problem anymore since widowmines+viking. Mech is best in tvt, i have no doubt about it. Maybe it is, but why is mech so much stronger? Does the introduction of the hellbat really make that much of a difference? Pre-patch, before I switched to mech, the only reason hellbats seemed so strong was because their drops to hit your econ came so fast; but if I sustained a good economy I didn't think they were that ridiculous. In WoL I played bio/mech 90% of the time, and mech never bothered me; TvT was my best matchup. To be honest. Blizzard made the choice mech/bio/biotank in tvt for us. Mech midgame is best option in tvt. Reasons : 1. Hellbat is chunky, has nice AOE, doesnt cost gas (which i find strange). Hellions is better with good micro but in late game, the chunkyness of the hellbat is more important; 2. Widowmine is a nice unit, has nice AOE, ca shoot up and doesnt cost much gas; 3. Tank doesnt have siege upgrade anymore, has nice AOE, costs less gas early. 4. Because u play mech u will have aircontrol against any bio or biotank opening. It means your tankrange is better then your opponents tankrange and alot medivacs will die; 5. Drops of your opponent will have less succes. Im not not saying bio or biotank is undoable against mech. But seeing the pro's going for mech, it says basically everything. When equally skilled mech > bio/biotank and even airterran is stoppable nowadays. That last remark i dont like. Blizzard should give us some counter against mech because widowmines can reck airterran if played right.
That makes me sad. Marine/tank, especially in TvT, used to be my favorite thing about SC2. I'll give it a go anyways, since I play more for fun now than to be super competitive. I hope Blizzard does something to bring it back though.
Unrelated question. When do you know it's safe to take your third expo in TvZ? I go for the fast 3CC build usually, but end up keeping the last CC in my main for way longer than I feel necessary. What's a standard time to take it and what are the signs to look out for to know it's safe to take it?
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On July 18 2013 17:22 halpimcat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2013 17:10 govie wrote:On July 18 2013 09:26 halpimcat wrote:On July 18 2013 01:11 govie wrote:On July 17 2013 23:16 Whatson wrote:On July 17 2013 21:07 govie wrote:On July 17 2013 20:39 Marathi wrote:On July 17 2013 10:21 halpimcat wrote:On July 16 2013 14:19 halpimcat wrote:
Are there any popular bio-mech TvT builds that aren't more than a few months old? I've been playing with mech around 70% for all matchups but have gotten the itch for good ol' marine-tank again. Timing also couldn't be any better with the hellbat nerf. Preferably something macro-oriented, but not required. Re-iterating my question for visibility and because my next question is related. Is marine-tank really viable anymore in TvT? On every forum I see people talk about the hellbat - even post-nerf - making marine-tank unreliable as they break siege lines so much easier. That you basically have to be much better than a meching opponent to win. I'm not convinced but haven't tried it in a while, is there any truth to this? Generally in TvT you can only play marine/tank vs marine/tank or bio. Vs mech its better to play as mech or pure bio with a handful of tanks defending your bases. Though I think there will be a resurgence in the marine/tank style as more Terran switch back to bio following hellbat need. Though I think the number of mech players will be strong. Mech still better then bio. Buildorders changed thx to patch, so less hellbatdrops in the start and more other harras, but in general it will be mech eventually. Ryung vs major yesterday WCS NA was nice example. Ruyng going biotank against majors mech in first series, loses 2-0. Last series ruyng goes mech aswell and wins 2-0 and qualifies for ro16 wcs na. LOL you mean "perfectly played mech beats perfectly played bio" which has been the same since WoL. Also bio tank and maybe even airterran is no problem anymore since widowmines+viking. Mech is best in tvt, i have no doubt about it. Maybe it is, but why is mech so much stronger? Does the introduction of the hellbat really make that much of a difference? Pre-patch, before I switched to mech, the only reason hellbats seemed so strong was because their drops to hit your econ came so fast; but if I sustained a good economy I didn't think they were that ridiculous. In WoL I played bio/mech 90% of the time, and mech never bothered me; TvT was my best matchup. To be honest. Blizzard made the choice mech/bio/biotank in tvt for us. Mech midgame is best option in tvt. Reasons : 1. Hellbat is chunky, has nice AOE, doesnt cost gas (which i find strange). Hellions is better with good micro but in late game, the chunkyness of the hellbat is more important; 2. Widowmine is a nice unit, has nice AOE, ca shoot up and doesnt cost much gas; 3. Tank doesnt have siege upgrade anymore, has nice AOE, costs less gas early. 4. Because u play mech u will have aircontrol against any bio or biotank opening. It means your tankrange is better then your opponents tankrange and alot medivacs will die; 5. Drops of your opponent will have less succes. Im not not saying bio or biotank is undoable against mech. But seeing the pro's going for mech, it says basically everything. When equally skilled mech > bio/biotank and even airterran is stoppable nowadays. That last remark i dont like. Blizzard should give us some counter against mech because widowmines can reck airterran if played right. That makes me sad. Marine/tank, especially in TvT, used to be my favorite thing about SC2. I'll give it a go anyways, since I play more for fun now than to be super competitive. I hope Blizzard does something to bring it back though. Unrelated question. When do you know it's safe to take your third expo in TvZ? I go for the fast 3CC build usually, but end up keeping the last CC in my main for way longer than I feel necessary. What's a standard time to take it and what are the signs to look out for to know it's safe to take it?
Most eco efficient time would be at 44 scv's gathering stuff --> take 3rd. Thats about 50 scv's in total because some are building stuff. Before 44 (16,16, 3, 3, 3, 3) scv's gathering stuff, it makes no sence to take a third earlier, only more ground to cover = more risk. Depending on the map, ur gasneeds, how much damage u dealt, damage u have taken, what u have scouted, it can vary. But most efficient would be when 44 scv's are gathering stuff at both bases and i believe that should be ur initial target for taking a third (if your BO/strat/gasneeds allows it).
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On July 18 2013 04:32 TheBaLinOne wrote:How the hell can i defend such a push with around 20-30 roaches? I really dont get it guys -.- Im pretty much lost in TvZ ... http://drop.sc/349357
Things to note, CC before 2nd depot gets you better econ and isn't really much of a risk, you have a reaper making and if it's a 6pool you can wall off / kite the lings with the reaper.
With the reapers if you are not harassing you want them parked at his untaken expansions, if neither is taken before 7 mins he's doing some kind of tech build or all in, in which case scan, sac reapers to get in the main or see his army comp if your scan sees nothing and start bunkering up. You can hold that allin with scv surround on bunkers, with 2-3 bunkers in reserve.
Also your hellions / reapers don't really stop much creep spread at all, you lose 2 hellions fighting queens and lings.
You have no clue about his 3rd and it doesn't get taken till 9.30, a small sac of a reaper up into the nat would have spotted the roaches, as would a scan.
Honestly his attack could of been much stronger, the 1/1 Roach timing should hit around the same time, the speed roach speed bling bust a minute later is even stronger.
Once you scout this kind of attack you need to pump marauders, get some extra bunkers and be prepared to lift off your 3rd and sometimes even the nat if you feel like you need to, with 3cc and the better income you have you can take a small eco hit if you hold this off as he basically has no tech behind it, you can drop the shit out of them and laugh if you hold it well.
Hope this helps.
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@KingofGods and Rockafella: yea, im sure i could have scouted that there is no 3rd in construction or just scan his main, thx guys!
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I've personally started developing a new playstyle around a Strong Bio / Mine play with Ravens at about 15-17 mins. It is micro intensive so its not for the Feint of heart. Using mines as a Map control while you drop and control lanes for your bio to get good surrounds and splits against tanks . Obviously though this strategy only works on maps that are more open and has to be played extremely aggressive with good macro to see amazing results. My Success rate is pretty high right now in Dia / Masters. At about 15-17 mins your ravens start spamming HSM on the tanks but you need 4 bases to efficiently do this and ofcourse with this styleyou have to be aggressive with expansions anyways because its Bio vs Mech or Marine tank and you have the mobility adv.
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Is there a TvX cheese, to kill the other guy fast?
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2 rax / 8-8-8 / proxy marauder but ofcourse these are not guaranteed its all about micro and how much you commit.....
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2 rax is 11/11 or something like that? i build my 1° depot then throw 2 raxes near his base?
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On July 19 2013 10:44 Requiem- wrote:
2 rax is 11/11 or something like that? i build my 1° depot then throw 2 raxes near his base?
Yes. Pull 2 scvs off your mineral line at 10 supply, 1 to build a depot at your ramp and another to send across the map and make your first barracks. Your 11th scv will be rallied outside to build the 2nd rax. Resume scv production after you start building your second rax.
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On July 19 2013 10:08 Requiem- wrote:
Is there a TvX cheese, to kill the other guy fast?
vs Protoss, consensus seems to be, not really. I think there are some vs zerg but I have never done it. For vs Terran there are a lot. I have had great success with the proxy thor drop:
http://www.gosubuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvt/tvt-proxy-thor-drop/
I also like widow mine / marines into cloakshees, obviously straight cloakshee openings are popular now with the recent buff.
And reaper / proxy reaper openings or all-ins always kill me all the time.
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EPT
